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rpadma12
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Joined: 23 Aug 2002
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 Posted: Mon Feb 13, 2006 10:49 am Post subject: |
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| Warlord23 wrote: |  Jordan is a competitor to the core. And can you blame him? Like Pippen said, in today's league, the guards get kid glove treatment. When the young Jordan was making his name in the league, flagrant fouls were hardly called except for really vicious blows. Hand-checking was allowed, and there were a bunch of tough, no-nonsense defensive teams that gave you no quarter. Today, the NBA tries extra hard to protect its product.
And unlike the so-called "Jordanesque" players of today (Kobe, Lebron, Tracy, Wade, Vince, et al), Jordan actually worked tremendously hard on defense. Most of the high-scoring SGs of the present day play defense once in five games, if at all. Forgive him for not being impressed. After all, he played with these same guys and dropped 20 ppg at a better shooting % at the age of 40, with a bum knee to boot. |
Let's not forget that Jordan also got away with a lot of things on defense that other guards can't now. I do agree, however, that guards nowadays aren't putting consistent effort... but, these high scoring guards are being depended upon so much on offense that they can't get into foul trouble, with the new rules, they can easily get into foul trouble. Kobe, for one. If anyone SG has the ability on both ends since MJ, it's Kobe. although he has picked up some bad habits in the recent years trying to play as "free safety".
Let's also not forget that the rules started to relax B/C of Jordan and the league wanting to protect him and he was put at the FT line at a high rate for even barely touching him. Kobe gets knocked around plenty.. some flagrant fouls that aren't even called.
Last edited by rpadma12 on Mon Feb 13, 2006 10:58 am; edited 1 time in total |
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lakeshowhorizon.
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Joined: 12 Feb 2004
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Location: HoNoZuLuNaTiOn.
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| Posted: Mon Feb 13, 2006 10:57 am Post subject: |
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| Ego is a helluva drug |
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Warlord23
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| Posted: Mon Feb 13, 2006 11:01 am Post subject: |
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I think the perception that Kobe doesn't get fouls called is overblown sometimes. Kobe gets 12.9 FTA per 48 mins, while Wade gets 13.0 FT per 48 mins. This is despite Kobe shooting jumpers 80% of the time, while Wade shoots jumpers only 62% of the time. The refs miss a few calls on Kobe for sure, but he gets a few that he shouldn't. NBA refereeing is bad because it is inconsistent, not cuz its biased. Fans, of course, always remember the missed calls (I do that too  ) .. it's just an essential aspect of fans being fans. |
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rpadma12
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Joined: 23 Aug 2002
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| Posted: Mon Feb 13, 2006 11:08 am Post subject: |
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I think Kobe not getting some of the calls he should discourages him from attacking the basket as much as he should. Also, having two, three guys on him from the three point line prevents him from getting to the basket.. which is why even though the defense may not be as "hard" and "tough" as it was in Jordan's early part of the career, the availability of zone defense still allows for any team to stop a star player. Even Jordan has admitted as much. Jordan has stated that Kobe can't approach the game as he did because of there no longer being illegal defense rules... that Kobe has to figure it out himself.
Another thing.. averages don't tell the story sometimes.. when you watch the game and you see a guy like Chucky Atkins get calls that Kobe doesn't, there is obviously something wrong. |
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Warlord23
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| Posted: Mon Feb 13, 2006 11:16 am Post subject: |
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| rpadma12 wrote: | I think Kobe not getting some of the calls he should discourages him from attacking the basket as much as he should. Also, having two, three guys on him from the three point line prevents him from getting to the basket.. which is why even though the defense may not be as "hard" and "tough" as it was in Jordan's early part of the career, the availability of zone defense still allows for any team to stop a star player. Even Jordan has admitted as much. Jordan has stated that Kobe can't approach the game as he did because of there no longer being illegal defense rules... that Kobe has to figure it out himself.
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Agree to a large extent. I think the imposition of zone in today's game makes up for the lack of hand-checks and physicality of around 10 years ago. Which makes Kobe's 81 a thing of wonder. Indeed Kobe's offensive game and clutchness is as good as Jordan's was. Why I hesitate to compare Kobe to Jordan is (a) whether Kobe can continue being such an offensive force for as long as Jordan did, and (b) whether Kobe can be a top perimeter defender. |
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NoMoreGame7s
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Joined: 12 Apr 2001
Posts: 3818
Location: Phoenix, AZ
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| Posted: Mon Feb 13, 2006 11:30 am Post subject: |
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| Scherm wrote: | It reminds me of Pat Riley's quote that anybody could score 81 if they shot 70 times. How about if they took 46 shots?
