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ringfinger
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 Posted: Tue Jan 05, 2016 1:27 pm Post subject: |
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| yinoma2001 wrote: | As someone pointed out, the DA's theory in Steven's case was he killed her in the garage; in his nephew's case, he argued she was killed in the bedroom.
HUH? |
And no physical evidence in either.
Legally, can he do that? I also remembered that in the film, one of the attorneys noted that in his closing, Kratz (the DA) said "...this proves only ONE MAN could have committed this crime."
But if that were true, he'd have no case against Dassey. |
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yinoma2001
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| Posted: Tue Jan 05, 2016 1:52 pm Post subject: |
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| ringfinger wrote: | | yinoma2001 wrote: | As someone pointed out, the DA's theory in Steven's case was he killed her in the garage; in his nephew's case, he argued she was killed in the bedroom.
HUH? |
And no physical evidence in either.
Legally, can he do that? I also remembered that in the film, one of the attorneys noted that in his closing, Kratz (the DA) said "...this proves only ONE MAN could have committed this crime."
But if that were true, he'd have no case against Dassey. |
Legally, yes.
Kratz tainted the jury pool with his public press conferences.
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kikanga
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| Posted: Tue Jan 05, 2016 2:03 pm Post subject: |
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| ringfinger wrote: | | kikanga wrote: | | Splash1 wrote: | | The question I have is; who really killed Teresa Halbach (if not Steven Avery)? |
The same guy it always is. The creepy ex boyfriend with stalker tendencies who was sweating on the stand. Ryan Hillegas.
He hacked into her voicemail after her murder!
He organized the search party that found the car on Avery's property!
And then was overly defensive when someone asked if it was him who found the vehicle personally.
#4 on this list. http://decider.com/2015/12/31/the-5-best-making-a-murderer-fan-theories/
I also think Mike Halbach (Theresa's brother) might know something he isn't saying. LINK |
There's way more evidence to link Steven Avery than what you have on Hillegas.
This was a tough one. It's impossible to know, based on the evidence in the film, if Steven did it or not. There are some huge red flags that suggest Avery might have done it. But then, where was the physical evidence? I mean, they dug up the concrete to test it for DNA and couldn't find any even.
But, there is no doubt in my mind he did not receive a very fair trial. And the conduct of the police was downright frightening.
Also, Ken Kratz was the DA and he just seemed like a slimeball. No surprise he was caught sexting a female victim of violence and if you read some of his texts, they're really just creepy. |
Of course there's more evidence on Avery than Hillegas.
Hillegas was never even treated like a suspect. There was a laser focus on Avery from the start of the investigation IMO.
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ringfinger
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| Posted: Tue Jan 05, 2016 2:04 pm Post subject: |
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| kikanga wrote: | | ringfinger wrote: | | kikanga wrote: | | Splash1 wrote: | | The question I have is; who really killed Teresa Halbach (if not Steven Avery)? |
The same guy it always is. The creepy ex boyfriend with stalker tendencies who was sweating on the stand. Ryan Hillegas.
He hacked into her voicemail after her murder!
He organized the search party that found the car on Avery's property!
And then was overly defensive when someone asked if it was him who found the vehicle personally.
#4 on this list. http://decider.com/2015/12/31/the-5-best-making-a-murderer-fan-theories/
I also think Mike Halbach (Theresa's brother) might know something he isn't saying. LINK |
There's way more evidence to link Steven Avery than what you have on Hillegas.
This was a tough one. It's impossible to know, based on the evidence in the film, if Steven did it or not. There are some huge red flags that suggest Avery might have done it. But then, where was the physical evidence? I mean, they dug up the concrete to test it for DNA and couldn't find any even.
But, there is no doubt in my mind he did not receive a very fair trial. And the conduct of the police was downright frightening.
Also, Ken Kratz was the DA and he just seemed like a slimeball. No surprise he was caught sexting a female victim of violence and if you read some of his texts, they're really just creepy. |
Of course there's more evidence on Avery than Hillegas.
Hillegas was never even treated like a suspect. There was a laser focus on Avery from the start of the investigation IMO. |
Then it wasn't Hillegas, as you asserted. |
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ringfinger
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| Posted: Tue Jan 05, 2016 2:06 pm Post subject: |
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| yinoma2001 wrote: | | ringfinger wrote: | | yinoma2001 wrote: | As someone pointed out, the DA's theory in Steven's case was he killed her in the garage; in his nephew's case, he argued she was killed in the bedroom.
