|
| View previous topic :: View next topic |
| Author |
Message |
insidepresence
Star Player
Joined: 17 Jul 2005
Posts: 3901
Location: Ca
|
 Posted: Tue Feb 14, 2006 9:56 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| If you read Tex Winter's book, you'll realize that it was Phil who drove West off, and Phil who was the reason that Kobe and Shaq didn't get along...don't blame mitch (even if he is incompetent) |
|
| Back to top |
|
 |
KA_2
Star Player
Joined: 08 Jan 2005
Posts: 1883
|
| Posted: Tue Feb 14, 2006 9:58 pm Post subject: |
|
|
By the way, why aren't we blaming Buss for letting Jerry West go? As owner of the team, isn't it his responsibility to put the best management around him possible? Or am I going to get posters telling me that Kupchak and West's GM skills are really the same? Or that Buss was the one that made the Cavs--->Worthy deal, as well as the Wilks/Thompson/Divac/NVE/EJ/Kobe/Shaq/Rice/Horry/etc. acquisitions?
_________________
Westside |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
KA_2
Star Player
Joined: 08 Jan 2005
Posts: 1883
|
| Posted: Tue Feb 14, 2006 10:01 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| insidepresence wrote: | | If you read Tex Winter's book, you'll realize that it was Phil who drove West off, and Phil who was the reason that Kobe and Shaq didn't get along...don't blame mitch (even if he is incompetent) |
Can you link his quote? Because I've read Winters' books (as well as Phil's, Heisler's, Lazenby's, etc.) and I'm pretty sure Tex never said Phil was the reason Shaq/Kobe didn't get along. He said something along the lines of Phil not handling it "as well as he could have".
This still doesn't take away from the fact that Shaq had no respect for Kupchak. Knowing that, shouldn't Jerry Buss have kept West at all costs so he could avoid breaking up a dynasty that just went to the Finals?
_________________
Westside |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
KA_2
Star Player
Joined: 08 Jan 2005
Posts: 1883
|
| Posted: Tue Feb 14, 2006 10:02 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Anyway, interesting conversation. Be back in a couple hours. 
_________________
Westside |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
insidepresence
Star Player
Joined: 17 Jul 2005
Posts: 3901
Location: Ca
|
| Posted: Tue Feb 14, 2006 10:03 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| KA I agree with you there, Buss was a fool to let West go. West was the best thing for Kobe and Shaq, in fact, I think he would have kept them together. And no, Mitch is far more incompetent compared to West. I just think that West is slightly overrated. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
insidepresence
Star Player
Joined: 17 Jul 2005
Posts: 3901
Location: Ca
|
| Posted: Tue Feb 14, 2006 10:06 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| KA_2 wrote: | | insidepresence wrote: | | If you read Tex Winter's book, you'll realize that it was Phil who drove West off, and Phil who was the reason that Kobe and Shaq didn't get along...don't blame mitch (even if he is incompetent) |
Can you link his quote? Because I've read Winters' books (as well as Phil's, Heisler's, Lazenby's, etc.) and I'm pretty sure Tex never said Phil was the reason Shaq/Kobe didn't get along. He said something along the lines of Phil not handling it "as well as he could have".
This still doesn't take away from the fact that Shaq had no respect for Kupchak. Knowing that, shouldn't Jerry Buss have kept West at all costs so he could avoid breaking up a dynasty that just went to the Finals? |
Ya I've read his books, and he said Phil could have handled it better. Which is a way of sugar coating the fact that it was Phil's fault. And yes Kupchack was an absolute moron in the way he handled Shaq...I honestly don't know why I played devil's advocate today, because I hate Mitch. But I have the utmost respect for Buss. I see letting West go as a GM as a mistake, but that is one of the few. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
insidepresence
Star Player
Joined: 17 Jul 2005
Posts: 3901
Location: Ca
|
| Posted: Tue Feb 14, 2006 10:09 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| And I think the only reason I got into this debate was because I don't believe that Artest would have been that big of an upgrade...but if I had known about the possibility of K-mart before hand...I would be all for pushing LO for Artest, and bringing in K and Watson...all while keeping Bynum. That would have been pure gold...Sharman type move if you ask me. Wasn't old enough to remember him, but from everything I've read the guy was a pure swindler, and would absolutely just con other GM's. Anyway its been good KA, always good to have a little debate with someone who can actually go quid pro quo, take it easy |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Melon Tea
Star Player
Joined: 14 Feb 2006
Posts: 1528
|
| Posted: Tue Feb 14, 2006 11:45 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| rock0100 wrote: | Can we still send Bynum and another player to Sacramento? Imagine...
