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venturalakersfan
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 Posted: Thu Feb 13, 2020 7:30 am Post subject: |
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| LonzoLegend2 wrote: | | wolfpaclaker wrote: | You know Caruso has some flaws, but a lot of the stuff we want these guys to do via FA, Caruso is bringing. The thing is no player available has it all, nor do we have a guy in the rotation that can do it all.
For a player who can shoot, you will lose probably some defense at the 2 or 1.
For a player that can create, again, you probably lose maybe some 3 point shooting. (DRose for example)
There has not been a guy that I could pin point reading this thread that I would have gone and said - that guy really puts us over the top.
The summer we probably have a better shot at upgrading. Hoping to add a player that can create his shot, but also defend and shoot the 3. I know it will not be easy to get that kind of guard.
Waiters is not worth waiving someone, IMO. The team chemistry on this group is amazing. These guys have earned the right to close the season together. |
Our bench still lacks punch...Kuz is on some island in the south seas and LBJ/AD need to ball out 36-37 min because they got no help...bring on Burks and Waiters. |
Burks and Waiters wouldn’t get much playing time
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venturalakersfan
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| Posted: Thu Feb 13, 2020 7:34 am Post subject: |
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| 3baller wrote: | | miggz23 wrote: | | Outspoken wrote: | | miggz23 wrote: | | governator wrote: | | Caruso/AB/KCP makes Green’s $15mil expiring expendable this summer |
Could have got Bojan Bogdanovic for that money... Damn you Kawhi! |
It's not kawhi's fault the Lakers were waiting for him on hand and foot. They could have moved on. |
With all the reports that was going around. The media and fans would have killed them for not waiting on a player like Kawhi. That's a tough call. |
"The Clippers had come to believe that without a deal for George, Leonard was prepared to sign with the Lakers and create a Staples Center partnership of LeBron James, Anthony Davis and Leonard, sources said." - Woj |
And the Laker FO bought it, hook, line and sinker.
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AFireInside619
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| Posted: Thu Feb 13, 2020 7:40 am Post subject: |
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Trevor Lane said playing Caruso more is like getting a good point guard in a buyout market. I couldn’t agree more. Now get us Harkless somehow.
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venturalakersfan
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| Posted: Thu Feb 13, 2020 7:43 am Post subject: |
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“Somehow” seems to always be the plan.
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RI Laker
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| Posted: Thu Feb 13, 2020 7:44 am Post subject: |
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| You have beat that dead horse over and over and over and over again. We get it. |
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wolfpaclaker
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| Posted: Thu Feb 13, 2020 7:47 am Post subject: |
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If you have a chance to build a super team, arguably maybe the best super team made in decades with LBJ, AD and Kawhi. That is 3 of the top 5 players in the NBA right there. I do not recall a time that has ever happened actually where 3 of the top 5 players on the same team. And you are in the running and one of the favorites to land him, you absolutely do it.
The Lakers had a contingency plan. This was not like signing Mozgov or Deng. This was not a plan D. It was plan A with Kawhi, and Plan B if Kawhi did not come.
When you aim as high as the Lakers did with Kawhi, there can not be a well maybe we can also get another all-star guy because all those guys go to teams fast. You have to pick your target and go all in. The Lakers did that. And they had their backup plan with Green, Bradley, McGee, KCP, Cousins all in line to sign right after Kawhi said no. You better believe those deals were set up BEFORE they knew what Kawhi was going to do. They had a contingency plan for sure. It did not include a Jimmy Butler level player, but one has to also consider whether Jimmy is going to be worth 40M in 2 years from now when Lebron is no longer able to lead a team to the title. Jimmy Butler also wants to be treated like he is the franchise guy, something the Lakers would not be doing.