HUH? |
And no physical evidence in either.
Legally, can he do that? I also remembered that in the film, one of the attorneys noted that in his closing, Kratz (the DA) said "...this proves only ONE MAN could have committed this crime."
But if that were true, he'd have no case against Dassey. |
Legally, yes.
Kratz tainted the jury pool with his public press conferences. |
Don't know that I have ever seen a DA do that. Well before the trial, talk, in certain terms, about what exactly happened and who, basing his claim entirely on the words of below average intelligence teenager who clearly could be manipulated to say almost anything and had no understanding of the impact of what he was doing. |
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kikanga
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| Posted: Tue Jan 05, 2016 2:06 pm Post subject: |
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| dont_be_a_wuss wrote: | | kikanga wrote: | | Splash1 wrote: | | The question I have is; who really killed Teresa Halbach (if not Steven Avery)? |
The same guy it always is. The creepy ex boyfriend with stalker tendencies who was sweating on the stand. Ryan Hillegas.
He hacked into her voicemail after her murder!
He organized the search party that found the car on Avery's property!
And then was overly defensive when someone asked if it was him who found the vehicle personally.
#4 on this list. http://decider.com/2015/12/31/the-5-best-making-a-murderer-fan-theories/
I also think Mike Halbach (Theresa's brother) might know something he isn't saying. LINK |
Looking at the phone records that were held out of the film, it looks possible that Steven could have been a stalker of hers. He called her multiple times that day from blocked numbers, and also was reported to call auto trader using a different name and asking for her because she had requested not to go to his property again after he creeped her out, answering the door in a towel. |
Ya it's interesting to see the how the producers of Making a Murderer respond to the Ken Kratz email you posted. That is alot of information left out of a 10 hour documentary.
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kikanga
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| Posted: Tue Jan 05, 2016 2:13 pm Post subject: |
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| ringfinger wrote: | | kikanga wrote: | | ringfinger wrote: | | kikanga wrote: | | Splash1 wrote: | | The question I have is; who really killed Teresa Halbach (if not Steven Avery)? |
The same guy it always is. The creepy ex boyfriend with stalker tendencies who was sweating on the stand. Ryan Hillegas.
He hacked into her voicemail after her murder!
He organized the search party that found the car on Avery's property!
And then was overly defensive when someone asked if it was him who found the vehicle personally.
#4 on this list. http://decider.com/2015/12/31/the-5-best-making-a-murderer-fan-theories/
I also think Mike Halbach (Theresa's brother) might know something he isn't saying. LINK |
There's way more evidence to link Steven Avery than what you have on Hillegas.
This was a tough one. It's impossible to know, based on the evidence in the film, if Steven did it or not. There are some huge red flags that suggest Avery might have done it. But then, where was the physical evidence? I mean, they dug up the concrete to test it for DNA and couldn't find any even.
But, there is no doubt in my mind he did not receive a very fair trial. And the conduct of the police was downright frightening.
Also, Ken Kratz was the DA and he just seemed like a slimeball. No surprise he was caught sexting a female victim of violence and if you read some of his texts, they're really just creepy. |
Of course there's more evidence on Avery than Hillegas.
Hillegas was never even treated like a suspect. There was a laser focus on Avery from the start of the investigation IMO. |
Then it wasn't Hillegas, as you asserted. |
No I'm saying Hillegas is just like Gregory Allen in the Penny Beernsten case...not investigated but guilty.
http://imgur.com/Hcxe7Xm
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ringfinger
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| Posted: Tue Jan 05, 2016 2:41 pm Post subject: |
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| kikanga wrote: | | ringfinger wrote: | | kikanga wrote: | | ringfinger wrote: | | kikanga wrote: | | Splash1 wrote: | | The question I have is; who really killed Teresa Halbach (if not Steven Avery)? |
The same guy it always is. The creepy ex boyfriend with stalker tendencies who was sweating on the stand. Ryan Hillegas.
He hacked into her voicemail after her murder!
He organized the search party that found the car on Avery's property!
And then was overly defensive when someone asked if it was him who found the vehicle personally.
#4 on this list. http://decider.com/2015/12/31/the-5-best-making-a-murderer-fan-theories/
I also think Mike Halbach (Theresa's brother) might know something he isn't saying. LINK |
There's way more evidence to link Steven Avery than what you have on Hillegas.
This was a tough one. It's impossible to know, based on the evidence in the film, if Steven did it or not. There are some huge red flags that suggest Avery might have done it. But then, where was the physical evidence? I mean, they dug up the concrete to test it for DNA and couldn't find any even.
