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Vercetti
Star Player
Joined: 08 Mar 2008
Posts: 4610
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 Posted: Sat May 25, 2019 8:01 pm Post subject: |
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| Wrong. Wasting the #2 pick on him was a tremendous mistake. |
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PDX_LAKERFAN
Star Player
Joined: 20 Jan 2004
Posts: 2555
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| Posted: Sat May 25, 2019 9:17 pm Post subject: |
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| We need Lonzo to shoot 70% on his free throws this year at the least. If he can do that I believe the rest of his offensive game will flow so much better. |
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unleasHell
Franchise Player
Joined: 16 Apr 2001
Posts: 11591
Location: Stay Thirsty my Friends
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| Posted: Sat May 25, 2019 9:34 pm Post subject: Re: Trading lonzo ball would be a tremendous mistake |
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| whitemamba wrote: | | unleasHell wrote: | | whitemamba wrote: | | First time he’s had a full off season under his belt , he’s going to be a walking triple double next year, lakers should not blow up this core. deal anyone else keep zo. |
Huh?
Do you know how he spends his off-season?
Making Rap records perhaps?
Caring for his baby perhaps?
Worrying about his Shoe deal perhaps?
Listening to his dad perhaps?
Working on his 3point shot? HOPEFULLY
Working on his Free Throws? HOPEFULLY
This is a guy who has averaged 10ppg in 2 seasons (which is kinda low right?), missed 57% of his FT's (which is REALLY low, right?), missed about 70% of his 3point shots (Which is also really low, right?) and has missed an average of 30+ games per year (Which is terrible for a young guy, right?)..
A guy who is under contract to make $11mil in the 2020/21, (which is kinda high based on his poor stats, don't ya think?)
Trade him as fast as possible and move on, Lakers would be LUCKY to get the Suns or Bulls first round pick for him... |
Can you read? Do you understand that player development takes time? This is the first time he’s had a full offseason under his belt.. how can he train if he’s hurt. Lakers are extremely sensitive with injuries. Ball possesses something only a few players ever had. Team first! Elite defense st a young age , go look up Giannis first few years numbers and come back to me. Rome wasn’t build in a day kid. |
LOL, "kid", I'm older than you!
yeah, I CAN read, in fact, I read Zo's actuall Stats and posted them here for everyone else to READ. So reading is not the problem.
Now, if you ask me if I am clairvoyant (DEFINITION: having or exhibiting an ability to perceive events in the future or beyond normal sensory contact.) I would answer "NO", my thoughts on Zo are purely based on his statistics (these are REAL things).
I seriously doubt that you are clairvoyant, as if you were, you would have already won the Lottery several times and not be wasting your time in here!
Therefore, one can only perceive that your "feelings" on Zo are based on hope, speculation, desire, conjecture or perhaps a "gut feeling", none of which hold water...
Not sure why you feel you have to go to war over your thread(?), you made a statement, people disagree...let go, trust me, you'll feel better...
And I've heard that Rome was not built in a day, and I'll be there in three weeks to check it out...!
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“Always remember... Rumors are carried by haters, spread by fools, and accepted by idiots.” |
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trablos
Star Player
Joined: 10 May 2017
Posts: 3020
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| Posted: Sat May 25, 2019 10:03 pm Post subject: |
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| Wasn't Lonzo shooting 35% on spot up 3's before he got injured? I don't think it's farfetched to assume he comes back as a much improved shooter and scorer. He has 4 full months to put the work in, I believe he'll be at least good enough to keep the defense honest. |
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kobe8One
Starting Rotation
Joined: 23 May 2011
Posts: 633
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| Posted: Sat May 25, 2019 10:20 pm Post subject: |
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| wolfpaclaker wrote: | You look at the best teams in the league, they all have a point guard that can shoot and attack. Ball is a passive point guard, he doesn't shoot well. I understand his value in the old NBA, or if the entire team were built around his playmaking skills - meaning he would average 10-12 assists a night, and be more of the primary initiator of the team. If we ran the team around him like a young CP3 or Jason Kidd, ok. But with LBJ we won't ever play that way around Ball.
With Lebron, I suspect we need a guard that can shoot, attack quickly off the dribble. Take advantage of the isolations, because doubles don't come easily with LBJ out there. Ball can not do any of this. This is why Kyrie had so much success with LBJ, as did Wade. Both Wade and Kyrie had the ability to take advantage of LBJ being the defensive team's focus. They were great iso players, capable to make quick drives of short angles from the wing. Ball isn't this type of player.
