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Robster8989
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Joined: 30 Dec 2014
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Location: San Diego
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 Posted: Thu Oct 22, 2020 5:07 pm Post subject: |
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| pjiddy wrote: | | dcarter4kobe wrote: | Unlike others, Kuz in a CP3 deal is a no go for me. Don't see the market being there for CP3. Offering OKC 50M in savings+a 1st should be enough for a guy owed 85M with no market most likely (Bucks cheap, Knicks should target VanVleet)
1. LeBron
2. AD
3. KCP
4. Caruso
5.Kuz
6. Dwight (nonbird rights)
7. Morris (non bird rights/probably can get more on market)
8. Waiters
9. THT
10.Dudley
11. Boogie
That's returning 11 players. 3 of the 5 players not returning didnt play a role in playoffs (Cook, AB, McGee). Far from "gutting" our team |
You need Kuzma to make the salaries work. The only players still under contract not included in the proposed trade are Caruso and THT (KCP and Rondo both opting out) and neither by themselves gets you to the requisite outgoing salary number. The only other option is S&Ting KCP, but because he'd be a base-year player, only half his salary would count. And then KCP would have to want to go there. And OKC would have to want him for 3 years when they're not really competing. And if he's coming at a bloated salary, it decreases his trade value. |
Agree, and the other thing about Kuz is he is due a huge pay increase after next year on his new contract. Do we want to pony up big for him with money that could interfere with adding big in FA? His contract status may decrease his value to us long term.
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dcarter4kobe
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Joined: 30 Jul 2005
Posts: 17716
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| Posted: Thu Oct 22, 2020 5:20 pm Post subject: |
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| Robster8989 wrote: | | pjiddy wrote: | | dcarter4kobe wrote: | Unlike others, Kuz in a CP3 deal is a no go for me. Don't see the market being there for CP3. Offering OKC 50M in savings+a 1st should be enough for a guy owed 85M with no market most likely (Bucks cheap, Knicks should target VanVleet)
1. LeBron
2. AD
3. KCP
4. Caruso
5.Kuz
6. Dwight (nonbird rights)
7. Morris (non bird rights/probably can get more on market)
8. Waiters
9. THT
10.Dudley
11. Boogie
That's returning 11 players. 3 of the 5 players not returning didnt play a role in playoffs (Cook, AB, McGee). Far from "gutting" our team |
You need Kuzma to make the salaries work. The only players still under contract not included in the proposed trade are Caruso and THT (KCP and Rondo both opting out) and neither by themselves gets you to the requisite outgoing salary number. The only other option is S&Ting KCP, but because he'd be a base-year player, only half his salary would count. And then KCP would have to want to go there. And OKC would have to want him for 3 years when they're not really competing. And if he's coming at a bloated salary, it decreases his trade value. |
Agree, and the other thing about Kuz is he is due a huge pay increase after next year on his new contract. Do we want to pony up big for him with money that could interfere with adding big in FA? His contract status may decrease his value to us long term. |
Deal with that when it’s time. Would still prefer to keep Kuzma over Rondo with a team already with Bron/CP3.
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dfchang813
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Joined: 19 Jun 2010
Posts: 1508
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| Posted: Thu Oct 22, 2020 5:51 pm Post subject: |
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| vasashi17+ wrote: | | dfchang813 wrote: | | ChickenStu wrote: | And I can't believe people would be sweating losing Avery Bradley if we picked up Chris Paul lol. There are plenty of viable reasons to not want the trade, even if I would probably do it. But losing Bradley is not one of them. The concern would be replacing the wing depth on the roster, since you'd presumably be losing both DG and Kuz, and I haven't even mentioned KCP yet.
Now, if we don't make the deal? Yes, Bradley would be a nice "welcome back" player to have. |
By way Eric Pincus did a great podcast linked on the top of the forums discussing why depth is overrated especially at the 1 and 2. He correctly points out that work AB, Rondo, DG, and KCP, and Caruso well as THT in the wings we may have too much depth at the guard positions. There won’t be enough minutes to go around.
I would not trade Caruso. He was one of the most important guys on this year’s championship team and is a glue guy.
If we pull off this trade and get CP3 I don’t know if we have money to bring back Rondo, KCP, Dwight, or Morris. I think we would still have the mini MLe which is about 5.8 million or so? Maybe we can use that to get Harkless to join. Rest will have to be get minimums. Rondo and KCP are gone for sure I think. I don’t know how Bird rights work. If CP3 joins our team can we still go over the cap bit stay under the hard cap by resigning our guys to a 2 yr contract??
CP3 coming here takes us out of the Giannis sweepstakes in 2021 obviously bit that wouldn’t matter. As long as he stays healthy we are winning next 2 chips. |
Assuming at minimum Green/Kuz/Cook fully guaranteed/2020 1st go out as the only contracts definitely that are on our books as of right now...
