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vasashi17+
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Joined: 13 Dec 2019
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 Posted: Tue Aug 03, 2021 6:01 pm Post subject: |
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| Laker's Fan wrote: | | vasashi17+ wrote: | | Laker's Fan wrote: | | I believe in the last CBA they changed it so the tax is calculated based on the salary paid to players instead of where you sit at the end of the season. So for example if you had a $10m player who you traded half way through the season, they would still count for $5m in your tax calculation. Can't just cut and run. By the same token, if you trade for more salary at the deadline, you don't take the full year's hit. |
I don’t know about that LF. I believe it is the contracts you gave retained in the last day of the season. So I believe VLF is correct in this case.
I believe the time of proration in terms to the tax only applies to the non/partial guaranteed deals that fully guarantee after Jan 10.
For example, McK will not count as a tax hit since he was waived before the season started. If he played for a week in the beginning of the season, before he was waived that prorated amount will be calculated in the tax. But I believe that’s the only situation proration applies towards the tax. |
Yeah, in second look I think you might be right Vas. I know that was under discussion in the last CBA (counting the actual salary paid for the tax calculation) and thought it had made its way in. But I’m probably remembering that wrong. |
I think I read about something on that too. I mean, that would make a lot more sense imho. You get taxed for the services you employed. Either way, the point is that the Lakers are projected to spend the most they ever have in taxes. But if you look at other big market teams and what they spend/have spent...uh there’s no comparison really.
As for AC counting as 40m with salary and associated taxes...that’s conflated a bit.
With McK on the roster our team salary was 155.4m with tax hit of about 42m.
If you replace AC with McK, team salary now becomes 162m with a tax hit of about 64m. So we’re paying 22m more in taxes and combined with his projected salary (8.5m), it’s more of a 30m total hit in retaining AC.
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dcarter4kobe
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Joined: 30 Jul 2005
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| Posted: Tue Aug 03, 2021 6:02 pm Post subject: |
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This team went years without paying the lux tax once the new CBA kicked in with harsher lux tax penalties.
It's about time the big market Lakers arrive to the modern NBA with other big market teams (Nets, Warriors etc) and still arent even close to those big market teams.
A 200M payroll might seem like a lot, but when you account for inflation in the NBA with higher caps, salaries, lux tax etc, it's not
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dcarter4kobe
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Joined: 30 Jul 2005
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| Posted: Tue Aug 03, 2021 6:07 pm Post subject: |
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And it's not fair to say "Caruso would have cost the Lakers 40M".
You can play that game with anybody on the payroll, most notably Luol Deng
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32
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Joined: 04 Nov 2009
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| Posted: Tue Aug 03, 2021 6:10 pm Post subject: |
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I think the pandemic has hit the Lakers financially. This article from Forbes came out in March of last year.
The Coronavirus Pandemic Could Cost NBA Nearly $690 Million In Ticket Revenue
| Quote: | | Unsurprisingly, it’s the Los Angeles Lakers, who could lose approximately $82.1 million for their ten remaining regular-season games, with an average ticket cost being around $432. |
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ThePageDude
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Joined: 25 Jul 2002
Posts: 2625
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| Posted: Tue Aug 03, 2021 6:14 pm Post subject: |
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| jonnybravo wrote: | | ThePageDude wrote: | | nomoreshaq wrote: | | so, how much more would that the tax bill have been with caruso making 10 a year? |
Roughly an additional 4.5 * 3.25 + 4.5 * 3.75 = $31.5 million |
And that's on top of his 9 million right?
So 40 million total. Jesus Christ. |
Correct.
And using the correct figure of $8.3 million it's $30.7 million on top of $8.3 million for a total of $39 million. |
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wolfpaclaker
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Joined: 29 May 2002
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| Posted: Tue Aug 03, 2021 6:15 pm Post subject: |
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Thank you Jeanie and Lakers.
It’s a pleasure to be a fan of a team like this.
We may not win the title but I see a franchise that gets it. Every year putting the team in position to win a ring. This is the Laker way.
