I wouldn't call it Drummondization. Drummond never seemed to lack the motor and activity level, he just needed to harness it, even if his IQ was completely lacking.
Wiggins has some IQ. But, what's the reason for lack of activity?
Would you still take him at #1?
The difference between motor is like Kwame Brown vs. Tyson Chandler. Chandler is a far more limited player, but far more impactful. Team USA. NBA Championship. Cornerstone franchise player.
Kwame Brown? NBA mediocrity.
In years past I would have easily considered Wiggins #1 no matter what. Now, with competition from fellow freshman? It's more difficult to make that choice. Parker is the safest bet up there. There's confidence Embiid is going to hit his upside because of his instincts and motor.
I disagree. People were definitely questioning his activity level at UCONN.
Yeah, I would say that was the biggest criticism he received.
Joined: 10 Apr 2001 Posts: 65135 Location: Orange County, CA
Posted: Tue Dec 31, 2013 8:46 am Post subject:
Quote:
Yeah, I would say that was the biggest criticism he received.
I think I may be mixing up motor for lacking assertiveness.
In Drummond's case, he was very raw, didn't know what to do with all of that athleticism except run and finish in the paint. When it came to one-on-one play, he's still lost. But, he's active.
In Wiggins's case, defensively, he has a great motor even though he lacks some refinement on fundamentals. But I've seen that guy shutdown wing players entirely. Offensively? Lacking assertiveness consistently. The difference there is, Wiggins has some skills to get the job done, but doesn't do it. _________________ Resident Car Nut.
I just think that we spend so much time nit-picking these guys that we overlook what's right in front of our faces. Andrew Wiggins is a supremely talented athlete who is going to be a superstar if he has any degree of fortitude. Interviewing and vetting him out as a person is what I'd spend my time doing if I were running a team. The tools are there in spades.
I understand that it's the nature of scouting, but I feel like it's a little short-sighted to spend so much time dissecting 18 and 19 year olds on things like "assertiveness" and "motor". These guys are children. Compounding that, they're in a new environment, often playing a new role (Tharpe and Mason dominate the ball for KU, for example), and they're expected to be these finished products with a level of maturity that's well beyond their actual age.
Simply put...give me a kid with other worldly physical tools with a rep for being a hard worker and/or coming from a solid family background, and the other stuff will fall into place. To me scouting is way more about identifying what a guy can do and might do rather than what he can't.
Mike, my personal board is...
1) Joel Embiid (comparably elite tools, but at a rarer position)
2) Andrew Wiggins
3) Jabari Parker (best offensive player I've seen in years, the safest pick, but his defense makes me cringe just as it does for you)
I like Exum, Randle, Gordon, & Smart as well, but those are the only 3 guys that I'd consider for the #1 pick.
Joined: 10 Apr 2001 Posts: 65135 Location: Orange County, CA
Posted: Tue Dec 31, 2013 12:05 pm Post subject:
That list, you can't miss.
Understood that these guys aren't really men yet, but they're being put into that position, and it's not different from soccer or tennis or even F1 racing. Fortunately, they've done a few trips at a lower level in regards to international play, elite HS play, tournaments, etc. They have an idea of what they're heading into.
It's not like we don't want them all to succeed. We all do. We want them in the best positions to succeed. Being drafted by the wrong team doesn't help that situation.
Even with Parker, I may be able to excuse that man-defense if he keeps up the level of team defense and solid rebounding. But I don't like the idea of him needing repeated help or getting into foul trouble with role players outpowering him.
The Lakers already have their own elite athlete who lacks ball-handling ability, can knock down from range, and has shown signs of being an elite defender.
He got drafted in the lottery too.
His name is Wesley Johnson. When that thought enters your mind, even with all of his physical tools, it's easier for me to drop Wiggins down.
But guys like Embiid, Randle, Gordon, Parker? Gordon needs more seasoning, but he's developing a jumpshot Griffin is still trying to get. Marcus Smart is a Derek Fisher of a pitbull but with all of the physical tools. _________________ Resident Car Nut.
Understood that these guys aren't really men yet, but they're being put into that position, and it's not different from soccer or tennis or even F1 racing. Fortunately, they've done a few trips at a lower level in regards to international play, elite HS play, tournaments, etc. They have an idea of what they're heading into.
It's not like we don't want them all to succeed. We all do. We want them in the best positions to succeed. Being drafted by the wrong team doesn't help that situation.
Even with Parker, I may be able to excuse that man-defense if he keeps up the level of team defense and solid rebounding. But I don't like the idea of him needing repeated help or getting into foul trouble with role players outpowering him.
The Lakers already have their own elite athlete who lacks ball-handling ability, can knock down from range, and has shown signs of being an elite defender.
