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LongBeachPoly
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 Posted: Mon Jul 22, 2019 8:17 pm Post subject: |
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| ExPatLkrFan wrote: | | Concerning the relief pitching and specifically the closer issue is the real problem is that no matter who you get as additional relief help, when it comes to closing, as long as Jansen is on the staff he is closing. Roberts and I am assuming the front office is going to ride with their guy especially with his price tag. The front office wants the guy they are paying 18 million to close. Roberts will continue to do so as long as he is on the roster. |
I think if Jansen's ERA ever rose to 4.50+, I think he'd lose his job.
Or if he blows like 3 straight games, he'll lose his job. |
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LongBeachPoly
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| Posted: Tue Jul 23, 2019 6:16 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | Astros rookie Alvarez sets record with 35th RBI
Houston Astros rookie slugger Yordan Alvarez homered and knocked in a pair of runs Monday in an 11-1 win over the Oakland A's, making him the first player to have 35 RBIs in his first 30 career games since runs batted in became an official statistic in 1920.
Alvarez, 22, passed Albert Pujols, who had 34 RBIs in his first 30 games with the St. Louis Cardinals in 2001.
The left-handed slugger from Cuba is hitting .342 with 11 home runs and 35 RBIs since he made his major league debut with the Astros on June 9. At the time, he was tearing up the Pacific Coast League, with 23 home runs and 71 RBIs in 56 games.
https://www.espn.com/mlb/story/_/id/27241437/astros-rookie-alvarez-sets-record-35th-rbi |
| Quote: | Former Astros Official Believes Team ‘Twice’ Won Yordan Alvarez For Josh Fields Trade With Dodgers
During his two full seasons in Los Angeles, Fields recorded a solid 2.57 ERA and 0.96 WHIP.
Fields struggled in October when he did get a chance in the playoffs. Most notably, he allowed two home runs against the Astros in the 10th inning of Game 2 of the 2017 World Series, which Houston eventually won.
“We actually won that trade twice,” one former Astros official said.
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| Quote: | How the Houston Astros nabbed slugger Yordan Alvarez from the Dodgers
Reporting from houston — The request reached Farhan Zaidi, then the general manager of the Dodgers, in the frenetic hours before the trade deadline Aug. 1, 2016.
“What about Alvarez, the Cuban?” Houston Astros general manager Jeff Luhnow said.
Luhnow had been haggling with several clubs over the return for Astros reliever Josh Fields, a pitcher teams coveted despite his near 7.00 earned-run average. The Dodgers had already rejected requests for “several players” in return and the two sides stood at “an impasse,” Luhnow said.
Then Luhnow recalled a prospect who had entranced one of his scouts that year. So he asked about Alvarez.
The answer from Zaidi was swift: No, the Dodgers would not trade Yadier Alvarez.
The misunderstanding adds a punchline to what may become one of the most lopsided trades in recent baseball memory because Luhnow was not trying to acquire Yadier Alvarez, a Cuban pitcher signed by the Dodgers for $16 million in 2015 who has a 14.73 ERA in the minors in 2019.
He sought Yordan Alvarez, a lightly touted, teenage position player with questionable power, a relative unknown who has developed into one of the sport’s most promising young sluggers and a fixture in Houston’s lineup.
“Looking back on it now,” Friedman said recently with a rueful smile earlier, “we obviously wish we would have said yes to other names they asked for before him. It’s pretty special watching what he’s doing in the batter’s box.”
Friedman stressed that he enjoyed watching Alvarez succeed in the majors. The uniqueness of the situation provided him some peace.
“It’s one of those circumstances that I can’t ever see playing out again,” Friedman said. “There are times when we’ll go back and review something and try to learn from it. This, I’m not sure that anything we learned from it will be applicable to things going forward.”
https://www.latimes.com/sports/dodgers/la-sp-yordan-alvarez-dodgers-cuban-signings-mistakes-astros-20190706-story.html |
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ribeye
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| Posted: Tue Jul 23, 2019 6:17 am Post subject: |
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| LongBeachPoly wrote: | | Quote: | Astros rookie Alvarez sets record with 35th RBI
Houston Astros rookie slugger Yordan Alvarez homered and knocked in a pair of runs Monday in an 11-1 win over the Oakland A's, making him the first player to have 35 RBIs in his first 30 career games since runs batted in became an official statistic in 1920.
Alvarez, 22, passed Albert Pujols, who had 34 RBIs in his first 30 games with the St. Louis Cardinals in 2001.
The left-handed slugger from Cuba is hitting .342 with 11 home runs and 35 RBIs since he made his major league debut with the Astros on June 9. At the time, he was tearing up the Pacific Coast League, with 23 home runs and 71 RBIs in 56 games.
https://www.espn.com/mlb/story/_/id/27241437/astros-rookie-alvarez-sets-record-35th-rbi |
| Quote: | Former Astros Official Believes Team ‘Twice’ Won Yordan Alvarez For Josh Fields Trade With Dodgers
During his two full seasons in Los Angeles, Fields recorded a solid 2.57 ERA and 0.96 WHIP.
