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Luminous8
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Joined: 26 Apr 2017
Posts: 2192
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 Posted: Fri Feb 22, 2019 5:49 pm Post subject: |
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| BigGameHames wrote: | | adkindo wrote: | | bandiger wrote: | | drae wrote: | FUTURE MVP
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Just needs to add 3pt shooting  |
not until he is confident....he is pretty good in the perfect setup....catch, time to align his feet and shoulders, and have a clean release....but honestly, I do not see the purpose in him shooting when it is not a confident shot for him. 3's are great....if you can make close to 40% of them. |
Shooting 33% from 3 is as valuable as shooting 50% from 2. 40% from 3 is like shooting 60% from 2. You don’t have to make it at a 40% clip to make it very valuable especially when you consider gravity/spacing. |
You do when those misses leads to long rebounds and leak outs for points the other way. The three is a double edged sword. Even now imo. |
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E_Wulf420
Star Player
Joined: 06 Jan 2014
Posts: 1094
Location: Oregon
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| Posted: Fri Feb 22, 2019 6:37 pm Post subject: |
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| LKA wrote: | | LakerLogic wrote: | | LKA wrote: | | Lakesh0wtime wrote: | | LKA wrote: | | laker50 wrote: | | Ingram might just be coming into a third star. |
I see him more as an Andrew Wiggins |
yeah cause youre a hater haha |
No, his shooting is just very concerning. |
Reasonable projection is DeRozan with better defense. |
DeRozan never shot below 70% from the line, this is Ingram’s 3rd straight season of doing so |
Derozan also wasn't as efficient as Ingram 3 years into his career. It took derozan 4 years to average 18ppg Ingram is going to do it in his 3rd.
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venturalakersfan
Retired Number
Joined: 14 Apr 2001
Posts: 144474
Location: The Gold Coast
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| Posted: Fri Feb 22, 2019 6:39 pm Post subject: |
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| Luminous8 wrote: | | BigGameHames wrote: | | adkindo wrote: | | bandiger wrote: | | drae wrote: | FUTURE MVP
U
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U
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Just needs to add 3pt shooting |
not until he is confident....he is pretty good in the perfect setup....catch, time to align his feet and shoulders, and have a clean release....but honestly, I do not see the purpose in him shooting when it is not a confident shot for him. 3's are great....if you can make close to 40% of them. |
Shooting 33% from 3 is as valuable as shooting 50% from 2. 40% from 3 is like shooting 60% from 2. You don’t have to make it at a 40% clip to make it very valuable especially when you consider gravity/spacing. |
You do when those misses leads to long rebounds and leak outs for points the other way. The three is a double edged sword. Even now imo. |
That is a myth, missed 3’s don’t lead to more transitions.
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RIP mom. 11-21-1933 to 6-14-2023. |
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LKA
Star Player
Joined: 06 Oct 2018
Posts: 5181
Location: Sin City
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| Posted: Fri Feb 22, 2019 6:45 pm Post subject: |
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| E_Wulf420 wrote: | | LKA wrote: | | LakerLogic wrote: | | LKA wrote: | | Lakesh0wtime wrote: | | LKA wrote: | | laker50 wrote: | | Ingram might just be coming into a third star. |
I see him more as an Andrew Wiggins |
yeah cause youre a hater haha |
No, his shooting is just very concerning. |
Reasonable projection is DeRozan with better defense. |
DeRozan never shot below 70% from the line, this is Ingram’s 3rd straight season of doing so |
Derozan also wasn't as efficient as Ingram 3 years into his career. It took derozan 4 years to average 18ppg Ingram is going to do it in his 3rd. |
Ingram is gonna be better than DeRozan #confirmed |
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Luminous8
Star Player
Joined: 26 Apr 2017
Posts: 2192
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| Posted: Fri Feb 22, 2019 8:24 pm Post subject: |
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| venturalakersfan wrote: | | Luminous8 wrote: | | BigGameHames wrote: | | adkindo wrote: | | bandiger wrote: | | drae wrote: | FUTURE MVP
U
T
U
R
E
M
V
P |
Just needs to add 3pt shooting |
not until he is confident....he is pretty good in the perfect setup....catch, time to align his feet and shoulders, and have a clean release....but honestly, I do not see the purpose in him shooting when it is not a confident shot for him. 3's are great....if you can make close to 40% of them. |