Considering the circumstances, I think we did great with what we had. Now of course in hindsight if the Lakers knew for sure that Kawhi was not coming, they would have not gone after him, and probably went all out for someone like Kemba Walker or Jimmy Butler maybe. In which case, I get why some can be upset with them. However think back to this place in early July. How much everyone was into the idea of Kawhi coming on board. You can not know the future, all you can do is plan for a contingency if your plan does not work out. Which is what the Lakers did - why did Danny Green wait so long to sign even though he had offers all over the place. He knew LA wanted him if Kawhi would not come. KCP, was in the bag. As was McGee and a few others.
Definitely would have been cool if the Lakers were able to know in advance that Kawhi would do that, so that they could then go and get a better player in FA. |
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AFireInside619
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| Posted: Thu Feb 13, 2020 7:54 am Post subject: |
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| AFireInside619 wrote: | | Trevor Lane said playing Caruso more is like getting a good point guard in a buyout market. I couldn’t agree more. Now get us Harkless somehow. |
Anthony Irwin also mentioned this on twitter. Playing Caruso more is the best trade/buyout we could have made!
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3baller
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| Posted: Thu Feb 13, 2020 7:55 am Post subject: |
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| venturalakersfan wrote: | | 3baller wrote: | | miggz23 wrote: | | Outspoken wrote: | | miggz23 wrote: | | governator wrote: | | Caruso/AB/KCP makes Green’s $15mil expiring expendable this summer |
Could have got Bojan Bogdanovic for that money... Damn you Kawhi! |
It's not kawhi's fault the Lakers were waiting for him on hand and foot. They could have moved on. |
With all the reports that was going around. The media and fans would have killed them for not waiting on a player like Kawhi. That's a tough call. |
"The Clippers had come to believe that without a deal for George, Leonard was prepared to sign with the Lakers and create a Staples Center partnership of LeBron James, Anthony Davis and Leonard, sources said." - Woj |
And the Laker FO bought it, hook, line and sinker. |
Woj reported that after Kawhi had already signed to the clippers lol |
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deal
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| Posted: Thu Feb 13, 2020 8:06 am Post subject: |
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| 3baller wrote: | | venturalakersfan wrote: | | 3baller wrote: | | miggz23 wrote: | | Outspoken wrote: | | miggz23 wrote: | | governator wrote: | | Caruso/AB/KCP makes Green’s $15mil expiring expendable this summer |
Could have got Bojan Bogdanovic for that money... Damn you Kawhi! |
It's not kawhi's fault the Lakers were waiting for him on hand and foot. They could have moved on. |
With all the reports that was going around. The media and fans would have killed them for not waiting on a player like Kawhi. That's a tough call. |
"The Clippers had come to believe that without a deal for George, Leonard was prepared to sign with the Lakers and create a Staples Center partnership of LeBron James, Anthony Davis and Leonard, sources said." - Woj |
And the Laker FO bought it, hook, line and sinker. |
Woj reported that after Kawhi had already signed to the clippers lol |
KL simply played the Laker FO and they were suckered into his waiting game. They could have knocked on his door, and if he said wait, the FO should have said, sure! But moved on to a better support cast than the one that was leftover after the futile wait.
We seem to have been doing this same thing (waiting) for years and nothing good rarely comes of it.
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venturalakersfan
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| Posted: Thu Feb 13, 2020 8:06 am Post subject: |
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| AFireInside619 wrote: | | AFireInside619 wrote: | | Trevor Lane said playing Caruso more is like getting a good point guard in a buyout market. I couldn’t agree more. Now get us Harkless somehow. |
Anthony Irwin also mentioned this on twitter. Playing Caruso more is the best trade/buyout we could have made! |
Caruso was the difference in OT, he brought the defense.