Cp3 41.4m
Bron 39.2m
AD 32.7m
AC 2.8m
THT 1.5m
ntpMLE 9.3m (hard caps us)
BAE 3.6m (hard caps us also)
5 incomplete roster spots 4.5m
= 135m in team salary and only 4m away from the apron
This is why getting that Deng cap exclusion is so important.
Completing the roster with vet mins like Melo, Korver, Jeff Green, Dudz, Troy Daniels, Mike Penberthy etc is doable as long as our total team salary is below 139m when it’s all said and done with. Of course there is some flex by not using the fullBAE/MLE or having to get off other contracts like THT and AC. Of course we can always bypass the apron limitation by using the tpMLE instead. |
Thanks for the summary . . . do you think this is enough to bring back Dwight and KCP and still have enough to get say Moe Harkless? I think Rondo is gone if we bring in CP3 cause they hate each other's guts and Rondo would see this as an insult. |
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dfchang813
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Joined: 19 Jun 2010
Posts: 1508
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| Posted: Thu Oct 22, 2020 5:55 pm Post subject: |
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| slavavov wrote: | If we trade for CP3 and somehow keep Bradley, can you imagine a bench backcourt of Bradley and Caruso? Imagine the energy and defense they would bring! Plus, both those guards are great at moving without the ball and good in transition. If Caruso becomes a consistently good 3-point shooter (he pretty much was the 2nd half of the regular season), even better!
Add two serviceable 2-way forwards in their 20s or at least early 30s through free agency who have athleticism, add two centers using the vet min (hopefully Howard is one of them) and now we can have a beastly roster.
PG: CP3, Bradley
SG: (FA), Caruso, THT
SF: LeBron, (2nd FA)
PF: AD, (2nd FA)
C: ? |
I don't think the salaries work if we don't include AB so he is gone.
And I don't think we can get Dwight for the minimum.
Losing KCP would be tough. I would love to get him back as he has had a resurgent year and now has championship experience. I think with this new confidence he would continue to be great for us.
I just don't know if it's possible.
If a team gives him a long term deal at 12-15 million per he's gone. |
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slavavov
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Posts: 8445
Location: Santa Monica
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| Posted: Thu Oct 22, 2020 6:05 pm Post subject: |
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| dfchang813 wrote: | | slavavov wrote: | If we trade for CP3 and somehow keep Bradley, can you imagine a bench backcourt of Bradley and Caruso? Imagine the energy and defense they would bring! Plus, both those guards are great at moving without the ball and good in transition. If Caruso becomes a consistently good 3-point shooter (he pretty much was the 2nd half of the regular season), even better!
Add two serviceable 2-way forwards in their 20s or at least early 30s through free agency who have athleticism, add two centers using the vet min (hopefully Howard is one of them) and now we can have a beastly roster.
PG: CP3, Bradley
SG: (FA), Caruso, THT
SF: LeBron, (2nd FA)
PF: AD, (2nd FA)
C: ? |
I don't think the salaries work if we don't include AB so he is gone.
And I don't think we can get Dwight for the minimum.
Losing KCP would be tough. I would love to get him back as he has had a resurgent year and now has championship experience. I think with this new confidence he would continue to be great for us.
I just don't know if it's possible.
If a team gives him a long term deal at 12-15 million per he's gone. |
If we lose both Bradley and KCP in a CP3 trade, how do you propose we replace them with one or two quality role players given our limited resources?
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LakerDYnasty72
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Joined: 18 Jul 2006
Posts: 4582
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| Posted: Thu Oct 22, 2020 6:08 pm Post subject: |
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I haven't posted in this thread because I didn't think the rumors were true. CP is a great player, and would be a great addition, but the chemistry between Rondo, AD & Lebron is special. How much better does it get than a championship?
I'm going to keep harping on the word chemistry because we already have it; with the resources to improve it; both through additions through contract offers, and the internal development of KCP, Caruso, and Kuzma.
Before the championship there was early March before the pandemic shut things down. We beat those other guys across the hall & Milwaukee back to back. We have quantity and quality right now, with, again, the chance to upgrade a championship team.
Be careful changing too much too fast Rob. |
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dfchang813
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Joined: 19 Jun 2010
Posts: 1508
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| Posted: Thu Oct 22, 2020 6:12 pm Post subject: |
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| slavavov wrote: | | dfchang813 wrote: | | slavavov wrote: | If we trade for CP3 and somehow keep Bradley, can you imagine a bench backcourt of Bradley and Caruso? Imagine the energy and defense they would bring! Plus, both those guards are great at moving without the ball and good in transition. If Caruso becomes a consistently good 3-point shooter (he pretty much was the 2nd half of the regular season), even better!