Shooting 33% from 3 is as valuable as shooting 50% from 2. 40% from 3 is like shooting 60% from 2. You don’t have to make it at a 40% clip to make it very valuable especially when you consider gravity/spacing. |
You do when those misses leads to long rebounds and leak outs for points the other way. The three is a double edged sword. Even now imo. |
That is a myth, missed 3’s don’t lead to more transitions. |
My eyes tell me otherwise. I’ve seen it in play. |
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55
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Joined: 04 Jan 2008
Posts: 12092
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| Posted: Fri Feb 22, 2019 8:40 pm Post subject: |
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Resorting to dirty playing is because the player gave up on any hope of defending him. That's a good sign, BI was driving and scoring at will and they know they can't stop it by playing clean. |
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Sentient Meat
Franchise Player
Joined: 04 Jul 2014
Posts: 12978
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| Posted: Fri Feb 22, 2019 10:31 pm Post subject: |
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| LKA wrote: | | E_Wulf420 wrote: | | LKA wrote: | | LakerLogic wrote: | | LKA wrote: | | Lakesh0wtime wrote: | | LKA wrote: | | laker50 wrote: | | Ingram might just be coming into a third star. |
I see him more as an Andrew Wiggins |
yeah cause youre a hater haha |
No, his shooting is just very concerning. |
Reasonable projection is DeRozan with better defense. |
DeRozan never shot below 70% from the line, this is Ingram’s 3rd straight season of doing so |
Derozan also wasn't as efficient as Ingram 3 years into his career. It took derozan 4 years to average 18ppg Ingram is going to do it in his 3rd. |
Ingram is gonna be better than DeRozan #confirmed |
DeMar career eFG% 46.3%
Ingram eFG at 21 50.2%
DDR TS% this season 52.4%
Ingram TS% at 21 54%
DDR eFG during his all star seasons
2014 45.2%
2016 46.3%
2017 47.7%
2018 48.8% at the age of 28
Ingram's eFG% at the age of 21 50.2%
So, who knows... maybe by the time DDR is in his thirties... he can catch up to Ingram's shooting numbers.
Ingram's TS% is higher shooting poorly at the line. This means his numbers from the field are way better than DDR.
If he continues to improve as he has the last part of this season... the TS% won't even be close anymore. |
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LakersMD
Star Player
Joined: 27 Jun 2003
Posts: 8015
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| Posted: Fri Feb 22, 2019 10:47 pm Post subject: |
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| Luminous8 wrote: | | venturalakersfan wrote: | | Luminous8 wrote: | | BigGameHames wrote: | | adkindo wrote: | | bandiger wrote: | | drae wrote: | FUTURE MVP
U
T
U
R
E
M
V
P |
Just needs to add 3pt shooting |
not until he is confident....he is pretty good in the perfect setup....catch, time to align his feet and shoulders, and have a clean release....but honestly, I do not see the purpose in him shooting when it is not a confident shot for him. 3's are great....if you can make close to 40% of them. |
Shooting 33% from 3 is as valuable as shooting 50% from 2. 40% from 3 is like shooting 60% from 2. You don’t have to make it at a 40% clip to make it very valuable especially when you consider gravity/spacing. |
You do when those misses leads to long rebounds and leak outs for points the other way. The three is a double edged sword. Even now imo. |
That is a myth, missed 3’s don’t lead to more transitions. |
My eyes tell me otherwise. I’ve seen it in play. |
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/fancy-stats/wp/2015/08/03/missed-three-pointers-dont-always-lead-to-nba-fast-breaks/?noredirect=on&utm_term=.9c9555b84302 |
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SocalDevin
Star Player
Joined: 26 May 2016
Posts: 7825
Location: Long Beach
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| Posted: Fri Feb 22, 2019 10:49 pm Post subject: |
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| Sentient Meat wrote: | | LKA wrote: | | E_Wulf420 wrote: | | LKA wrote: | | LakerLogic wrote: | | LKA wrote: | | Lakesh0wtime wrote: | | LKA wrote: | | laker50 wrote: | | Ingram might just be coming into a third star. |
I see him more as an Andrew Wiggins |
yeah cause youre a hater haha |
No, his shooting is just very concerning. |
Reasonable projection is DeRozan with better defense. |
DeRozan never shot below 70% from the line, this is Ingram’s 3rd straight season of doing so |
Derozan also wasn't as efficient as Ingram 3 years into his career. It took derozan 4 years to average 18ppg Ingram is going to do it in his 3rd. |
Ingram is gonna be better than DeRozan #confirmed |
DeMar career eFG% 46.3%
Ingram eFG at 21 50.2%
DDR TS% this season 52.4%
Ingram TS% at 21 54%
DDR eFG during his all star seasons
2014 45.2%
2016 46.3%
2017 47.7%
2018 48.8% at the age of 28
Ingram's eFG% at the age of 21 50.2%
So, who knows... maybe by the time DDR is in his thirties... he can catch up to Ingram's shooting numbers.