I really like Ball as a longterm prospect, but on a championship level team, he's a 5th option role player, best suited to be a backup PG. He can't even play the Derek Fisher role as his 3 point shot isn't consistent nor does he have the same leadership skills. A really good prospect, but the right move for the Lakers if they have this option is to trade Ball to get immediate help to try and win a ring around LBJ. |
Totally agreed.
1. Today you need to have great offense skills to play the guard position.
2. GSW likes to double team and force you to pass to the open shooter which you have to make the open shot.
3. You have to make your free throws in a close game.
4. Suns traded Kidd when he was 10 times better than Ball right now |
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LKA
Star Player
Joined: 06 Oct 2018
Posts: 5181
Location: Sin City
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| Posted: Sat May 25, 2019 11:29 pm Post subject: |
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| whitemamba wrote: | | LKA wrote: | Jason Kidd reference is valid. Mainly because they are similar in play styles. The Giannis comparison just random and pointless, Giannis is truly transcendent in every form. Lonzo , not so much. Tho he does possess an elite skill already at least (his passing). Which is why I'm higher on him than Ingram, he isn't elite at anything.
Kidd was Rookie of the Year btw.
With Lonzo .. until he improves his shooting and ball handling he is essentially 6'6" Rubio. A solid player to have on the team but not necessarily a guy you'd wanna base your future around.
Tough to say what he will or won't be. I'm keeping some hope for Lonzo but if we could package him and Ingram for a Beal or someone good that would help LeBron right away I'd do it. It's hard for me to put much faith in that ugly shooting stroke. Defense and passing is good tho |
Kidd was rookie of the year with worse numbers than lonzo iirc. And I’m not comparing zo to Giannis I’m pointing out that player development takes time. |
You're basically saying Lonzo is transcendent like Giannis, he's not
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I just put my whole damn arm in the fridge
10 chains on Lucky Charms I'm the (bleep) |
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trablos
Star Player
Joined: 10 May 2017
Posts: 3020
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| Posted: Sat May 25, 2019 11:37 pm Post subject: |
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| wolfpaclaker wrote: | You look at the best teams in the league, they all have a point guard that can shoot and attack. Ball is a passive point guard, he doesn't shoot well. I understand his value in the old NBA, or if the entire team were built around his playmaking skills - meaning he would average 10-12 assists a night, and be more of the primary initiator of the team. If we ran the team around him like a young CP3 or Jason Kidd, ok. But with LBJ we won't ever play that way around Ball.
With Lebron, I suspect we need a guard that can shoot, attack quickly off the dribble. Take advantage of the isolations, because doubles don't come easily with LBJ out there. Ball can not do any of this. This is why Kyrie had so much success with LBJ, as did Wade. Both Wade and Kyrie had the ability to take advantage of LBJ being the defensive team's focus. They were great iso players, capable to make quick drives of short angles from the wing. Ball isn't this type of player.
I really like Ball as a longterm prospect, but on a championship level team, he's a 5th option role player, best suited to be a backup PG. He can't even play the Derek Fisher role as his 3 point shot isn't consistent nor does he have the same leadership skills. A really good prospect, but the right move for the Lakers if they have this option is to trade Ball to get immediate help to try and win a ring around LBJ. |
Agree with all of this, but we saw Lonzo coming into his own before he rolled his ankle. Playing much more aggressive, shooting around 35% on 3's, really just controlling our offense along with playing tremendous defense. Those types of guys don't grow on trees. Point is, his flaws are very fixable and there is reason to believe he can become a much better scorer/shooter in the next 1-2 years. Plus he's the exact type of unselfish, "ball on a string" type player you want to surround your superstars with. That being said I'd be willing to move him if it nets us a great scoring guard in return. |
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l4kerz
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Joined: 10 Jan 2010
Posts: 1572
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| Posted: Sun May 26, 2019 12:37 am Post subject: |
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| What’s best for Lonzo is to actually get traded to a team where he can shoot all he wants with less pressure, similar to DLO. Once he fixes his flaws, he can come back to his hometown on his next contract. |
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Hydro21
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Joined: 20 May 2005
Posts: 2392
Location: NYC
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| Posted: Sun May 26, 2019 1:45 am Post subject: |
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| All I know is both a Julius and Russell came into there own at year 4 .. I wouldn’t be so quick to think you know exactly the player is. 2 years in maybe if he came at 22-23 I could under stand . But these young kids develop different . This will be Lonzo first healthy offseason with nba level training working on his game.. I’m excited to see how much better he becomes . |
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wolfpaclaker
Retired Number
Joined: 29 May 2002
Posts: 58374
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| Posted: Sun May 26, 2019 3:37 am Post subject: |
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| trablos wrote: | | wolfpaclaker wrote: | You look at the best teams in the league, they all have a point guard that can shoot and attack. Ball is a passive point guard, he doesn't shoot well. I understand his value in the old NBA, or if the entire team were built around his playmaking skills - meaning he would average 10-12 assists a night, and be more of the primary initiator of the team. If we ran the team around him like a young CP3 or Jason Kidd, ok. But with LBJ we won't ever play that way around Ball.