Fields struggled in October when he did get a chance in the playoffs. Most notably, he allowed two home runs against the Astros in the 10th inning of Game 2 of the 2017 World Series, which Houston eventually won.
“We actually won that trade twice,” one former Astros official said.
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| Quote: | How the Houston Astros nabbed slugger Yordan Alvarez from the Dodgers
Reporting from houston — The request reached Farhan Zaidi, then the general manager of the Dodgers, in the frenetic hours before the trade deadline Aug. 1, 2016.
“What about Alvarez, the Cuban?” Houston Astros general manager Jeff Luhnow said.
Luhnow had been haggling with several clubs over the return for Astros reliever Josh Fields, a pitcher teams coveted despite his near 7.00 earned-run average. The Dodgers had already rejected requests for “several players” in return and the two sides stood at “an impasse,” Luhnow said.
Then Luhnow recalled a prospect who had entranced one of his scouts that year. So he asked about Alvarez.
The answer from Zaidi was swift: No, the Dodgers would not trade Yadier Alvarez.
The misunderstanding adds a punchline to what may become one of the most lopsided trades in recent baseball memory because Luhnow was not trying to acquire Yadier Alvarez, a Cuban pitcher signed by the Dodgers for $16 million in 2015 who has a 14.73 ERA in the minors in 2019.
He sought Yordan Alvarez, a lightly touted, teenage position player with questionable power, a relative unknown who has developed into one of the sport’s most promising young sluggers and a fixture in Houston’s lineup.
“Looking back on it now,” Friedman said recently with a rueful smile earlier, “we obviously wish we would have said yes to other names they asked for before him. It’s pretty special watching what he’s doing in the batter’s box.”
Friedman stressed that he enjoyed watching Alvarez succeed in the majors. The uniqueness of the situation provided him some peace.
“It’s one of those circumstances that I can’t ever see playing out again,” Friedman said. “There are times when we’ll go back and review something and try to learn from it. This, I’m not sure that anything we learned from it will be applicable to things going forward.”
https://www.latimes.com/sports/dodgers/la-sp-yordan-alvarez-dodgers-cuban-signings-mistakes-astros-20190706-story.html |
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LongBeachPoly
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| Posted: Tue Jul 23, 2019 6:29 am Post subject: |
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Stat of the day: we have the no. 1 team ERA in all of MLB. How dominant have our starters been considering our bullpen woes?
1) Dodgers - 3.34
2) Tampa Bay - 3.46
3) Houston - 3.83
4) Cleveland - 3.83
5) Cincinnati - 3.90
6) Minnesota - 3.97
7) Yankees - 4.01
8) Oakland - 4.06
9) Cubs - 4.08
10) St. Louis - 4.09
11) Atlanta - 4.25
14) Giants - 4.40
17) Milwaukee - 4.60
19) Boston - 4.68
20) Phillies - 4.70
22) Angels - 4.90
26) Texas - 5.07
29) Colorado - 5.52 |
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ribeye
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| Posted: Tue Jul 23, 2019 6:40 am Post subject: |
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I'd say about this dominant
1 LA Dodgers 2.95
2 Tampa Bay 3.18
3 Washington 3.53
4 Cincinnati 3.70
5 Minnesota 3.75
6 Houston 3.87
7 Chicago Cubs 3.98
8 Miami 4.11
9 Cleveland 4.14
10 Arizona 4.15
11 Oakland 4.17
12 St. Louis 4.2
13 NY Yankees 4.26
14 NY Mets 4.33
15 Atlanta 4.49
16 San Diego 4.50
17 Philadelphia 4.57
18 Milwaukee 4.71
19 Boston 4.73
20 San Francisco 4.77
21 Pittsburgh 4.92
22 Kansas City 5.12
23 Texas 5.20
24 Detroit 5.25
25 LA Angels 5.34
26 Baltimore 5.40
27 Chicago Sox 5.41
28 Seattle 5.43
29 Toronto 5.44
30 Colorado 5.90
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LongBeachPoly
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| Posted: Tue Jul 23, 2019 7:03 am Post subject: |
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| ribeye wrote: | I'd say about this dominant
1 LA Dodgers 2.95
2 Tampa Bay 3.18
3 Washington 3.53
4 Cincinnati 3.70
5 Minnesota 3.75
6 Houston 3.87
7 Chicago Cubs 3.98
8 Miami 4.11
9 Cleveland 4.14
10 Arizona 4.15
11 Oakland 4.17
12 St. Louis 4.2
13 NY Yankees 4.26
14 NY Mets 4.33
15 Atlanta 4.49
16 San Diego 4.50
17 Philadelphia 4.57
18 Milwaukee 4.71
19 Boston 4.73
20 San Francisco 4.77
21 Pittsburgh 4.92
22 Kansas City 5.12
23 Texas 5.20
24 Detroit 5.25
25 LA Angels 5.34