Ingram's TS% is higher shooting poorly at the line. This means his numbers from the field are way better than DDR.
If he continues to improve as he has the last part of this season... the TS% won't even be close anymore. |
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PICKnPOP
Star Player
Joined: 14 Jul 2014
Posts: 5393
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| Posted: Fri Feb 22, 2019 11:56 pm Post subject: |
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| Ingram clearly a tough defend and on the other end he’s tough to score on. |
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Sina
Star Player
Joined: 12 Jul 2015
Posts: 1815
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| Posted: Sat Feb 23, 2019 1:46 am Post subject: |
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| Magic, Kobe, Ingram |
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kikanga
Retired Number
Joined: 15 Sep 2012
Posts: 29371
Location: La La Land
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| Posted: Sat Feb 23, 2019 3:52 am Post subject: |
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| Sina wrote: | | Magic, Kobe, Ingram |
This is the type of (bleep) that causes people to come in this thread and gloat whenever he has a bad game.
Sure, he has all star upside. But it's not guaranteed. And a top 10 player of all time (like Magic and Kobe)? He's shown no signs of being that.
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VicXLakers
Franchise Player
Joined: 08 Feb 2006
Posts: 11823
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| Posted: Sat Feb 23, 2019 4:01 am Post subject: |
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| Sina wrote: | | Magic, Kobe, Ingram |
What is Lakers for life Alex...  |
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Canuckx
Rookie
Joined: 23 Oct 2018
Posts: 18
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| Posted: Sat Feb 23, 2019 4:13 am Post subject: |
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| 55 wrote: |
Resorting to dirty playing is because the player gave up on any hope of defending him. That's a good sign, BI was driving and scoring at will and they know they can't stop it by playing clean. |
Why isn’t the front office sending videos like this into the league office. That’s clearly not a basketball play and warrants a flagrant. He should’ve been kicked out of the game.
I mean....the Rockets front office was all about sending videos of Rondo “spitting” on Paul. |
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Luminous8
Star Player
Joined: 26 Apr 2017
Posts: 2192
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| Posted: Sat Feb 23, 2019 5:03 am Post subject: |
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| LakersMD wrote: | | Luminous8 wrote: | | venturalakersfan wrote: | | Luminous8 wrote: | | BigGameHames wrote: | | adkindo wrote: | | bandiger wrote: | | drae wrote: | FUTURE MVP
U
T
U
R
E
M
V
P |
Just needs to add 3pt shooting |
not until he is confident....he is pretty good in the perfect setup....catch, time to align his feet and shoulders, and have a clean release....but honestly, I do not see the purpose in him shooting when it is not a confident shot for him. 3's are great....if you can make close to 40% of them. |
Shooting 33% from 3 is as valuable as shooting 50% from 2. 40% from 3 is like shooting 60% from 2. You don’t have to make it at a 40% clip to make it very valuable especially when you consider gravity/spacing. |
You do when those misses leads to long rebounds and leak outs for points the other way. The three is a double edged sword. Even now imo. |
That is a myth, missed 3’s don’t lead to more transitions. |
My eyes tell me otherwise. I’ve seen it in play. |
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/fancy-stats/wp/2015/08/03/missed-three-pointers-dont-always-lead-to-nba-fast-breaks/?noredirect=on&utm_term=.9c9555b84302 |
Im not trying to say it always happens, but it is a frequent occurrence. Even more troubling is that a lot of teams, ourselves included, opt for transition defense instead of the rebound. |
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audioaxes
Franchise Player
Joined: 26 Apr 2004
Posts: 12573
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| Posted: Sat Feb 23, 2019 8:04 am Post subject: |