At some point James will decline and it won’t matter anymore. Then we will need to get a new plan. Until then, happy we are doing this. I’m not expecting 18, but I’m definitely hoping we will be in position realistically to attain that. |
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vasashi17+
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leor_77
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Joined: 23 Mar 2012
Posts: 21920
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| Posted: Tue Aug 03, 2021 6:33 pm Post subject: |
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| That's nothing - besides the revenue / income they generate, the Lakers, as an asset, probably appreciates in value by $400-500 mil per year. |
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samnizam
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Joined: 25 Oct 2008
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| Posted: Tue Aug 03, 2021 6:35 pm Post subject: |
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| leor_77 wrote: | | That's nothing - besides the revenue / income they generate, the Lakers, as an asset, probably appreciates in value by $400-500 mil per year. |
That is nothing..easy to say when it’s not your money… Jennie proved she is not a cheap owner. |
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32
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Joined: 04 Nov 2009
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| Posted: Tue Aug 03, 2021 6:43 pm Post subject: |
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Jeanie is actually a very smart woman. She attended college at the University of Southern California (USC), where she majored in business and graduated with honors.
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CamReddish
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Joined: 23 Jun 2015
Posts: 8049
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| Posted: Tue Aug 03, 2021 6:47 pm Post subject: |
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| wolfpaclaker wrote: | Thank you Jeanie and Lakers.
It’s a pleasure to be a fan of a team like this.
We may not win the title but I see a franchise that gets it. Every year putting the team in position to win a ring. This is the Laker way.
At some point James will decline and it won’t matter anymore. Then we will need to get a new plan. Until then, happy we are doing this. I’m not expecting 18, but I’m definitely hoping we will be in position realistically to attain that. |
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CamReddish
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Joined: 23 Jun 2015
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| Posted: Tue Aug 03, 2021 6:48 pm Post subject: |
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| 32 wrote: | | Jeanie is actually a very smart woman. She attended college at the University of Southern California (USC), where she majored in business and graduated with honors. |
She might be. But we all know if you went to USC and graduated, it means nothing. Unless you didn't follow the news
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kentu_tiro
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Joined: 30 Sep 2007
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| Posted: Tue Aug 03, 2021 6:54 pm Post subject: |
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The $43M will come from Jim Buss’ portion of the estate.
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venturalakersfan
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Joined: 14 Apr 2001
Posts: 144588
Location: The Gold Coast
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| Posted: Tue Aug 03, 2021 6:58 pm Post subject: |
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| vasashi17+ wrote: | | Laker's Fan wrote: | | I believe in the last CBA they changed it so the tax is calculated based on the salary paid to players instead of where you sit at the end of the season. So for example if you had a $10m player who you traded half way through the season, they would still count for $5m in your tax calculation. Can't just cut and run. By the same token, if you trade for more salary at the deadline, you don't take the full year's hit. |
I don’t know about that LF. I believe it is the contracts you gave retained in the last day of the season. So I believe VLF is correct in this case.
I believe the time of proration in terms to the tax only applies to the non/partial guaranteed deals that fully guarantee after Jan 10.
For example, McK will not count as a tax hit since he was waived before the season started. If he played for a week in the beginning of the season, before he was waived that prorated amount will be calculated in the tax. But I believe that’s the only situation proration applies towards the tax. |
It is after the last regular season game, not at the end of June. So t was changed.
Teams pay an incremental tax rate based on their team salary as of the team's last regular season game, and whether the team is a "repeat offender," i.e., whether they were also taxpayers in at least three of the four previous seasons (not including the previous season):
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venturalakersfan
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Joined: 14 Apr 2001
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Location: The Gold Coast
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| Posted: Tue Aug 03, 2021 7:03 pm Post subject: |
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| 32 wrote: | I think the pandemic has hit the Lakers financially. This article from Forbes came out in March of last year.
The Coronavirus Pandemic Could Cost NBA Nearly $690 Million In Ticket Revenue
| Quote: | | Unsurprisingly, it’s the Los Angeles Lakers, who could lose approximately $82.1 million for their ten remaining regular-season games, with an average ticket cost being around $432. |
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And didn't they play most, if not all, of last season without fans? More lost revenue. Just as I wouldn't begrudge a player for moving on for more money, I won't begrudge ownership of saving every dollar they can. It is a business after all.