And how many could get themselves open that often when the other team was running defender after defender at them?
Nothing diminishes former superstars more than their reluctance to compliment their successors. You can either be gracious like Bill Russell or you can be a grumpy old man who starts every sentence with "Back in my day..." |
Like Magic?
Sorry - had to say it. That bugs the hell out of me. |
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wolfpaclaker
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| Posted: Mon Feb 13, 2006 12:21 pm Post subject: |
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| NoMoreGame7s wrote: | | Scherm wrote: | It reminds me of Pat Riley's quote that anybody could score 81 if they shot 70 times. How about if they took 46 shots?
And how many could get themselves open that often when the other team was running defender after defender at them?
Nothing diminishes former superstars more than their reluctance to compliment their successors. You can either be gracious like Bill Russell or you can be a grumpy old man who starts every sentence with "Back in my day..." |
Like Magic?
Sorry - had to say it. That bugs the hell out of me. |
Magic says some silly things, but when push comes to shove he will say the classy thing.
Especially when it comes to Kobe.
And you know that saying - you are the company you keep? Well, Magic on the TNT show is a lot different from Magic at games. When he's on that show for some reason his IQ falls 200 times. That's when he says some silly things.
I think they drink on that show during the games. |
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LakerJam
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Location: Sherman Oaks, CA
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| Posted: Mon Feb 13, 2006 1:09 pm Post subject: |
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| wolfpaclaker wrote: | Jordan is a competitor, Jam.
Growing up (though I was in my teens and the height of immaturity) competition was all about hating your opponent and being jealous of opponent success.
But then again, these guys aren't me in high school - they are grown up Pro's.
Though, even if MJ has won 6 rings - Kobe did something he (MJ) could never do. That HAS to give him that itch he talks about. It must really piss off Jordan that the media and fans in general are seeing a SG put up a better show that he was ever able to.
Ofcourse Jordan is still the better player because he won more rings and was a smarter player in his 30's than Kobe is now - BUT What Kobe has done 2-3 games this season has been unheard of ... Even by lengends like Micheal Jordan, Magic Johnson and Larry Bird.
As a human Micheal should show more class. As a competitor, I expect him to hate this feeling of being one upped. |
Actually, I agree wholeheartedy with you. Everyone always talks about how Kobe seeks to emulate MJ, but rarely do people actually notice that MJ is VERY competite with Kobe - has been ever since people started talking about the greatness of Kobe Bryant.
I'm not at all surprised, offended or disappointed in Jordan's comments. I merely wanted to smash apart the naivete that says Jordan is responding with "class", when he's NOT. |
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LakerJam
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| Posted: Mon Feb 13, 2006 1:12 pm Post subject: |
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| sodapoppenski wrote: | Reggie Miller has always been extremely competitive.
Not only that, but he's said some things that were on thin-ice class-wise.
Even Reggie was classy about Kobe's 81. He did that 5-minute interview
on PTI and, from those I've heard, payed Kobe more respect and
compliments for that game than any other current or former player I
heard any quotes from.
I'm with ya that lots of "competitors" will be jealous on the inside, etc of
Kobe's success (the 81 in particular right about now)... but class is still
class, and certain players just don't have it (Vince is my best example
from the comments I heard on Kobe's 81).
Jordan's I do think may have been misread a bit, but it's still pretty
shallow. |
Two things Reggie said and did after Kobe scored the 81, was he first said that those who minimize or criticize the 81, are just plain jealous period. Then he turned to the camera and said, "Thank you, Kobe. Thank you for letting me see something that I will never ever see again!".
Now, THAT'S a class response from one respected and clutch competitor to the next. |
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LakerJam
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Joined: 02 Aug 2002
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| Posted: Mon Feb 13, 2006 1:14 pm Post subject: |
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| wolfpaclaker wrote: | | I'm glad he's reacted this way. It shows that even he knows that Kobe's outdone him at a period of basketball. |
Excellent.
FYI for those who don't know: Kobe has made 21 game winning shots. MJ has made 22.