He got drafted in the lottery too.
His name is Wesley Johnson. When that thought enters your mind, even with all of his physical tools, it's easier for me to drop Wiggins down.
But guys like Embiid, Randle, Gordon, Parker? Gordon needs more seasoning, but he's developing a jumpshot Griffin is still trying to get. Marcus Smart is a Derek Fisher of a pitbull but with all of the physical tools.
Except for Wesley Johnson was 23 when he was drafted.
Joined: 10 Apr 2001 Posts: 65135 Location: Orange County, CA
Posted: Tue Dec 31, 2013 2:07 pm Post subject:
kaoss128 wrote:
Mike@LG wrote:
That list, you can't miss.
Understood that these guys aren't really men yet, but they're being put into that position, and it's not different from soccer or tennis or even F1 racing. Fortunately, they've done a few trips at a lower level in regards to international play, elite HS play, tournaments, etc. They have an idea of what they're heading into.
It's not like we don't want them all to succeed. We all do. We want them in the best positions to succeed. Being drafted by the wrong team doesn't help that situation.
Even with Parker, I may be able to excuse that man-defense if he keeps up the level of team defense and solid rebounding. But I don't like the idea of him needing repeated help or getting into foul trouble with role players outpowering him.
The Lakers already have their own elite athlete who lacks ball-handling ability, can knock down from range, and has shown signs of being an elite defender.
He got drafted in the lottery too.
His name is Wesley Johnson. When that thought enters your mind, even with all of his physical tools, it's easier for me to drop Wiggins down.
But guys like Embiid, Randle, Gordon, Parker? Gordon needs more seasoning, but he's developing a jumpshot Griffin is still trying to get. Marcus Smart is a Derek Fisher of a pitbull but with all of the physical tools.
Except for Wesley Johnson was 23 when he was drafted.
Agreed on age. Same principles. Even showed tremendous hope as an offensive prospect at Syracuse. _________________ Resident Car Nut.
After failing on big men like Bynum, up and down play from Pau, and not being able to sign Howard i think Mitch we go with anything but a C. Even Shaq became somewhat lazy and out of shape after a while. Big men don't seem to have that killer instinct like Guards and forwards do. If we can't get Bledsoe i think will draft a PG like Smart or Lavine if we end up in the top 5 .
Joined: 10 Apr 2001 Posts: 65135 Location: Orange County, CA
Posted: Tue Dec 31, 2013 3:03 pm Post subject:
Dave20 wrote:
After failing on big men like Bynum, up and down play from Pau, and not being able to sign Howard i think Mitch we go with anything but a C. Even Shaq became somewhat lazy and out of shape after a while. Big men don't seem to have that killer instinct like Guards and forwards do. If we can't get Bledsoe i think will draft a PG like Smart or Lavine if we end up in the top 5 .
I think it's different considering Embiid just started playing a couple of years ago.
Plus, he has a soccer and volleyball background. He's able to keep up his fitness with constructive recreational sports too.
Bynum burned himself out by working so hard his first 4 seasons.
Gasol burned himself out playing for Spain AND the Lakers.
Shaq burned himself out being int he playoffs and getting whacked on by players every year. _________________ Resident Car Nut.
After failing on big men like Bynum, up and down play from Pau, and not being able to sign Howard i think Mitch we go with anything but a C. Even Shaq became somewhat lazy and out of shape after a while. Big men don't seem to have that killer instinct like Guards and forwards do. If we can't get Bledsoe i think will draft a PG like Smart or Lavine if we end up in the top 5 .
I think it's different considering Embiid just started playing a couple of years ago.
Plus, he has a soccer and volleyball background. He's able to keep up his fitness with constructive recreational sports too.
Bynum burned himself out by working so hard his first 4 seasons.
Gasol burned himself out playing for Spain AND the Lakers.
Shaq burned himself out being int he playoffs and getting whacked on by players every year.
Embid is still too big of a risk were in a era of SF's and PG's we have to get one of those. Parker is the guy we need.
Joined: 10 Apr 2001 Posts: 65135 Location: Orange County, CA
Posted: Wed Jan 01, 2014 7:07 am Post subject:
Dave20 wrote:
Mike@LG wrote:
Dave20 wrote:
After failing on big men like Bynum, up and down play from Pau, and not being able to sign Howard i think Mitch we go with anything but a C. Even Shaq became somewhat lazy and out of shape after a while. Big men don't seem to have that killer instinct like Guards and forwards do. If we can't get Bledsoe i think will draft a PG like Smart or Lavine if we end up in the top 5 .
I think it's different considering Embiid just started playing a couple of years ago.
Plus, he has a soccer and volleyball background. He's able to keep up his fitness with constructive recreational sports too.