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venturalakersfan
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Location: The Gold Coast
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| Posted: Tue Aug 03, 2021 7:06 pm Post subject: |
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| leor_77 wrote: | | That's nothing - besides the revenue / income they generate, the Lakers, as an asset, probably appreciates in value by $400-500 mil per year. |
Their value was just assessed when AEG sold out, I don't remember off the top of my head what value they assessed it at. The organization is limited in how much they can play players by the CBA, with the age of this team spending some profits on more updated medical care might be a good investment.
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twisted
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Joined: 09 Jun 2012
Posts: 1265
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| Posted: Wed Aug 04, 2021 12:58 am Post subject: |
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Frankly, 42M is not that much considering Lakers is the biggest international brand in the NBA.
Compare that with what GS and Joe Tsai are paying. The Nets will have to shell out at least 90M, and if their sign and trade for Dinwiddie pushes through, it could potentially add 60M in Taxes alone this year, on top of the additional 20M in salary.
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oaktown_dimond
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Joined: 16 Nov 2007
Posts: 1371
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| Posted: Thu Aug 05, 2021 10:15 am Post subject: |
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i've thought this for a while. with the Buss family (specifically Jeanie) as owners, it has this sorta mom and pop charm to free agents. Jeanie is able to capitalize on it much more than Jim... who did come off as a trust fund baby. BUT jeanie adheres to her father's notion that the lakers are nothing without it's players.
compare that to ballmer and the other typically old white billionaire men. they have an air that teams are just one more possession in which to show off their immense wealth... whether that be a huge yacht, private jet, flying to space... or the clippers. it inadvertently demeans the importance of every NBA player's life goal. like the players are nothing more than quarter horses for rich men to gloat about to each other.
anyway, the point is jeanie and Rob (and LeBron) have done a great job of intimating that the lakers truly value their players. and like the players, basketball is the ONLY THING that matters to the Buss family as well. can't say that for the ballmers and lacobs of the world.
Last edited by oaktown_dimond on Thu Aug 05, 2021 10:22 am; edited 1 time in total |
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oaktown_dimond
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Joined: 16 Nov 2007
Posts: 1371
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| Posted: Thu Aug 05, 2021 10:19 am Post subject: |
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| oh, and as far as the luxury tax... it seems lacob FINALLY realized that the repeater tax ain't nothin' to trifle with. he was previously gloating that it didn't mean sh*t to his rich ass. |
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activeverb
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Joined: 17 Jun 2006
Posts: 37470
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| Posted: Thu Aug 05, 2021 10:45 am Post subject: |
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| vasashi17+ wrote: | And I’m a bit shocked folks aren’t acknowledging the “if healthy” discussion of yesteryear.
Russ will shield Bron. Love it and couldn’t ask for anything more being in the mostly powerless situation we were in.
But we’ve seen some fluky stuff and god forbid, one if our trio go down for a lengthy portion. Heading into the deadline, we could potentially see names where if we brought them in, it could salvage the ever shrinking Bron tithe window. You turn to the roster and you’re forced now to send out THT as any meaningful salary.
Instead of letting AC walk, it’s yet another dude that has been impactful in his play, can still be meaningful salary/asset in a deal and more importantly adds that much more depth for our trio. Russ is going to cover Bron more, but I’m sure we still want to cover Russ as well.
Dude was an above average player on a below average deal. UnbelievaBull asset and we’re asses for letting it go.
At about 8.5m, we let this guy go and I’m sorry, it was a terribull non-move. I know its not my money...but it is my opinion nonetheless.
This is our window...utilize every asset you got till it’s closed. |
As you admit, that's easy for you to say, because it's not your money.
But let's have a reality check:
Signing Caruso, with salary and taxes, would have cost another $30 million this year alone.
Basically, that requires Jeanie to go to her relatives and say, "If each of you give up $3 million this year that you could have put in your own pocket, we can sign Caruso."
