I agree with the points being made by AH and AV here. Ryan is an interesting analog. Kobe played in a very similar way to how Ryan pitched.
I think the main point I wanted to make was that I expect Kobe’s legacy to age very poorly relative to other greats specifically because of the rise of “advanced” stats and the various metrics that are now readily available to the public. Kobe does not fare well by these numbers and the growing trend among serious fans and the media, as far as I can tell, is to value advanced stats over individual accomplishments such as championships, All-NBA teams, records, etc.
I think in 20 years you might see Kobe ranked a lot lower than 14 or whatever the offending number in this thread was. I don’t agree with it, but I don’t expect the fact he won so many rings to outweigh the fact that so many of his contemporaries have better advanced stats and metric evaluations.
Dude was a beast that would rip the heart out of most players with those wonderful metrics people value so much at present.
“Experts” can rank him how they see fit.
But some of the most important aspects of an athlete can never be analyzed or quantified.
Like Rudy Tom-Tom say: “Never underestimate the heart of a champion!”
Show me which advanced stat measures a players Heart and I might start giving a Sh**
I evaluate players by whether they give 110%, they bring their A game, they do all the little things, they’re natural born leaders, they refuse to be denied, and they thank God after winning.
Joined: 15 Sep 2012 Posts: 29457 Location: La La Land
Posted: Tue Jan 21, 2020 3:54 pm Post subject:
L4L wrote:
I do not think the near future is going to be kind to Kobe’s legacy. When the last people who saw him play stop caring about arguing in favor of him, people are going to be swayed by things like Win Shares, BPM, RAPM, etc. Those metrics do not like Kobe very much in the context of a GOAT discussion. You’re going to see people putting guys like Wade, Harden, Durant, CP3, and other metric-darlings ahead of him in all-time rankings. It’s not that far off from happening. Go read non-Lakers boards and you’ll see there’s a very large contingent that has him in basically AI territory in terms of legacy. Based on stats, they think he’s one of the most overrated players of all-time.
Fans value statistics more than reputation when it comes to players they didn’t see play... even statistics that have severe limitations that, IMO, don’t make them appropriate to help settle arguments between players of close skill levels/impact.
When your team doesn't win chips. You convince yourself they don't matter. Not surprised by your description of fans on non-Lakers boards. _________________ "Every hurt is a lesson, and every lesson makes you better”
Last edited by kikanga on Tue Jan 21, 2020 3:56 pm; edited 1 time in total
I evaluate players by whether they give 110%, they bring their A game, they do all the little things, they’re natural born leaders, they refuse to be denied, and they thank God after winning.
And whether they make their teammates better. Honorable mention goes to whether they’re clutch.
I do not think the near future is going to be kind to Kobe’s legacy. When the last people who saw him play stop caring about arguing in favor of him, people are going to be swayed by things like Win Shares, BPM, RAPM, etc. Those metrics do not like Kobe very much in the context of a GOAT discussion. You’re going to see people putting guys like Wade, Harden, Durant, CP3, and other metric-darlings ahead of him in all-time rankings. It’s not that far off from happening. Go read non-Lakers boards and you’ll see there’s a very large contingent that has him in basically AI territory in terms of legacy. Based on stats, they think he’s one of the most overrated players of all-time.
Fans value statistics more than reputation when it comes to players they didn’t see play... even statistics that have severe limitations that, IMO, don’t make them appropriate to help settle arguments between players of close skill levels/impact.
Eventually athletes tend to be reduced to a page of stats or their singular accomplishments.
That's just the nature of things. Most people are not historians, and they don't care that much about the eras that preceded the period when they started following a sport.
Eventually, the Kobe debates on this board will be greeted with the same indifference that a Magic-Bird or Wilt-Russell or West-Oscar debate would be greeted today. Happens to everyone. Out with the old, in with the new.
Doesn’t change just how great Kobe was.
Of course. Just as the relative indifference people have to, oh, Oscar, Bob Pettit, etc. don't change how great they were. The main point is that over time the nuances and subjective qualities become less important in player's reputation because over time fewer people know who the player was.
That's why Oscar became primarily known as the triple-double guy, and his reputation took a nosedive when Westbrook matched that feat and diminished it. Oscar has been reduced to nothing but a page of stats, and the stats aren't as impressive as they once were.
But again that's life. I am sure there were athletes in ancient greece that people of the day thought would be remembered forever.
All we are is dust in the wind.
Players set the goals for themselves.
Some want to fill the stats. Some want the real thing without really care about triple doubles or fg%. When one has to take a shot from anywhere with 2 seconds left, he doesnt care about fg%. Stats padders wont do that.