Earl Watson
Kobe Bryant
Lamar Odom
Kenyon Martin
Kwame Brown
Wow!!! |
send BYNUM!? psh we need bynum for the "2007" plan |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
KA_2
Star Player
Joined: 08 Jan 2005
Posts: 1883
|
| Posted: Wed Feb 15, 2006 12:58 am Post subject: |
|
|
insidepresense,
Firslty, Tex didn't quite say what you first said, there is a sizable difference and that was my only point, that's all. Also, I didn't get the impression he was sugar coating, because from everything I've read and seen of Tex Winters, this is not a man that ever sugarcoats, he's one of the most blunt coaches I've ever seen/heard. He's a real old dude, that's what happens when you're pushing 100! 
Secondly, yes, Sharman was a swindler...but so was West. He basically told the Cavs in 81 "Here's an old man for you guys to play, you need him because he has an expiring contract...so give us your first rounder next year, OK guys?". Cavs say "Yes", finish with the worst record in the league, and the Los Angeles Lakers have the #1 pick in the draft in 82. They select James Worthy, assuring the dynasty continues. Sharman was great, but West is proven, proven, proven. He could completely bomb in Memphis, and he'd still be the greatest GM of all time.
Of course, West hasn't bomed in Memphis, they're averaging 47 wins a season since he got there and will probably win that many this year. The Grizzlies were an annual lottery team before West got there, and a city no one wanted to play then, or now. The Grizzlies have Gasol and Fratello compared to the Lakers's Kobe and Phil, and are at worst a top 3 city to play in the NBA, and yet the Lakers have a worse record than the Memphis Grizzlies this year, and last season by 11 wins. That's just totally unacceptable. As a lifelong Laker fan, that just kills you. Gut wrenching.
_________________
Westside |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
KA_2
Star Player
Joined: 08 Jan 2005
Posts: 1883
|
| Posted: Wed Feb 15, 2006 1:02 am Post subject: |
|
|
By the way, I was wrong, West did not sign Shaq to his extension, Kupchak did. That's the extension Shaq got after his MVP season/first title.
_________________
Westside |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
LA4Life
Star Player
Joined: 19 May 2004
Posts: 1349
|
| Posted: Wed Feb 15, 2006 1:45 am Post subject: |
|
|
| wolfpaclaker wrote: | | KA_2 wrote: | | wolfpaclaker wrote: | | LA4Life wrote: | | Get over it man, Laker management doesn't have the balls to take risks in return for a better team that's why we are stuck with a junior varsity team + 1 superstar. |
Bandwagon much? |
Nah, it's just the truth. This team won't be any better through 2 years of rebuilding (barring a big deadline deal next week) than they were on day 1 of their rebuilding project (i.e. July 04 trade of Shaq). That, my misguided homer, is sad. |
Well I rather be a homer than a pathetic excuse for a fan that craps over the team that has given their fans the most championships over any other NBA team since the Buss era.
Call me a homer - But I have good reason to believe in Buss.
