Joined: 10 Dec 2006 Posts: 52768 Location: Making a safety stop at 15 feet.
Posted: Thu May 16, 2024 8:20 pm Post subject:
kikanga wrote:
DaMuleRules wrote:
Not at all. It's a valid description of why your analogy is not an entirely accurate comparison to what is going on it Gaza.
I think you should clarify.
I did exactly that in the post you responded to, and which you clipped out here.
Quote:
Because my understanding of your perspective is:
If guilty people hide beside innocent people. It is justifiable (not by international law, but your law) to kill everyone if the guilty people aren't willing to negotiate. Cause ... "it's complicated".
You're either not following long very well, or are being disingenuous:
DaMuleRules wrote:
I'm well aware of what international law says on the issue and, in fact, have posted it's verbiage in this thread in the past to demonstrate that Israel's action do indeed violate it.
You disagree with the Leahy Laws and believe we are 100% innocent for supplying tools for collective punishment when it comes to Gazans because "it's complicated". It's a perspective Blinken would never directly say.
DaMuleRules wrote:
I have always said that the US is complicit in what is going on and should do exactly that.
kikanga wrote:
If that is your perspect. I think it is a huuuuuge reach to avoid giving any accountability to the US for what is going on in Gaza.
It's not and I am not, as I have pointed out clearly.
Look, I totally understand why you feel you need to boil the situation in Gaza down to very simple terms. It makes it much easier to make bold statements and accusations about the people involved, or those trying to reasonably discuss it.
But the reality is, Hamas is not a handful of bank robbers who got chased by the police into a house occupied by a few innocent people. They are an internationally recognized entity who committed an act of war by attacking a NATION and slaughtering over 1,000 of it's citizens in a single day. They didn't just stumble into someone's home and hide to wait things out. They seized a couple of hundred hostages from that nation and then receded to carry out further attacks while hiding amongst it's own population.What's going on in Gaza is not a bank robbery gone wrong; it's a war. I don't know how much history you have studied, but civilians die in war; sometimes it's collateral, sometimes it's indiscriminate and sometimes it's intentional, as is the case from both sides in this Gaza offensive. Responding to that as a third nation, indirectly involved yet deeply entrenched with the situation with all kinds of political implications is in fact "complicated", no matter how much you want to diminish that word and dismiss that truth.
I'm as angered at Israel's indiscriminate attack on the people of Gaza as anyone. It's horrifying. I wish Biden had been more assertive in his handling of it all. But as someone who has been aware of the (bleep) up situation in that region since I was a kid becoming aware of world events a half century ago, I know that there's reason it's volatility has been an ongoing issue for far longer and that Biden's actions, no matter what they are, aren't going to change much.
Quote:
I think it is easier to say Biden did the right thing changing his stance slightly recently. But hey, to each their own.
I've already said that at least it appears he's heading in the right direction now, but wish it happened earlier.
I'm all for a spirited discussion that comes from an honest place. Feel free to get back to me when you are too. _________________ You thought God was an architect, now you know
He’s something like a pipe bomb ready to blow
And everything you built that’s all for show
goes up in flames
In 24 frames
Joined: 15 Sep 2012 Posts: 29825 Location: La La Land
Posted: Fri May 17, 2024 9:16 am Post subject:
DaMuleRules wrote:
But the reality is, Hamas is not a handful of bank robbers who got chased by the police into a house occupied by a few innocent people. They are an internationally recognized entity who committed an act of war by attacking a NATION and slaughtering over 1,000 of it's citizens in a single day. They didn't just stumble into someone's home and hide to wait things out. They seized a couple of hundred hostages from that nation and then receded to carry out further attacks while hiding amongst it's own population.What's going on in Gaza is not a bank robbery gone wrong; it's a war. I don't know how much history you have studied, but civilians die in war; sometimes it's collateral, sometimes it's indiscriminate and sometimes it's intentional, as is the case from both sides in this Gaza offensive. Responding to that as a third nation, indirectly involved yet deeply entrenched with the situation with all kinds of political implications is in fact "complicated", no matter how much you want to diminish that word and dismiss that truth.
We do agree much more than we disagree on this topic.
Out of your most recent post. I could definitely debate you on how applicable my metaphor is.
But putting that aside. My main point of contention is the bolded. I don't like how alot of people. For example, Morning Joe, try to pretend this issue is so "complex", that if you understand the history, our position is defensible. I'm sure similar collective punishments in the past were justified similarly.
