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DancingBarry
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Joined: 07 Sep 2001
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 Posted: Sat Feb 04, 2006 12:14 am Post subject: |
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| ARCADE wrote: | | DancingBarry wrote: | | ARCADE wrote: | That fact that Devin Green is on our roster over JJ is baffling.  |
Had Profit not ruptured his achilles... Green would not be on the roster. He would have been dumped for Turiaf. |
but Ronny Turiaf's return wasn't a guarantee when we had the "business transaction with Charolette" that sent JJ packing. |
Actually, I think they had an idea that there was a good chance Turiaf could be returning. I think I posted this same thing when we made the JJ trade that it was really a move to clear space for Ronny down the line. Green's contract wasn't guaranteed until Jan. 10. Profit's injury changed things up. |
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RYZ
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Joined: 02 Jul 2003
Posts: 1393
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| Posted: Sat Feb 04, 2006 12:20 am Post subject: |
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| DancingBarry wrote: | JJ certainly gave a crap. He went to the bigman camp to specifically work on his Triangle footwork in the summer. He just had a poor preseason and we were stacked at his position with the idea of moving Lamar down there full time and George healthy.
The "no idea" thing from Phil is stupifying, however. |
Yeah, it is. Speak for yourself, Phil; plenty of people knew about Jumaine Jones. Considering you once coached against him in the finals and he was a Laker last year (when purportedly you watched a lot of Laker games), you should have known too. It's funny that Ruben Patterson's name came up in this thread, because this situation sounds strikingly familiar to Phil's "I wished I'd known about Patterson" situation after they released him in 1999. |
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THE_SHOES
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Joined: 12 Apr 2001
Posts: 29556
Location: Taiwan
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| Posted: Sat Feb 04, 2006 3:25 am Post subject: |
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| DancingBarry wrote: | JJ certainly gave a crap. He went to the bigman camp to specifically work on his Triangle footwork in the summer. He just had a poor preseason and we were stacked at his position with the idea of moving Lamar down there full time and George healthy.
The "no idea" thing from Phil is stupifying, however. |
You could easily conclude from this that it was the triangle experience of George and, Luke that made JJ the odd man out... Luke didn't even play last year under Rudy or, Hamblin. Devean was in the hospital all season so what else could it be. Like you though DB I can't imagine why Phil puts himself on record as having known nothing about Jones...
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VonWafer&KobeBryantFa
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Location: Iowa
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| Posted: Sat Feb 04, 2006 6:29 am Post subject: |
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| Ya Mitch is pretty much the biggest Screw up ever. |
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CabinCreek44
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Joined: 16 Apr 2001
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| Posted: Sat Feb 04, 2006 8:15 am Post subject: |
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Mitch is the guy who originally acquired Jumaine Jones.
Some of you need to learn to decipher Philspeak. Obviously, his comment had the intended effect..."Why did we get rid of this guy, why didn't somebody tell me how good he was?"
When we got rid of the guy, it was said that he was "not a Phil type guy", "not a triangle-type player" blah blah blah.
If Phil had wanted the guy, he would still be here. End of story. |
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wolfpaclaker
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Joined: 29 May 2002
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| Posted: Sat Feb 04, 2006 9:11 am Post subject: |
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What people ignore.
When it was time to shape out the roster at traininig camp it looked like this.
Starters/Reserves
C Chris Mihm Andrew Bynum Slava Medvedenko
PF Kwame Brown Brian Cook
SF Lamar Odom Devean George Luke Walton Jumaine Jones
SG Kobe Bryant Laron Profit Von Wafer Devin Green
PG Smush Parker Sasha Vujacic
While Jumaine - And did say this at the time and all summer - was a more consistent role player than Devean George, he was NOT experienced the Triangle.
Phil always prefers his old players and guys that have some experience in Tri as opposed to players that have NONE.
JJ had none. DG and Luke did.
As for why they kept Laron and Devin over JJ - Simple. The Lakers need guys in the backcourt more than at SF. JJ wasn't up against them. He was up against Walton and George - who were Phil's guys.
Finally - Never let Phil's comments get to you. He is always saying outlandish things that make no sense.