Add two serviceable 2-way forwards in their 20s or at least early 30s through free agency who have athleticism, add two centers using the vet min (hopefully Howard is one of them) and now we can have a beastly roster.
PG: CP3, Bradley
SG: (FA), Caruso, THT
SF: LeBron, (2nd FA)
PF: AD, (2nd FA)
C: ? |
I don't think the salaries work if we don't include AB so he is gone.
And I don't think we can get Dwight for the minimum.
Losing KCP would be tough. I would love to get him back as he has had a resurgent year and now has championship experience. I think with this new confidence he would continue to be great for us.
I just don't know if it's possible.
If a team gives him a long term deal at 12-15 million per he's gone. |
If we lose both Bradley and KCP in a CP3 trade, how do you propose we replace them with one or two quality role players given our limited resources? |
Well CP3 will replace AB and I think we still have the ntpMLE and BAE to play with to replace DG, Kuzma, and GULP KCP. I think we can get Dwight back for the BAE and then try to bring in Moe Harkless to replace DG. If we can't get KCP back we are going to be replacing pretty strong rotation players with vet minimum guys.
So I don't know.
But if healthy, you are getting a Hall of Fame PG who is coming off a 2nd Team All NBA selection where he played basically the entire season and the playoffs.
So you gotta give up something to get something.
I would feel a whole lot better about the CP3 trade if we could somehow get KCP back. We do have his bird rights. I just don't know if it's possible salary wise. |
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dfchang813
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Joined: 19 Jun 2010
Posts: 1508
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| Posted: Thu Oct 22, 2020 6:18 pm Post subject: |
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| LakerDYnasty72 wrote: | I haven't posted in this thread because I didn't think the rumors were true. CP is a great player, and would be a great addition, but the chemistry between Rondo, AD & Lebron is special. How much better does it get than a championship?
I'm going to keep harping on the word chemistry because we already have it; with the resources to improve it; both through additions through contract offers, and the internal development of KCP, Caruso, and Kuzma.
Before the championship there was early March before the pandemic shut things down. We beat those other guys across the hall & Milwaukee back to back. We have quantity and quality right now, with, again, the chance to upgrade a championship team.
Be careful changing too much too fast Rob. |
I think this is a very legit point of view and one can argue we should simply use our resources to bring as many people back as we can and upgrade a piece or two and then see what an extra year of Vogel and continuity gives us. We basically raped the league this year.
The problem is other teams will be improving and the GSW will be resurgent and very good depending on how their stars age and bounce back from injury. Also there is always a suspicion if our players happened to play really well because of the bubble and whether winning a championship may blunt their drive or whether they fall back to Earth.
The chance to add someone of CP3's stature is very rare and he is one of the rare superstars who would literally fit perfectly with Lebron and AD?
It's a tough call to be sure and there are too many moving parts.
If we can keep Dwight and KCP while adding CP3 I think it's a no brainer and we will threepeat if everyone stays relatively healthy.
If we can't keep KCP then it's going to be tough sledding. Losing KCP, DG, AND Kuzma will significantly hurt our depth and I don't know if we have enough with the MLE and BAE to make up for this.
But a core of CP3, Lebron, and AD could All-stars out of rotation players, and rotation players out of vet minimum guys.
It's hard to say... |
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Laker_Dynasty_01
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Joined: 06 Jun 2001
Posts: 1703
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| Posted: Thu Oct 22, 2020 9:28 pm Post subject: |
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CP3 is a horrible off-ball player, during his time with the Rockets he had to be staggered with Harden, and averaged 0.81 Field Goals per game off of assists during his 116 regular season games (0.84 in playoffs). He can't fill the lanes on a break, and LeBron is a better outlet passer for AD. He is also a very poor option as a spot up shooter, he won't pull up unless the pass is perfect. Not an easy target for LeBron to hit amidst collapsing defenses.
If adding CP3 costs more than two defensive guards (AB, KCP, DG, AC), hard pass. And it likely would, given that two players in many possible deals have the ability and inclination to opt out. The trade would lead to the departure of Rondo, and being limited to the tpMLE instead of the full, in addition to the loss of any remaining assets that could be used at the trade deadline.
I expect Avery and McGee to move on regardless. Split the MLE on Dwight and Rondo, try to keep Waiters, and pray for someone like Jeff Green to replace Morris, if he gets a better deal than is possible here. Trading down for a pg like Quickley or drafting Tre Jones isn't a bad idea either, if we have any exception money left to sign 2nd rounders. |
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RI Laker
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Posts: 7191
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| Posted: Fri Oct 23, 2020 3:10 am Post subject: |
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| Just say no. |
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waterman40
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Posts: 6292
Location: Central Coast
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| Posted: Fri Oct 23, 2020 7:06 am Post subject: |
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Getting CP3 is our big acquisition, so the 2021 plan is off, but I believe still open for 2022. CP3 is going to get dealt, the question is which deal helps OKC rebuild, also with the idea that they are not a destination for big free agents - they get who they get through trades and the draft. As was earlier stated by Chickenstu, the most likely landing spots are the Lakers, Bucks, Knicks, and Miami. It looks like really the best packages would be ours and the Knicks. If OKC wants the extra savings, then the Knicks have more to offer. With ours, they get quite a bit of savings, a good year to look at Kuzma, the leadership of Green, and maybe hold on to or trade the other pieces in the deal.
