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Are you happy about Vogel becoming our coach? |
No |
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12% |
[ 62 ] |
Yes |
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54% |
[ 271 ] |
Neutral |
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32% |
[ 163 ] |
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Total Votes : 496 |
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lakez34 Star Player
Joined: 24 Apr 2001 Posts: 6131
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Posted: Fri Oct 22, 2021 8:45 pm Post subject: |
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I have no attachment to Vogel but I also don't think blaming the coach 2 games in is the answer. Players haven't jived well, and rotation players have been injured early. Combine with a bad combo of talent and it makes for a rough start. This is also typical of most Bron teams. How many coaches has he gone through. Kind of par for the course.
My problem is who do you replace him with. |
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lakersboy Star Player
Joined: 20 Jul 2006 Posts: 8525 Location: Left coast
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Posted: Fri Oct 22, 2021 9:01 pm Post subject: |
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dont_be_a_wuss wrote: | Outspoken wrote: | Terrible offensive coach, to me he isn't a good head coach. He would have been better as Ty Lue's lead defensive assistant coach. |
And what is his excuse for the terrible defensive preparation this season?
Maybe Frank is one of those guys who wins one title and starts resting on his laurels. | Last year’s unappreciated defenders no longer with the team:
KCP
Caruso
Kuzma
We’re going to continue to see the defense lacking until/if we see some sort of roster change. |
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Kobetan Star Player
Joined: 05 Sep 2020 Posts: 2966
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Posted: Fri Oct 22, 2021 9:03 pm Post subject: |
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lakersboy wrote: | dont_be_a_wuss wrote: | Outspoken wrote: | Terrible offensive coach, to me he isn't a good head coach. He would have been better as Ty Lue's lead defensive assistant coach. |
And what is his excuse for the terrible defensive preparation this season?
Maybe Frank is one of those guys who wins one title and starts resting on his laurels. | Last year’s unappreciated defenders no longer with the team:
KCP
Caruso
Kuzma
We’re going to continue to see the defense lacking until/if we see some sort of roster change. |
Don't think Carushow was an unappreciated defender, but I get your point |
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BandwagonLBJhopper Star Player
Joined: 07 Feb 2020 Posts: 3609
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Posted: Fri Oct 22, 2021 9:06 pm Post subject: |
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We have gotten blitzed two 3rd quarters in a row. No more Jordan, play guys who compete on D with IQ like Reaves more often. We will see if Vogel has the balls to rock the boat early. |
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mad55557777 Franchise Player
Joined: 29 Jun 2005 Posts: 23619
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Posted: Fri Oct 22, 2021 9:08 pm Post subject: |
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BandwagonLBJhopper wrote: | We have gotten blitzed two 3rd quarters in a row. No more Jordan, play guys who compete on D with IQ like Reaves more often. We will see if Vogel has the balls to rock the boat early. |
DAJ signing was a puzzling move… he basically is dwight clone. gasol brings a different element to this team. I am sure Russ and Lebron got more driving lanes with gasol on the court, just look at the 4th quarter |
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Lonzo-Lite Star Player
Joined: 17 May 2011 Posts: 5102
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Posted: Fri Oct 22, 2021 11:40 pm Post subject: |
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Suns/Warriors offense: pass pass pass wide open 3. Pass pass pass lob/layup.
Lakers offense: hold the ball for 7 secs, pass, hold the ball for 7 secs, iso. _________________ Tacos |
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lakersboy Star Player
Joined: 20 Jul 2006 Posts: 8525 Location: Left coast
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Posted: Fri Oct 22, 2021 11:51 pm Post subject: |
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Kobetan wrote: | lakersboy wrote: | dont_be_a_wuss wrote: | Outspoken wrote: | Terrible offensive coach, to me he isn't a good head coach. He would have been better as Ty Lue's lead defensive assistant coach. |
And what is his excuse for the terrible defensive preparation this season?
