League Average Total Shooting Percentage in 1980
53.1%
League Average Total Shooting Percentage in 2020
56.4%
Magic's TS% is 61.0%
LBJ's TS% is 58.6%
Magic averaged about 8% over the league average
LBJ averaged about 2% over the league average
IF someone told him to work on the three... he would have been a better 3 point shooter as he was a superior FT shooter and he was taller than all the PGs
I don't know why you guys keep making me defend Magic... I'm still annoyed at him for his GM tenure.
(I also think he's better than MJ)
YES TO EVERYTHING...! _________________ “Always remember... Rumors are carried by haters, spread by fools, and accepted by idiots.”
Joined: 10 Apr 2001 Posts: 65135 Location: Orange County, CA
Posted: Mon Aug 03, 2020 10:08 am Post subject:
activeverb wrote:
BILBJH wrote:
People say he was playing with Hall of Famers but Kareem was old by the time he played with Magic...
Not really.
When Magic won his first ring with Kareem, Kareem was league MVP. He was 32 at that point.
For their first three rings together, Kareem played at an all-NBA, all-defensive team level.
By the last two rings, Kareem was up there in years, but even at age 39 Kareem was averaging 18 ppg. on 56% shooting. He was dragging by his final year.
But for most of Magic's career, Kareem was still playing at a high level.
Some players just know how to win. Magic was one of those
Magic was a great player. One of the best of all time.
But to be fair, he also had one of the luckiest careers. How many #1 overall picks are drafted onto a 47-win team that has a GOAT-level player and a bunch of other all-stars and Hall of Famers?
I can't think of another superstar in the modern era who was drafted onto a strong team and was surrounded by strong teammates his entire career.
Not take anything away from Magic, but it's much easier to find a way to win when you are sharing the court with Kareem, Worthy, Wilkes, McAdoo, etc., etc.
Joined: 14 Apr 2001 Posts: 144480 Location: The Gold Coast
Posted: Mon Aug 03, 2020 12:31 pm Post subject:
activeverb wrote:
defense wrote:
Some players just know how to win. Magic was one of those
Magic was a great player. One of the best of all time.
But to be fair, he also had one of the luckiest careers. How many #1 overall picks are drafted onto a 47-win team that has a GOAT-level player and a bunch of other all-stars and Hall of Famers?
I can't think of another superstar in the modern era who was drafted onto a strong team and was surrounded by strong teammates his entire career.
Not take anything away from Magic, but it's much easier to find a way to win when you are sharing the court with Kareem, Worthy, Wilkes, McAdoo, etc., etc.
Tim Duncan _________________ RIP mom. 11-21-1933 to 6-14-2023.
Joined: 19 Apr 2003 Posts: 22873 Location: La Jolla, San Diego
Posted: Mon Aug 03, 2020 10:47 pm Post subject:
I think if Magic played today, and he was asked to get 30 a night, he can do it easily. He could have done it easily in the 80's. One on one, he was a great post player with a babyhook that was money. If you double him, he picks you apart. If you foul him, he was 90% in his prime. Then he added the 3 point shot, that he would surely let fly more often in this era. Bron is the better defensive player no doubt, but on the offensive end, nobody was/is more complete than Magic in terms of running the show.
I think Lebron in that Lakers team win as much titles. I really don't see anyone guarding Lebron in the 80s. Sure they were more physical, but players were a lot slower and less athletic. There's a few who can match up his strength but most are not quick enough to keep up with him. How many assist will Lebron average if he has Kareem to throw the ball in the post to? Or Worthy running down the court?
Defensively is not even close.
But I completely understand why most pick Magic over Lebron.
Joined: 24 Dec 2007 Posts: 35973 Location: Santa Clarita, CA (Hell) ->>>>>Ithaca, NY -≥≥≥≥≥Berkeley, CA
Posted: Tue Aug 04, 2020 5:27 am Post subject:
venturalakersfan wrote:
activeverb wrote:
defense wrote:
Some players just know how to win. Magic was one of those
Magic was a great player. One of the best of all time.