Other questions:
Can Paul co-exist with Rondo, or is losing Rondo a deal beaker? My thought is that Paul will do whatever it takes to smooth it over with Rondo, especially since LBJ is there, friends with both of them. In my opinion if Rondo doesn't want to play with Paul and either LBJ or Davis object to losing Rondo, the deal is OFF.
If the Lakers ship out 5-6 players, even if they are all role players, can the team re-bond? To me, it really depends on which of the other Lakers with player options decide to do. Keeping Rondo is important, keeping Dwight is important. Keeping KCP may be hard to do either way, I think he is going to want $12 million a year, and that may blow any chance in the 2021 or 2022 free agency chase.
Who do we get to replace all the bodies going out in a CP3 deal? You are going to need some talent coming back, and unless you are getting Grant or Galanari to take the MLE (which might also mean no Rondo or Howard), you may have a big gap in losing Kuzma. The Lakers have to hope some vets who want to ring chase will come here on cheap one year deals to get a ring.
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venturalakersfan
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Joined: 14 Apr 2001
Posts: 144539
Location: The Gold Coast
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| Posted: Fri Oct 23, 2020 7:29 am Post subject: |
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| LakerDYnasty72 wrote: | I haven't posted in this thread because I didn't think the rumors were true. CP is a great player, and would be a great addition, but the chemistry between Rondo, AD & Lebron is special. How much better does it get than a championship?
I'm going to keep harping on the word chemistry because we already have it; with the resources to improve it; both through additions through contract offers, and the internal development of KCP, Caruso, and Kuzma.
Before the championship there was early March before the pandemic shut things down. We beat those other guys across the hall & Milwaukee back to back. We have quantity and quality right now, with, again, the chance to upgrade a championship team.
Be careful changing too much too fast Rob. |
But the league will be changing. The Clippers will make moves, Denver is looking at making moves and more importantly, the Warriors will be back. You are correct in that Rob could go too far but standing pat isn’t an option. Guys won’t have a 4 month mid season break and travel will be re-introduced. Next season will be more taxing than this past season was.
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governator
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| Posted: Fri Oct 23, 2020 8:06 am Post subject: |
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| Y’all think CP3 can play all-NBA level for 2 more seasons? Playoff no doubt for me |
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Lonzo-Lite
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| Posted: Fri Oct 23, 2020 8:06 am Post subject: |
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Pincus on a potential CP3-Lakers trade.
https://bit.ly/3dJTl8I
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pjiddy
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| Posted: Fri Oct 23, 2020 9:14 am Post subject: |
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| governator wrote: | | Y’all think CP3 can play all-NBA level for 2 more seasons? Playoff no doubt for me |
As i posted earlier, his game hasn’t relied on athleticism in over a decade. He doesn’t push the pace as well as Rondo, but his shooting and half-court play unlock far more in terms of offensive potential. Still one of the best pg defenders in the NBA and actually holds his own against scoring wings. The dude just led what was unanimously pegged as a lottery team into the playoffs. I think two more seasons of elite play is totally reasonable. Him running the PnR with AD? Oh baby. |
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CervantesRises
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| Posted: Fri Oct 23, 2020 9:57 am Post subject: |
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| pjiddy wrote: | | governator wrote: | | Y’all think CP3 can play all-NBA level for 2 more seasons? Playoff no doubt for me |
As i posted earlier, his game hasn’t relied on athleticism in over a decade. He doesn’t push the pace as well as Rondo, but his shooting and half-court play unlock far more in terms of offensive potential. Still one of the best pg defenders in the NBA and actually holds his own against scoring wings. The dude just led what was unanimously pegged as a lottery team into the playoffs. I think two more seasons of elite play is totally reasonable. Him running the PnR with AD? Oh baby. |
I hear you except for the 2 years of elite play.
Elite play #1 requires him to be ball dominant and #2 requires him to be healthy.
In our system he goes from #1 option to #3 option which means unless you're willing to take the ball out of Bron's hands, his production will be a fraction of what he's accustomed to. He averages almost 14 shots per game as the lead option ball dominant guard. No way he averages more than 10 with us. He also averages about 5 FT per game. No way he gets that with us so scoring and assists will drop. He goes from 20 and 8 to likely 14 and 5 at best with us. He's also not a reliable 3 pt threat but is above average.