Bynum burned himself out by working so hard his first 4 seasons.
Gasol burned himself out playing for Spain AND the Lakers.
Shaq burned himself out being int he playoffs and getting whacked on by players every year.
Embid is still too big of a risk were in a era of SF's and PG's we have to get one of those. Parker is the guy we need.
I don't see how he's such a huge risk, honestly. Every player needs something to work on, including Parker.
Parker is the most polished offensive player, but he's an undersized 4, or too slow for SFs in this league. _________________ Resident Car Nut.
I'm a big man guy, I love C's. However if I were drafting in a position where I could pick anyone for the Lakers, I wouldn't go with Embiid.
Is Embiid even as good as DH was at the same age?
I recall a few years ago watching Anthony Davis in College a bit. He was better than Embiid, considerably. You could sense he was the unquestioned #1 guy in the draft. The modern big is Anthony Davis. Guys like Embiid, I'm not sure they will be #1 guy on the franchise.
If there isn't any true #1, I'd go with Embiid. However in this draft, I think there may be a few. In which case, I think Embiid is being hyped up based on his size and lack of big man talent in the NBA. This draft is too strong to use the #1 pick on a Center who doesn't have realistic potential to be a #1 guy on a team.
Ask yourself, is Embiid going to even get the oppportunity in today's PnR, lack of posting up, NBA to develop his game and be a great #1 guy? It's far more likely teams will use him as a PnR finisher, a rebounder, defender. I don't think I'd pick him over some of these other kids, who could be the next Wade, Harden, George or Anthony of the NBA. That's true #1's there.
He's more advanced than most centers his age and he's been playing the game for only three years. I don't think some people understand how much of a natural he is, his feel for the game, his footwork, his touch with both hands, his shooting form, his shot blocking ability, his passing ability. Center prospects like that don't come around very often, he's got the innate qualities, you put that in a 7' package with long arms and good athleticism, then you don't just have a prospect that's being overhyped because he's a big. He's still unpolished and more risky than Parker/Wiggins/Randle, but his upside is amazing and he's got the qualities that makes him a good calculated risk.
If I was a GM, and my team didn't already have a franchise C, I would take him first overall at this point, he's the only prospect that I feel confident will become a franchise 2-way player.
There's no question he's the guy you have to take if you get the #1 overall pick. However I don't see that happening.
More likely is that L.A. is somewhere around 6-7. At that point who do you take? Lavine and put him in this system and watch him fly by defenders for a decade?
I have to admit, my desire to get Embiid has more to do with who we can sign as free agents in the next 3-4 seasons and what kind of interior presence we're going to need to be contenders. Carmelo Anthony, Kevin Love, Kevin Durant, not to mention already having Kobe. Those are all perimeter players that could really use the presence inside.
But the more I think about it, I'd hate to be like the Blazers selecting Oden over Durant, and Sam Bowie over Jordan.
To hell with whoever we intend to sign as a FA, if the best player is a forward or a guard, I say we go ahead and take em. If we draft a perimeter player, we need to make sure they have heart and the desire to improve, like Paul George, because I believe just playing alongside Kobe and having him as their teammate is going to really expedite their development. They can train with him in the offseason, observe his preparations and his intensity, they'll be better players in the end.
If Wiggins has the heart and desire to improve, and he's there when we pick, I think that's who we should take. He has the most potential of anyone in the draft. I just get scared when I look at someone like Wes Johnson and then look at Wiggins. I hope by the end of the season we'll see him improve as a player. I really want to see what he can do as a ball handler.
I don't know if this is possible, but I think around the pre-draft, we should have Kobe observe the prospects and conduct the interviews, I bet he'll be able to read which ones have heart and which ones don't. _________________ A banana is killed every time a terrible thread or post is made. Save the bananas. Stop creating terrible posts!
Mike G Parker guarded Wiggins for most of the game and he didn't score on him. When Wiggins guarded Parker he just bullied him right to the basket. He was attacking the interior of the Kansas defense that Embid anchored. Parker has quick feet for his size he's not slow. Worst case for Parker is he's a young but bigger Paul Pierce. Best case a combination of Pierce, Melo, and Bird high efficiency offense.
Outside of Tony Allen, George, and Lebron there's really not any other great perimeter wing players. Durant has gotten better but he's above average but that's what i see in Parker. Parker is a guy that's gonna get 20-22 ppg 8 rpg 4 apg with high efficiency and play above average defense as a rookie. He'll get better playing next to Kobe as far as fundamentals of defense but he always has great effort.Can't really ask for anything more then that. Embid can be the next Olajuwan or the next injury riddled big man like Bynum and Oden. I would take the sure thing in Parker or a player like Smart first.