But to be fair, he also had one of the luckiest careers. How many #1 overall picks are drafted onto a 47-win team that has a GOAT-level player and a bunch of other all-stars and Hall of Famers?
I can't think of another superstar in the modern era who was drafted onto a strong team and was surrounded by strong teammates his entire career.
Not take anything away from Magic, but it's much easier to find a way to win when you are sharing the court with Kareem, Worthy, Wilkes, McAdoo, etc., etc.
Tim Duncan
James Worthy _________________ Damian Lillard shatters Dwight Coward's championship dreams:
Joined: 10 Apr 2001 Posts: 65135 Location: Orange County, CA
Posted: Tue Aug 04, 2020 5:40 am Post subject:
miggz23 wrote:
I think Lebron in that Lakers team win as much titles. I really don't see anyone guarding Lebron in the 80s. Sure they were more physical, but players were a lot slower and less athletic. There's a few who can match up his strength but most are not quick enough to keep up with him. How many assist will Lebron average if he has Kareem to throw the ball in the post to? Or Worthy running down the court?
Defensively is not even close.
But I completely understand why most pick Magic over Lebron.
More.
Imagine being the only other guy that could compete athletically with MJ.
Some players just know how to win. Magic was one of those
Magic was a great player. One of the best of all time.
But to be fair, he also had one of the luckiest careers. How many #1 overall picks are drafted onto a 47-win team that has a GOAT-level player and a bunch of other all-stars and Hall of Famers?
I can't think of another superstar in the modern era who was drafted onto a strong team and was surrounded by strong teammates his entire career.
Not take anything away from Magic, but it's much easier to find a way to win when you are sharing the court with Kareem, Worthy, Wilkes, McAdoo, etc., etc.
Tim Duncan
Duncan was drafted onto a 20-win team. David Robinson did come back the next season, but the next best player on the team was Avery Johnson or Sean Elliott. In this respect, Duncan is analogous to Bird, but not Magic. _________________ Internet Argument Resolved
Joined: 14 Apr 2001 Posts: 144480 Location: The Gold Coast
Posted: Tue Aug 04, 2020 7:27 am Post subject:
miggz23 wrote:
I think Lebron in that Lakers team win as much titles. I really don't see anyone guarding Lebron in the 80s. Sure they were more physical, but players were a lot slower and less athletic. There's a few who can match up his strength but most are not quick enough to keep up with him. How many assist will Lebron average if he has Kareem to throw the ball in the post to? Or Worthy running down the court?
Defensively is not even close.
But I completely understand why most pick Magic over Lebron.
Widows tale that players were slower and less athletic then. Not at all true. _________________ RIP mom. 11-21-1933 to 6-14-2023.
Joined: 24 Dec 2007 Posts: 35973 Location: Santa Clarita, CA (Hell) ->>>>>Ithaca, NY -≥≥≥≥≥Berkeley, CA
Posted: Tue Aug 04, 2020 7:37 am Post subject:
venturalakersfan wrote:
miggz23 wrote:
I think Lebron in that Lakers team win as much titles. I really don't see anyone guarding Lebron in the 80s. Sure they were more physical, but players were a lot slower and less athletic. There's a few who can match up his strength but most are not quick enough to keep up with him. How many assist will Lebron average if he has Kareem to throw the ball in the post to? Or Worthy running down the court?
Defensively is not even close.
But I completely understand why most pick Magic over Lebron.
Widows tale that players were slower and less athletic then. Not at all true.
How athletic was Larry Bird? _________________ Damian Lillard shatters Dwight Coward's championship dreams:
I think Lebron in that Lakers team win as much titles. I really don't see anyone guarding Lebron in the 80s. Sure they were more physical, but players were a lot slower and less athletic. There's a few who can match up his strength but most are not quick enough to keep up with him. How many assist will Lebron average if he has Kareem to throw the ball in the post to? Or Worthy running down the court?
Defensively is not even close.