Again, who is impressed by Westbrook here?
Not me. Triple doubles is a goal set before a game. Luka a new comer, an import product shows you how "easy" to do it if you want to achieve it. _________________ Kobe's Top 5 Dunks, 81 points, MJ last gm @Staples
I agree with the points being made by AH and AV here. Ryan is an interesting analog. Kobe played in a very similar way to how Ryan pitched.
I think the main point I wanted to make was that I expect Kobe’s legacy to age very poorly relative to other greats specifically because of the rise of “advanced” stats and the various metrics that are now readily available to the public. Kobe does not fare well by these numbers and the growing trend among serious fans and the media, as far as I can tell, is to value advanced stats over individual accomplishments such as championships, All-NBA teams, records, etc.
I think in 20 years you might see Kobe ranked a lot lower than 14 or whatever the offending number in this thread was. I don’t agree with it, but I don’t expect the fact he won so many rings to outweigh the fact that so many of his contemporaries have better advanced stats and metric evaluations.
Dude was a beast that would rip the heart out of most players with those wonderful metrics people value so much at present.
“Experts” can rank him how they see fit.
But some of the most important aspects of an athlete can never be analyzed or quantified.
Like Rudy Tom-Tom say: “Never underestimate the heart of a champion!”
Show me which advanced stat measures a players Heart and I might start giving a Sh**
I evaluate players by whether they give 110%, they bring their A game, they do all the little things, they’re natural born leaders, they refuse to be denied, and they thank God after winning.
Good for you, I guess. _________________ Mamba Made Moments Meticulously Magnificent
I evaluate players by whether they give 110%, they bring their A game, they do all the little things, they’re natural born leaders, they refuse to be denied, and they thank God after winning.
And whether they make their teammates better. Honorable mention goes to whether they’re clutch.
You guys are 2 peas in a pod. I wonder why you even enjoy sports when all you do take all the emotion and spirit out of the game and mock those who don’t fall in line with your perspectives. Bizarre _________________ Mamba Made Moments Meticulously Magnificent
Eh. When you start talking about "heart" and the like, you're dipping into the BS dump. In the end, actual production is what matters. You can argue that the metrics understate (or overstate) a player for various reasons, but "heart" doesn't provide bonus points when you miss a shot.
How about when you deliver championships over and over and over again for one franchise while doing things on the court NO shooting guard has ever done? That work for ya, bud? _________________ Mamba Made Moments Meticulously Magnificent
I evaluate players by whether they give 110%, they bring their A game, they do all the little things, they’re natural born leaders, they refuse to be denied, and they thank God after winning.
And whether they make their teammates better. Honorable mention goes to whether they’re clutch.
You guys are 2 peas in a pod. I wonder why you even enjoy sports when all you do take all the emotion and spirit out of the game and mock those who don’t fall in line with your perspectives. Bizarre
I find it bizarre when fans admire a player who tops out at giving 107% or 108%
I evaluate players by whether they give 110%, they bring their A game, they do all the little things, they’re natural born leaders, they refuse to be denied, and they thank God after winning.
And whether they make their teammates better. Honorable mention goes to whether they’re clutch.
You guys are 2 peas in a pod. I wonder why you even enjoy sports when all you do take all the emotion and spirit out of the game and mock those who don’t fall in line with your perspectives. Bizarre
I find it bizarre when fans admire a player who tops out at giving 107% or 108%
No standards anymore. 110% or nothing!
Point proven.
You don’t argue in good faith, imo.
There are aspects of greatness on the court that cannot and will not ever be measured by your precious analytics. This is a fact.
Yet, instead of speaking to this very point you chose to ridicule my appreciation of those rare players that do, in fact, “Leave it all on the court”.
Be proud of yourself all you like, but I think your act is fraudulent and clownish. _________________ Mamba Made Moments Meticulously Magnificent
Last edited by LaLaLakeShow on Tue Jan 21, 2020 4:47 pm; edited 2 times in total
Eh. When you start talking about "heart" and the like, you're dipping into the BS dump. In the end, actual production is what matters. You can argue that the metrics understate (or overstate) a player for various reasons, but "heart" doesn't provide bonus points when you miss a shot.
How about when you deliver championships over and over and over again for one franchise while doing things on the court NO shooting guard has ever done? That work for ya, bud?
Titles are part of the discussion for pretty much everyone. Without the titles, Kobe would be in the same bin as guys like Westbrook and Harden. The same is true for Jordan, in all likelihood.
Eh. When you start talking about "heart" and the like, you're dipping into the BS dump. In the end, actual production is what matters. You can argue that the metrics understate (or overstate) a player for various reasons, but "heart" doesn't provide bonus points when you miss a shot.