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| BigGameHames wrote: | | adkindo wrote: | | bandiger wrote: | | drae wrote: | FUTURE MVP
U
T
U
R
E
M
V
P |
Just needs to add 3pt shooting |
not until he is confident....he is pretty good in the perfect setup....catch, time to align his feet and shoulders, and have a clean release....but honestly, I do not see the purpose in him shooting when it is not a confident shot for him. 3's are great....if you can make close to 40% of them. |
Shooting 33% from 3 is as valuable as shooting 50% from 2. 40% from 3 is like shooting 60% from 2. You don’t have to make it at a 40% clip to make it very valuable especially when you consider gravity/spacing. |
well he aint even shooting 33% and you have to factor in the spacing factor a 40% 3 point shooter brings to a team of offense over a player who defenders dont respect as a 3 point shooter
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Sentient Meat
Franchise Player
Joined: 04 Jul 2014
Posts: 12978
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| Posted: Sat Feb 23, 2019 8:12 am Post subject: |
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eFG% of some key perimeter players since 3 point era began plus key current players
Steph 58.2
Nash 55.6
Klay 55.0
Hield 54.9
Stockton 54.6
R. Miller 54.4
LBJ 54.1
KD 54.1
Kawhi 53.4
Magic 53.3
Ray Allen 53.0
Kuzma 52.8
Tatum 52.6
Worthy 52.5
Kyrie 52.4
Harden 52.4
Jaylen 52.3
Butler 52.2
Tobias 52.2
TJ Warren 52.2
CJ 52.0
Manu 52.0
CP3 51.8
Beal 51.8
Khris 51.7
Bird 51.4
Gordon 51.2
PG 51.1
Jordan 50.9
Lillard 50.9
IT 50.9
Doncic 50.6
Lowry 50.5
Hayward 50.1
Pierce 50.0
Dumars 49.8
Jrue 49.7
Barnes 49.7
Wade 49.6
Payton 49.6
Oladipo 49.5
Grant Hill 49.2
Donovan 49.1
Booker 49.1
Tim Hardaway 49.0
Vince 48.9
Penny 48.6
Kobe 48.2
LouWill 48.2
Melo 48.2
Kemba 48.1
D. Wilkins 47.8
TMac 47.0
Tony Parker 46.6
Detroit IT 46.5
DeRozan 46.4
Kidd 46.4
Westbrook 46.3
Wall 46.2
DSJ 46.0
Iverson 45.2
(Zion 70.5)
It's interesting how people call Ingram a trash shooter at 21 when he's shooting 50.1% while many who they worship... Westbrook, Kobe... shoot even worse. They will say... "Oh, well it was a different era when Kobe and Jordan were playing"... but that didn't seem to affect Stockton, Nash, Reggie. You also need to take into account that shot creators shoot more poorly than catch and shoot guys... but Ingram is a guy who can create his own shot. As someone who loves great shooters, I'm far from satisfied with Ingram's shooting... but keep these other players in mind if you are going say how bad he is. |
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Sina
Star Player
Joined: 12 Jul 2015
Posts: 1815
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| Posted: Sat Feb 23, 2019 8:14 am Post subject: |
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| He is stronger and is making bigger impact while going to basket. |
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55
Franchise Player
Joined: 04 Jan 2008
Posts: 12092
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| Posted: Sat Feb 23, 2019 8:40 am Post subject: |
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| Sina wrote: | | He is stronger and is making bigger impact while going to basket. |
That and-1 against Faried was something we haven't seen. He put his shoulder into him and after the call he pushed his arm out to clear up more space.
Looked like a Harden move. |
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Mike@LG
Moderator
Joined: 10 Apr 2001
Posts: 65135
Location: Orange County, CA
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| Posted: Sat Feb 23, 2019 8:52 am Post subject: |
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| E_Wulf420 wrote: | | LKA wrote: | | LakerLogic wrote: | | LKA wrote: | | Lakesh0wtime wrote: | | LKA wrote: | | laker50 wrote: | | Ingram might just be coming into a third star. |
I see him more as an Andrew Wiggins |
yeah cause youre a hater haha |
No, his shooting is just very concerning. |
Reasonable projection is DeRozan with better defense. |
DeRozan never shot below 70% from the line, this is Ingram’s 3rd straight season of doing so |
Derozan also wasn't as efficient as Ingram 3 years into his career. It took derozan 4 years to average 18ppg Ingram is going to do it in his 3rd. |
DeRozan completely changed his archetype from USC to Toronto.