I will take his vision and decision making over your's any day of the week. |
Since when does being critical of your team make you a bandwagon fan? I guess in your dillusional world you probably think this team might go all the way this year. :roll:
_________________
David Stern and NBA Officials <-- 2004 NBA Champions |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
shnjb
Franchise Player
Joined: 08 Oct 2002
Posts: 13320
|
| Posted: Wed Feb 15, 2006 3:19 am Post subject: |
|
|
| LA4Life wrote: | | wolfpaclaker wrote: | | KA_2 wrote: | | wolfpaclaker wrote: | | LA4Life wrote: | | Get over it man, Laker management doesn't have the balls to take risks in return for a better team that's why we are stuck with a junior varsity team + 1 superstar. |
Bandwagon much? |
Nah, it's just the truth. This team won't be any better through 2 years of rebuilding (barring a big deadline deal next week) than they were on day 1 of their rebuilding project (i.e. July 04 trade of Shaq). That, my misguided homer, is sad. |
Well I rather be a homer than a pathetic excuse for a fan that craps over the team that has given their fans the most championships over any other NBA team since the Buss era.
Call me a homer - But I have good reason to believe in Buss.
I will take his vision and decision making over your's any day of the week. |
Since when does being critical of your team make you a bandwagon fan? I guess in your dillusional world you probably think this team might go all the way this year. :roll: |
Yeah.
What makes him the judge of another fan's loyalty?
I know that by nature of sports forums, we're bound to be flooded with passionate homers, but it's getting really ridiculous these days.
I've seen them all- Odom an all-star, great defender, three point shooter, Lakers a playoff team last year, Mitch Kupchak a great GM, Luke Walton a great pick, Mitch Kupchak top 4 GM in the NBA by some (bleep) stat analogy done by a jr. high student, etc...
And the worst thing is, when homers are belligerent, handing out insults at others who were not being critical of THEM, only the management or some players.
What are they, the PR department of the Lakers?
Players' wives?
Seriously, how does anyone defend Odumb's dumb plays against Sacramento and Utah?
How? |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
wolfpaclaker
Retired Number
Joined: 29 May 2002
Posts: 58384
|
| Posted: Wed Feb 15, 2006 7:07 am Post subject: |
|
|
There's a difference between critical and being disloyal.
It's been less than 2 years and guys are jumping on Buss. That is showing a man that has been highly successful as a Laker owner - no respect.
Go ahead think it's realism. It's not. It's being a crappy fan. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
pokoy
Moderator
Joined: 12 Apr 2001
Posts: 14545
|
| Posted: Wed Feb 15, 2006 7:59 am Post subject: |
|
|
wolf, I believe Jerry's not making many of the decisions this year. IIRC, I read somewhere that Jerry is allowing Jimmy to make most of the decisions for now... And I'm not exactly confident in Jimmy Buss's decision making skills yet. If that makes me a crappy fan, then I'll be secure in my crappiness. Never been worried about how crappy a fan I've been, anyway.
EDIT: I forgot in all of this that this thread is about Artest for Odom. In which case I don't really mind that we didn't trade for Artest. I've got no beef with the Busses or the Lakers for that non-move. I'm just annoyed as hell that Ron is helping Sacramento move up in the standings because I absolutely detest those guys. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
KA_2
Star Player
Joined: 08 Jan 2005
Posts: 1883
|
| Posted: Wed Feb 15, 2006 3:34 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| wolfpaclaker wrote: | There's a difference between critical and being disloyal.
It's been less than 2 years and guys are jumping on Buss. That is showing a man that has been highly successful as a Laker owner - no respect.
Go ahead think it's realism. It's not. It's being a crappy fan. |
No, it's realism, and your entire existence on this board and in this thread is nothing but rah rah homerism.
_________________
Westside |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
eniq 0x00
Star Player
Joined: 06 Aug 2005
Posts: 2724
|
| Posted: Wed Feb 15, 2006 5:11 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| KA_2 wrote: | | wolfpaclaker wrote: | There's a difference between critical and being disloyal.
It's been less than 2 years and guys are jumping on Buss. That is showing a man that has been highly successful as a Laker owner - no respect.