Kobe "Sometimes Phil speaks in English, but you still don't understand what he means"
PC - 2004 July
Can't agree anymore with numero 8  |
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Pappy
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| Posted: Sat Feb 04, 2006 9:13 am Post subject: |
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could be more to all this? during an interview last year on KCAL, Jeanie was asked (before Phil made a decision to come back) if her and PJ watched games togather at home and what he thought of the players the Lakers had assembled. I remember jeanie making a point of how Phil really liked JJ (as he was the one player she singled out in the interview) at that time I thought JJ was safe and I was relived.
it could be that Phil went with his triangle "savey" players during camp in trying to create stability from the start and JJ wasnt going tp provide that?...in any event, I agree with the opinion that someone is passing the buck, or making an excuse, or slappin someones face? Phil does look a bit ignorant in his response! Phil's documented blindness regarding slava, George, Luke, and Cook, probably allowed him to think the team would be better under his guidance and didnt think we'd need JJ's spark?
It does still boggle ones mind that Frank Hamblin was the head coach last year and saw JJ first hand, yet being an assistant coach this year, he failed to tell phil how JJ could help the team?....something else is definetly happening here, or these guys are all a bunch of freakin idiots |
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wolfpaclaker
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| Posted: Sat Feb 04, 2006 9:18 am Post subject: |
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^
Pappy you have to look at who JJ was being matched up against.
It was DG even moreso than Walton. Because according to Mitch, Walton is considered a guard on this team, offensively.
So it came down to the backup SF - we were looking at DG vs JJ. Factor in that DG has had good success with Phil in the past and knows the Tri really well.
How soon people forget that just a week ago there were threads to sign DG to a 9 million dollar extension.
Relax people. It's one game. JJ is a good role player (And i said so in the summer that he was more consistent than DG) but George has had some huge games on BOTH ends for us this season.
To tell you the truth, in big games I rather have DG. He knows how to step up and come PO time, I think y'all will see that George was the right decision. JJ may be more consistent offensively, but DG is the only guy on this team apart from Kobe that can really lock a guy down on the perimeter. That will be valuable in the PO's .... |
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Freakout
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| Posted: Sat Feb 04, 2006 9:24 am Post subject: |
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| wolfpaclaker wrote: | ^
Pappy you have to look at who JJ was being matched up against.
It was DG even moreso than Walton. Because according to Mitch, Walton is considered a guard on this team, offensively.
So it came down to the backup SF - we were looking at DG vs JJ. Factor in that DG has had good success with Phil in the past and knows the Tri really well.
How soon people forget that just a week ago there were threads to sign DG to a 9 million dollar extension.
Relax people. It's one game. JJ is a good role player (And i said so in the summer that he was more consistent than DG) but George has had some huge games on BOTH ends for us this season.
To tell you the truth, in big games I rather have DG. He knows how to step up and come PO time, I think y'all will see that George was the right decision. JJ may be more consistent offensively, but DG is the only guy on this team apart from Kobe that can really lock a guy down on the perimeter. That will be valuable in the PO's .... |
You put your best player on the floor. JJ > DG.
Seems the same (bleep) is starting over from Phil's last stint. Triangle scrubs are played before talent. |
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LA_Lakers_Rule
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| Posted: Sat Feb 04, 2006 9:27 am Post subject: |
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It is clear that Phil prefered George and Luke over Jones before the season started, the former two players were viewed as Triangle type players by Phil.
At this point in the season, Phil's view might be just a tad different. Thus the comment Phil made was illustrating this possibility along with simply complementing Jones on his play in this game and this season in general.
Also it could be a vailed expression as to how Phil might have assumed that George or Luke (especially) would be playing at a little higher level of play this season. Thus this comment could be the result of comparing the players season this year that were kept in contrast to Jones's season this year. In other words, maybe Phil's surprising comment is not so much a surprise of how Jones has been playing better than expected than it is that maybe a little more was expected from the players kept on the roster instead of Jones. Jones's stats are not that far out of line with how he was viewed as much as possibly Luke and Walton's stats are not quite up to what was expected and thus the comment from Phil.
The fact is Mitch is responsible for acquiring Jones in the first place (as CabinCreek44 pointed out) and if Phil wanted to keep Jones at the beginning of the season we'd have him now. Certainly the buck stops at Mitch's desk, but the fact also remains that Mitch is expected to work with his coach as far as the role players wanted on the team. So I'm sure in the end that Phil was involved to some degree in decissions on who stays and who doesn't.