[quote="Dave20"]Mike G Parker guarded Wiggins for most of the game and he didn't score on him. When Wiggins guarded Parker he just bullied him right to the basket. He was attacking the interior of the Kansas defense that Embid anchored. Parker has quick feet for his size he's not slow. Worst case for Parker is he's a young but bigger Paul Pierce. Best case a combination of Pierce, Melo, and Bird high efficiency offense.
Outside of Tony Allen, George, and Lebron there's really not any other great perimeter wing defenders. Durant has gotten better but he's above average but that's what i see in Parker. Parker is a guy that's gonna get 20-22 ppg 8 rpg 4 apg with high efficiency and play above average defense as a rookie. He'll get better playing next to Kobe as far as fundamentals of defense but he always has great effort.Can't ask for anything more then that. Embid can be the next Olajuwan or the next injury riddled big man like Bynum and Oden. I would take the sure thing in Parker or a player like Smart
Embid can be the next Olajuwan or the next injury riddled big man like Bynum and Oden. I would take the sure thing in Parker or a player like Smart first.
Except Embiid has never had the injuries Bynum had. Oden had a couple of freak accidents but before he was hurt he was showing promise on the offensive end while already establishing himself as one of the premier defensive bigs.
Not taking a big because other big men are busts is what allowed Detriot to steal Drummond at 9 or Kings stealing Demarcus at 5. Look at the effect Roy Hibbert has on the game, and guys like Drummond and Demarcus can potentially offer the same type of defensive impact while being better offensive players.
The high premium on elite bigs is what causes players like Ekpe Udoh and Biyombo to get drafted early despite being raw. And Embiid has shown much more promise than all of them except Demarcus.
I do like Parker a lot, but I think its is wrong to dismiss Embiid because there are similar players that failed.
Joined: 10 Apr 2001 Posts: 65135 Location: Orange County, CA
Posted: Wed Jan 01, 2014 9:48 pm Post subject:
Dave20 wrote:
Mike G Parker guarded Wiggins for most of the game and he didn't score on him. When Wiggins guarded Parker he just bullied him right to the basket. He was attacking the interior of the Kansas defense that Embid anchored. Parker has quick feet for his size he's not slow. Worst case for Parker is he's a young but bigger Paul Pierce. Best case a combination of Pierce, Melo, and Bird high efficiency offense.
Outside of Tony Allen, George, and Lebron there's really not any other great perimeter wing players. Durant has gotten better but he's above average but that's what i see in Parker. Parker is a guy that's gonna get 20-22 ppg 8 rpg 4 apg with high efficiency and play above average defense as a rookie. He'll get better playing next to Kobe as far as fundamentals of defense but he always has great effort.Can't really ask for anything more then that. Embid can be the next Olajuwan or the next injury riddled big man like Bynum and Oden. I would take the sure thing in Parker or a player like Smart first.
I see that you have strong opinions, but I definitely care about perimeter wing defense. Why do you think not all Laker fans want Carmelo Anthony? It isn't just the black hole offense.
How about Parker getting whooped on by non-NBA prospects?
That defense is so bad, it puts help defense from teammates in poor position. _________________ Resident Car Nut.
I'm a big man guy, I love C's. However if I were drafting in a position where I could pick anyone for the Lakers, I wouldn't go with Embiid.
Is Embiid even as good as DH was at the same age?
I recall a few years ago watching Anthony Davis in College a bit. He was better than Embiid, considerably. You could sense he was the unquestioned #1 guy in the draft. The modern big is Anthony Davis. Guys like Embiid, I'm not sure they will be #1 guy on the franchise.
If there isn't any true #1, I'd go with Embiid. However in this draft, I think there may be a few. In which case, I think Embiid is being hyped up based on his size and lack of big man talent in the NBA. This draft is too strong to use the #1 pick on a Center who doesn't have realistic potential to be a #1 guy on a team.
Ask yourself, is Embiid going to even get the oppportunity in today's PnR, lack of posting up, NBA to develop his game and be a great #1 guy? It's far more likely teams will use him as a PnR finisher, a rebounder, defender. I don't think I'd pick him over some of these other kids, who could be the next Wade, Harden, George or Anthony of the NBA. That's true #1's there.
Spurs went to finals with old man Duncan anchoring the d, and while George is a great player, I'd argue Pacers success has just as much to do with the Hibbert/West combo as George. Look at how bad the Grizzlies look without DPOY Marc Gasol. A stretch four is important, but most of the elite teams all still played elite defense. Out of the players that are ranked that high, I can see Wiggins and Embiid being potential elite two way players.
Offensively I don't think Embiid will be as potent as the others but he has the most potential to be a potential DPOY while being able to contribute offensively. The rest is if you can build a team around him.
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