But I completely understand why most pick Magic over Lebron.
Widows tale that players were slower and less athletic then. Not at all true.
It probably is true, just because of the athletic progression. But that's really an era argument. If you get into era comparisons, you just wind up chasing your own tail. _________________ Internet Argument Resolved
Joined: 10 Apr 2001 Posts: 65135 Location: Orange County, CA
Posted: Tue Aug 04, 2020 8:21 am Post subject:
venturalakersfan wrote:
miggz23 wrote:
I think Lebron in that Lakers team win as much titles. I really don't see anyone guarding Lebron in the 80s. Sure they were more physical, but players were a lot slower and less athletic. There's a few who can match up his strength but most are not quick enough to keep up with him. How many assist will Lebron average if he has Kareem to throw the ball in the post to? Or Worthy running down the court?
Defensively is not even close.
But I completely understand why most pick Magic over Lebron.
Widows tale that players were slower and less athletic then. Not at all true.
Vehemently disagree. _________________ Resident Car Nut.
I think Lebron in that Lakers team win as much titles. I really don't see anyone guarding Lebron in the 80s. Sure they were more physical, but players were a lot slower and less athletic. There's a few who can match up his strength but most are not quick enough to keep up with him. How many assist will Lebron average if he has Kareem to throw the ball in the post to? Or Worthy running down the court?
Defensively is not even close.
But I completely understand why most pick Magic over Lebron.
Widows tale that players were slower and less athletic then. Not at all true.
I don't know how anyone measures the speed and athleticism of NBA players, and compares two eras separated by 40 years. That said, there is plenty of evidence to show that human speed has improved over time. I don't know why NBA players would be immune from the improvement. So, yeah, athletes in general today are probably a little faster and more athletic than athletes were 40 years ago.
Magic brought us 5 rings against very physical Celtic, Bad Boy, and other 80s teams. He has the edge over Lebron.
Magic would have had even more rings if it was not for injuries to our team (I know, part of the game) and HIV (he had a few good years in him and we finally got him a great backup in Sedale). MAGIC AND ITS NOT EVEN CLOSE!
Joined: 10 Apr 2001 Posts: 65135 Location: Orange County, CA
Posted: Tue Aug 04, 2020 9:54 am Post subject:
RI Laker wrote:
Laker4lifer4real wrote:
Magic brought us 5 rings against very physical Celtic, Bad Boy, and other 80s teams. He has the edge over Lebron.
Magic would have had even more rings if it was not for injuries to our team (I know, part of the game) and HIV (he had a few good years in him and we finally got him a great backup in Sedale). MAGIC AND ITS NOT EVEN CLOSE!
Give LeBron 2-3 other All Stars and an elite front office starting his rookie year.
I love Magic. I understand focusing on the results part. But player for player? Woof. _________________ Resident Car Nut.
If you factor in the superior training techniques and remove the outlier performance of genetic miracle Usain Bolt, the record in the 100 meters went from Ben Johnson's 9.79 to Asafa Powell's 9.74 in 30 years.
The world standard from 1998 to 2018 in the clean and jerk went from 230 kilos to 233 kilos in a heavyweight class
The high jump record hasn't even changed since 1993 and the record holder Sotomayor was breaking his own record barely changing it over two inches.
If you take out Sotomayor... like Bolt... the record hasn't moved since the late eighties.
Obviously people are getting bigger and stronger but I think some of you are blowing it way out of proportion.
What I can agree with is that they emphasize weight lifting now so you see a huge difference in weight. The height is the same, except shooting guards seem taller I'd say. Also they emphasize wingspan so you'd see a lot of emphasis on that and hand size... but if they wanted to identify those traits back then, I think they would have found them.
Is it dramatically better than the sixties? Sure, I'd agree with that... the explosion of salaries and eliminating more racist barriers brought in the talent.
But by the eighties, I'd think most teams could compete with the modern teams if they used the weight room and the same training techniques.
Kareem scored at will against the 7' 1" 275 pound Wilt... I don't think anyone other than Shaq would have disturbed him much, and I'm not even sure about that.