And what kinda dragged me into this conversation a couple days back was this quote.
DaMuleRules wrote:
We can only put some much blame on the Gen-Zers, their naïveté is fed by people who are older and should be wiser puppeting BS talking points blaming Biden for Israel’s independent actions and a media who fuels the “Both Sides” nonsense while ignoring Biden’s multiple successes.
Comments like the above. Makes it tough for me to bite my lip.
I think it is the opposite of naive. To acknowledge Israel has done what they've done in Gaza with the empowerment and backing of our government. And we (the US) have much room for improvement. Even now, Blinken's most recent comments this week are ... a problem.
I blamed you for strawman-ing my arguments in the past. And you just provided proof I did the same to you.
I will try to avoid that moving forward. Even with the bodies piling up. I will try to remember, we mostly agree on this conflict.
And I hope you try to avoid framing outrage over our involvement in this conflict as naivete. _________________ "Every hurt is a lesson, and every lesson makes you better”
Last edited by kikanga on Fri May 17, 2024 11:27 am; edited 5 times in total
Meanwhile, back at our own completely corrupt Supreme Court:
Quote:
Jo @JoJoFromJerz
Clarence Thomas’ wife helped plan the insurrection and Samuel Alito’s wife flew our flag upside down in support of the insurrection and these two men are about to help decide if the man behind the insurrection should be able to get away with murder.
Trump Allies’ Horrifying Plan to Undo Democracy for Good
A new report details how Donald Trump plans to turn the Justice Department and FBI into his personal attack dogs.
Quote:
New details have emerged of plans by Trump allies to dismantle democracy under a second Trump administration by packing the Department of Justice with Trump loyalists and shrinking the independent scope of the FBI. The plans, as detailed by Reuters, seek to craft a DOJ to advance conservative agendas, heavily curtail civil liberties, and impede investigations into corruption by Trump and his allies.
The plans laid out by Trump allies to convert the FBI into a politically charged conservative attack dog come from the authoritarian aspirations of Project 2025, a sprawling network led by conservative think tanks that comb through existing law to find loopholes and precedent for Trump—or any conservative president—to enact extreme right-wing policies and consolidate power at a moment’s notice.
Trump Allies’ Horrifying Plan to Undo Democracy for Good
A new report details how Donald Trump plans to turn the Justice Department and FBI into his personal attack dogs.
Quote:
New details have emerged of plans by Trump allies to dismantle democracy under a second Trump administration by packing the Department of Justice with Trump loyalists and shrinking the independent scope of the FBI. The plans, as detailed by Reuters, seek to craft a DOJ to advance conservative agendas, heavily curtail civil liberties, and impede investigations into corruption by Trump and his allies.
The plans laid out by Trump allies to convert the FBI into a politically charged conservative attack dog come from the authoritarian aspirations of Project 2025, a sprawling network led by conservative think tanks that comb through existing law to find loopholes and precedent for Trump—or any conservative president—to enact extreme right-wing policies and consolidate power at a moment’s notice.
This sounds awfully familiar. I'm sure there was a name for it back in Germany during the 1930's and 1940's. Trump can call his version State Security.
This isn't going away, despite flexing by big money alumni and pressure from grant funders. _________________ On Lakersground, a concern troll is someone who is a fan of another team, but pretends to be a Lakers fan with "concerns".
Here's an updated story on Professor Allan Lichtman. He has successfully predicted the last 9 out of 10 presidental elections. Based on his system right now he is picking Biden to win the election. He will officially make his pic in August.
Joined: 17 Nov 2007 Posts: 68427 Location: In a world where admitting to not knowing something is considered a great way to learn.
Posted: Sat May 18, 2024 8:36 am Post subject:
MTG commented about Jasmine Crockett's eyelashes. Jasmine owned her with Bleach Blonde, Bad Built Butch Body The entire video gives rise to the damage the Repuklicans now in charge can levy on Democracy. Parts of the video had me laughing.
Quote:
Marjorie Taylor Greene is a 'racist' with a 'bleach blonde bad built butch body' one Democrat says after her 'fake eyelashes' became subject of heated spat by boozing lawmakers at the Capitol
LINK
"Bleach Blonde, Bad Built Butch Body: Jasmine Crockett ROASTS MTG | Roland Martin
_________________ Be who you are and say what you feel because those who mind don't matter and those who matter don't mind.