26 Baltimore 5.40
27 Chicago Sox 5.41
28 Seattle 5.43
29 Toronto 5.44
30 Colorado 5.90 |
Yeah, we know what we have to do in the playoffs. We have to get a lead vs. the starters. I guess I'll be rooting for the Yankees to make the WS with their 4.26 starter ERA. |
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ribeye
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| Posted: Tue Jul 23, 2019 7:10 am Post subject: |
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| LongBeachPoly wrote: | | ribeye wrote: | I'd say about this dominant
1 LA Dodgers 2.95
2 Tampa Bay 3.18
3 Washington 3.53
4 Cincinnati 3.70
5 Minnesota 3.75
6 Houston 3.87
7 Chicago Cubs 3.98
8 Miami 4.11
9 Cleveland 4.14
10 Arizona 4.15
11 Oakland 4.17
12 St. Louis 4.2
13 NY Yankees 4.26
14 NY Mets 4.33
15 Atlanta 4.49
16 San Diego 4.50
17 Philadelphia 4.57
18 Milwaukee 4.71
19 Boston 4.73
20 San Francisco 4.77
21 Pittsburgh 4.92
22 Kansas City 5.12
23 Texas 5.20
24 Detroit 5.25
25 LA Angels 5.34
26 Baltimore 5.40
27 Chicago Sox 5.41
28 Seattle 5.43
29 Toronto 5.44
30 Colorado 5.90 |
Yeah, we know what we have to do in the playoffs. We have to get a lead vs. the starters. I guess I'll be rooting for the Yankees to make the WS with their 4.26 starter ERA. |
Yep. As we just saw, a 6 run lead might not be enough.
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ribeye
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| Posted: Tue Jul 23, 2019 7:20 am Post subject: |
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Is the ball juiced? Is the president a Republican?
Though the steroid era is not clearly defined, I chose the years that had a sizable differential from the past or future years.
Year . RPG (runs per game)
2019 4.83
2010 4.38 (not averaged)
2009 4.61
2008 4.65
2007 4.80
2006 4.86
2005 4.59
2004 4.81
2003 4.73
2002 4.62
2001 4.78
2000 5.14
1999 5.08
1998 4.79
1997 4.77
1996 5.04
1995 4.85
1994 4.92
1993 4.60
1992 4.12 (not averaged)
Average 4.80
(93-09)
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LAkers 4 Life
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| Posted: Tue Jul 23, 2019 9:12 am Post subject: |
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| LongBeachPoly wrote: | | ExPatLkrFan wrote: | | Concerning the relief pitching and specifically the closer issue is the real problem is that no matter who you get as additional relief help, when it comes to closing, as long as Jansen is on the staff he is closing. Roberts and I am assuming the front office is going to ride with their guy especially with his price tag. The front office wants the guy they are paying 18 million to close. Roberts will continue to do so as long as he is on the roster. |
I think if Jansen's ERA ever rose to 4.50+, I think he'd lose his job.
Or if he blows like 3 straight games, he'll lose his job. |
He should lose his job, but with managers you just never know. Heck, A. J. Hinch kept sticking with Ken Giles as his closer through their 2017 run even when it was obvious he didn't have it until he was practically forced to not use him. He was the one guy coming out of the bullpen that I wasn't worried about in the World Series. Too bad the Dodgers still lost. |
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LongBeachPoly
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| Posted: Tue Jul 23, 2019 9:32 am Post subject: |
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| LAkers 4 Life wrote: | | LongBeachPoly wrote: | | ExPatLkrFan wrote: | | Concerning the relief pitching and specifically the closer issue is the real problem is that no matter who you get as additional relief help, when it comes to closing, as long as Jansen is on the staff he is closing. Roberts and I am assuming the front office is going to ride with their guy especially with his price tag. The front office wants the guy they are paying 18 million to close. Roberts will continue to do so as long as he is on the roster. |
I think if Jansen's ERA ever rose to 4.50+, I think he'd lose his job.
Or if he blows like 3 straight games, he'll lose his job. |
He should lose his job, but with managers you just never know. Heck, A. J. Hinch kept sticking with Ken Giles as his closer through their 2017 run even when it was obvious he didn't have it until he was practically forced to not use him. He was the one guy coming out of the bullpen that I wasn't worried about in the World Series. Too bad the Dodgers still lost. |
Yeah, and I'd say the difference is, it's hard to lose your job in the middle of a playoff run.