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Resident Car Nut.
https://lakersdraft.substack.com/
I am not an economic advisor nor do I advise economic strategies or plans. |
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BigGameHames
Star Player
Joined: 24 May 2015
Posts: 7982
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| Posted: Sat Feb 23, 2019 8:59 am Post subject: |
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| Luminous8 wrote: | | BigGameHames wrote: | | adkindo wrote: | | bandiger wrote: | | drae wrote: | FUTURE MVP
U
T
U
R
E
M
V
P |
Just needs to add 3pt shooting |
not until he is confident....he is pretty good in the perfect setup....catch, time to align his feet and shoulders, and have a clean release....but honestly, I do not see the purpose in him shooting when it is not a confident shot for him. 3's are great....if you can make close to 40% of them. |
Shooting 33% from 3 is as valuable as shooting 50% from 2. 40% from 3 is like shooting 60% from 2. You don’t have to make it at a 40% clip to make it very valuable especially when you consider gravity/spacing. |
You do when those misses leads to long rebounds and leak outs for points the other way. The three is a double edged sword. Even now imo. |
I agree but mid range jumpers lead to those, to a slightly lesser extent, as well. In addition passing up those shots can lead to worse shots that also lead to leak outs and TOs. I like it when he passes them up to attack the rim, which has been far more common lately. But when he passes them up to ISO’s which often lead to contested fade-away jumpers and TOs, it’s incredibly frustrating. He’s made progress in that area but still has a ways to go. With that said, I’ve been encouraged lately. |
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Mike@LG
Moderator
Joined: 10 Apr 2001
Posts: 65135
Location: Orange County, CA
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| Posted: Sat Feb 23, 2019 9:01 am Post subject: |
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Wasn't it already proven that not all 3-point misses lead to long rebounds because the wingspans/standing reaches of guys prevent the ball from going out behind 10'-15' away from the hoop?
_________________
Resident Car Nut.
https://lakersdraft.substack.com/
I am not an economic advisor nor do I advise economic strategies or plans. |
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Luminous8
Star Player
Joined: 26 Apr 2017
Posts: 2192
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| Posted: Sat Feb 23, 2019 3:54 pm Post subject: |
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| Mike@LG wrote: | | Wasn't it already proven that not all 3-point misses lead to long rebounds because the wingspans/standing reaches of guys prevent the ball from going out behind 10'-15' away from the hoop? |
Again, I’m not saying that all misses do this, but when a team is trying to make a run, and a guy who is only really giving you “gravity” while still shooting that piss poor percent while chucking (such as bron and Kuzma going 6-19 from 3) those misses lead to SOME points the other way for long rebounds and simply not getting good a possession. That simply isn’t good to have on the court and becomes a negative.
Maybe I’m just an old head stuck in a different era refusing to accept analytics entirely. |
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LKA
Star Player
Joined: 06 Oct 2018
Posts: 5181
Location: Sin City
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| Posted: Sat Feb 23, 2019 3:57 pm Post subject: |
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| Luminous8 wrote: | | Maybe I’m just an old head stuck in a different era refusing to accept analytics entirely. |
Seems like it. |
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LakersMD
Star Player
Joined: 27 Jun 2003
Posts: 8015
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| Posted: Sat Feb 23, 2019 5:15 pm Post subject: |
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| Luminous8 wrote: | | LakersMD wrote: | | Luminous8 wrote: | | venturalakersfan wrote: | | Luminous8 wrote: | | BigGameHames wrote: | | adkindo wrote: | | bandiger wrote: | | drae wrote: | FUTURE MVP
U
T
U
R
E
M
V
P |
Just needs to add 3pt shooting |
not until he is confident....he is pretty good in the perfect setup....catch, time to align his feet and shoulders, and have a clean release....but honestly, I do not see the purpose in him shooting when it is not a confident shot for him. 3's are great....if you can make close to 40% of them. |
Shooting 33% from 3 is as valuable as shooting 50% from 2. 40% from 3 is like shooting 60% from 2. You don’t have to make it at a 40% clip to make it very valuable especially when you consider gravity/spacing. |
You do when those misses leads to long rebounds and leak outs for points the other way. The three is a double edged sword. Even now imo. |
That is a myth, missed 3’s don’t lead to more transitions. |
My eyes tell me otherwise. I’ve seen it in play. |
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/fancy-stats/wp/2015/08/03/missed-three-pointers-dont-always-lead-to-nba-fast-breaks/?noredirect=on&utm_term=.9c9555b84302 |
Im not trying to say it always happens, but it is a frequent occurrence. Even more troubling is that a lot of teams, ourselves included, opt for transition defense instead of the rebound. |
They’re not even a frequent occurrence. The data shows that 3 pointers lead to fewer transition opportunities than shots in the paint. |
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