Maybe Frank is one of those guys who wins one title and starts resting on his laurels. | Last year’s unappreciated defenders no longer with the team:
KCP
Caruso
Kuzma
We’re going to continue to see the defense lacking until/if we see some sort of roster change. |
Don't think Carushow was an unappreciated defender, but I get your point | If he was appreciated by mgmt he’d still be here. |
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phantasyman Starting Rotation
Joined: 15 Jun 2008 Posts: 635
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Posted: Sat Oct 23, 2021 1:04 am Post subject: |
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I don't think Vogel's style suits this team anymore. They have absolutely no D and....well absolutely no offense. I guess Kidd leaving really meant something |
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wolfpaclaker Retired Number
Joined: 29 May 2002 Posts: 58409
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Posted: Sat Oct 23, 2021 4:53 am Post subject: |
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Vogel needs his PG to stop the ball. Or at least pressure. Bradley did that 2 years ago. KCP/Schroder. This year, Westbrook thus far has been so poor on D. It starts at the very top with that stuff.
Westbrook just doesn't clamp like those fiesty guards that Vogel teams usually have.
I literally can put our entire starting 5s poor D on Westbrook. I see mistakes again and again, just from him not going all out, like he allegedly is so much enamored with. Going all out .... on one end of the floor. The Kobe comparisons in terms of mentality are awful. Kobe if he were a 3rd (or even 2nd option) would go all out on D. Think back to TEAM USA or that first year with Phil/Shaq (Kobe was a #2).
Until Westbrook steps up on D, we're (bleep). |
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scout_0 Star Player
Joined: 22 Oct 2020 Posts: 1810
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Posted: Sat Oct 23, 2021 5:27 am Post subject: |
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No excuse for playing our stars after being blown out by 30, but he didn't want to see that on the headlines and get fired.. what a clown. Risking injuries.
This guy obviously has no idea what he is doing and its clear.
He thinks just because Davis and Bron can score 20-30 it will win you a chip again, that worked during the bubble where Miami made it to the finals.
It's (bleep) simple. We can't be playing these (bleep) guys together
Rondo-Bradley-LeBron
Westbrook-Rondo-LeBron-Dwight
Westbrook-Baze-LeBron-Davis-Deandre
You just can't!!!!
You need spacing and swing the ball around. We are trying to attack down hill and that just doesn't work and takes too much energy!
We need to swing the ball the damn ball and attack off those swings. We need to have off the ball movement. This guy is (bleep) terrible. |
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kikanga Retired Number
Joined: 15 Sep 2012 Posts: 29586 Location: La La Land
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Posted: Sat Oct 23, 2021 5:32 am Post subject: |
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scout_0 wrote: | No excuse for playing our stars after being blown out by 30, but he didn't want to see that on the headlines and get fired.. what a clown. Risking injuries.
This guy obviously has no idea what he is doing and its clear.
He thinks just because Davis and Bron can score 20-30 it will win you a chip again, that worked during the bubble where Miami made it to the finals.
It's (bleep) simple. We can't be playing these (bleep) guys together
Rondo-Bradley-LeBron
Westbrook-Rondo-LeBron-Dwight
Westbrook-Baze-LeBron-Davis-Deandre
You just can't!!!!
You need spacing and swing the ball around. We are trying to attack down hill and that just doesn't work and takes too much energy!
We need to swing the ball the damn ball and attack off those swings. We need to have off the ball movement. This guy is (bleep) terrible. |
Nunn, Ellington, THT, and Ariza are all hurt. 3 out of those 4 guys are floor spacers in our rotation. It's why Reaves had a team high +17.
Till we get the other 1/2 of our rotation back #FreeReaves _________________ "Every hurt is a lesson, and every lesson makes you better” |
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DancingBarry Editor-in-Chief
Joined: 07 Sep 2001 Posts: 40222 Location: O.C.
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Posted: Sat Oct 23, 2021 8:38 am Post subject: |
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phantasyman wrote: | I don't think Vogel's style suits this team anymore. They have absolutely no D and....well absolutely no offense. I guess Kidd leaving really meant something |
Nah. Mavs fans so upset with him right now, lol. |
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DancingBarry Editor-in-Chief
Joined: 07 Sep 2001 Posts: 40222 Location: O.C.