Giles going into the playoffs that year had a 2.30 ERA. Same thing with Craig Kimbrel. He had a 2.74 ERA during the reg season. Not high enough to lose his job. It was also the same with Jeffries of Milwaukee. Great regular season last year, horrible playoffs. But Milwaukee stuck with him.
If Giles went into the playoffs sporting a 4.50+ ERA, it'd be easier for him to lose his job.
I think if there's ever going to be a change, managers want to make it before the playoffs not during the playoffs.
If you think about it, Jansen's one bad outing away from being a 4.50+ ERA closer. Last time he had a bad outing, his ERA jumped from 3.05 to 3.72. Another one and it'll jump to 4.50+
And I think if Jansen finishes the year with a 4.50+ ERA, he might/should/hopefully will lose his job for the playoffs. That's my feeling.
I think Baez would be the closer.
The question is, if Jansen lost his job, what would his role be? I don't think you want a 4.50+ ERA as your main setup guy either. Would Jansen fall to mopup duty?
Last edited by LongBeachPoly on Tue Jul 23, 2019 9:41 am; edited 1 time in total |
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ribeye
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| Posted: Tue Jul 23, 2019 9:41 am Post subject: |
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| LongBeachPoly wrote: |
I think Baez would be the closer. |
Let's pray to whom or whatever one prays to that he doesn't assume that role.
| Code: | Year SVOpp SV BSv SV%
2014 0 0 0
2015 3 0 3 0%
2016 2 0 2 0%
2017 3 0 3 0%
2018 2 0 2 0%
2019 5 0 5 0%
6 Yrs 15 0 15 0% |
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LongBeachPoly
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| Posted: Tue Jul 23, 2019 9:56 am Post subject: |
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| ribeye wrote: | | LongBeachPoly wrote: |
I think Baez would be the closer. |
Let's pray to whom or whatever one prays to that he doesn't assume that role.
| Code: | Year SVOpp SV BSv SV%
2014 0 0 0
2015 3 0 3 0%
2016 2 0 2 0%
2017 3 0 3 0%
2018 2 0 2 0%
2019 5 0 5 0%
6 Yrs 15 0 15 0% |
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How misleading a stat is blown save opportunities for middle relievers?
Can they ever get a save?
They can only blow a save, they can't ever get a save. Basically, it's either a hold or a blown save for them. They'll never get the save.
So, yeah, you can say he's 0 for 15, but how many times was he put into position to actually get the save? All 5 of his blown saves came in the 8th inning or earlier. He was never pitching the 9th to actually get the save. If he does his job, it's a hold. If he doesn't do his job, it's a blown save opportunity. Sometimes, even when he does his job, he's still credited with a blown save. But, he'll never actually get the save. All those opportunities go to Jansen.
Last 3 blown saves for him:
1) Jul 14 - gave up 2 runs to Boston in the 8th. If he doesn't give up the runs, who comes in the 9th to get the save opportunity? Jansen? Yet, that's counted as a save opportunity for Baez.
2) Jul 17 - vs. Phila. He came in the 6th inning, pitched 1.2 ip, gave up no runs. He actually came in when the Dodgers were in trouble. Bases loaded, 1 out. Dodgers up 2-1.
He got a ground out, which scored a run, and a strikeout to end the inning. I thought that was great work. You know what the stats show? Blown save opportunity - his 4th this year. How is coming into the 6th inning a save opportunity? When's the last time a pitcher got a save coming into the 6th inning?
3) Jul 20 - vs. Marlins. Score 6-4 in the 8th inning. Bases loaded, 1 out. Baez comes in. Gets a groundout to Kike who makes a throwing error. 2 runs scored. He gets another groundout.
Looks like he did his job. Well, another blown save for Baez for not getting out of a bases loaded 1 out situation.
Who comes in the 9th to get the save? Jansen.
Yeah, these 15 blown save opportunities for Baez w/ no saves is a bit misleading.
Yeah, he's 0 for 15 but probably the best he could have done is go 0/0.
How many times in his career has he pitched in the 9th to have the chance at getting an actual save? |
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ribeye
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| Posted: Tue Jul 23, 2019 10:21 am Post subject: |
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Fair enough. So, let's look at his holds this year, and holds are, at least in my opinion, typically of a lesser stress situation since there is at least an inning to come, to recover from a bad inning.
Baez, this year, has 16 holds and 5 blown doing his job's, or whatever you will be comfortable calling them's. That would be 76% success rate.
I'm still not jumping up and down in anticipation. In fact, if Baez were the closer, we might as well say we are giving up.
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LongBeachPoly
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| Posted: Tue Jul 23, 2019 10:23 am Post subject: |
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| ribeye wrote: | Fair enough. So, let's look at his holds this year, and holds are, at least in my opinion, typically of a lesser stress situation since there is at least an inning to come, to recover from a bad inning.