How about when you deliver championships over and over and over again for one franchise while doing things on the court NO shooting guard has ever done? That work for ya, bud?
Titles are part of the discussion for pretty much everyone. Without the titles, Kobe would be in the same bin as guys like Westbrook and Harden. The same is true for Jordan, in all likelihood.
Yeah, but he’s not.
Cause time and again he did come through in “The Clutch” ( a thing you apparently don’t think exists )
Kobe was transcendent for a myriad of reasons, titles being only one of them. _________________ Mamba Made Moments Meticulously Magnificent
I evaluate players by whether they give 110%, they bring their A game, they do all the little things, they’re natural born leaders, they refuse to be denied, and they thank God after winning.
And whether they make their teammates better. Honorable mention goes to whether they’re clutch.
You guys are 2 peas in a pod. I wonder why you even enjoy sports when all you do take all the emotion and spirit out of the game and mock those who don’t fall in line with your perspectives. Bizarre
I find it bizarre when fans admire a player who tops out at giving 107% or 108%
No standards anymore. 110% or nothing!
Point proven.
You don’t argue in good faith, imo.
There are aspects of greatness on the court that cannot and will not ever be measured by your precious analytics. This is a fact.
Yet, instead of speaking to this very point you chose to ridicule my appreciation of those rare players that do, in fact, “Leave it all on the court”.
Be proud of yourself all you like, but I think your act is fraudulent and clownish.
I think you're only giving 105% on this post. Up your game. Show some heart.
I evaluate players by whether they give 110%, they bring their A game, they do all the little things, they’re natural born leaders, they refuse to be denied, and they thank God after winning.
And whether they make their teammates better. Honorable mention goes to whether they’re clutch.
You guys are 2 peas in a pod. I wonder why you even enjoy sports when all you do take all the emotion and spirit out of the game and mock those who don’t fall in line with your perspectives. Bizarre
I find it bizarre when fans admire a player who tops out at giving 107% or 108%
No standards anymore. 110% or nothing!
Point proven.
You don’t argue in good faith, imo.
There are aspects of greatness on the court that cannot and will not ever be measured by your precious analytics. This is a fact.
Yet, instead of speaking to this very point you chose to ridicule my appreciation of those rare players that do, in fact, “Leave it all on the court”.
Be proud of yourself all you like, but I think your act is fraudulent and clownish.
I think you're only giving 105% on this post. Up your game. Show some heart.
Sad to count you as a fellow Lakers fan (Allegedly)
We’re done _________________ Mamba Made Moments Meticulously Magnificent
Eh. When you start talking about "heart" and the like, you're dipping into the BS dump. In the end, actual production is what matters. You can argue that the metrics understate (or overstate) a player for various reasons, but "heart" doesn't provide bonus points when you miss a shot.
How about when you deliver championships over and over and over again for one franchise while doing things on the court NO shooting guard has ever done? That work for ya, bud?
Titles are part of the discussion for pretty much everyone. Without the titles, Kobe would be in the same bin as guys like Westbrook and Harden. The same is true for Jordan, in all likelihood.
Yeah, but he’s not.
Cause time and again he did come through in “The Clutch” ( a thing you apparently don’t think exists )
Kobe was transcendent for a myriad of reasons, titles being only one of them.
I don’t think we could even agree on a definition of “clutch.” It’s a term that people apply to players they like, and vice versa. As other people have shown, Kobe took an enormous number of shots in clutch situations compared to other star players, but didn’t make a good percentage. Does this mean he wasn’t clutch? Not to me, but there isn’t much evidence to support your belief. Similar analyses have been done for other players, like Derek Jeter. If you play in enough big games, you are going to make some big plays. That doesn’t make you “clutch” is some mystical sense.
Eh. When you start talking about "heart" and the like, you're dipping into the BS dump. In the end, actual production is what matters. You can argue that the metrics understate (or overstate) a player for various reasons, but "heart" doesn't provide bonus points when you miss a shot.
How about when you deliver championships over and over and over again for one franchise while doing things on the court NO shooting guard has ever done? That work for ya, bud?
Titles are part of the discussion for pretty much everyone. Without the titles, Kobe would be in the same bin as guys like Westbrook and Harden. The same is true for Jordan, in all likelihood.
Yeah, but he’s not.
Cause time and again he did come through in “The Clutch” ( a thing you apparently don’t think exists )
Kobe was transcendent for a myriad of reasons, titles being only one of them.