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Posted: Sat Oct 23, 2021 8:47 am Post subject: |
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scout_0 wrote: | No excuse for playing our stars after being blown out by 30, but he didn't want to see that on the headlines and get fired.. what a clown. Risking injuries. |
You have to play them sometime to build chemistry. Resting them in preseason and only playing them two games together then is a big reason we’ve got issues. They have to get reps. If we keep limiting the reps they play, your going to keep seeing limited implementation of our schemes.
Fourth quarter was an extension of the preseason reps we didn’t get. |
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TooMuchMajicBuss Franchise Player
Joined: 17 Sep 2008 Posts: 21097 Location: In a white room, with black curtains near the station
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Posted: Sat Oct 23, 2021 9:13 am Post subject: |
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I think a lot of posters hear are dead wrong about Vogel. Unless it was Vogel telling the front office to let go of our best role players, who to spend a fortune on, and how to fill the roster with, as one poster put it, more guards than Buckingham Palace. Guards who are injured, many of whom can't defend worth a (bleep). No Ariza at all makes this a lot worse.
It's game 2 - a coach doesn't have time to turn a completely unbalanced, incomplete roster into a winning team in 2 games. If this were mid season, then yes blame Vogel. Right now this crappy play is on the players.
The Suns game? Vogel actually did a brilliant job leaving our stars in down 32. With one big twist. He switched up the center spot, going with my least favorite player on the roster, Carmelo Anthony, while trying Reaves out at guard. Guess what? It worked. We actually had a stretch in the late 3rd/4th where we were executing, opening lanes, pulling Suns bigs out of the paint, scoring in the paint, and steamrolling Phoenix, doing everything we didn't do through 6 lousy preseason games and that lousy fourth vs Golden State.
Try and think about it a little. Instead of calling for Vogel's resignation 2 games into the season. |
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venturalakersfan Retired Number
Joined: 14 Apr 2001 Posts: 144559 Location: The Gold Coast
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Posted: Sat Oct 23, 2021 9:21 am Post subject: |
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lakez34 wrote: | I have no attachment to Vogel but I also don't think blaming the coach 2 games in is the answer. Players haven't jived well, and rotation players have been injured early. Combine with a bad combo of talent and it makes for a rough start. This is also typical of most Bron teams. How many coaches has he gone through. Kind of par for the course.
My problem is who do you replace him with. |
And that is the important question. Who is available that could do better? Vogel is average, him agreeing to less salary and letting the organization pick his assistants told us he just wanted a coaching job. And he has been a good coach. Good but unspectacular. Jeanie being too cheap to hire Lue told us where coaching ranks in the organization. Let Frank play this one out, he has earned that. Unless we get to 0-8, then fire him and bring in Magic. Go total s show. _________________ RIP mom. 11-21-1933 to 6-14-2023. |
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lakersfan8 Star Player
Joined: 27 May 2014 Posts: 3000
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Posted: Sat Oct 23, 2021 9:45 am Post subject: |
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An undrafted rookie plays better defense than most of the veterans on this team and some of you think this is a coaching problem? I mean many of us have been saying before the season starts that the major issues of this roster are the lack of defensive players and spacing. What we are seeing shouldn't be a surprise at all. |
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vasashi17+ Star Player
Joined: 13 Dec 2019 Posts: 5676
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Posted: Sat Oct 23, 2021 10:04 am Post subject: |
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Vogs was the wrong hire at HC. Yet, he’s been placed in this predicament by the same folks who hired him. Imho, Vogs will be made the scapegoat, but the real perpetrators are Rob/Kurt.
If ownership/Jeanie wanted to limit a tax hit, they could have configured the roster many different ways than adding 10 minimum contracts to a 3star team with a 5m dead cap hit that they created by stretching out Deng.
That being said, Jeanie/ownership should have spent to bolster our title chances within our Bron-led title window. _________________ Not familiar with the salary cap/CBA rules & how it impacts our Lakers?
#GetFamiliar by CLICKING HERE! |
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Brawn13 Star Player
Joined: 30 Jan 2019 Posts: 3936
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Posted: Sat Oct 23, 2021 10:47 am Post subject: |
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He’s a defensive coach, we knew that about him. So why build a roster that doesn’t cater to what he’s good at? It’s mind boggling.
