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KobeButler
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 Posted: Fri Feb 03, 2006 8:32 pm Post subject: |
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2-17 is what our record was last year without Odom. Keep on discrediting his effect on the team.
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wolfpaclaker
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| Posted: Fri Feb 03, 2006 8:36 pm Post subject: |
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Odom is an integral part of this team. Any time your 2nd best player is out it hurts.
Regardless of how good or bad he is.
I mean look no further than Kobe's FGA. There is no excuse for a team with such limited offensive players to have Bryant take as little shots as he did without any talented scorer on the team (Odom wasn't playing)
Kobe played more like a guard tonight. I didn't like that. He needs to stay in the forward role and dominate in points. This is where a guy like Odom helps out.
While Kobe had a great game, he is more effective as a dominant scorer.
Hopefully we can pull out 3 wins before ASB. Then have a healthy roster to go with after the break. |
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OdomX2
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Joined: 25 Nov 2004
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| Posted: Fri Feb 03, 2006 8:38 pm Post subject: |
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| wolfpaclaker wrote: | Odom is an integral part of this team. Any time your 2nd best player is out it hurts.
Regardless of how good or bad he is.
I mean look no further than Kobe's FGA. There is no excuse for a team with such limited offensive players to have Bryant take as little shots as he did without any talented scorer on the team (Odom wasn't playing)
Kobe played more like a guard tonight. I didn't like that. He needs to stay in the forward role and dominate in points. This is where a guy like Odom helps out.
While Kobe had a great game, he is more effective as a dominant scorer.
Hopefully we can pull out 3 wins before ASB. Then have a healthy roster to go with after the break. |
Odom is a part of the problem, not the solution. Correct me if I'm wrong, but he played against Indiana didn't he? |
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wolfpaclaker
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| Posted: Fri Feb 03, 2006 8:42 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | Odom is a part of the problem, not the solution. Correct me if I'm wrong, but he played against Indiana didn't he? |
Indiana's a good team.
Charlotte isn't.
I expected the Lakers to lose to Indiana on a 2nd night of a back to back. Didn't expect this loss, though.
Even with Odom they aren't an elite team, but he does bring more than the rest of this roster minus Kobe.
He is the 2nd best player - even with all the weaknesses. So no matter how you spin it - Lakers are a weaker team without him and DO miss his rebounding and ballhandling. |
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vanexelent
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Joined: 17 May 2005
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| Posted: Fri Feb 03, 2006 8:43 pm Post subject: |
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| Car54 wrote: | | vanexelent wrote: | | Car54 wrote: | | DuncanIdaho wrote: | We arguably missed Odom more than Kobe during their injury stints last year. Of course he helps us out. The problem is, someone like Artest could have probably helped us out more.
We'll see. |
If we could have gotten Ron without losing our best rebounder it would have helped. But to say he would have helped more i have to disagree. where he would have helped on defense & scoring we would have lost in rebs and as a pg of team. i dont know about yall but i dont trust mihm and kwame enough in the reb department. |
Rebounds can easily be compensated for and picked up by the collective team. Without Odom's average of 9 rebounds a game tonight, the team all stepped up grabbing some boards.
Kobe-9 rbs.
Mihm-9 rbs.
Walton-7 rbs.
George- 5 rbs
Brown-5 rbs.
Cook-4 rbs.
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sure someone got more rebs because of more playing time sure they got more ast but that was due to more playing time. look at caron last season avg around 8 rebs without odom in the lineup but we still got killed by second chance points. Its not as simple as looking at stats. watching the game is the right way to judge. |
My point with the stats is to disprove the tangables that Odom brings, i.e. rebounds and assissts, which he leads the team in. These are the main arguments I hear about how important he is to the team. I don't see him boxing out on defense, I don't see him shutting down opposing SF's. I am under the belief that his assests can be compensated for if he were to be traded for a legit 2nd option.
Its obvious that the entire team needs to play better defense as a whole. Lamar Odom is neither helping nor hurting the team on defense. I think he is expendable. Especially if it resulted in a true scorer. |
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OdomX2
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| Posted: Fri Feb 03, 2006 8:47 pm Post subject: |
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| wolfpaclaker wrote: | | Quote: | | Odom is a part of the problem, not the solution. Correct me if I'm wrong, but he played against Indiana didn't he? |
Indiana's a good team.
Charlotte isn't.
I expected the Lakers to lose to Indiana on a 2nd night of a back to back. Didn't expect this loss, though.
Even with Odom they aren't an elite team, but he does bring more than the rest of this roster minus Kobe.