Baez, this year, has 16 holds and 5 blown doing his job's, or whatever you will be comfortable calling them's. That would be 76% success rate.
I'm still not jumping up and down in anticipation. In fact, if Baez were the closer, we might as well say we are giving up. |
Yeah, but the last 2, what are the expectations?
Bases loaded, 1 out.
What are the actual expectations? He came in and got 2 outs in both situations. And he got 2 blown saves for it.
Somehow, it doesn't seem fair if you come in and get outs, that it reflects negatively on your stats. That just doesn't seem fair.
At least Jansen gets to come into a clean inning most of the time.
| Quote: | | I'm still not jumping up and down in anticipation. In fact, if Baez were the closer, we might as well say we are giving up. |
Remember, the premise is if Jansen finishes the year with a 4.50+ ERA. So your options would be Jansen, Baez or someone else.
You'd honestly feel that uncomfortable with Baez coming into a clean inning? I think the fairest way to evaluate Baez is to look at all the clean innings he's come into this year and see how he's done. That's basically how we're using Jansen this year. |
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ribeye
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| Posted: Tue Jul 23, 2019 10:51 am Post subject: |
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Game 98: He received a blown save because a run scored that tied the game. That is how holds and saves (and wins and losses) work--sometimes an error is a factor. I will add that the run scored on a p-ss-1st force at second. Why he choose to not go home, is something I can't comment on except that he did not.
Game 101: Similar situation, but this time two runs scored to tie the game after he came in, with one coming from an error.
I think your beef with these two games should be how we award holds or saves or blown saves or blown "whatevers," but all pitchers, especially those in hold/save situations, are subject to breaks or errors that affect stats. In game 97, had Pollock made a decent jump on the ball hit to shallow center, he likely would have caught it, instead of it falling in between him and the second baseman. He did not. Had the next batter not hit a seeing-eye ground ball between 1st and 2nd, the game would have been over.
That's baseball.
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LongBeachPoly
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| Posted: Tue Jul 23, 2019 11:01 am Post subject: |
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| ribeye wrote: | Game 98: He received a blown save because a run scored that tied the game. That is how holds and saves (and wins and losses) work--sometimes an error is a factor. I will add that the run scored on a p-ss-1st force at second. Why he choose to not go home, is something I can't comment on except that he did not.
Game 101: Similar situation, but this time two runs scored to tie the game after he came in, with one coming from an error.
I think your beef with these two games should be how we award holds or saves or blown saves or blown "whatevers," but all pitchers, especially those in hold/save situations, are subject to breaks or errors that affect stats. In game 97, had Pollock made a decent jump on the ball hit to shallow center, he likely would have caught it, instead of it falling in between him and the second baseman. He did not. Had the next batter not hit a seeing-eye ground ball between 1st and 2nd, the game would have been over.
That's baseball. |
It is baseball, but we are not beholden to the pure black and white stats.
The first stat, that he is 0 for 15 in save opportunities in his career is entirely misleading.
The 2nd stat, that he's actually blown 5 save opportunities this yr, is also misleading.
We're trying to evaluate how Baez would do in the closer's role. A closer is rarely going to come into a situation with runners on base. A closer is going to come into a clean inning. You have less of a chance to blow a save in a clean inning than you do coming into a game with the bases loaded and 1 out.
So, my proposition is to evaluate Baez when coming into clean innings. It's just a suggestion.
We really don't know how he would do in the closer's role until we put him in the closer's role.
The whole point in looking at the stats is to make an educated guess as to how Baez would perform in the closer's role.
Your position is that he would perform poorly due to him being 0/15 in his career and blowing 5 saves this yr vs. 16 holds.
My position is, I'd like to look at when he comes into a clean inning.
But don't forget, the whole premise is that, if Jansen were to finish with a 4.50+ ERA, who would be a better option?
It sounds like you'd be more willing to stick to Jansen and his 4.50+ ERA than even giving Baez a try. |
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ribeye
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| Posted: Tue Jul 23, 2019 11:30 am Post subject: |
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| LongBeachPoly wrote: |
It is baseball, but we are not beholden to the pure black and white stats.
The first stat, that he is 0 for 15 in save opportunities in his career is entirely misleading.
The 2nd stat, that he's actually blown 5 save opportunities this yr, is also misleading.
We're trying to evaluate how Baez would do in the closer's role. A closer is rarely going to come into a situation with runners on base. A closer is going to come into a clean inning. You have less of a chance to blow a save in a clean inning than you do coming into a game with the bases loaded and 1 out.
So, my proposition is to evaluate Baez when coming into clean innings. It's just a suggestion.
We really don't know how he would do in the closer's role until we put him in the closer's role.
The whole point in looking at the stats is to make an educated guess as to how Baez would perform in the closer's role.
Your position is that he would perform poorly due to him being 0/15 in his career and blowing 5 saves this yr vs. 16 holds.