I think that fact must make MJ's ass itch again, huh? LOL. |
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LakerJam
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| Posted: Mon Feb 13, 2006 1:16 pm Post subject: |
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| T3D wrote: | | kobe has taken shots at jordan b4. I remember when Jordan was coming back to the league and kobe was saying how it was funny that jordan was returning when the nba was up for its tv contracct. |
That's the best you've got? That's a pathetic analogy. If anything, that is a comment about the NBA, not Jordan. |
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LakerJam
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Joined: 02 Aug 2002
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Location: Sherman Oaks, CA
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| Posted: Mon Feb 13, 2006 1:20 pm Post subject: |
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| Warlord23 wrote: | Jordan is a competitor to the core. And can you blame him? Like Pippen said, in today's league, the guards get kid glove treatment. When the young Jordan was making his name in the league, flagrant fouls were hardly called except for really vicious blows. Hand-checking was allowed, and there were a bunch of tough, no-nonsense defensive teams that gave you no quarter. Today, the NBA tries extra hard to protect its product.
And unlike the so-called "Jordanesque" players of today (Kobe, Lebron, Tracy, Wade, Vince, et al), Jordan actually worked tremendously hard on defense. Most of the high-scoring SGs of the present day play defense once in five games, if at all. Forgive him for not being impressed. After all, he played with these same guys and dropped 20 ppg at a better shooting % at the age of 40, with a bum knee to boot. |
Sorry, but that's just the type of excuses the olds use to make themselves sound better. In Jordan's day, you could handcheck, grab, be far more physical in terms of manning up = that's true. That means it was easier to be a defender because you didn't have to shadow without touching the opponent. It also meant that as an offensive player, your opponent could lay hands on you so in that sense it was harder. BUT you also couldn't zone up a guy. Jordan NEVER had to deal with 2 or more defenders following him before he even touched the ball. Why? Because it was an illegal defense.
It's why NBA-LIfers ALL SAY they never would have ever believed a player could score 81 in the modern era. It makes sense to you that they would say that when it's supposedly far easier now? No. They say it because with more freedom in terms of what types of defenses a team can throw on a player, it's actually gotten harder. |
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KingKobeDubbz
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| Posted: Mon Feb 13, 2006 1:24 pm Post subject: |
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| I mean seriously everybody has a somewhat jealousy toward the great Kobe Bryant. They just won't admit it. Jordan is pretty much known as the all time best in beating his opponent in mind and play. Kobe is taking over that role. I conclusion it leads to the question know who would really win a in a one on one battle? A 27 year old Bryant or a 27 year old Jordan???? |
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angel
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| Posted: Mon Feb 13, 2006 1:25 pm Post subject: |
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Bingo!
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"Darkness cannot drive out darkness. Only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate. Only love can do that." ~~Martin Luther King Jr.~~ |
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LakerJam
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| Posted: Mon Feb 13, 2006 1:25 pm Post subject: |
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| Warlord23 wrote: | | I think the perception that Kobe doesn't get fouls called is overblown sometimes. Kobe gets 12.9 FTA per 48 mins, while Wade gets 13.0 FT per 48 mins. This is despite Kobe shooting jumpers 80% of the time, while Wade shoots jumpers only 62% of the time. The refs miss a few calls on Kobe for sure, but he gets a few that he shouldn't. NBA refereeing is bad because it is inconsistent, not cuz its biased. Fans, of course, always remember the missed calls (I do that too ) .. it's just an essential aspect of fans being fans. |
It's not about the NUMBER of calls. If you watch the games, you'll see plenty of calls where one player barely touches another player and the whistle blows; then you'll see Kobe get hammered and yet there's no whistle. I think the reason they DON'T blow the whistle for every foul involving Kobe, is because they want to keep Kobe's FT #s at an amount that looks more appropriate. Doesn't mean those guarding him aren't allowed to be more physical with him then they are with others. Heck, go back and watch all Laker-Dallas games and notice how much consideration Devin Harris gets in terms of being touched, and how many of those same whistles don't get blown when Kobe is "touched" in the exact same way. Ever notice the Lakers get called for "riding an opponent's hip" up the court, yet the defender is completely getting a free ride on Kobe?
I have. |
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angel
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| Posted: Mon Feb 13, 2006 1:29 pm Post subject: |
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81 was something Jordan never did. He had an OT game when he had 69. He did commend Kobe, but it was a bit backhanded.