But, there is no doubt in my mind he did not receive a very fair trial. And the conduct of the police was downright frightening.
Also, Ken Kratz was the DA and he just seemed like a slimeball. No surprise he was caught sexting a female victim of violence and if you read some of his texts, they're really just creepy. |
Of course there's more evidence on Avery than Hillegas.
Hillegas was never even treated like a suspect. There was a laser focus on Avery from the start of the investigation IMO. |
Then it wasn't Hillegas, as you asserted. |
No I'm saying Hillegas is just like Gregory Allen in the Penny Beernsten case...not investigated but guilty.
http://imgur.com/Hcxe7Xm |
There's no evidence to suggest Hillegas was guilty.
Gregory Allen was guilty via physical evidence (DNA). |
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frijolero01
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| Posted: Tue Jan 05, 2016 3:21 pm Post subject: |
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| Oh, man. Poor kid. They took advantage of a dumb kid and made him fabricate the story so they can win their case. The way people manipulate the law is disgusting. |
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sickside323
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| Posted: Tue Jan 05, 2016 3:30 pm Post subject: |
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| ringfinger wrote: | There's no evidence to suggest Hillegas was guilty.
Gregory Allen was guilty via physical evidence (DNA). |
What he's trying to say is that there isn't any evidence against Hillegas because they haven't looked for it.
I'm not sure how I feel about that, but I think that's what he's getting at. |
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ringfinger
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| Posted: Tue Jan 05, 2016 3:58 pm Post subject: |
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| sickside323 wrote: | | ringfinger wrote: | There's no evidence to suggest Hillegas was guilty.
Gregory Allen was guilty via physical evidence (DNA). |
What he's trying to say is that there isn't any evidence against Hillegas because they haven't looked for it.
I'm not sure how I feel about that, but I think that's what he's getting at. |
He said "...Hillegas is just like Gregory Allen ... not investigated but guilty."
I completely agree that they didn't pursue any other suspects. And, that they should have pursued further, some of the other people in her life.
But I completely disagree, based at least on what was revealed in the documentary, that Hillegas was ANYTHING remotely close to "guilty" of the murder of Theresa Halbach. |
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kikanga
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| Posted: Tue Jan 05, 2016 5:16 pm Post subject: |
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| ringfinger wrote: | | sickside323 wrote: | | ringfinger wrote: | There's no evidence to suggest Hillegas was guilty.
Gregory Allen was guilty via physical evidence (DNA). |
What he's trying to say is that there isn't any evidence against Hillegas because they haven't looked for it.
I'm not sure how I feel about that, but I think that's what he's getting at. |
He said "...Hillegas is just like Gregory Allen ... not investigated but guilty."
I completely agree that they didn't pursue any other suspects. And, that they should have pursued further, some of the other people in her life.
But I completely disagree, based at least on what was revealed in the documentary, that Hillegas was ANYTHING remotely close to "guilty" of the murder of Theresa Halbach. |
You're right. I'm being harsh. And dramatic.
How about this instead. If Hillegas was treated as a suspect and investigated as thoroughly as Steven Avery was, I think the evidence from that investigation would suggest he's guilty.
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dont_be_a_wuss
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| Posted: Tue Jan 05, 2016 6:10 pm Post subject: |
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| yinoma2001 wrote: | As someone pointed out, the DA's theory in Steven's case was he killed her in the garage; in his nephew's case, he argued she was killed in the bedroom.
HUH? |
Brendan's first story told on Feb 27th has Steven telling Brendan he stabbed her in the car. March 1st, he says it happened in a lot of different places, it was a 4 hour interview and it was very inconsistent. He said she was stabbed in the bedroom, and shot in the head and body on the floor of the garage. One time he says he stabbed her in the belly, later he says he slit her throat. The kid is all over the place. Hard to say that because of his story we know or don't know any details. |
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dont_be_a_wuss
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| Posted: Tue Jan 05, 2016 6:12 pm Post subject: |
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| kikanga wrote: | | ringfinger wrote: | | sickside323 wrote: | | ringfinger wrote: | There's no evidence to suggest Hillegas was guilty.
Gregory Allen was guilty via physical evidence (DNA). |
What he's trying to say is that there isn't any evidence against Hillegas because they haven't looked for it.
I'm not sure how I feel about that, but I think that's what he's getting at. |
He said "...Hillegas is just like Gregory Allen ... not investigated but guilty."