My position is, I'd like to look at when he comes into a clean inning.
But don't forget, the whole premise is that, if Jansen were to finish with a 4.50+ ERA, who would be a better option?
It sounds like you'd be more willing to stick to Jansen and his 4.50+ ERA than even giving Baez a try. |
I think you are putting words in my mouth and ignoring what I've been saying herein. Even now, sub 4.50, I would have no troubles trying out Urias, and I'd like to get a another closer if another team could, as least, be semi-reasonable. Heck I would be game to see how Sadler would do.
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LongBeachPoly
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| Posted: Tue Jul 23, 2019 11:54 am Post subject: |
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| ribeye wrote: | | LongBeachPoly wrote: |
It is baseball, but we are not beholden to the pure black and white stats.
The first stat, that he is 0 for 15 in save opportunities in his career is entirely misleading.
The 2nd stat, that he's actually blown 5 save opportunities this yr, is also misleading.
We're trying to evaluate how Baez would do in the closer's role. A closer is rarely going to come into a situation with runners on base. A closer is going to come into a clean inning. You have less of a chance to blow a save in a clean inning than you do coming into a game with the bases loaded and 1 out.
So, my proposition is to evaluate Baez when coming into clean innings. It's just a suggestion.
We really don't know how he would do in the closer's role until we put him in the closer's role.
The whole point in looking at the stats is to make an educated guess as to how Baez would perform in the closer's role.
Your position is that he would perform poorly due to him being 0/15 in his career and blowing 5 saves this yr vs. 16 holds.
My position is, I'd like to look at when he comes into a clean inning.
But don't forget, the whole premise is that, if Jansen were to finish with a 4.50+ ERA, who would be a better option?
It sounds like you'd be more willing to stick to Jansen and his 4.50+ ERA than even giving Baez a try. |
I think you are putting words in my mouth and ignoring what I've been saying herein. Even now, sub 4.50, I would have no troubles trying out Urias, and I'd like to get a another closer if another team could, as least, be semi-reasonable. Heck I would be game to see how Sadler would do. |
Yeah, if I'm putting words in your mouth, I didn't mean to.
My whole premise was, if Jansen has a 4.50+ ERA at the end of the season, I think he'd lose his job.
Then I suggested that Baez should be made the closer at that point. To which you replied: "In fact, if Baez were the closer, we might as well say we are giving up."
| Quote: | | I would have no troubles trying out Urias |
Agreed. Urias is our best reliever right now so it's a no brainer if they ever wanted to try him at closer or anywhere else. The problem is, they won't pitch him 2 straight days so it's not really if he's qualified. It's a matter of how they intend to use him.
| Quote: | | I'd like to get a another closer if another team could, as least |
No arguments here. And of course, I was assuming if we didn't go out and trade for another closer. If we did acquire another closer, then it's a no brainer that he'd be the no. 1 choice.
| Quote: | | Heck I would be game to see how Sadler would do. |
Ok, you lost me here. So, you have more confidence in Sadler than Baez right now? I don't know if the club agrees with you because it does seem like they put Baez in the highest leveraged situations and they hardly/rarely use Sadler.
But, you'd be more confident in trying out Sadler as our closer eventhough we rarely use him at all?
So your view of Sadler as a closer is, you'd be ok with that? But, if we try Baez as a closer, your view is that, "In fact, if Baez were the closer, we might as well say we are giving up"? |
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ribeye
Franchise Player
Joined: 10 Nov 2001
Posts: 12642
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| Posted: Tue Jul 23, 2019 12:06 pm Post subject: |
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| LongBeachPoly wrote: | | ribeye wrote: | | LongBeachPoly wrote: |
It is baseball, but we are not beholden to the pure black and white stats.
The first stat, that he is 0 for 15 in save opportunities in his career is entirely misleading.
The 2nd stat, that he's actually blown 5 save opportunities this yr, is also misleading.
We're trying to evaluate how Baez would do in the closer's role. A closer is rarely going to come into a situation with runners on base. A closer is going to come into a clean inning. You have less of a chance to blow a save in a clean inning than you do coming into a game with the bases loaded and 1 out.
So, my proposition is to evaluate Baez when coming into clean innings. It's just a suggestion.
We really don't know how he would do in the closer's role until we put him in the closer's role.
The whole point in looking at the stats is to make an educated guess as to how Baez would perform in the closer's role.
Your position is that he would perform poorly due to him being 0/15 in his career and blowing 5 saves this yr vs. 16 holds.
My position is, I'd like to look at when he comes into a clean inning.
But don't forget, the whole premise is that, if Jansen were to finish with a 4.50+ ERA, who would be a better option?