The strength would be him running the second unit for like 18 minutes a game so some more shot attempts and assists could be had there with AD having the most minutes on the team.
As far as GPs...last year was his most games played wince 2015-2016...and that's likely because of the shortened season and the break. That wont be happening again.
So the likelihood of him playing 60 RS games is real.
https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/p/paulch01.html
Couple that with his contract and how much we'd have to give up and it becomes a net loss for us statistically.
In Kuz, DG, JM, KCP, #28 you have a net loss with the cap and a net loss with production...in DG and Kuz alone you're giving up 20 points, floor spacing, and roster versatility for an aging health question mark who will give you 14 and reduce floor spacing, and force us to lose functional defensive length. Throw in KCP and the net loss skyrockets to 29 points, serious perimeter length, and floor spacing.
This completely changes the complexion of a championship team akin to benching a player that's on fire.
MLE is different...trade cant be entertained if winning is a priority while Bron is still playing this way imho.
Or strength was our defensive length and versatility...we give that up and we waste at least a year of Bron.
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lakersboy
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| Posted: Fri Oct 23, 2020 10:43 am Post subject: |
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Blake Griffin / Deandre Jordan
James Harden
That's just who we know about that there was no love lost between them from past teams. His friends ride banana boats but don't play on his team for some reason. Why?
Do I want him bringing that stand offish chemistry to the Lakers locker room?
No. |
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pjiddy
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| Posted: Fri Oct 23, 2020 11:10 am Post subject: |
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| CervantesRises wrote: | | pjiddy wrote: | | governator wrote: | | Y’all think CP3 can play all-NBA level for 2 more seasons? Playoff no doubt for me |
As i posted earlier, his game hasn’t relied on athleticism in over a decade. He doesn’t push the pace as well as Rondo, but his shooting and half-court play unlock far more in terms of offensive potential. Still one of the best pg defenders in the NBA and actually holds his own against scoring wings. The dude just led what was unanimously pegged as a lottery team into the playoffs. I think two more seasons of elite play is totally reasonable. Him running the PnR with AD? Oh baby. |
I hear you except for the 2 years of elite play.
Elite play #1 requires him to be ball dominant and #2 requires him to be healthy.
In our system he goes from #1 option to #3 option which means unless you're willing to take the ball out of Bron's hands, his production will be a fraction of what he's accustomed to. He averages almost 14 shots per game as the lead option ball dominant guard. No way he averages more than 10 with us. He also averages about 5 FT per game. No way he gets that with us so scoring and assists will drop. He goes from 20 and 8 to likely 14 and 5 at best with us. He's also not a reliable 3 pt threat but is above average.
The strength would be him running the second unit for like 18 minutes a game so some more shot attempts and assists could be had there with AD having the most minutes on the team.
As far as GPs...last year was his most games played wince 2015-2016...and that's likely because of the shortened season and the break. That wont be happening again.
So the likelihood of him playing 60 RS games is real.
https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/p/paulch01.html
Couple that with his contract and how much we'd have to give up and it becomes a net loss for us statistically.
In Kuz, DG, JM, KCP, #28 you have a net loss with the cap and a net loss with production...in DG and Kuz alone you're giving up 20 points, floor spacing, and roster versatility for an aging health question mark who will give you 14 and reduce floor spacing, and force us to lose functional defensive length. Throw in KCP and the net loss skyrockets to 29 points, serious perimeter length, and floor spacing.
This completely changes the complexion of a championship team akin to benching a player that's on fire.
MLE is different...trade cant be entertained if winning is a priority while Bron is still playing this way imho.
Or strength was our defensive length and versatility...we give that up and we waste at least a year of Bron. |
Don't know why you're factoring KCP when he's not part of the reported trade. He's in a second, far less likely version. Resigning him is not impacted by a CP3 trade (if anything it incentivizes Lakers to resign him).
CP3 averaged more than 17 ppg and that doesn't factor what he generates with assists.
Kuz and DG were below average offensively with the looks and open shots they got. Defensively they were both good. But I'm not sure their production isn't easily replaceable (Harkless for one). CP3 probably generates more gravity off-ball than either of them.
CP3 played very well with an even bigger ballhog than Lebron in Harden. They just didn't get along personality-wise (not big surprise as Harden hasn't gotten along with anyone).