That's a hard sell, and I'm not sure if I would do it in her position. If I were a member of the Buss Family Trust, I probably wouldn't want to pull $3 million out of my pocket to give the team a slightly better chance to win. The cost-benefit analysis wouldn't have justified that for me. I would have said, "Let Caruso go, and I'll keep the money. We're spending enough."
Jeanie has to look at this from a real-world perspective, with all the economic and political issues involved. Fans, like you and me, have the luxury of taking a fantasy basketball perspective where we can pretend the political and economic stuff doesn't matter.
Last edited by activeverb on Thu Aug 05, 2021 10:47 am; edited 1 time in total |
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Dr. Laker
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Joined: 12 Apr 2002
Posts: 17166
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| Posted: Thu Aug 05, 2021 10:45 am Post subject: |
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| twisted wrote: | Frankly, 42M is not that much considering Lakers is the biggest international brand in the NBA.
Compare that with what GS and Joe Tsai are paying. The Nets will have to shell out at least 90M, and if their sign and trade for Dinwiddie pushes through, it could potentially add 60M in Taxes alone this year, on top of the additional 20M in salary. |
The Warriors generate more revenue than the Lakers and the Nets are fighting the Knicks for control of the #1 market.
NO ownership group - no matter how wealthy they are - wants to lose money and ALL of them want to maximize profits. The notion of sports teams as "rich people's toys" died 30 years ago. Very few teams are purchased with cash.
- Dan Gilbert is worth 37 billion - but he borrowed the money to buy the CAVS.
- The Almighty Warriors had to borrow $250 million dollars to cover expenses last summer because of the lost revenue from the Chase Center.
- Nets owner Joseph Tsai had to borrow the money to buy out his partners and the Barclays Center in 2019.
Rich people stay rich by making good decisions with their money.
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CRoost
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Joined: 21 Mar 2017
Posts: 4818
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| Posted: Thu Aug 05, 2021 10:45 am Post subject: |
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| vasashi17+ wrote: | | Dr. Laker wrote: | | vasashi17+ wrote: | And I’m a bit shocked folks aren’t acknowledging the “if healthy” discussion of yesteryear.
Russ will shield Bron. Love it and couldn’t ask for anything more being in the mostly powerless situation we were in.
But we’ve seen some fluky stuff and god forbid, one if our trio go down for a lengthy portion. Heading into the deadline, we could potentially see names where if we brought them in, it could salvage the ever shrinking Bron tithe window. You turn to the roster and you’re forced now to send out THT as any meaningful salary.
Instead of letting AC walk, it’s yet another dude that has been impactful in his play, can still be meaningful salary/asset in a deal and more importantly adds that much more depth for our trio. Russ is going to cover Bron more, but I’m sure we still want to cover Russ as well.
Dude was an above average player on a below average deal. UnbelievaBull asset and we’re asses for letting it go.
At about 8.5m, we let this guy go and I’m sorry, it was a terribull non-move. I know its not my money...but it is my opinion nonetheless.
This is our window...utilize every asset you got till it’s closed. |
I think you're ignoring three key points:
1 - Lakers are clearly "all in" on THT as the eventual starting SG,
2 - Kendrick Nunn is a better/cheaper option at PG - solid defender/great handle,
3 - Caruso's replacements in his 20 minutes won't be complete zeros - what is lost in defensive intensity will be made up for on the other side. [I'm really intrigued by Malik Monk].
Bottom line - I don't think there were going to be minutes for AC. |
That’s a fair retort.
There might not be minutes, but there will be situations. He would have given us such a luxury in that if we needed stops or to secure the lead in close games, him and Russ hounding the ball-handler wound have been outstanding.
Seriously, I hope we don’t regret it, but I can’t shake the feeling that we will. |
I share the same sentiment. Plus Caruso is a proven winning type of player. He’s actually more effective on less minutes . I dunno who’s gonna be our point of attack defender, we have 3 last year and that is why our defense is superb despite missing AD most of the season and our bigs were too either too slow or can’t protect the rim. Westbrook gonna have have to get it done at that end. |
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activeverb
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Joined: 17 Jun 2006
Posts: 37470
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| Posted: Thu Aug 05, 2021 11:02 am Post subject: |
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| 32 wrote: | | Jeanie is actually a very smart woman. She attended college at the University of Southern California (USC), where she majored in business and graduated with honors. |
So you automatically assume someone is smart if they earn a degree in business with honors?