It sounds like you'd be more willing to stick to Jansen and his 4.50+ ERA than even giving Baez a try. |
I think you are putting words in my mouth and ignoring what I've been saying herein. Even now, sub 4.50, I would have no troubles trying out Urias, and I'd like to get a another closer if another team could, as least, be semi-reasonable. Heck I would be game to see how Sadler would do. |
Yeah, if I'm putting words in your mouth, I didn't mean to.
My whole premise was, if Jansen has a 4.50+ ERA at the end of the season, I think he'd lose his job.
Then I suggested that Baez should be made the closer at that point. To which you replied: "In fact, if Baez were the closer, we might as well say we are giving up."
| Quote: | | I would have no troubles trying out Urias |
Agreed. Urias is our best reliever right now so it's a no brainer if they ever wanted to try him at closer or anywhere else. The problem is, they won't pitch him 2 straight days so it's not really if he's qualified. It's a matter of how they intend to use him.
| Quote: | | I'd like to get a another closer if another team could, as least |
No arguments here. And of course, I was assuming if we didn't go out and trade for another closer. If we did acquire another closer, then it's a no brainer that he'd be the no. 1 choice.
| Quote: | | Heck I would be game to see how Sadler would do. |
Ok, you lost me here. So, you have more confidence in Sadler than Baez right now? I don't know if the club agrees with you because it does seem like they put Baez in the highest leveraged situations and they hardly/rarely use Sadler.
But, you'd be more confident in trying out Sadler as our closer eventhough we rarely use him at all? |
First, because I'm not interested in Baez as a closer, does in no way mean I would stick with Jansen and a 4.50 ERA. A 4.50 ERA for anyone, should be a concern. For a closer, it should be a non-starter for any fan. I am not saying that I'm giving up on Jansen, like so many have, as he's earned some trust, but that also doesn't I'm going to cater to his whims either.
As for Sadler, he has given me no reason to doubt him, at least to try him out. With Baez, I've run out of toes and fingers.
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LongBeachPoly
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Joined: 14 Jul 2012
Posts: 16252
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| Posted: Tue Jul 23, 2019 12:15 pm Post subject: |
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| ribeye wrote: | | LongBeachPoly wrote: | | ribeye wrote: | | LongBeachPoly wrote: |
It is baseball, but we are not beholden to the pure black and white stats.
The first stat, that he is 0 for 15 in save opportunities in his career is entirely misleading.
The 2nd stat, that he's actually blown 5 save opportunities this yr, is also misleading.
We're trying to evaluate how Baez would do in the closer's role. A closer is rarely going to come into a situation with runners on base. A closer is going to come into a clean inning. You have less of a chance to blow a save in a clean inning than you do coming into a game with the bases loaded and 1 out.
So, my proposition is to evaluate Baez when coming into clean innings. It's just a suggestion.
We really don't know how he would do in the closer's role until we put him in the closer's role.
The whole point in looking at the stats is to make an educated guess as to how Baez would perform in the closer's role.
Your position is that he would perform poorly due to him being 0/15 in his career and blowing 5 saves this yr vs. 16 holds.
My position is, I'd like to look at when he comes into a clean inning.
But don't forget, the whole premise is that, if Jansen were to finish with a 4.50+ ERA, who would be a better option?
It sounds like you'd be more willing to stick to Jansen and his 4.50+ ERA than even giving Baez a try. |
I think you are putting words in my mouth and ignoring what I've been saying herein. Even now, sub 4.50, I would have no troubles trying out Urias, and I'd like to get a another closer if another team could, as least, be semi-reasonable. Heck I would be game to see how Sadler would do. |
Yeah, if I'm putting words in your mouth, I didn't mean to.
My whole premise was, if Jansen has a 4.50+ ERA at the end of the season, I think he'd lose his job.
Then I suggested that Baez should be made the closer at that point. To which you replied: "In fact, if Baez were the closer, we might as well say we are giving up."
| Quote: | | I would have no troubles trying out Urias |
Agreed. Urias is our best reliever right now so it's a no brainer if they ever wanted to try him at closer or anywhere else. The problem is, they won't pitch him 2 straight days so it's not really if he's qualified. It's a matter of how they intend to use him.
| Quote: | | I'd like to get a another closer if another team could, as least |
No arguments here. And of course, I was assuming if we didn't go out and trade for another closer. If we did acquire another closer, then it's a no brainer that he'd be the no. 1 choice.
| Quote: | | Heck I would be game to see how Sadler would do. |
Ok, you lost me here. So, you have more confidence in Sadler than Baez right now? I don't know if the club agrees with you because it does seem like they put Baez in the highest leveraged situations and they hardly/rarely use Sadler.
But, you'd be more confident in trying out Sadler as our closer eventhough we rarely use him at all? |
First, because I'm not interested in Baez as a closer, does in no way mean I would stick with Jansen and a 4.50 ERA. A 4.50 ERA for anyone, should be a concern. For a closer, it should be a non-starter for any fan. I am not saying that I'm giving up on Jansen, like so many have, as he's earned some trust, but that also doesn't I'm going to cater to his whims either.