Go ahead think it's realism. It's not. It's being a crappy fan. |
No, it's realism, and your entire existence on this board and in this thread is nothing but rah rah homerism. |
You're pathetic. You do nothing but dismiss anyone who disagrees with you. How about actually debating his points rather than being so childish? Like others have said, you'd have to really stretch to accuse wolfpaclaker of being a homer. Nothing in his posting history suggests that kind of a mentality. You're clearly grasping at straws to discredit someone who doesn't agree with you. Your kind belongs on CL, not LG. It's because of twits like you, that I'm glad I have the means to filter posts on this site. Maybe one day, you'd hope to be able to graze up against the knowledge of wolfpaclaker, but until that day, you're nothing but a troll.  But go ahead and keep touting your age, maybe you'll find some lapdog on this site that will defer to your alleged authority.
_________________
"In essence, the trade was: Shaq, Rick Fox and Gary Payton for Odom, Kwame, Mihm, Profit, 2nd round picks, a 1st round pick and 30 million in luxury tax saviings." - LakerJam
^^ Farmar
 |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
shnjb
Franchise Player
Joined: 08 Oct 2002
Posts: 13320
|
| Posted: Wed Feb 15, 2006 5:20 pm Post subject: |
|
|
I'd have to admit though, that KA_2 is a bit too harsh on other posters.
You should lighten up a little KA_2; after all, no matter how illogical they may seem, they're only optimistic fans, who aren't particularly harmful. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
KA_2
Star Player
Joined: 08 Jan 2005
Posts: 1883
|
| Posted: Wed Feb 15, 2006 5:49 pm Post subject: |
|
|
shnjb, good call.
| eniq 0x00 wrote: | | You're pathetic. You do nothing but dismiss anyone who disagrees with you. How about actually debating his points rather than being so childish? |
Read the thread, I have debated his points.
| Quote: | | Like others have said, you'd have to really stretch to accuse wolfpaclaker of being a homer. Nothing in his posting history suggests that kind of a mentality. |
Is there some inside joke I'm not aware of?
| Quote: | | You're clearly grasping at straws to discredit someone who doesn't agree with you. Your kind belongs on CL, not LG. It's because of twits like you, that I'm glad I have the means to filter posts on this site. Maybe one day, you'd hope to be able to graze up against the knowledge of wolfpaclaker, but until that day, you're nothing but a troll. But go ahead and keep touting your age, maybe you'll find some lapdog on this site that will defer to your alleged authority. |
Meh. Not like you've contributed anything meaningful to this thread.
_________________
Westside |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
magic_bryant
Franchise Player
Joined: 16 Oct 2002
Posts: 18179
|
| Posted: Wed Feb 15, 2006 7:12 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| KA_2 wrote: | | By the way, I was wrong, West did not sign Shaq to his extension, Kupchak did. That's the extension Shaq got after his MVP season/first title. |
But Jerry West promised him "Staples Center" and anything else that he wanted, should he "bring the title back to the Lakers." That is straight from Shaq's mouth.
_________________
Stephon Marbury on Kobe: "He's the only person on 'dis earth that can do 'dat. He guards people, like shuts 'em down. Then, to do 'dat on 'da offensive end. It's like 'Damn, I can't score on him AND he about to bust my ass." |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
KA_2
Star Player
Joined: 08 Jan 2005
Posts: 1883
|
| Posted: Thu Feb 16, 2006 1:06 am Post subject: |
|
|
| magic_bryant wrote: | | KA_2 wrote: | | By the way, I was wrong, West did not sign Shaq to his extension, Kupchak did. That's the extension Shaq got after his MVP season/first title. |
But Jerry West promised him "Staples Center" and anything else that he wanted, should he "bring the title back to the Lakers." That is straight from Shaq's mouth. |
Right, but Kupchak inked him to the deal. I like West's chances of getting a better deal for Shaq, than what Kupchak ended up giving him. But West never got a shot to prove that. Though you're right, the difference isn't terribly meaningful and I bet Shaq would have gotten about the same amount of money/years with either GM doing the negotiating.
_________________
Westside |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
|
|
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
|
|