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Dr. Laker
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| Posted: Thu Feb 13, 2020 8:24 am Post subject: |
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| 3baller wrote: | | venturalakersfan wrote: | | 3baller wrote: | | miggz23 wrote: | | Outspoken wrote: | | miggz23 wrote: | | governator wrote: | | Caruso/AB/KCP makes Green’s $15mil expiring expendable this summer |
Could have got Bojan Bogdanovic for that money... Damn you Kawhi! |
It's not kawhi's fault the Lakers were waiting for him on hand and foot. They could have moved on. |
With all the reports that was going around. The media and fans would have killed them for not waiting on a player like Kawhi. That's a tough call. |
"The Clippers had come to believe that without a deal for George, Leonard was prepared to sign with the Lakers and create a Staples Center partnership of LeBron James, Anthony Davis and Leonard, sources said." - Woj |
And the Laker FO bought it, hook, line and sinker. |
Woj reported that after Kawhi had already signed to the clippers lol |
Imagine if KL had signed without the PG trade and the Clippers had kept Danilo Gallinari, Shai Gilgeous-Alexander and 5 first round picks . . .
I don't think PG is giving them what Gallo/SGA would and I'm glad we forced the Clippers to up the ante.
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Inspector Gadget
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| Posted: Thu Feb 13, 2020 8:39 am Post subject: |
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| Can we dangle McGee in trade talks this summer? |
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yinoma2001
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| Posted: Thu Feb 13, 2020 8:45 am Post subject: |
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Playing rondo less = best trade/buyout FA.
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Aeneas Hunter
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| Posted: Thu Feb 13, 2020 8:47 am Post subject: |
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| wolfpaclaker wrote: | | The Lakers had a contingency plan. This was not like signing Mozgov or Deng. This was not a plan D. It was plan A with Kawhi, and Plan B if Kawhi did not come. |
I feel like I should be surprised that some of you are still litigating last July, but after many years on this board, it really doesn't surprise me. The short-ish answers to what you are saying, which you should know by rote at this point, are:
1. Trying to get Leonard is not a problem, but at some point it should have become clear that Leonard was using us for leverage against the Clippers. If it did not become clear to the front office, that is a failure. While staying frozen for an extra 2-3 days was not catastrophic, some possible options signed with other teams during that period.
2. Regardless of #1, Plan B is subject to scrutiny. Some aspects turned out well, such as Howard. Other aspects, such as Rondo and Green, were questionable at the time. If we fall short this season, it is not going to be comforting to know that we were justified in waiting for Leonard. |
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wolfpaclaker
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| Posted: Thu Feb 13, 2020 8:56 am Post subject: |
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Who signed in the 2 extra days that Kawhi made the Lakers wait, that we would have been able to - and understand Aeneas - the Lakers also were on a 2 year contract plan with all non-superstar FAs. From what I understand they only were offering players 2 year deals, aside from the superstars. They had a plan on where they wanted best role players they could find on 2 year deals or sign the max guy. They even scoffed at giving DLO a max 4 year deal.
I mean, I understand the scrutiny, but the team is 41-12. The Lakers were not expected to be where they are after they made the signings. Danny Green may not have been a great signing yearly salary wise, but that is the only way you were going to get him on a short contract. Danny is a team chemsitry 3nD guy. Championship experience. Think he was a good signing, even if yearly salary overpayment.
Lakers had their sights set on Kawhi in 2019, and now have their sights set on 2021. Sure maybe this way of thinking can be criticized, but it is clear that is the way they are going.
The only bad thing about their offseason was that they failed to sign a drive and kick PG (unless one would consider Caruso or Cook one). They leaned on Rondo, who is not that player. And the advanced metrics show, we are a weak pick and roll team when the guard is creating. And without LBJ, our O can dry up. So yeah, signing someone better than Rondo-Bradley-Caruso for the PG would have been great. We probably missed out on a drive and kick PG, but one does not come to mind. DRose instead of Bradley maybe. |
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Jesusdelonla
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| Posted: Thu Feb 13, 2020 9:09 am Post subject: |
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| Inspector Gadget wrote: | | Can we dangle McGee in trade talks this summer? |
Yes once he picks up his PO.