With Lebron, I suspect we need a guard that can shoot, attack quickly off the dribble. Take advantage of the isolations, because doubles don't come easily with LBJ out there. Ball can not do any of this. This is why Kyrie had so much success with LBJ, as did Wade. Both Wade and Kyrie had the ability to take advantage of LBJ being the defensive team's focus. They were great iso players, capable to make quick drives of short angles from the wing. Ball isn't this type of player.
I really like Ball as a longterm prospect, but on a championship level team, he's a 5th option role player, best suited to be a backup PG. He can't even play the Derek Fisher role as his 3 point shot isn't consistent nor does he have the same leadership skills. A really good prospect, but the right move for the Lakers if they have this option is to trade Ball to get immediate help to try and win a ring around LBJ. |
Agree with all of this, but we saw Lonzo coming into his own before he rolled his ankle. Playing much more aggressive, shooting around 35% on 3's, really just controlling our offense along with playing tremendous defense. Those types of guys don't grow on trees. Point is, his flaws are very fixable and there is reason to believe he can become a much better scorer/shooter in the next 1-2 years. Plus he's the exact type of unselfish, "ball on a string" type player you want to surround your superstars with. That being said I'd be willing to move him if it nets us a great scoring guard in return. |
What you described is what he needs to be on a consistent basis. For season 1 and 2 he has been a below average shooter. He's been passive. I understand he is very young and that he is now playing in Lebron's shadow. However, there are two years here where the Lakers can possibly compete for a championship. If they can get a player who is able to give you 20 points a night, 3 point shooting, point guard playmaking, then you have to sign off on that and move Lonzo. This is the scenario I trade Lonzo under - not just for the sake of it, or for the sake of getting another draft pick. Right now we can't absolutely say he can start on a championship level team. Which is why I'd be open to move him if we were able to put the pieces around LBJ to compete for a title next year. |
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cthroatgtr
Star Player
Joined: 21 Aug 2005
Posts: 1375
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| Posted: Sun May 26, 2019 3:40 am Post subject: |
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| All depends on what you get and what FA come to the team. If you sign Kyrie then is Lonzo going to work at SG? If you can trade Lonzo to get AD, of course you do that. De'Angelo was to free cap space. I don't think you want to trade Lonzo without getting value in return, not just trade him to trade him. |
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wolfpaclaker
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Joined: 29 May 2002
Posts: 58374
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| Posted: Sun May 26, 2019 3:45 am Post subject: |
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| cthroatgtr wrote: | | All depends on what you get and what FA come to the team. If you sign Kyrie then is Lonzo going to work at SG? If you can trade Lonzo to get AD, of course you do that. De'Angelo was to free cap space. I don't think you want to trade Lonzo without getting value in return, not just trade him to trade him. |
Yep - to trade Russell, they wound up getting capspace. Should have kept Bro Lopez too, so they'd have Lebron AND Bro Lopez to show for Russell. Magic admits he made a boo boo.
Now for Lonzo, it's not trade him like Russell first and then see the results a year or two later. It's the opposite. If you can get the all-star in place, the second all-star, THEN you consider trading him. You don't trade him in hopes someone better will come. Because you already have the capspace. You already have draft picks, and great trade assets.
So it's just about going all in. We are sort of like the Boston Celtics of 2007, summer. Lebron's better than that version of Paul Pierce. However the team has young players and good draft picks around an aging wingman, who has a few good all-star level years left. We have the assets to go all in. Can we get the 2 big pieces we need (Like Boston did with KG and Ray)? IDK. Will be tough. But certainly trading Lonzo Ball should not stop us from getting there. We should aim for that first, as a plan A. If Lonzo is a casualty of that, it's how the business works. |
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lakersboy
Star Player
Joined: 20 Jul 2006
Posts: 8518
Location: Left coast
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| Posted: Sun May 26, 2019 7:07 am Post subject: |
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| Richcbt wrote: | | lakersboy wrote: | The opinions expressed here are incredibly short sighted and lack the ability to perceive lessons learned from teams like Indiana and OKC.