All in all, we're talking about two rotation guys (the two guys that frustrated Laker fans the most with erratic play) from the playoffs for CP3. This is a nobrainer to me. |
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Lonzo-Lite
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| Posted: Fri Oct 23, 2020 11:27 am Post subject: |
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Highlights of Pincus talking about Lakers' off-season and potential CP3 trade: https://bit.ly/3dJTl8I
RE: Lakers Salary
| Quote: | | Teams like Lakers might not be able to spend the full MLE ($10M) they might not have access to it because they may use their money to pay KCP or Rondo to stay. |
| Quote: | | Davis will probably sign a 3-year deal with opt-out after year 2 to get his 10 year NBA service. His new contract will start at $33M. |
| Quote: | | Avery & Javale contracts are worth $4M-$5M, but they can lose money by opting out and only get the minimum $2.6M if there is no market for them. |
| Quote: | | KCP has full bird rights with Lakers. His market is about the MLE $10M or close to $12M or more from a team with cap room like Hawks, Knicks, Pistons, Hornets. |
| Quote: | | Rondo has early bird rights so Lakers don't have to dip into their exceptions. His option is $2.7M so it makes sense to opt out because he can get as high as $4M-$5M or worse case still get a minimum $2.6M anywhere. |
| Quote: | | Challenge is flexibility with Lakers is tied up in re-signing both KCP & Rondo. Depending on how much they get could limit the Lakers from spending full MLE, which can end up being just $6M instead of the full $10M. |
| Quote: | | One way for more flexibiltiy is if Avery & Javale opted out which would save the Lakers $10M, but they are likely opting in. |
RE: Lakers and Chris Paul
| Quote: | | Lakers understood how influential Rondo was being a 2nd playmaker during the Playoffs. One of the biggest weakness in LeBron's past teams was when he sits, his team faltered with no 2nd playmaker. |
| Quote: | | Now imagine if Lakers had CP3 who is way more consistent being that other playmaker and who is a legitimate 3rd scorer, who is also a shooting specialist and historically elite defender who will even be better now that he doesn't have to carry the load with LeBron, and vice-versa LeBron wouldn't have to do too much with CP3. |
| Quote: | | CP3 from a health perspective, speaking with him this season, he says he's in the best shape he's ever been in. He played almost the full season, only missed 2 regular season games (and the 2 games he missed was when Kobe passed and the last game of the regular season). He played every game in the Playoffs. He's changed his diet (vegan), he's lost weight and kept it down to take care of his knees. CP3 of today is physically different from the CP3 of the past that gets hurt. |
| Quote: | Trading for CP3 would involve Lakers trading a number of pieces, but they don't necessarily take away the Laker's depth. Three of those players that may be traded are Avery, Javale, Cook:
- Avery didn't play in the bubble.
- Javale was not playable for most of the Playoffs.
- Cook doesn't get minutes at all. |
| Quote: | | Lakers can replace depth, for example Tristan Thompson & Nerlens Noel are Klutch clients and could be looked at as upgrades to replace Javale if he gets traded. Boogie Cousins may even be brought back for the minimum. |
| Quote: | | Positionally, Lakers have too many guards with not enough playing time. KCP, Avery, Rondo, Caruso, Green, Cook, Waiters, Smith, THT - where are all the mins? There's not much room for them to play meaningful mins. |
| Quote: | If Lakers want to trade for CP3:
- Avery & Javale would need to opt in. If they opt out, it would be more complicated to work sign and trade with both.
- Cook who isn't getting mins.
- Kuzma who can be replaced by maybe Carmelo off the bench.
- Green who can be replaced by someone like Harkless.
- 28th Pick.
Lakers main guard rotations would be CP3 & KCP, then Rondo & Caruso off the bench. |
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CervantesRises
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| Posted: Fri Oct 23, 2020 11:47 am Post subject: |
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| pjiddy wrote: | | CervantesRises wrote: | | pjiddy wrote: | | governator wrote: | | Y’all think CP3 can play all-NBA level for 2 more seasons? Playoff no doubt for me |
As i posted earlier, his game hasn’t relied on athleticism in over a decade. He doesn’t push the pace as well as Rondo, but his shooting and half-court play unlock far more in terms of offensive potential. Still one of the best pg defenders in the NBA and actually holds his own against scoring wings. The dude just led what was unanimously pegged as a lottery team into the playoffs. I think two more seasons of elite play is totally reasonable. Him running the PnR with AD? Oh baby. |
I hear you except for the 2 years of elite play.
Elite play #1 requires him to be ball dominant and #2 requires him to be healthy.
In our system he goes from #1 option to #3 option which means unless you're willing to take the ball out of Bron's hands, his production will be a fraction of what he's accustomed to. He averages almost 14 shots per game as the lead option ball dominant guard. No way he averages more than 10 with us. He also averages about 5 FT per game. No way he gets that with us so scoring and assists will drop. He goes from 20 and 8 to likely 14 and 5 at best with us. He's also not a reliable 3 pt threat but is above average.
The strength would be him running the second unit for like 18 minutes a game so some more shot attempts and assists could be had there with AD having the most minutes on the team.
As far as GPs...last year was his most games played wince 2015-2016...and that's likely because of the shortened season and the break. That wont be happening again.