He is the 2nd best player - even with all the weaknesses. So no matter how you spin it - Lakers are a weaker team without him and DO miss his rebounding and ballhandling. |
Indiana was missing 4 of their 5 starters!~!!!! Are you kidding me??? Ballhandling?? Are you kidding? Please tell me it's April 1. |
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wolfpaclaker
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| Posted: Fri Feb 03, 2006 8:47 pm Post subject: |
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^
Look at Kobe's FGA's.
Kobe started as a guard since George was out there. Noone on this team apart from LO really allows Kobe to be a pure scorer.
Because you have a SF that can play PG, Bryant stops caring about facilitating the offense and just attacks.
While Odom has his weaknesses and has indeed cost the Lakers games this season, he is not as bad as the rest of this roster. He is a very good talent and could help trumendously on a given night. Is it that hard to accept that he's the 2nd best player and team's are always worse without their 2nd best player? |
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OdomX2
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| Posted: Fri Feb 03, 2006 8:48 pm Post subject: |
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| wolfpaclaker wrote: | ^
Look at Kobe's FGA's.
Kobe started as a guard since George was out there. Noone on this team apart from LO really allows Kobe to be a pure scorer.
Because you have a SF that can play PG, Bryant stops caring about facilitating the offense and just attacks.
While Odom has his weaknesses and has indeed cost the Lakers games this season, he is not as bad as the rest of this roster. He is a very good talent and could help trumendously on a given night. Is it that hard to accept that he's the 2nd best player and team's are always worse without their 2nd best player? |
Kobe is 1 and there's a log jam for 2nd best player...and none of them are worth dick. The problem is that Odone makes 10 mil per. |
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critical_beatdown
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| Posted: Fri Feb 03, 2006 8:49 pm Post subject: |
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| The bottom line is that the record and play of this team without Lamar Odom on the floor is not reassuring. Last year, we were the worst team in the NBA without Lamar, whereas when Kobe was hurt (with Lamar) we'd still compete and win games. |
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vanexelent
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| Posted: Fri Feb 03, 2006 8:56 pm Post subject: |
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| wolfpaclaker wrote: | ^
Look at Kobe's FGA's.
Kobe started as a guard since George was out there. Noone on this team apart from LO really allows Kobe to be a pure scorer.
Because you have a SF that can play PG, Bryant stops caring about facilitating the offense and just attacks.
While Odom has his weaknesses and has indeed cost the Lakers games this season, he is not as bad as the rest of this roster. He is a very good talent and could help trumendously on a given night. Is it that hard to accept that he's the 2nd best player and team's are always worse without their 2nd best player? |
Why is it that Lamar is viewed as such a "facilitator" that is constantly feeding Kobe the ball? Kobe demands the ball from all players. Who couldn't dribble the ball down the court and pass to Kobe on the first chance they get? Everybody on the team does!
Certainly Odom is the 2nd best player on the team, but when your best player is also the best player in the world, you have better step your game up. The gap between their abilities are great. This isn't Jordan and Pippen, Stockton and Malone, Shaq and Kobe here.
| Quote: | | and could help trumendously on a given night. |
You are right on this one, he could help on A given night...and I think that night has already passed. |
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wolfpaclaker
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| Posted: Fri Feb 03, 2006 9:02 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | Why is it that Lamar is viewed as such a "facilitator" that is constantly feeding Kobe the ball? Kobe demands the ball from all players. Who couldn't dribble the ball down the court and pass to Kobe on the first chance they get? Everybody on the team does! |
Actually that happens when Kobe's hit his stride and just took over.
When the game is actually going on, LO will be setting up others too. But the key point is that Kobe has to do less with LO in there. Without LO, Kobe has to do BOTH the guard duties and the scoring duties.
Why do you think Micheal Jordan won rings when he averaged way less assists?
Why is Lebron James not winning as much as he should with the talent around him?
It's simple. He has to lead the team in assists and points. Atleast when you have someone that can give the team the guard role - you canb just focus on points.
Tonight Kobe was more of a guard than he has been all season. This is the effect of not having LO in the game.
| Quote: |
Certainly Odom is the 2nd best player on the team, but when your best player is also the best player in the world, you have better step your game up. The gap between their abilities are great. This isn't Jordan and Pippen, Stockton and Malone, Shaq and Kobe here |
Who said that?
If Odom was that level - they would be a 55 win team. He isn't a superstar. Noone's saying that.
BUT he does help Kobe and this team alot through ballhandling and rebounding.
However some just can't admit that. It's not like I'm even saying that LO is the only player that can help the Lakers. I'm saying that the Lakers are worse off without him and we shouldn't be too upset over games lost without him and Kobe trying to do too much (Be a guard and top scorer)
The only two players on this team with good offensive talent (or great in Kobe's case) are Bryant and Odom. Without Odom, the Lakers are literally 1 star and 6-7 rotation scrubs. |
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Aeneas Hunter
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| Posted: Fri Feb 03, 2006 9:26 pm Post subject: |
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Sure, Odom is important if we have to replace him with Devean George and Brian Cook. He's better than them.