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Good judgment comes from experience and a lot of that comes from bad judgment. - Will Rogers ...  |
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wolfpaclaker
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| Posted: Sat Feb 04, 2006 9:28 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | You put your best player on the floor. JJ > DG |
JJ is a better shooter than George. So you can argue he's a better offensive fit.
But as for defense, I don't agree with that. George is a quality defender. While Jones is solid defensively, I don't think he's a lockdown guy.
| Quote: | | Seems the same (bleep) is starting over from Phil's last stint. Triangle scrubs are played before talent |
And so around this time last season when almost EVERYONE on the board was parading for Phil to comeback - did you NOT see this coming with the package that is Phillip Jackson?
Phil will never ever change. We must accept that he is always going to pick players that know the Triangle or fit it over anything else. |
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audioaxes
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| Posted: Sat Feb 04, 2006 9:30 am Post subject: |
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also PJ isnt the only one recanting
i remember when JJ was traded, most ppl on these boards didnt really resist the trade and even defended it as him being the one to go since luke/dg had triangle experience
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Freakout
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| Posted: Sat Feb 04, 2006 9:46 am Post subject: |
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| wolfpaclaker wrote: | | Quote: | | You put your best player on the floor. JJ > DG |
JJ is a better shooter than George. So you can argue he's a better offensive fit.
But as for defense, I don't agree with that. George is a quality defender. While Jones is solid defensively, I don't think he's a lockdown guy.
| Quote: | | Seems the same (bleep) is starting over from Phil's last stint. Triangle scrubs are played before talent |
And so around this time last season when almost EVERYONE on the board was parading for Phil to comeback - did you NOT see this coming with the package that is Phillip Jackson?
Phil will never ever change. We must accept that he is always going to pick players that know the Triangle or fit it over anything else. |
I think George has the ability to be a better defender. The problem is his defense is as inconsistant as Odom's offense. From a view point of having a reliable defender from game to game JJ gets the nod in my opinion.
As for Phil, I know he prefers experienced players and I understand why. Now it's up to Mitch to get him experienced, reliable, athletic players. I don't see many options for Phil right now. Devin Green sucks, Wafer has shown little and is often OOC, Luke knows the TRI but brings hardly anything else, Kwame might as well be playing with stubs from hands, Sasha sucks, and Parker at best is a backup. The only young guy on the team that deserves more minutes is Andrew. |
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wolfpaclaker
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| Posted: Sat Feb 04, 2006 10:16 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | I think George has the ability to be a better defender. The problem is his defense is as inconsistant as Odom's offense. From a view point of having a reliable defender from game to game JJ gets the nod in my opinion |
In the polls/debates last summer I argued for JJ. So if it were up to me, I probably would have gone with JJ considering he's cheaper and came off a good season while DG was coming off an injury season.
But DG has had a good season IMO. He is just a role player. People may think he's LO or better, but he's not. Considering that he's a role player, I think he's done well. I don't expect DG to put up starting numbers.
| Quote: | | As for Phil, I know he prefers experienced players and I understand why. Now it's up to Mitch to get him experienced, reliable, athletic players. I don't see many options for Phil right now. Devin Green sucks, Wafer has shown little and is often OOC, Luke knows the TRI but brings hardly anything else, Kwame might as well be playing with stubs from hands, Sasha sucks, and Parker at best is a backup. The only young guy on the team that deserves more minutes is Andrew |
Well, I think Chris has done well. The young players that show promise are Andrew Bynum, Chris Mihm, Smush Parker and to an extent Sasha Vujacic.
While our roster is very weak in regards to starting talent - It's a really young roster too. Meaning there's a possibility some of these players (especially Drew) get better over the next 1-2 years. |
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Shapecity
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Joined: 13 Apr 2005
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| Posted: Sat Feb 04, 2006 10:20 am Post subject: |
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| CabinCreek44 wrote: | Mitch is the guy who originally acquired Jumaine Jones.
Some of you need to learn to decipher Philspeak. Obviously, his comment had the intended effect..."Why did we get rid of this guy, why didn't somebody tell me how good he was?"