I completely agree that they didn't pursue any other suspects. And, that they should have pursued further, some of the other people in her life.
But I completely disagree, based at least on what was revealed in the documentary, that Hillegas was ANYTHING remotely close to "guilty" of the murder of Theresa Halbach. |
You're right. I'm being harsh. And dramatic.
How about this instead. If Hillegas was treated as a suspect and investigated as thoroughly as Steven Avery was, I think the evidence from that investigation would suggest he's guilty. |
Personally I think there would be much more reasonable doubt in convicting Hillegas. Maybe the judge was being unfair, but the defense could not satisfy the criteria for introducing third parties in his opinion. |
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dont_be_a_wuss
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| Posted: Tue Jan 05, 2016 6:17 pm Post subject: |
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| kikanga wrote: | | dont_be_a_wuss wrote: | | kikanga wrote: | | Splash1 wrote: | | The question I have is; who really killed Teresa Halbach (if not Steven Avery)? |
The same guy it always is. The creepy ex boyfriend with stalker tendencies who was sweating on the stand. Ryan Hillegas.
He hacked into her voicemail after her murder!
He organized the search party that found the car on Avery's property!
And then was overly defensive when someone asked if it was him who found the vehicle personally.
#4 on this list. http://decider.com/2015/12/31/the-5-best-making-a-murderer-fan-theories/
I also think Mike Halbach (Theresa's brother) might know something he isn't saying. LINK |
Looking at the phone records that were held out of the film, it looks possible that Steven could have been a stalker of hers. He called her multiple times that day from blocked numbers, and also was reported to call auto trader using a different name and asking for her because she had requested not to go to his property again after he creeped her out, answering the door in a towel. |
Ya it's interesting to see the how the producers of Making a Murderer respond to the Ken Kratz email you posted. That is alot of information left out of a 10 hour documentary. |
Documentaries are not news stories, they are usually, inherently biased, and they have to try and do a good job of ethically presenting the other side fairly and do right by their subjects as well. They don't claim to be a non-biased viewpoint, but they did put in the stuff about not finding EDTA, etc.
The Avery family, especially Grandpa Avery seem to be a bit adverse to the media. In order to get the kind of intimate access to the family, the film makers might have had to give some consideration in the form of not showing certain evidence. |
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LakerSanity
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| Posted: Tue Jan 05, 2016 6:48 pm Post subject: |
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Keep in mind, Kratz is presenting this "additional" evidence within the same way he would talk about Brenden's "confession." For example, the idea that DNA was found under the hood of the car makes little sense.. and he alleges it was spit (not blood). You also have to remember that there was stuff left out from both sides.
Still, regardless of what Katz just offered, it doesn't make a difference. There was still more than enough reasonable doubt.
I still say that Avery's defense team messed up by not presenting Brenden's confession at the trial. Not only does that confession make the prosecution's story and timeline sketchy, but it also is proof of the "frame" argument. It shows the lengths they will go to try to set up Avery. It also creates another sympathetic figure for the jury to latch onto and, thereafter, attribute to Avery.
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ringfinger
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| Posted: Tue Jan 05, 2016 6:53 pm Post subject: |
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| Anyone else hear that one of the jurors said that they returned a guilty verdict in part because they feared for their well being? Jeez. |
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dont_be_a_wuss
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| Posted: Tue Jan 05, 2016 6:54 pm Post subject: |
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| LakerSanity wrote: | Keep in mind, Kratz is presenting this "additional" evidence within the same way he would talk about Brenden's "confession." For example, the idea that DNA was found under the hood of the car makes little sense.. and he alleges it was spit (not blood). You also have to remember that there was stuff left out from both sides.
Still, regardless of what Katz just offered, it doesn't make a difference. There was still more than enough reasonable doubt.
I still say that Avery's defense team messed up by not presenting Brenden's confession at the trial. Not only does that confession make the prosecution's story and timeline sketchy, but it also is proof of the "frame" argument. It shows the lengths they will go to try to set up Avery. It also creates another sympathetic figure for the jury to latch onto and, thereafter, attribute to Avery. |
Interesting, so Katz was bringing in examples that weren't presented to the jury either? That guy is scum. |
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dont_be_a_wuss
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| Posted: Tue Jan 05, 2016 6:55 pm Post subject: |
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| ringfinger wrote: | | Anyone else hear that one of the jurors said that they returned a guilty verdict in part because they feared for their well being? Jeez. |
I heard that three jurors had family ties to law men in Manitowac. Pretty interesting considering we were told the initial vote had 3 for guilty. |
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LakerSanity
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| Posted: Tue Jan 05, 2016 7:00 pm Post subject: |
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| dont_be_a_wuss wrote: | | LakerSanity wrote: | Keep in mind, Kratz is presenting this "additional" evidence within the same way he would talk about Brenden's "confession." For example, the idea that DNA was found under the hood of the car makes little sense.. and he alleges it was spit (not blood). You also have to remember that there was stuff left out from both sides.