That's the fallacy of this whole argument. Other than the hotheads, few people would say that the Lakers are better off without Odom. We think that the Lakers would be better off trading Odom for a player or players who are a better fit for our needs. |
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critical_beatdown
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| Posted: Fri Feb 03, 2006 9:28 pm Post subject: |
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How good was the team last year without Kobe and with Lamar, and without Lamar and with Kobe?
Justify your rationalization after your answer. |
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wolfpaclaker
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| Posted: Fri Feb 03, 2006 9:28 pm Post subject: |
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| Aeneas Hunter wrote: | Sure, Odom is important if we have to replace him with Devean George and Brian Cook. He's better than them.
That's the fallacy of this whole argument. Other than the hotheads, few people would say that the Lakers are better off without Odom. We think that the Lakers would be better off trading Odom for a player or players who are a better fit for our needs. |
That's fine.
And I haven't even said that once in either thread.
But the fact is, there's so much Odom hate - that guys won't even admit as much as you did in the first sentence.
Is it that hard to acknowledge that Odom makes Kobe's job easier on offense? Or that he facilitates the Lakers offense? The only player who has even close to quality talent on this team after Kobe is Odom. And he wasn't playing tonight.
Ofcourse they would be worse.
Last edited by wolfpaclaker on Fri Feb 03, 2006 9:29 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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lakerfin
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| Posted: Fri Feb 03, 2006 9:28 pm Post subject: |
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I'm listening to the pros and cons of Lamar Odom from everyone. I can see points on both sides. Love him, get rid of him. But for me ,the real problem is , you can't have your second most integral player be so indecisive, so unsure of himself, so LOST sometimes. He's seven years in? While he and Kwame both have unbelievable physical abilities, it's the ones that are confident and have mental toughness that really make a difference. If we lose a game, let it be because the other team just willed themselves past us, head to head, not because we have starters that are either weak minded (mentally/emotionally) or just content with collecting their fat checks. Some of these guys don't appreciate what an honor it is to be a part of this historic franchise...... Or to be paid to play a game they supposedly love.
Sure is a different game today. |
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Worthy42
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Joined: 03 Aug 2004
Posts: 19952
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| Posted: Fri Feb 03, 2006 9:34 pm Post subject: |
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| lakerfin wrote: | I'm listening to the pros and cons of Lamar Odom from everyone. I can see points on both sides. Love him, get rid of him. But for me ,the real problem is , you can't have your second most integral player be so indecisive, so unsure of himself, so LOST sometimes. He's seven years in? While he and Kwame both have unbelievable physical abilities, it's the ones that are confident and have mental toughness that really make a difference. If we lose a game, let it be because the other team just willed themselves past us, head to head, not because we have starters that are either weak minded (mentally/emotionally) or just content with collecting their fat checks. Some of these guys don't appreciate what an honor it is to be a part of this historic franchise...... Or to be paid to play a game they supposedly love.
Sure is a different game today. |
not even a full year of experience under the triangle offense as initiator yet. that's the real time table you have to look at.
it took kobe about 2 years to master, about the same time as a ron harper and brian shaw |
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Drifts
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| Posted: Fri Feb 03, 2006 9:38 pm Post subject: |
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| Worthy42 wrote: | | lakerfin wrote: | I'm listening to the pros and cons of Lamar Odom from everyone. I can see points on both sides. Love him, get rid of him. But for me ,the real problem is , you can't have your second most integral player be so indecisive, so unsure of himself, so LOST sometimes. He's seven years in? While he and Kwame both have unbelievable physical abilities, it's the ones that are confident and have mental toughness that really make a difference. If we lose a game, let it be because the other team just willed themselves past us, head to head, not because we have starters that are either weak minded (mentally/emotionally) or just content with collecting their fat checks. Some of these guys don't appreciate what an honor it is to be a part of this historic franchise...... Or to be paid to play a game they supposedly love.
Sure is a different game today. |
not even a full year of experience under the triangle offense as initiator yet. that's the real time table you have to look at.
it took kobe about 2 years to master, about the same time as a ron harper and brian shaw |
2 years for Kobe to master?
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Supa
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| Posted: Fri Feb 03, 2006 9:42 pm Post subject: |
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By the way, just to clarify, Kobe's record when Lamar was injured at the end of last season is 2-13. Mihm missed five of those games and Caron missed two. Jumaine was playing big minutes at the PF. Hamblen pretty much gave up on the team. Most difficult schedule to end the season in many years. Out of the playoffs. Moving up in the draft looked mighty good.