When we got rid of the guy, it was said that he was "not a Phil type guy", "not a triangle-type player" blah blah blah.
If Phil had wanted the guy, he would still be here. End of story. |
If I remember correctly, the Lakers settled for JJ, after Payton threatened not to report to the Celtics. Originally the deal with Boston included Banks, but the Lakers ended up with JJ instead. |
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uberzev
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| Posted: Sat Feb 04, 2006 10:23 am Post subject: |
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JJ actually was our best player last year in +/-. 
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wolfpaclaker
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| Posted: Sat Feb 04, 2006 10:27 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | but the Lakers ended up with JJ instead |
And the Lakers chose JJ because they must've seen something in him they liked.
Don't think the Lakers won't scout even the throw ins.
The reason Profit and Parker were better than expected is because the Lakers scouted them before they aquired them.
The guys in the FO do not sign anyone without knowing what their games are all about. |
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Shapecity
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| Posted: Sat Feb 04, 2006 10:44 am Post subject: |
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| wolfpaclaker wrote: | | Quote: | | but the Lakers ended up with JJ instead |
And the Lakers chose JJ because they must've seen something in him they liked.
Don't think the Lakers won't scout even the throw ins.
The reason Profit and Parker were better than expected is because the Lakers scouted them before they aquired them.
The guys in the FO do not sign anyone without knowing what their games are all about. |
So I guess this means are scouts are bipolar? One season they like the guy, the next summer he's not a good fit. |
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wolfpaclaker
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| Posted: Sat Feb 04, 2006 11:11 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | So I guess this means are scouts are bipolar? One season they like the guy, the next summer he's not a good fit |
No.
It just means that they scout everyone they aquire.
At training camp, they felt George would give them more than Jones. It was ofcourse Phil that underestimated Jones and told Mitch I rather have George.
If he's regretting it now, it's his own fault.
Personally, I think George and Jones are role players. Both wouldn't be Lakers longer than this season and atleast with Jones we might draft a 2nd round pick that could be with the Lakers for a couple of years.
Remember, Turiaf is 2nd rounder. Walton was a 2nd rounder.
Scouting is better based on this last year. If they draft smart, they can get something with that pick. |
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Shapecity
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| Posted: Sat Feb 04, 2006 11:35 am Post subject: |
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Or maybe it's the fact it came down to either Jiri Welsch or Jumaine Jones because those were the only player's who matched salary wise to get the deal done.
JJ was a no brainer between the two.
The problem we consistently have in the FO is accountability. We don't really know who's making these decisions and the reasons they give usually don't have an ounce of common sense involved.
Who's decision was it to trade JJ?
Was it PJax? Was it Mitch? Was it Jimmy? |
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wolfpaclaker
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| Posted: Sat Feb 04, 2006 11:37 am Post subject: |
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^
It was Mitch's decision, but I'm sure he had input from Jimmy and Phil. |
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CabinCreek44
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| Posted: Sat Feb 04, 2006 11:38 am Post subject: |
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| Shapecity wrote: | | CabinCreek44 wrote: | Mitch is the guy who originally acquired Jumaine Jones.
Some of you need to learn to decipher Philspeak. Obviously, his comment had the intended effect..."Why did we get rid of this guy, why didn't somebody tell me how good he was?"
When we got rid of the guy, it was said that he was "not a Phil type guy", "not a triangle-type player" blah blah blah.
If Phil had wanted the guy, he would still be here. End of story. |
If I remember correctly, the Lakers settled for JJ, after Payton threatened not to report to the Celtics. Originally the deal with Boston included Banks, but the Lakers ended up with JJ instead. |
That's true. But that doesn't change what I said. Mitch acquired the guy.
If Phil had wanted the guy here, he would have been here. For him to now say "we didn't know how good he was", he's either winding someone up, or setting someone else up (Mitch) to look like the bad guy.
The fact is, if Phil "didn't know how good" a player was that was on his roster going into training camp, whose responsibility is that? |
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Shapecity
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| Posted: Sat Feb 04, 2006 11:51 am Post subject: |
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| CabinCreek44 wrote: | | Shapecity wrote: | | CabinCreek44 wrote: | Mitch is the guy who originally acquired Jumaine Jones.