What made us so good in 2020 is that we had no one you could really exploit on D (except Rondo) this year every team is licking their chops with all the liabilities we trot out together |
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Kobetan Star Player
Joined: 05 Sep 2020 Posts: 2966
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Posted: Sat Oct 23, 2021 12:33 pm Post subject: |
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Brawn13 wrote: | He’s a defensive coach, we knew that about him. So why build a roster that doesn’t cater to what he’s good at? It’s mind boggling.
What made us so good in 2020 is that we had no one you could really exploit on D (except Rondo) this year every team is licking their chops with all the liabilities we trot out together |
It really just feels like a case of a restaurant owner forcing his head chef at an Italian restaurant to compete in a Asian cook off because he bought the wrong ingredients |
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Halflife Franchise Player
Joined: 15 Aug 2015 Posts: 17107
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Posted: Sat Oct 23, 2021 12:46 pm Post subject: |
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Vogel is an excellent coach. He’s not our problem. AD is not being dominant. OUr team had a huge turnover. Let’s see where we land. |
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wolfpaclaker Retired Number
Joined: 29 May 2002 Posts: 58409
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Posted: Sun Oct 24, 2021 6:25 am Post subject: |
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Brawn13 wrote: | He’s a defensive coach, we knew that about him. So why build a roster that doesn’t cater to what he’s good at? It’s mind boggling.
What made us so good in 2020 is that we had no one you could really exploit on D (except Rondo) this year every team is licking their chops with all the liabilities we trot out together |
A good defensive coach like Vogel will figure out the right lineups and defenders. He figured out Baze was the best defender and started him. Got a KCP replacement for the vet min. Now he's got to find a way to get Westbrook to be better on D, and Westbrook has the tools. Why is Westbrook sagging off his man? He should be aggressive on the ball like Bradley was 2 years ago. Avery is less athletic than RW and definitely not a PG. Yet 2 years ago he was defending all our PGs.
I think he has figured out the starting 5 with DAJ/AD/Bron/Baze/RW. If RW stops the ball better, we will get elite D with that group. Trust me, both games, we had leads with that lineup.
The bleeding is happening when rotations kick in. When we start bringing in guys like Monk, Melo, Dwight, Rondo. And we run Westbrook as the PG without Bron. We're getting killed. We need to find a 2nd unit that plays D. We have none.
We need Ariza, Ellington, THT, Nunn. Those guys are all capable defenders. It will allow Vogel to get some defensive 2-way talent and you don't have to rely on guys like Melo, Monk, Westbrook (when he isn't defending) on that 2nd unit.
Our problems are not that we start DAJ. Look at the game logs. The bleeding happens as soon as we go into our rotations. We need to get some better defense from our 2nd unit. And Russell, needs to play better and fit in, which may or may not happen, and could take a long time. |
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Stumpy25 Star Player
Joined: 27 Oct 2016 Posts: 1314
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Posted: Sun Oct 24, 2021 7:47 am Post subject: |
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Halflife wrote: | Vogel is an excellent coach. He’s not our problem. AD is not being dominant. OUr team had a huge turnover. Let’s see where we land. |
I agree changing will do nothing except make things worse. |
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lakersfan8 Star Player
Joined: 27 May 2014 Posts: 3000
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Posted: Sun Oct 24, 2021 9:00 am Post subject: |
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wolfpaclaker wrote: | Brawn13 wrote: | He’s a defensive coach, we knew that about him. So why build a roster that doesn’t cater to what he’s good at? It’s mind boggling.
What made us so good in 2020 is that we had no one you could really exploit on D (except Rondo) this year every team is licking their chops with all the liabilities we trot out together |
A good defensive coach like Vogel will figure out the right lineups and defenders. He figured out Baze was the best defender and started him. Got a KCP replacement for the vet min. Now he's got to find a way to get Westbrook to be better on D, and Westbrook has the tools. Why is Westbrook sagging off his man? He should be aggressive on the ball like Bradley was 2 years ago. Avery is less athletic than RW and definitely not a PG. Yet 2 years ago he was defending all our PGs.