We can get a 2nd for him lol |
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Aeneas Hunter
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| Posted: Thu Feb 13, 2020 9:09 am Post subject: |
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| wolfpaclaker wrote: | | Who signed in the 2 extra days that Kawhi made the Lakers wait, that we would have been able to - and understand Aeneas - the Lakers also were on a 2 year contract plan with all non-superstar FAs. From what I understand they only were offering players 2 year deals, aside from the superstars. They had a plan on where they wanted best role players they could find on 2 year deals or sign the max guy. They even scoffed at giving DLO a max 4 year deal. |
I don't specifically remember which players signed when and where during those two to three days. You'd have to go back to the beginning of this massive thread to dig out the information, and it's purely academic now. I do know that the menu of players got shorter.
As for your larger point, you are assuming your conclusion to some extent. You tell us that the front office strategy required two year contracts. Okay, but that strategy is open to scrutiny. The strategy is not self-validating. If this season ends in a disappointment, it will be a legitimate criticism that the front office went all-in on the Davis trade but then pulled its punches when it came to filling out the roster. So maybe we'll have cap space in a couple years. Hooray. |
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Jesusdelonla
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| Posted: Thu Feb 13, 2020 9:10 am Post subject: |
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Trade McGee and have a rotation of
Cousins
Dwight
Pick up a young center at vet minimum |
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SGVL1
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| Posted: Thu Feb 13, 2020 9:16 am Post subject: |
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| I’m fine with McGee just don’t understand why a dude that age is played 10mpg. Did her develop asthma as an adult?? Correct me if I’m wrong the dude PLAYED FOR THE NUGGETS and now several years later the altitude gets to him as a visiting player? Lol. |
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vasashi17+
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| Posted: Thu Feb 13, 2020 9:23 am Post subject: |
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| Aeneas Hunter wrote: | | wolfpaclaker wrote: | | The Lakers had a contingency plan. This was not like signing Mozgov or Deng. This was not a plan D. It was plan A with Kawhi, and Plan B if Kawhi did not come. |
I feel like I should be surprised that some of you are still litigating last July, but after many years on this board, it really doesn't surprise me. The short-ish answers to what you are saying, which you should know by rote at this point, are:
1. Trying to get Leonard is not a problem, but at some point it should have become clear that Leonard was using us for leverage against the Clippers. If it did not become clear to the front office, that is a failure. While staying frozen for an extra 2-3 days was not catastrophic, some possible options signed with other teams during that period.
2. Regardless of #1, Plan B is subject to scrutiny. Some aspects turned out well, such as Howard. Other aspects, such as Rondo and Green, were questionable at the time. If we fall short this season, it is not going to be comforting to know that we were justified in waiting for Leonard. |
Right on!
I think what folks are choosing to overlook is that free agency isn’t the only way to use cap space. Once Kawhi chose to go elsewhere, you don’t have to scrape the bottom of the FA barrel and use up your entire 34m in space.
10 teams had conducted S&ts and were hardcapped as a result. Some had to get off money (ie Miami stretches Ryan Anderson, nearly dealt Dragic and dealt away Whiteside, Dubs dealt away Iggy, etc.). Some teams handed out their full MLE and those teams are now also hardcapped. So other teams knew we we were waiting on Kawhi and had 34m in space vs Dallas’s 14m at that point in time. If Dallas took Green, we were the only player to have that type of cap space in the entire league. We had days to wait on Kawhi and formulate multiple contingencies with other teams during that time.
After Kawhi was off the board Russ, Cp3, Gallo were suddenly available. Miami was interested, which meant Dragic was also available. Since they ended up stretching RyAnderson, at the very least we could have taken in his expiring 15m along with draft compensation (via Htown or Okc) and then add Kuz to that package later down the line and now we suddenly have something of substance to shop at the trade deadline.
But we chose not to rollover the cap space we hoarded for 2 years. Instead it became 2 year deals as we wait on the 2021 plan to do it all over again. Funny thing is, we don’t have a max spot unless Bron opts out and Kuz gets moved by then.
I understand that hindsight is 20/20, but I just want to point out that there were many contingencies in using our capspace and imo we chose the poorest one.