Some of you need to learn to decipher Philspeak. Obviously, his comment had the intended effect..."Why did we get rid of this guy, why didn't somebody tell me how good he was?"
When we got rid of the guy, it was said that he was "not a Phil type guy", "not a triangle-type player" blah blah blah.
If Phil had wanted the guy, he would still be here. End of story. |
If I remember correctly, the Lakers settled for JJ, after Payton threatened not to report to the Celtics. Originally the deal with Boston included Banks, but the Lakers ended up with JJ instead. |
That's true. But that doesn't change what I said. Mitch acquired the guy.
If Phil had wanted the guy here, he would have been here. For him to now say "we didn't know how good he was", he's either winding someone up, or setting someone else up (Mitch) to look like the bad guy.
The fact is, if Phil "didn't know how good" a player was that was on his roster going into training camp, whose responsibility is that? |
That's the problem, we don't know who is ultimately responsible.
Was Mitch and the coaching staff not strong enough to convince PJax he's a good fit for the team or did PJax under estimate JJ's ability? |
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DzLaker
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Location: Sacramento, CA
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| Posted: Sat Feb 04, 2006 12:09 pm Post subject: |
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| Shapecity wrote: | | CabinCreek44 wrote: | | Shapecity wrote: | | CabinCreek44 wrote: | Mitch is the guy who originally acquired Jumaine Jones.
Some of you need to learn to decipher Philspeak. Obviously, his comment had the intended effect..."Why did we get rid of this guy, why didn't somebody tell me how good he was?"
When we got rid of the guy, it was said that he was "not a Phil type guy", "not a triangle-type player" blah blah blah.
If Phil had wanted the guy, he would still be here. End of story. |
If I remember correctly, the Lakers settled for JJ, after Payton threatened not to report to the Celtics. Originally the deal with Boston included Banks, but the Lakers ended up with JJ instead. |
That's true. But that doesn't change what I said. Mitch acquired the guy.
If Phil had wanted the guy here, he would have been here. For him to now say "we didn't know how good he was", he's either winding someone up, or setting someone else up (Mitch) to look like the bad guy.
The fact is, if Phil "didn't know how good" a player was that was on his roster going into training camp, whose responsibility is that? |
That's the problem, we don't know who is ultimately responsible.
Was Mitch and the coaching staff not strong enough to convince PJax he's a good fit for the team or did PJax under estimate JJ's ability? |
I think this one squarely rest on PJax's shoulders.
I think Jackson has to have his triangle savvy players and pushes extremely hard for that. Luke obviously should have been let go and many said that at the time.
Last year they ran the triangle for half a season and clearly JJ was the better player. |
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CabinCreek44
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Joined: 16 Apr 2001
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| Posted: Sat Feb 04, 2006 8:18 pm Post subject: |
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| Shapecity wrote: | | CabinCreek44 wrote: | | Shapecity wrote: | | CabinCreek44 wrote: | Mitch is the guy who originally acquired Jumaine Jones.
Some of you need to learn to decipher Philspeak. Obviously, his comment had the intended effect..."Why did we get rid of this guy, why didn't somebody tell me how good he was?"
When we got rid of the guy, it was said that he was "not a Phil type guy", "not a triangle-type player" blah blah blah.
If Phil had wanted the guy, he would still be here. End of story. |
If I remember correctly, the Lakers settled for JJ, after Payton threatened not to report to the Celtics. Originally the deal with Boston included Banks, but the Lakers ended up with JJ instead. |
That's true. But that doesn't change what I said. Mitch acquired the guy.
If Phil had wanted the guy here, he would have been here. For him to now say "we didn't know how good he was", he's either winding someone up, or setting someone else up (Mitch) to look like the bad guy.
The fact is, if Phil "didn't know how good" a player was that was on his roster going into training camp, whose responsibility is that? |
That's the problem, we don't know who is ultimately responsible.
Was Mitch and the coaching staff not strong enough to convince PJax he's a good fit for the team or did PJax under estimate JJ's ability? |
They basically gave the guy away for nothing. That makes me believe the coach told the GM "We don't need this guy you might as well get whatever you can for him".
I have a difficult time envisioning ANY scenario by which Phil Jackson, the returning conquering all-knowing god, would have lost a squabble over keeping a player with the GM who probably makes 20% of what the coach is making. |
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