Lonzo was beginning to improve his offensive flaws before his injury, and like Ingram and Kuzma, he needs time to gain his man strength which will stabilize his body, just like it did for Shaun Livingston. Unfortunately for Livingston, he was projected to be a star, but was so scrawny, he tore up his knee and the best part of his basketball future.
Anyone who ever paid attention to a child's growth can relate. It's summer time. Lonzo has no injuries. What do basketball players do when they get time? Those who are driven work to get better. Is he making rap videos all summer? With 5 healthy months to work on weaknesses including improving shooting, scoring opportunities and abilities, why should we not expect to see a better, more effective player next season? Do doubters know something the rest of us don't?
Someone mentioned Harden, the guy whose career is known for being worthless on D. In his one Final's appearance in OKC, he shot poorly and ownership didn't want to pay $4 mil in luxury tax for that guy. So he was traded for scraps, the most famous of which was Jeremy Lamb. Coincidentally, now that he has matured and gotten stronger, he's playing better D. Also, shaming/comparing a 2nd yr player for not getting to the ft line the way the seasoned vet does, who happens to be the best in the game at it, is just a cheap way to entertain yourself and those who buy into that reasoning. Keep laughing.
Kawhi and Giannis were defensive players who were undervalued at the draft but needed time to work, gain strength, and figure things out.
Indiana didn't have time to watch Kawhi grow because they were a pg away from competing with Miami. They made the "wise" choice to cut bait asap and trade the soon to be super star for George Hill. They lost to Lebron in 7, then their core, including PG13, split up. But at least they almost got there.
Sure, AD is a big name, but again we've learned nothing from history. Lebron is aging, AD wins nothing by himself and also has injury issues. But hey, we have assets to trade and have to make something happen, and it has to be right now. How does that work out historically? |
Thank you for expressing so well my opinions on Lonzo. He's a beast defensively, and if he stayed healthy would have a good chance to make All-NBA first defensive team as early as next year. You can bet he's working his butt off all summer on his shooting, as well as free throw shooting. I'd love to see him drive to the hoop more, and saw glimpses of him starting to do that last year. A little floater shot would be an awesome weapon for him, because he has great speed, as well as good hops, but just doesn't seem to hang in the air like the good closers do around the hoop. |
In before the "Official crow eating/Nobody could have foreseen this" thread begins. |
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Halflife
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Joined: 15 Aug 2015
Posts: 16876
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| Posted: Sun May 26, 2019 7:27 am Post subject: |
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| Agree with title. He is elite at everything other than shooting |
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Kobesystem
Starting Rotation
Joined: 29 Dec 2018
Posts: 641
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| Posted: Sun May 26, 2019 7:29 am Post subject: |
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| Halflife wrote: | | Agree with title. He is elite at everything other than shooting |
not rele. |
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Halflife
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Joined: 15 Aug 2015
Posts: 16876
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| Posted: Sun May 26, 2019 7:32 am Post subject: |
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| Kobesystem wrote: | | Halflife wrote: | | Agree with title. He is elite at everything other than shooting |
not rele. |
Elite:
Defending
Passing
Pace
Vision
Decision making |
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Kobesystem
Starting Rotation
Joined: 29 Dec 2018
Posts: 641
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| Posted: Sun May 26, 2019 7:37 am Post subject: |
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| Halflife wrote: | | Kobesystem wrote: | | Halflife wrote: | | Agree with title. He is elite at everything other than shooting |
not rele. |
Elite:
Defending
Passing
Pace
Vision
Decision making |
His passing isn't really elite nor is his vision. He's great running in the open court and playing transition ball, but definitely not in the halfcourt. It's difficult to utilize your passing when you pose zero offensive threat (in the halfcourt). Rubio was elite with his vision/passing, even with zero scoring threat. Lonzo is not in his level running the game at halfcourt.
Defending? Ummm, he's good and definitely better than what he was suppose to be, but elite is kind of pushing it honestly....
You guys make it seem like his shot is his only negative when half his game is way below average...... |
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Halflife
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Joined: 15 Aug 2015
Posts: 16876
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| Posted: Sun May 26, 2019 7:42 am Post subject: |
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| Kobesystem wrote: | | Halflife wrote: | | Kobesystem wrote: | | Halflife wrote: | | Agree with title. He is elite at everything other than shooting |
not rele. |
Elite:
Defending
Passing
Pace
Vision
Decision making |
His passing isn't really elite nor is his vision. He's great running in the open court and playing transition ball, but definitely not in the halfcourt. It's difficult to utilize your passing when you pose zero offensive threat (in the halfcourt). Rubio was elite with his vision/passing, even with zero scoring threat. Lonzo is not in his level running the game at halfcourt.