Now I hope we have the foresight not to do it again in 2021. And about 2021...
| Bard207 wrote: | | governator wrote: | | Caruso/AB/KCP makes Green’s $15mil expiring expendable this summer |
If Pelinka & Co are okay with taking back future salary, then Green's expiring could matter. If they only want expiring back for Green, then the expiring status of his contract will have no significance in a trade. |
...Bard is exactly right. If we sincerely aiming for 2021 free agency, then we won’t use our nearly 40m in expiring deals next year as a means to take on a longterm contract.
So essentially you gotta choose: are you win-now with Bron/AD or do you hold out hopes for Giannis in 2021? The FO needs to pick a lane and stick to it. |
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Baron Von Humongous
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| Posted: Thu Feb 13, 2020 9:41 am Post subject: |
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| Jesusdelonla wrote: | Trade McGee and have a rotation of
Cousins
Dwight
Pick up a young center at vet minimum |
Eh, rather have McGee and not rely on Cousins' deteriorating body.
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Baron Von Humongous
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| Posted: Thu Feb 13, 2020 9:42 am Post subject: |
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| Aeneas Hunter wrote: | | wolfpaclaker wrote: | | Who signed in the 2 extra days that Kawhi made the Lakers wait, that we would have been able to - and understand Aeneas - the Lakers also were on a 2 year contract plan with all non-superstar FAs. From what I understand they only were offering players 2 year deals, aside from the superstars. They had a plan on where they wanted best role players they could find on 2 year deals or sign the max guy. They even scoffed at giving DLO a max 4 year deal. |
I don't specifically remember which players signed when and where during those two to three days. You'd have to go back to the beginning of this massive thread to dig out the information, and it's purely academic now. I do know that the menu of players got shorter.
As for your larger point, you are assuming your conclusion to some extent. You tell us that the front office strategy required two year contracts. Okay, but that strategy is open to scrutiny. The strategy is not self-validating. If this season ends in a disappointment, it will be a legitimate criticism that the front office went all-in on the Davis trade but then pulled its punches when it came to filling out the roster. So maybe we'll have cap space in a couple years. Hooray. |
Green was the absolute right call.
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venturalakersfan
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| Posted: Thu Feb 13, 2020 9:45 am Post subject: |
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| Inspector Gadget wrote: | | Can we dangle McGee in trade talks this summer? |
Doubtful, if he thinks he might be traded he can opt out and control his own future.
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RIP mom. 11-21-1933 to 6-14-2023. |
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Ziggy
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| Posted: Thu Feb 13, 2020 9:56 am Post subject: |
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| I'm going to reserve my judgement on the Green signing until the end of the season. I was pleased with the signing. I expected a little more in the regular season, but he's the kind of player with championship pedigree you sign for the playoffs. He understands the grind and how hard it is to win a title. |
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fansincemagic
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| Posted: Thu Feb 13, 2020 9:58 am Post subject: |
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| AFireInside619 wrote: | | AFireInside619 wrote: | | Trevor Lane said playing Caruso more is like getting a good point guard in a buyout market. I couldn’t agree more. Now get us Harkless somehow. |
Anthony Irwin also mentioned this on twitter. Playing Caruso more is the best trade/buyout we could have made! |
Sounds great, but he only played 5 minutes vs the Suns. Caruso raises everyone's intensity and knows his role, Rondo freezes people out and is useless unless he get's hot off the open Kidd type looks.
Having a 2nd ball handler takes stress from James, and allows him to operate as a versatile threat. It's the biggest hole, but playing a one dimensional player that doesn't actually do what you think he's doing isn't the only way to improve.
They need to get in their sets much quicker. Vogel can only get James to do so much, but learn from Denver...no more walking it up past halfcourt at the 17 second mark and making Davis a jump shooter. KCP, Green and Kuz aren't handle threats, but when they're out there they need to be touching it quicker in the shot clock to at least keep the defense honest. |
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