America will never be destroyed from the outside. If we falter and lose our freedoms, it will be because we destroyed ourselves.
To be fair, one of those intifadas was launched because Israel was prepared to give up its control, but due to groups not wanting it to happen and Arafat not being able to find a security partner regionally, he had to reject the agreement.
And fwiw, Gaza is not Egypt and the west bank is not jordan in part because neither wants them, given their history with the populations. Israel doesn’t want Gaza either, and neither does any other Arab nation.
Everything you said is correct. Outside of the bolded.
And nothing you said justifies the mass graves. Created by American weaponry, purposefully used by Bibi to not restrict civilian casualty (even though Bibi has the capability to do so).
I'm not trying to be confrontational. But I am sensitive to arguments that redirect the conversation away from the civilians on the ground being collectively punished.
If you disagree with the bold I do t know how to help, because the whole reason there is a Gaza Strip is because neither Israel nor Egypt want it. The two reasons Israel is there are that they were hit with a major attack and any country in the world would go in, and Netenyahu wants to keep it going because it delays him losing power. The very last thing Israel wants to do is occupy Gaza permanently because there’s no benefit there, unlike the west bank where there is territorial desire.
Fwiw, getting back to the original premise that Gaza is a sovereign territory and Hamas is its government, their attack on Israel requires and allows Israel to wage a pretty total war to end the capacity of that sovereign enemy to continue to wage war. Hamas can’t fight Israel straight up without hostages, both the Israelis and their own civilians, whom they care about even less than Israel does. And Israel, while it does have precautionary rules, does have the right of pretty total war which will include civilian deaths in the thousands, because Hamas has violated war laws first, and Israel is not constrained to just give up because Hamas has decided to fight from civilian areas.
There are lots of things Israel is doing that may or do violate rules of war, but most of the death toll is specifically related to Hamas decisions, because this is what they want (or rather, this is what their masters want for other reasons). They are genociding their own people, which is pretty par for the course.
None of this fails to hold Israel accountable to a lawful strategy and tactics, which I believe they are violating because they have moved from a response to a stall. But ask the German or Japanese civilians what happens if you attack another country and then fight street to street in your own cities. You get untold civilian casualties. And yes, the Allies also committed war crimes (some of the fire bombing for example). But they also killed hundreds of thousands of civilians legally under the rules of war.
not according to the Geneva convention of 1949 where they explicitly call out the right of resistence and armed struggle against colonial occupation forces as a protected right of occupied people.
General Assembly Resolution A/RES/38/17:
"Reaffirms the legitimacy of the struggle of peoples for their independence, territorial integrity, national unity and liberation from colonial domination, apartheid and foreign occupation by all available means, including armed struggle;"
An occupying force cannot claim self-defense.
"Article 51 of the UN Charter does speak to the right of self-defence, and it has outlined that an attack that would trigger self-defence must be committed by another member state and cannot have originated from a territory that is under belligerent occupation by the state that is claiming self-defence."
and finally, Gaza is not a sovereign territory. When you have your water, electricity, food and any movement of people controlled, you are not a sovereign territory. When you have fences around your border and survellence cameras into people's houses, that's hardly considered to be sovereign.
Last edited by paymonM on Sat May 18, 2024 1:26 pm; edited 1 time in total
So is Israel allowed to defend itself from terrorists who target civilians for murder and rape?
let me give you a crude analogy. You have indivdual A, who has a chokehold on individual B. Individual B swings at individual A to get out from under his chokehold. Individual A pulls out a gun and shoots individual B. Can individual A claim self-defense ?
now as far as your comment about "is Israel allowed to defend itself from terrorists who target civilians for murder and rape" do you really want to get into the math of how many civilian Palestinians have been killed, raped and imprisoned versus Israeli citizens going back to 70 years ago, or does your historical knowledge start on Oct 7th ?
Helicopter carrying Iranian president crashed. Likely dead.
Already speculation online that it was an assassination.
Iranian president doesn't have much power anyway, as it's the clerics that rule that country.
Assassination was my first thought. _________________ On Lakersground, a concern troll is someone who is a fan of another team, but pretends to be a Lakers fan with "concerns".