I think he has figured out the starting 5 with DAJ/AD/Bron/Baze/RW. If RW stops the ball better, we will get elite D with that group. Trust me, both games, we had leads with that lineup.
The bleeding is happening when rotations kick in. When we start bringing in guys like Monk, Melo, Dwight, Rondo. And we run Westbrook as the PG without Bron. We're getting killed. We need to find a 2nd unit that plays D. We have none.
We need Ariza, Ellington, THT, Nunn. Those guys are all capable defenders. It will allow Vogel to get some defensive 2-way talent and you don't have to rely on guys like Melo, Monk, Westbrook (when he isn't defending) on that 2nd unit.
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I think you will be disappointed. Ellington is not a capable defender. THT still made defensive mistakes from time to time. How much Ariza still has in the tank is still unknown. The only hope is Nunn but he can't save the whole unit by himself. |
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oaktown_dimond Star Player
Joined: 16 Nov 2007 Posts: 1367
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Posted: Sun Oct 24, 2021 9:36 am Post subject: |
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And just play the rook. Sample size is still too small, but HBK "gets it". You want to play? Make the right plays and play D.
He knows they need a Caruso replacement and he's trying his best. Not as athletic, maybe not as strong (yet), but taller and like 20 more pounds on him. Plus Austin has the potential to be the better shooter.
I'm not comparing the two because they are both white but Reaves knows if he wants more playing time, play like Alex. But shoot better.
Hell, all the bench should follow that same thinking.
lakersfan8 wrote: | wolfpaclaker wrote: | Brawn13 wrote: | He’s a defensive coach, we knew that about him. So why build a roster that doesn’t cater to what he’s good at? It’s mind boggling.
What made us so good in 2020 is that we had no one you could really exploit on D (except Rondo) this year every team is licking their chops with all the liabilities we trot out together |
A good defensive coach like Vogel will figure out the right lineups and defenders. He figured out Baze was the best defender and started him. Got a KCP replacement for the vet min. Now he's got to find a way to get Westbrook to be better on D, and Westbrook has the tools. Why is Westbrook sagging off his man? He should be aggressive on the ball like Bradley was 2 years ago. Avery is less athletic than RW and definitely not a PG. Yet 2 years ago he was defending all our PGs.
I think he has figured out the starting 5 with DAJ/AD/Bron/Baze/RW. If RW stops the ball better, we will get elite D with that group. Trust me, both games, we had leads with that lineup.
The bleeding is happening when rotations kick in. When we start bringing in guys like Monk, Melo, Dwight, Rondo. And we run Westbrook as the PG without Bron. We're getting killed. We need to find a 2nd unit that plays D. We have none.
We need Ariza, Ellington, THT, Nunn. Those guys are all capable defenders. It will allow Vogel to get some defensive 2-way talent and you don't have to rely on guys like Melo, Monk, Westbrook (when he isn't defending) on that 2nd unit.
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I think you will be disappointed. Ellington is not a capable defender. THT still made defensive mistakes from time to time. How much Ariza still has in the tank is still unknown. The only hope is Nunn but he can't save the whole unit by himself. |
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MJST Retired Number
Joined: 06 Jul 2014 Posts: 26754
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Posted: Sun Oct 24, 2021 4:03 pm Post subject: |
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Amazing some of ya'll still think Vogel knows what he's doing.
He looked at the layout and age of this team and decided this was the best course of action
Frank Vogel wants Lakers to be “best fast-breaking team”
“We want to be the best fast-breaking team in the NBA. We have dynamic players, and then adding a guy like Russ and the speed that he brings to the table, we want to support him and get everybody running. That’s when we’re going to be at our best, that’s when we were at our best two years ago when we led the league in fast-break points, and I think those two things, along with some different early offense looks that we put in — that are a little bit different than who we were last year — to open things up.”
https://lakersoutsiders.com/2021/10/01/frank-vogel-lakers-best-fast-breaking-team/
To look at a team as old as we are, and go "We want to be the best fast break team in the league!" or that you'd even want to run a fast pace, is probably one of the most idiotic things you COULD do. _________________ How NBA 2K18 failed the All-Time Lakers:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kxMBYm3wwxk |
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