Still, regardless of what Katz just offered, it doesn't make a difference. There was still more than enough reasonable doubt.
I still say that Avery's defense team messed up by not presenting Brenden's confession at the trial. Not only does that confession make the prosecution's story and timeline sketchy, but it also is proof of the "frame" argument. It shows the lengths they will go to try to set up Avery. It also creates another sympathetic figure for the jury to latch onto and, thereafter, attribute to Avery. |
Interesting, so Katz was bringing in examples that weren't presented to the jury either? That guy is scum. |
No, I'm not saying that (although it is possible) - I don't know what was or was not presented to the jury or, conversely, excluded from trial.
My point was that Katz presented evidence at the trial as though it was fact, without recognizing or admitting to the context which makes much of that evidence suspect or unreliable. For example, Katz calls Brenden's admissions an undeniable confession, when you and I both know Katz is refusing to acknowledge it was clearly coerced from a mentally deficient teenager who was scared out of his pants.
Given the above, one then should assume, without evidence to the contrary, that Katz is doing the same with whatever "new" or "additional" evidence he presents now as left out of the documentary. There is no reason to believe whatever facts/evidence Katz discusses now which he claims was left out of the documentary is any more reliable or has any fewer holes in it than the facts/evidence Katz presented that was included in the documentary.
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ringfinger
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| Posted: Tue Jan 05, 2016 7:07 pm Post subject: |
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| So annoyed that Katz had a presssr where he told the world Avery killed her in his bedroom but then pushed the garage theory later. I mean what the hell? Talk about biasing the jury pool. Jeez. |
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kikanga
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| Posted: Tue Jan 05, 2016 7:54 pm Post subject: |
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I really don't like how Brendan's mom wanted to see her son who was a minor and mentally deficient, and the investigators wouldn't let her.
And then on the back end, law enforcement says they gave her the option to see Brendan when he was taken in for questioning, but she said no.
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kikanga
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| Posted: Wed Jan 06, 2016 12:47 am Post subject: |
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Wonder if this is true
LINK
She's even answering peoples questions about it on twitter.
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kikanga
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| Posted: Wed Jan 06, 2016 12:52 am Post subject: |
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| ringfinger wrote: | | So annoyed that Katz had a presssr where he told the world Avery killed her in his bedroom but then pushed the garage theory later. I mean what the hell? Talk about biasing the jury pool. Jeez. |
I wonder if Katz was punished for breaking "Wisconsin's Rules of Professional Conduct for Attorneys"
LINK
| Quote: | Rule 3.6 Trial Publicity
(a) A lawyer who is participating or has participated in the investigation or litigation of a matter shall not make an extrajudicial statement that the lawyer knows or reasonably should know will be disseminated by means of public communication and will have a substantial likelihood of materially prejudicing an adjudicative proceeding in the matter. |
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kaoss128
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| Posted: Wed Jan 06, 2016 5:30 am Post subject: |
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| kikanga wrote: | | Splash1 wrote: | | The question I have is; who really killed Teresa Halbach (if not Steven Avery)? |
The same guy it always is. The creepy ex boyfriend with stalker tendencies who was sweating on the stand. Ryan Hillegas.
He hacked into her voicemail after her murder!
He organized the search party that found the car on Avery's property!
And then was overly defensive when someone asked if it was him who found the vehicle personally.
#4 on this list. http://decider.com/2015/12/31/the-5-best-making-a-murderer-fan-theories/
I also think Mike Halbach (Theresa's brother) might know something he isn't saying. LINK |
This reminds me of something that was said on the serial podcasts about Adnan Syed.
Steven Avery must be the most unluckiest man in the world to get convicted of rape, freed 18 years later, and about to win 36 million dollars but just happens to be the last person to see her alive before her ex-boyfriend kills her and the police just so happen to find the car and body and get the idea to frame him.
I mean what are the odds? I feel like he would have a better chance at getting struck by lightning three times. |
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