So is Israel allowed to defend itself from terrorists who target civilians for murder and rape?
let me give you a crude analogy. You have indivdual A, who has a chokehold on individual B. Individual B swings at individual A to get out from under his chokehold. Individual A pulls out a gun and shoots individual B. Can individual A claim self-defense ?
now as far as your comment about "is Israel allowed to defend itself from terrorists who target civilians for murder and rape" do you really want to get into the math of how many civilian Palestinians have been killed, raped and imprisoned versus Israeli citizens going back to 70 years ago, or does your historical knowledge start on Oct 7th ?
Crude, but effective. Hamas is no beauty queen . . . but they didn't appear in a vacuum. _________________ On Lakersground, a concern troll is someone who is a fan of another team, but pretends to be a Lakers fan with "concerns".
Joined: 17 Nov 2007 Posts: 68427 Location: In a world where admitting to not knowing something is considered a great way to learn.
Posted: Sun May 19, 2024 10:14 am Post subject:
My nephew is a Morehouse graduate. He attended the commencement ceremony. He said some students and faculty peacefully protested with signs and garments. He said the slippage of young Black men's votes for President Biden is overly exaggerated.
BREAKING NEWS
Updated 3 hours ago
JOE BIDEN Biden delivers Morehouse commencement speech as some students and faculty express pro-Palestinian messages
May 19, 2024, 2:00 AM PDT / Updated May 19, 2024, 7:49 AM PDT
By Nnamdi Egwuonwu
So is Israel allowed to defend itself from terrorists who target civilians for murder and rape?
let me give you a crude analogy. You have indivdual A, who has a chokehold on individual B. Individual B swings at individual A to get out from under his chokehold. Individual A pulls out a gun and shoots individual B. Can individual A claim self-defense ?
now as far as your comment about "is Israel allowed to defend itself from terrorists who target civilians for murder and rape" do you really want to get into the math of how many civilian Palestinians have been killed, raped and imprisoned versus Israeli citizens going back to 70 years ago, or does your historical knowledge start on Oct 7th ?
Crude, but effective. Hamas is no beauty queen . . . but they didn't appear in a vacuum.
absolutely, no one is claiming that Hamas is a clean and humane organization, but if they were, would they survive ? And if conditions in Gaza were not so horrific, would there even be a reason for Hamas to exist ? And , if this is all on Hamas, then how does one expalin all the killings in the WestBank where there is no Hamas.
Now there are those who because of their simple minds believe that any complex issue can be responded with a quick "yes" or "no", otherwise its gymnastics, well, it's clear that they've been watching too many Piers Morgan shows
Joined: 10 Dec 2006 Posts: 52768 Location: Making a safety stop at 15 feet.
Posted: Sun May 19, 2024 3:54 pm Post subject:
Dr. Laker wrote:
Hamas is no beauty queen . . . but they didn't appear in a vacuum.
Exactly. _________________ You thought God was an architect, now you know
He’s something like a pipe bomb ready to blow
And everything you built that’s all for show
goes up in flames
In 24 frames
Joined: 15 Sep 2012 Posts: 29825 Location: La La Land
Posted: Sun May 19, 2024 8:17 pm Post subject:
paymonM wrote:
Dr. Laker wrote:
paymonM wrote:
C M B wrote:
paymonM wrote:
An occupying force cannot claim self-defense.
So is Israel allowed to defend itself from terrorists who target civilians for murder and rape?
let me give you a crude analogy. You have indivdual A, who has a chokehold on individual B. Individual B swings at individual A to get out from under his chokehold. Individual A pulls out a gun and shoots individual B. Can individual A claim self-defense ?
now as far as your comment about "is Israel allowed to defend itself from terrorists who target civilians for murder and rape" do you really want to get into the math of how many civilian Palestinians have been killed, raped and imprisoned versus Israeli citizens going back to 70 years ago, or does your historical knowledge start on Oct 7th ?
Crude, but effective. Hamas is no beauty queen . . . but they didn't appear in a vacuum.
absolutely, no one is claiming that Hamas is a clean and humane organization, but if they were, would they survive ? And if conditions in Gaza were not so horrific, would there even be a reason for Hamas to exist ? And , if this is all on Hamas, then how does one expalin all the killings in the WestBank where there is no Hamas.
Now there are those who because of their simple minds believe that any complex issue can be responded with a quick "yes" or "no", otherwise its gymnastics, well, it's clear that they've been watching too many Piers Morgan shows
The best way I've been able to address what you are talking about is comparing Oct. 7th to Nat Turner's slave rebellion. _________________ "Every hurt is a lesson, and every lesson makes you better”
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