So the likelihood of him playing 60 RS games is real.
https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/p/paulch01.html
Couple that with his contract and how much we'd have to give up and it becomes a net loss for us statistically.
In Kuz, DG, JM, KCP, #28 you have a net loss with the cap and a net loss with production...in DG and Kuz alone you're giving up 20 points, floor spacing, and roster versatility for an aging health question mark who will give you 14 and reduce floor spacing, and force us to lose functional defensive length. Throw in KCP and the net loss skyrockets to 29 points, serious perimeter length, and floor spacing.
This completely changes the complexion of a championship team akin to benching a player that's on fire.
MLE is different...trade cant be entertained if winning is a priority while Bron is still playing this way imho.
Or strength was our defensive length and versatility...we give that up and we waste at least a year of Bron. |
Don't know why you're factoring KCP when he's not part of the reported trade. He's in a second, far less likely version. Resigning him is not impacted by a CP3 trade (if anything it incentivizes Lakers to resign him).
CP3 averaged more than 17 ppg and that doesn't factor what he generates with assists.
Kuz and DG were below average offensively with the looks and open shots they got. Defensively they were both good. But I'm not sure their production isn't easily replaceable (Harkless for one). CP3 probably generates more gravity off-ball than either of them.
CP3 played very well with an even bigger ballhog than Lebron in Harden. They just didn't get along personality-wise (not big surprise as Harden hasn't gotten along with anyone).
All in all, we're talking about two rotation guys (the two guys that frustrated Laker fans the most with erratic play) from the playoffs for CP3. This is a nobrainer to me. |
You're not talking about only 2 rotational guys though.
First off...you can't accuse LeBron James, who led the league in assists as a ball hog...come on dawg. Dude just led us to a chip playing the game the right way.
Secondly, Kuz averaged 12 ppg and DG 8 ppg as complementary role players on a championship team. Neither had the finals we had hoped for. DG is old. Kuz is a block head that makes many fans want to throw a remote at the TV but how you come to the conclusion that they are below average players is not stated. So you're throwing something at the wall to see what sticks...this doesn't stick. Kuz outplayed is contract. DG didn't outplay his contract but his +/- shows that he's typically a net positive and why he's been a member of 4 championships. If DG is below average then...but I'll concede he was below his averages and did not live up to his contract costs.
I separated us retaining KCP vs losing KCP and in both situations there is a net loss in production and cap flexibility. If we keep KCP then we have to give up AB or AC and personally I don't want to part with either, but I'd be willing to see AB go if it meant keeping KCP who should be our #2 priority resign this off-season. Damn, what a difference a year makes.
Admit that you're talking about 5 players and assets being sent out for 1 player with a contract that severely inhibits retention of current FA assets.
Bron will come in at 39 Million this year. AD will come in at around 32 to 35 Million depending upon the deal. That's 71 to 74 Million for a cap anticipated to be 109.
Now you want to bring in CP3 at 41 Million for this year and 44 Million for next year.
You bring in CP3 and we are automatically over the anticipated cap for 3 players, which means that all 12 players we sign or retain will take us well into the luxury tax for 2 seasons and severely limit our ability to sign complementary quality depth.
CP3 reverts back to his typical 60 game seasons or worse and you just killed your season.
The advantage of depth isn't just versatility, it's the ability to withstand injuries to the team as we saw with Kuz early on and AB opting out in the bubble.
It also gives us line up versatility to go full on transformers mode and negate any strength the opposing teams may think they have.
Now you give them another year together and you get to see growth due to continuity. Kuz in a contract year does he shoot the 3 more consistently. AC does he find a corner 3. KCP, clearly playing the most confident ball of his career, what does he look like for us. Rondo and Howard and maybe even Morris, how do they perform knowing their roles and the schemes.
The assumption that the only way to get better is to add an over priced player past his prime is absurd when statistically and financially his acquisition is a net negative for us.
We get CP3...great who do we lose?
DG - Proven Champion.
Kuz - Cost controlled contract.
AB - Proven defender.
JM - Replaceable, not a big deal.
28 - Developmental Youth and Cost Controlled contract.
Then you lose Rondo definitely. Nice way to give one of your own the finger. Does this piss off AD? Why take that risk?
Now explain to me how we resign KCP as well...accounting trick? We resign him and AD before executing the trade. Great now Jeannie is paying $ for $ lux tax to fill out the roster, nope she's paying a lot more than that because we decided to gut a championship team for someone who's never won (bleep).
Acquiring CP3 the Lakers lose at least 6 players and then potentially lose KCP and Dwight.
Morris...definitely a goner.
So that's 7 championship role players gone in a terrible domino effect at least.
All for CP3's knees?
Have you seen the list of top 40 FAs? We'd have to sign 7 or 8 of them not including AD and KCP if we were able to.