Man, I know lots of stupid people with impressive credentials.
You might enjoy reading "The Emperor's New Clothes." |
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vasashi17+
Star Player
Joined: 13 Dec 2019
Posts: 5689
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| Posted: Thu Aug 05, 2021 11:04 am Post subject: |
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| activeverb wrote: | | vasashi17+ wrote: | And I’m a bit shocked folks aren’t acknowledging the “if healthy” discussion of yesteryear.
Russ will shield Bron. Love it and couldn’t ask for anything more being in the mostly powerless situation we were in.
But we’ve seen some fluky stuff and god forbid, one if our trio go down for a lengthy portion. Heading into the deadline, we could potentially see names where if we brought them in, it could salvage the ever shrinking Bron tithe window. You turn to the roster and you’re forced now to send out THT as any meaningful salary.
Instead of letting AC walk, it’s yet another dude that has been impactful in his play, can still be meaningful salary/asset in a deal and more importantly adds that much more depth for our trio. Russ is going to cover Bron more, but I’m sure we still want to cover Russ as well.
Dude was an above average player on a below average deal. UnbelievaBull asset and we’re asses for letting it go.
At about 8.5m, we let this guy go and I’m sorry, it was a terribull non-move. I know its not my money...but it is my opinion nonetheless.
This is our window...utilize every asset you got till it’s closed. |
As you admit, that's easy for you to say, because it's not your money.
But let's have a reality check:
Signing Caruso, with salary and taxes, would have cost another $30 million this year alone.
Basically, that requires Jeanie to go to her relatives and say, "If each of you give up $3 million this year that you could have put in your own pocket, we can sign Caruso."
That's a hard sell, and I'm not sure if I would do it in her position. If I were a member of the Buss Family Trust, I probably wouldn't want to pull $3 million out of my pocket to give the team a slightly better chance to win. The cost-benefit analysis wouldn't have justified that for me. I would have said, "Let Caruso go, and I'll keep the money. We're spending enough."
Jeanie has to look at this from a real-world perspective, with all the economic and political issues involved. Fans, like you and me, have the luxury of taking a fantasy basketball perspective where we can pretend the political and economic stuff doesn't matter. |
What type of business does the family own?
Of that entertainment brand, who do the masses see as a fan favorite?
30m is a smart investment for a fan driven brand and if you consider that each vet min is nearly an 8m investment to a tax team, you could easily remove 1-2 vet min guys (ie like Ariza and Ellington) and have that much more to offer for AC without getting hit with a stricter tax rate. You can go into the season rostered at 13 with 2 2-way players.
It was a poor decision and I have yet to hear a valid enough retort to sway my opinion on it. Dude would have earned PT to close out games with next to Russ in the backcourt off of his tenacious defense alone.
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activeverb
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| Posted: Thu Aug 05, 2021 11:11 am Post subject: |
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| twisted wrote: | Frankly, 42M is not that much considering Lakers is the biggest international brand in the NBA.
Compare that with what GS and Joe Tsai are paying. The Nets will have to shell out at least 90M, and if their sign and trade for Dinwiddie pushes through, it could potentially add 60M in Taxes alone this year, on top of the additional 20M in salary. |
The big difference is the Nets and Warriors have a billionaire in charge who can make unilateral decisions.
The Nets owner is worth $13.7 billion, and he's investing to build the team's brand.
At this point, additional winning might not change the Lakers brand value to any significantly degree.
So Jeanie has to deal with the politics of how much money her relatives are willing to sacrifice today for a potential payoff in the future. My guess is that consideration -- as well as discussions with key family members -- are integral to every dollar the Lakers spend. Jeanie knows she has to cultivate and keep her relatives' allegiance to stay in power.
The Warriors and Nets don't have to worry about those politics. |
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