Defending? Ummm, he's good and definitely better than what he was suppose to be, but elite is kind of pushing it honestly....
You guys make it seem like his shot is his only negative when half his game is way below average...... |
ahh. Now i get it. "You guys". Clipper fan? |
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Kobesystem
Starting Rotation
Joined: 29 Dec 2018
Posts: 641
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| Posted: Sun May 26, 2019 7:44 am Post subject: |
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| Halflife wrote: | | Kobesystem wrote: | | Halflife wrote: | | Kobesystem wrote: | | Halflife wrote: | | Agree with title. He is elite at everything other than shooting |
not rele. |
Elite:
Defending
Passing
Pace
Vision
Decision making |
His passing isn't really elite nor is his vision. He's great running in the open court and playing transition ball, but definitely not in the halfcourt. It's difficult to utilize your passing when you pose zero offensive threat (in the halfcourt). Rubio was elite with his vision/passing, even with zero scoring threat. Lonzo is not in his level running the game at halfcourt.
Defending? Ummm, he's good and definitely better than what he was suppose to be, but elite is kind of pushing it honestly....
You guys make it seem like his shot is his only negative when half his game is way below average...... |
ahh. Now i get it. "You guys". Clipper fan? |
No, you guys as in blind lonzo homers.... |
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Sentient Meat
Franchise Player
Joined: 04 Jul 2014
Posts: 12978
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| Posted: Sun May 26, 2019 8:33 am Post subject: |
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eFG at 21 years old
Lonzo 48.8%
Kobe 48.8%
Kyrie 48.0%
Jrue 47.1%
Russ 42.8%
Kemba 41.1%
Ripley's Believe It or Not |
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BigGameHames
Star Player
Joined: 24 May 2015
Posts: 7982
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| Posted: Sun May 26, 2019 8:59 am Post subject: |
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| lakersfever714 wrote: | | Quote: | One general manager suggested not to diminish the upside on those players, contending the Lakers still have the best trade assets. "That's what they look like in that environment -- and playing with that guy," the GM told NBC Sports Washington.
If there's a deal with the Lakers, most sources would want Ball involved regardless of any parent distractions from his attention-seeking father, Lavar. "People just don't grasp how good he is," a source said. |
I hate these anonymous sources from nobody. They keep saying how GREAT Lonzo is but when it comes to actual trading, nobody wants him. New Orleans didn't really jump out of their shoes when he was offered. Did the Spurs get excited when we offered him for Kawhi or did they even ask for Lonzo? |
It was reported NO was highest on Zo outta the young core... |
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laker50
Star Player
Joined: 07 Mar 2014
Posts: 2140
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| Posted: Sun May 26, 2019 9:02 am Post subject: |
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Once Lonzo gets his shooting straight he will be a valuable asset.
At UCLA he shot much better. 70% at line.
And he did right by altering his mechanics this year but somehow got back to old habits.
It is confidence and better mechanics.
He desperately needs to find a shooting coach.
Even more than those singing videos as doubt he is Elvis. |
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ForumBlueFrank
Franchise Player
Joined: 08 Nov 2006
Posts: 12889
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| Posted: Sun May 26, 2019 9:08 am Post subject: |
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Reading this thread it's clear that many people are still going with the narrative that was built up in his first 2 months of his rookie year, and have decided to die on that hill. Now we have arm chair analysts here saying his vision and defense is just average, lol....and for all the naysayers harping about his outside shot, Zo shot a better percentage from three than Booker last season.
The guy is a unique and gifted talent, and much more of unicorn than Porky. I think the Lakers staff knows this and believes in him, hence the Kidd hiring. I seriously doubt he will be traded, he's more valuable then people give him credit for. He just needs to stay healthy, and hopefully Judy will help fix his ankle issues. |
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Sentient Meat
Franchise Player
Joined: 04 Jul 2014
Posts: 12978
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| Posted: Sun May 26, 2019 9:16 am Post subject: |
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eFG% for OKC's big three KD and Russ at 22. Harden at 21
KD 50.9%
Russ 45.1%
Harden 51.8%
Our young core Ingram and Lonzo at 21... Kuzma at 23
Ingram 51.8%
Lonzo 48.8%
Kuzma 51.5%
But no... let's trade them all for AD who has won nothing plus Garland.
F*cking idiots if they do it. |
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GonzagaAlum
Star Player
Joined: 09 Dec 2005
Posts: 3021
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| Posted: Sun May 26, 2019 9:22 am Post subject: |
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Trading Michael Carter Williams with better court vision is a fine idea in my book.
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I would be willing to pay you for it. |
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