As for Sadler, he has given me no reason to doubt him, at least to try him out. With Baez, I've run out of toes and fingers. |
Baez was our best reliever last year. I don't know if you agree or disagree with that statement. He also was tremendous in the playoffs last year.
He's been our 2nd best reliever this year. I don't know if you agree or disagree with that statement.
Yeah, if Sadler is closer material, we should definitely start using him in the 8th inning more. So far, he's pitched 4.2 ip for us. If indeed Sadler is our playoff closer, imagine how Tampa Bay feels.
They basically DFA'd a playoff closer for a 100 win team. |
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ribeye
Franchise Player
Joined: 10 Nov 2001
Posts: 12642
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| Posted: Tue Jul 23, 2019 12:36 pm Post subject: |
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Dodger Stadium to undergo $100-million renovation this offseason
Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah . . . whether you’re on the field level or in the top deck, it’s going to look the same as it did before,” Kasten said. “That Dodger Stadium view from foul pole to foul pole is just timeless and iconic and we didn’t want to change that.
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"A metronome keeps time by using a Ringo" |
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ribeye
Franchise Player
Joined: 10 Nov 2001
Posts: 12642
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| Posted: Tue Jul 23, 2019 12:50 pm Post subject: |
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| LongBeachPoly wrote: |
Baez was our best reliever last year. I don't know if you agree or disagree with that statement. He also was tremendous in the playoffs last year.
He's been our 2nd best reliever this year. I don't know if you agree or disagree with that statement.
Yeah, if Sadler is closer material, we should definitely start using him in the 8th inning more. So far, he's pitched 4.2 ip for us. If indeed Sadler is our playoff closer, imagine how Tampa Bay feels.
They basically DFA'd a playoff closer for a 100 win team. |
I've never considered who was the best reliever last year, but at a quick glance, I'd say Kenley was the best reliever followed by Fields, then Baez.
This year, I'll still stick with Kenley with Baez second, but that doesn't say a whole hellava lot.
As for Sadler, he also pitched for TB, has 24 MLB innings this year, with a 1.88 ERA. Maybe a bunch were mop-ups so this could be misleading, but I likes me those sub 2 ERA's myself.
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LongBeachPoly
Franchise Player
Joined: 14 Jul 2012
Posts: 16252
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| Posted: Tue Jul 23, 2019 12:57 pm Post subject: |
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| ribeye wrote: | | LongBeachPoly wrote: |
Baez was our best reliever last year. I don't know if you agree or disagree with that statement. He also was tremendous in the playoffs last year.
He's been our 2nd best reliever this year. I don't know if you agree or disagree with that statement.
Yeah, if Sadler is closer material, we should definitely start using him in the 8th inning more. So far, he's pitched 4.2 ip for us. If indeed Sadler is our playoff closer, imagine how Tampa Bay feels.
They basically DFA'd a playoff closer for a 100 win team. |
I've never considered who was the best reliever last year, but at a quick glance, I'd say Kenley was the best reliever followed by Fields, then Baez.
This year, I'll still stick with Kenley with Baez second, but that doesn't say a whole hellava lot.
As for Sadler, he also pitched for TB, has 24 MLB innings this year, with a 1.88 ERA. Maybe a bunch were mop-ups so this could be misleading, but I likes me those sub 2 ERA's myself. |
Yeah, I don't remember Fields being our best last year. Going into the playoffs, Kenley was shaky.
It was repeated over and over in the playoffs that Baez was our best reliever last yr and we used him like he was.
Baez was a monster in the 2nd half of the season. Tremendous.
If you like sub 2.00 ERAs, take a look at Baez towards the end of last season and into the playoffs. You might like what you see. |
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ChickenStu
Retired Number
Joined: 25 Apr 2015
Posts: 32270
Location: Anaheim, CA
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| Posted: Tue Jul 23, 2019 1:15 pm Post subject: |
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| I feel more comfortable that Baez can get tough hitters out, over Kenley. And yes, blown saves for middle relievers/setup guys are totally misleading. Where I do agree with ribeye is that we need to do better than Baez as the closer. |
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loslakersss
Franchise Player
Joined: 31 Dec 2008
Posts: 11853
Location: LA
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| Posted: Tue Jul 23, 2019 1:19 pm Post subject: |
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Last year Baez was hot garbage...until he wasn't. Then he was our best guy out of the BP. I'm wondering is Dave is just using the same the-problem-will-fix-itself strategy with Kenley 
The thing is, Kenley hasn't been the same since 2017. He's gotten more and more shaky IMO. Why can't we demote him to low leverage situations to build confidence and give Pedro and Joe the closer role to share in the interim? |
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