I don’t think we could even agree on a definition of “clutch.” It’s a term that people apply to players they like, and vice versa. As other people have shown, Kobe took an enormous number of shots in clutch situations compared to other star players, but didn’t make a good percentage. Does this mean he wasn’t clutch? Not to me, but there isn’t much evidence to support your belief. Similar analyses have been done for other players, like Derek Jeter. If you play in enough big games, you are going to make some big plays. That doesn’t make you “clutch” is some mystical sense.
Not buying your argument in totality. This is not a binary thing _________________ Mamba Made Moments Meticulously Magnificent
Eh. When you start talking about "heart" and the like, you're dipping into the BS dump. In the end, actual production is what matters. You can argue that the metrics understate (or overstate) a player for various reasons, but "heart" doesn't provide bonus points when you miss a shot.
How about when you deliver championships over and over and over again for one franchise while doing things on the court NO shooting guard has ever done? That work for ya, bud?
Titles are part of the discussion for pretty much everyone. Without the titles, Kobe would be in the same bin as guys like Westbrook and Harden. The same is true for Jordan, in all likelihood.
Yeah, but he’s not.
Cause time and again he did come through in “The Clutch” ( a thing you apparently don’t think exists )
Kobe was transcendent for a myriad of reasons, titles being only one of them.
I don’t think we could even agree on a definition of “clutch.” It’s a term that people apply to players they like, and vice versa. As other people have shown, Kobe took an enormous number of shots in clutch situations compared to other star players, but didn’t make a good percentage. Does this mean he wasn’t clutch? Not to me, but there isn’t much evidence to support your belief. Similar analyses have been done for other players, like Derek Jeter. If you play in enough big games, you are going to make some big plays. That doesn’t make you “clutch” is some mystical sense.
Not buying your argument in totality. This is not a binary thing
Then how do we know for certain that it is true or false? _________________ Clippers are our Daddy.
Eh. When you start talking about "heart" and the like, you're dipping into the BS dump. In the end, actual production is what matters. You can argue that the metrics understate (or overstate) a player for various reasons, but "heart" doesn't provide bonus points when you miss a shot.
How about when you deliver championships over and over and over again for one franchise while doing things on the court NO shooting guard has ever done? That work for ya, bud?
Titles are part of the discussion for pretty much everyone. Without the titles, Kobe would be in the same bin as guys like Westbrook and Harden. The same is true for Jordan, in all likelihood.
Yeah, but he’s not.
Cause time and again he did come through in “The Clutch” ( a thing you apparently don’t think exists )
Kobe was transcendent for a myriad of reasons, titles being only one of them.
I don’t think we could even agree on a definition of “clutch.” It’s a term that people apply to players they like, and vice versa. As other people have shown, Kobe took an enormous number of shots in clutch situations compared to other star players, but didn’t make a good percentage. Does this mean he wasn’t clutch? Not to me, but there isn’t much evidence to support your belief. Similar analyses have been done for other players, like Derek Jeter. If you play in enough big games, you are going to make some big plays. That doesn’t make you “clutch” is some mystical sense.
Not buying your argument in totality. This is not a binary thing
Then how do we know for certain that it is true or false?
I meant it’s not binary because comparing athletes, scenarios, time on the clock, game score, coaching philosophies, league rules and trends requires more than a little bit of nuance and context.
These 2 posters think you can mathematically declare things like being clutch into black and white. I don’t think you can.
The numbers used today cannot be used to accurately critique players raised in a league where those numbers didn’t exist.
Because of the rise of analytics players bend their game to fit into what is deemed to be more efficient as it stands today.
Players in the past didn’t have that option because these theories hadn’t been utilized, therefore the Numbers themselves are not as they seem.
Using them to compare players who played with them specifically in mind and others who came before their acceptance and utilization is pointless and intrinsically unfair. _________________ Mamba Made Moments Meticulously Magnificent
When you watch these media clowns it's easy to ascertain that they are paid to say what they say, and unfortunately people nowadays believe them because they come on TV and radio every day saying it over and over versus the guys that actually played against them.
When you watch these media clowns it's easy to ascertain that they are paid to say what they say, and unfortunately people nowadays believe them because they come on TV and radio every day saying it over and over versus the guys that actually played against them.
I think it's fun to see those experts' facial expressions when things don't go their ways. You see the Celtics' diehard aka Simon's "the Kobe hater" reaction when one of his own Celtic greats chose Kobe over Bron. The more Bird said something about Kobe, Simon's reaction was limited to "really?".
You can see how the media is trying hard to steer the opinions of the players once they keep praising Kobe. It must have been painful for them to listen. Lol. _________________ Kobe's Top 5 Dunks, 81 points, MJ last gm @Staples
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