That's insane. No player save for LeBron, AD, Giannis are worth losing 7 to 8 guys for. CP3 for damn sure ain't worth that.
You're seeing a name and thinking this is 2012 to 2016. It's not.
We just won the chip without CP3 with a team of guys playing together for the first time, which proves we don't need him to get better. We just need to bring back everyone we can and fill in the gaps.
Improvement will come with continuity...like it or not, that is more than possible...it's probable.
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venturalakersfan
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| Posted: Fri Oct 23, 2020 11:56 am Post subject: |
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| CervantesRises wrote: | | pjiddy wrote: | | governator wrote: | | Y’all think CP3 can play all-NBA level for 2 more seasons? Playoff no doubt for me |
As i posted earlier, his game hasn’t relied on athleticism in over a decade. He doesn’t push the pace as well as Rondo, but his shooting and half-court play unlock far more in terms of offensive potential. Still one of the best pg defenders in the NBA and actually holds his own against scoring wings. The dude just led what was unanimously pegged as a lottery team into the playoffs. I think two more seasons of elite play is totally reasonable. Him running the PnR with AD? Oh baby. |
I hear you except for the 2 years of elite play.
Elite play #1 requires him to be ball dominant and #2 requires him to be healthy.
In our system he goes from #1 option to #3 option which means unless you're willing to take the ball out of Bron's hands, his production will be a fraction of what he's accustomed to. He averages almost 14 shots per game as the lead option ball dominant guard. No way he averages more than 10 with us. He also averages about 5 FT per game. No way he gets that with us so scoring and assists will drop. He goes from 20 and 8 to likely 14 and 5 at best with us. He's also not a reliable 3 pt threat but is above average.
The strength would be him running the second unit for like 18 minutes a game so some more shot attempts and assists could be had there with AD having the most minutes on the team.
. |
You would take the ball out of Lebron’s hands and use him as a secondary initiator. That would really open up our offense.
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CervantesRises
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| Posted: Fri Oct 23, 2020 11:59 am Post subject: |
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Eric has really created some buzz around a never gonna happen pipe dream.
Didn't address how a CP3 acquisition impacts Dwight or Morris. Just because they aren't in a trade scenario doesn't me that acquiring CP3 wouldn't cost us those 2 key players.
Nerlens for Dwight?
Boogie for Morris?
Also didn't discuss the severe lux tax hit we'd have to take to get it done.
Glad he's pushing this and not Rob.
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32
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| Posted: Fri Oct 23, 2020 12:02 pm Post subject: |
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Pelinka was on the Woj podcast today and he said he's looking for a young player to pair with AD this year or next year. That pretty much eliminates CP3.
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CervantesRises
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| Posted: Fri Oct 23, 2020 12:03 pm Post subject: |
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| venturalakersfan wrote: | | CervantesRises wrote: | | pjiddy wrote: | | governator wrote: | | Y’all think CP3 can play all-NBA level for 2 more seasons? Playoff no doubt for me |
As i posted earlier, his game hasn’t relied on athleticism in over a decade. He doesn’t push the pace as well as Rondo, but his shooting and half-court play unlock far more in terms of offensive potential. Still one of the best pg defenders in the NBA and actually holds his own against scoring wings. The dude just led what was unanimously pegged as a lottery team into the playoffs. I think two more seasons of elite play is totally reasonable. Him running the PnR with AD? Oh baby. |
I hear you except for the 2 years of elite play.
Elite play #1 requires him to be ball dominant and #2 requires him to be healthy.
In our system he goes from #1 option to #3 option which means unless you're willing to take the ball out of Bron's hands, his production will be a fraction of what he's accustomed to. He averages almost 14 shots per game as the lead option ball dominant guard. No way he averages more than 10 with us. He also averages about 5 FT per game. No way he gets that with us so scoring and assists will drop. He goes from 20 and 8 to likely 14 and 5 at best with us. He's also not a reliable 3 pt threat but is above average.
The strength would be him running the second unit for like 18 minutes a game so some more shot attempts and assists could be had there with AD having the most minutes on the team.
. |
You would take the ball out of Lebron’s hands and use him as a secondary initiator. That would really open up our offense. |
#1 Stop using 'Our'
#2 That is the dumbest thing anyone could do. You want to take the ball out of LeBron James hands...the guy with arguably the best decision making in the game. You want to make the best playmaker of his generation a secondary playmaker.
You have the most posts and at least 99.9% of them are horrible takes.
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CervantesRises
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| Posted: Fri Oct 23, 2020 12:03 pm Post subject: |
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| 32 wrote: | | Pelinka was on the Woj podcast today and he said he's looking for a young player to pair with AD this year or next year. That pretty much eliminates CP3. |
Rob gets it.
Olidipo?
Luka?
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