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"Darkness cannot drive out darkness. Only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate. Only love can do that." ~~Martin Luther King Jr.~~ |
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Raptor2k
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Location: Dallas/Ft. Worth
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| Posted: Mon Feb 13, 2006 1:51 pm Post subject: |
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| LakersFanESS wrote: | | Jordan said it was all about the win, right? Didn't he lose that game against the Celtics when he scored 69 points in the playoffs? |
No, that was the 63 point game.
Jordan won't admit it, be he knows, Kobe is at the top right now. |
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LakersFanESS
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| Posted: Mon Feb 13, 2006 1:59 pm Post subject: |
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| Boogieman2k5 wrote: | | LakersFanESS wrote: | | Jordan said it was all about the win, right? Didn't he lose that game against the Celtics when he scored 69 points in the playoffs? |
No, that was the 63 point game.
Jordan won't admit it, be he knows, Kobe is at the top right now. |
Oh, that's right, the 63 point game. The funny part is that people always talk about that game as one of his best but he lost that game (and using his reasoning, that game meant nothing). I think Jordan is still reeling from the 55 Kobe put on him a few years back.... |
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BygDaddy
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| Posted: Mon Feb 13, 2006 2:29 pm Post subject: |
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| Jordan has always been an ass. |
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jack13
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| Posted: Mon Feb 13, 2006 2:38 pm Post subject: |
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BIGASSLAKERFRAN wrote
"Well, MJ says anybody can go out and take a lot of shots and end up with 81. Kobe took 46 shots and ended up with 81; while MJ took 49 shots (1/16/93) and ended up with under 69.
Those are the facts, end of discussion"
Well said, agreed 100% |
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Aussiesuede
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Joined: 27 Jul 2005
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| Posted: Mon Feb 13, 2006 2:49 pm Post subject: |
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| KingKobeDubbz wrote: | | I mean seriously everybody has a somewhat jealousy toward the great Kobe Bryant. They just won't admit it. Jordan is pretty much known as the all time best in beating his opponent in mind and play. Kobe is taking over that role. I conclusion it leads to the question know who would really win a in a one on one battle? A 27 year old Bryant or a 27 year old Jordan???? |
If they were surrounded with the exact same team, then I'd definitely take the 27yo Kobe. At 27, Kobe is a more complete player than Jordan was. Kobe also has more playoff and championship experience than Jordan had at that point. At 27, jordans jumpshot wasn't anywhere near as developed nor did he have any consistent 3 point range at that point. Many of the skills Kobe already has, Jordan didn't master until after 30.
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I'm On point, On task, On message, and Off drugs. A Streetwise Smart Bomb, Out of rehab and In denial. Over the Top, On the edge, Under the Radar, and In Control. Behind the 8 ball, Ahead of the Curve and I've got a Love Child who sends me Hate mail. |
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hoopschick29
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| Posted: Mon Feb 13, 2006 2:58 pm Post subject: |
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| BygDaddy wrote: | | Jordan has always been an ass. |
It's funny you should say that. People talk about how unfriendly Kobe is with the media and how unaccessible. Jordan has never been a particularly friendly or accessible person. He doesn't give autographs anymore and hasn't in about 10 years. I remember reading Ebony magazine many years ago when I was still in high school (early 90s), and his wife Juanita very unapologetically said she would turn people away all the time in public when they would run up wanting an autograph. He's always come off as somewhat of a jerk which is why it puzzles me that so many people dislike Kobe for very similar perceptions. But I've seen Kobe in person before, and from his earliest days in the NBA, he has always been approachable and friendly to fans in public. |
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PiPisKobesByatch
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| Posted: Mon Feb 13, 2006 3:32 pm Post subject: |
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^2 words:
DOUBLE
STANDARD |
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PiPisKobesByatch
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| Posted: Mon Feb 13, 2006 3:42 pm Post subject: |
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| anybody = NOT jordan |
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Kobe-Wan Kenobi
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| Posted: Mon Feb 13, 2006 4:10 pm Post subject: |
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Jordans always been an idiot, when it comes to his point of view on things... the funny thing was, what Stephen A. said about Jordan when he said "I wouldnt of let that happened, I woulda fouled out or something."
He said something along the lines of, "You cant say you wouldnt of let that happen, you never guarded the other teams best player michael. And no matter what you did, you woulda never got more then 4 fouls called on you, those refs never called a foul on you, you coulda smacked kobe in the face and not got called for a foul."
lol it was classic
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