ETA: I looked it up and Moses and Hakeem slowed Kareem down somewhat but then again... Kareem still beat them head to head and Kareem went 18-5 against The Dream.
I really hate this new generation of rewarding losing. Participation trophies don't count. Magic won a title in high school, college and as a rookie in the NBA. Not only is lebron not close to Magic only 2 or 3 players are. This shouldn't even be a discussion. And before people start saying "Well if lebron played with Kareem and Worthy". Look, lebron stacked the deck heavily in his favor with the Heat and if it wasn't for a lucky shot by Ray Allen they would have only won 1 out of 4 championships...and that was in a strike shortened season. Stop it!
Difference here is I've been watching LeBron since he was 15/16, who was pretty much Kobe size at that age.
Nevermind the fact LBJ was a 5-star high school Wide Receiver.
Then there's the athletic difference.
It's not like LBJ had all world training prior to the NBA.
FWIW, Magic was in the same era as MJ gaining strength in the late 80s to go against the Pistons. Didn't really do that.
Quote:
Do people think Hakeem couldn't compete today?
Who in the world said that?
It's like comparing Tom Brady with Michael Vick... or maybe Elway since he won a couple rings.
Obviously Vick is the superior athlete... but does anyone think he's a better quarterback or player than Tom Brady?
LBJ is amazing... he's unprecedented in playing at such a high level for so long... probably surpassing Kareem at this point.
Players like Magic and Bird... were more skilled players. LBJ combines superior athleticism and size with very good playmaking ability but anyone who grew up watching both can see the difference in skill. I just said I thought Shaq was more dominant than Kobe, but I'd never say he's a more skilled player. And I like LBJ... I disliked him when he did the Decision press conference and talked crap about how the average person had to go back to their mundane lives, while he got to go back to his life of luxury... but then I started to enjoy him when he went back to Cleveland and got them the title, and of course now that he's a Laker.
If LBJ won us a couple titles... maybe I could start thinking about him in a different light but it would still be more of being impressed by his durability and longevity as opposed to his skill. Did Magic join together with Bird and Barkley and try to form a super team? Did Magic trade away his entire team to acquire one of his rivals? Sure he drove Westhead out... but he pretty much won with whoever he played with at the time... and I think other than Kareem, it was more that he elevated everyone around him.
Players like Magic and Bird... were more skilled players. LBJ combines superior athleticism and size with very good playmaking ability but anyone who grew up watching both can see the difference in skill.
I judge a player on what he accomplishes. It doesn't really matter to me whether those accomplishments are due to their skill or their athletic ability. One isn't it inherently better or more important than the other.
BILBJH wrote:
It's like comparing Tom Brady with Michael Vick... or maybe Elway since he won a couple rings.
Obviously Vick is the superior athlete... but does anyone think he's a better quarterback or player than Tom Brady?
The comparison falls flat for me. Brady won 6 rings, three MVPs, threw for 74,500 yards and 541 touchdowns. Elway won 2 rings, one MVP and threw for 51,500 yards, and 300 touchdowns.
Set aside the personal subjective opinions. By every tangible measure, Brady blows Elway away. Not even close. And forget about Vick.
That isn’t the case with Magic and Lebron. They both have great tangible measures, but you can argue which one is better. So I don't see that as a Brady vs. Elway or Vick situation.
I really hate this new generation of rewarding losing. Participation trophies don't count. Magic won a title in high school, college and as a rookie in the NBA. Not only is lebron not close to Magic only 2 or 3 players are. This shouldn't even be a discussion. And before people start saying "Well if lebron played with Kareem and Worthy". Look, lebron stacked the deck heavily in his favor with the Heat and if it wasn't for a lucky shot by Ray Allen they would have only won 1 out of 4 championships...and that was in a strike shortened season. Stop it!
Lebron has won three rings, so I don't really understand your "participation trophy" comment. Anyway, I think this post would have more sense 10 years ago than it does today.
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