Lamar's record last season when Kobe was injured was 6-8. Rudy was still coach. The schedule was actually one of the easier parts of the season and included a big homestand. The Lakers held the 6th seed in the playoffs I believe.
Lamar also missed a game during the season before the shoulder injury that the Lakers won.
So officially including this season the records are.
Kobe w/o Lamar 3-14 (8 home | 9 road)
Lamar w/o Kobe 6-10 (9 home | 7 road)
It's bad, but not as bad as some people make it seem, especially considering the circumstances at the end of last season. Kobe's unfortunately will very likely get much worse as Lamar got injured at a very bad time (Middle of a 7-game roadtrip). |
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critical_beatdown
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| Posted: Fri Feb 03, 2006 9:48 pm Post subject: |
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| Supa, good answer, and better than I expected. Still, I think there's something to the Lamar factor most of us don't realize. We seem to play pretty well with him when Kobe isn't playing, but when Kobe plays without Lamar, it brings out our worst habits. |
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venturalakersfan
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| Posted: Fri Feb 03, 2006 9:51 pm Post subject: |
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| critical_beatdown wrote: | | The bottom line is that the record and play of this team without Lamar Odom on the floor is not reassuring. Last year, we were the worst team in the NBA without Lamar, whereas when Kobe was hurt (with Lamar) we'd still compete and win games. |
That was more a product of the schedule than anything else.
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critical_beatdown
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| Posted: Fri Feb 03, 2006 9:54 pm Post subject: |
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| venturalakersfan wrote: | | critical_beatdown wrote: | | The bottom line is that the record and play of this team without Lamar Odom on the floor is not reassuring. Last year, we were the worst team in the NBA without Lamar, whereas when Kobe was hurt (with Lamar) we'd still compete and win games. |
That was more a product of the schedule than anything else. |
BS. We're terrible without Lamar. He contributes in so many areas as just one basketball player it's hard to really notice, unless you actually play the game frequently and understand what it means to have a guy like Lamar on your team.
Kobe is great, but much better with Lamar out there. It's not always obvious the impact Lamar has, until he's not on the floor and we're losing mass games.
Last edited by critical_beatdown on Fri Feb 03, 2006 10:03 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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venturalakersfan
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| Posted: Fri Feb 03, 2006 9:58 pm Post subject: |
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I don't disagree with you, CB. I haven't been one to want to trade Odom away. For a good big, I would jump on it. But that would be my asking price. But as for last season, the schedule was much harder at the end of the season when Odom went down than earlier, and that is as more to blame for the way the team finished than losing Odom was.
What really sucks is that we will likely have these debates about how the team plays/can't play with Odom injured every season. The guy won't play 82.
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critical_beatdown
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| Posted: Fri Feb 03, 2006 10:04 pm Post subject: |
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| venturalakersfan wrote: | I don't disagree with you, CB. I haven't been one to want to trade Odom away. For a good big, I would jump on it. But that would be my asking price. But as for last season, the schedule was much harder at the end of the season when Odom went down than earlier, and that is as more to blame for the way the team finished than losing Odom was.
What really sucks is that we will likely have these debates about how the team plays/can't play with Odom injured every season. The guy won't play 82. |
I hear you...but Lamar has just a minor injury. He will be back, and soon, unless we decide to toss the season (Kobe will get hurt if that happens). |
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Drifts
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| Posted: Fri Feb 03, 2006 10:08 pm Post subject: |
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when Lamar went out, we had Hamblen coaching and was experimenting with the triangle. We weren't exactly looking good before Lamar got injured.
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"Now, if life is coffee, then the jobs, money & position in society are the cups. They are just tools to hold & contain life, but the quality of life doesn't change. Sometimes, by concentrating only on the cup, we fail to enjoy the coffee in it." |
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bounty
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| Posted: Fri Feb 03, 2006 10:09 pm Post subject: |
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Of course we are not going to be as good w/out LO. thats 12million dollars out of your starting line up. The problem is, we are only a few games better than .500 with that 12 on the floor. Thats the problem. losing a few games here and there isnt a problem. Your stars always tend to get nic nacs. the goal is to have a better star next to kobe so when they are together they win. Another team, another year where LO is counted on and all he manages to do is help get the team to .500. EVEN in Miami HIS so called "Great year" they were barely .500. With this supporting cast we should at least have an all star next to Kobe. I mean where the hell is all the money going. I know LO wasnt there 2night, but if people bring that up as to why we lost , i will continue to debate that. 2 games in a row both L's. 1 blow out(with LO), one choke (w/out).
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