|
| View previous topic :: View next topic |
| Author |
Message |
ChickenStu
Retired Number
Joined: 25 Apr 2015
Posts: 32232
Location: Anaheim, CA
|
 Posted: Fri Feb 04, 2022 2:59 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| jodeke wrote: | | ChickenStu wrote: | ^
A push for a push is justified. I don't see how a push, followed by a push AND THEN A PUNCH, is a fair or appropriate reaction. That's still assault, is it not? |
I'm not a lawyer. I see it as self defense. Cifuentes may have been in fear of his life. A strange pushes him from behind. How could he know what that stranger had in mind? |
I mean, without seeing the video, sure, there's no way I can say for sure if it was justified or not. For example, did Luna push him and then posture as if he was ready to fight, or did he push, turn his back and walk away, get pushed back in turn, and then the guy just sucker-punches him? If it's just a fight gone wrong and the guy sustained a head injury from the fall, yes, I'd imagine it would be difficult for prosecutors to argue that it was an assault. |
|
| Back to top |
|
 |
Halflife
Franchise Player
Joined: 15 Aug 2015
Posts: 17208
|
| Posted: Fri Feb 04, 2022 3:08 pm Post subject: |
|
|
The best self defense, as taught by real killers in combat sports, is to run. At the very least walk away. No matter how your ego feels. If you stay make sure you can do something.
People will put you to sleep if the only thing you have going for you is being tough, or a big mouth.
My advice to everyone if you don't already. Sign up and take BJJ, combat JJ or kickboxing. age does not matter. It is an amazing workout and even if you have only done for 6 months you can protect yourself a little bit.
_________________
Kobe.
https://www.instagram.com/reel/Clw9scopegx/?igshid=YmMyMTA2M2Y= |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
jodeke
Retired Number
Joined: 17 Nov 2007
Posts: 68104
Location: In a world where admitting to not knowing something is considered a great way to learn.
|
| Posted: Fri Feb 04, 2022 3:17 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| ChickenStu wrote: | | jodeke wrote: | | ChickenStu wrote: | ^
A push for a push is justified. I don't see how a push, followed by a push AND THEN A PUNCH, is a fair or appropriate reaction. That's still assault, is it not? |
I'm not a lawyer. I see it as self defense. Cifuentes may have been in fear of his life. A strange pushes him from behind. How could he know what that stranger had in mind? |
I mean, without seeing the video, sure, there's no way I can say for sure if it was justified or not. For example, did Luna push him and then posture as if he was ready to fight, or did he push, turn his back and walk away, get pushed back in turn, and then the guy just sucker-punches him? If it's just a fight gone wrong and the guy sustained a head injury from the fall, yes, I'd imagine it would be difficult for prosecutors to argue that it was an assault. |
C'mon CS. I haven't seen the video either. The description gives rise to Luna starting the altercation and Cifuentes defending himself.
You're inventing a scenario. Are you're trying to justify your position? If so it seems a little far fetched.
If Luna had a reason to push Cifuentes so be it. He started the initial physical confrontation. As I said I'm not a lawyer. From the evidence presented I see self defense.
_________________
Be who you are and say what you feel because those who mind don't matter and those who matter don't mind.
America will never be destroyed from the outside. If we falter and lose our freedoms, it will be because we destroyed ourselves.
Last edited by jodeke on Fri Feb 04, 2022 3:24 pm; edited 1 time in total |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
LongBeachPoly
Franchise Player
Joined: 14 Jul 2012
Posts: 16242
|
| Posted: Fri Feb 04, 2022 3:24 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| ChickenStu wrote: | ^
A push for a push is justified. I don't see how a push, followed by a push AND THEN A PUNCH, is a fair or appropriate reaction. That's still assault, is it not? |
It's not justified. That's why they arrested him. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
LongBeachPoly
Franchise Player
Joined: 14 Jul 2012
Posts: 16242
|
| Posted: Fri Feb 04, 2022 3:27 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| ChickenStu wrote: | | I mean, without seeing the video, sure, there's no way I can say for sure if it was justified or not. For example, did Luna push him and then posture as if he was ready to fight, or did he push, turn his back and walk away, get pushed back in turn, and then the guy just sucker-punches him? If it's just a fight gone wrong and the guy sustained a head injury from the fall, yes, I'd imagine it would be difficult for prosecutors to argue that it was an assault. |
| Quote: | ''
When Luna turned to walk away, the man pushed Luna back", the mayor said.
"When Luna turned, the man punched him in the mouth, causing Luna to fall to the ground and hit the back of his head", Butts said, estimating that the encounter lasted less than five seconds.
|
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
LongBeachPoly
Franchise Player
Joined: 14 Jul 2012
Posts: 16242
|
| Posted: Fri Feb 04, 2022 3:29 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| jodeke wrote: | | As I said I'm not a lawyer. From the evidence presented I see self defense. |
| jodeke wrote: | | Cifuentes may have been in fear of his life. A strange pushes him from behind. How could he know what that stranger had in mind? |
Hard to fear for your life against someone walking away from you.
Last edited by LongBeachPoly on Fri Feb 04, 2022 3:31 pm; edited 1 time in total |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
jodeke
Retired Number
Joined: 17 Nov 2007
Posts: 68104
Location: In a world where admitting to not knowing something is considered a great way to learn.
|
| Posted: Fri Feb 04, 2022 3:30 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| LongBeachPoly wrote: | | ChickenStu wrote: | ^
A push for a push is justified. I don't see how a push, followed by a push AND THEN A PUNCH, is a fair or appropriate reaction. That's still assault, is it not? |
It's not justified. That's why they arrested him. |
He was arrested on suspicion of assault Where does that say it wasn't justified? Justification has to be proven or not.
_________________
Be who you are and say what you feel because those who mind don't matter and those who matter don't mind.
America will never be destroyed from the outside. If we falter and lose our freedoms, it will be because we destroyed ourselves. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
LongBeachPoly
Franchise Player
Joined: 14 Jul 2012
Posts: 16242
|
| Posted: Fri Feb 04, 2022 3:33 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| jodeke wrote: | | He was arrested on suspicion of assault. Where does that say it wasn't justified? Justification has to be proven or not. |
Based on what the police saw on video, their initial opinion right now is it's not justified. If they what they saw on video looked like self-defense, they wouldn't have arrested him.
Last edited by LongBeachPoly on Fri Feb 04, 2022 3:37 pm; edited 1 time in total |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
jodeke
Retired Number
Joined: 17 Nov 2007
Posts: 68104
Location: In a world where admitting to not knowing something is considered a great way to learn.
|
| Posted: Fri Feb 04, 2022 3:37 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| LongBeachPoly wrote: | | jodeke wrote: | | He was arrested on suspicion of assault. Where does that say it wasn't justified? Justification has to be proven or not. |
Based on what the police saw on video, their initial opinion right now is it's not justified. If they thought it was justified, they wouldn't have arrested him. |
Being arrested doesn't give rise to justification. It's the procedure. Police don't have opinions they follow protocol. If I have it right the DA presses charges. Weigh in OL. You have police experience.
_________________
Be who you are and say what you feel because those who mind don't matter and those who matter don't mind.
America will never be destroyed from the outside. If we falter and lose our freedoms, it will be because we destroyed ourselves.
Last edited by jodeke on Fri Feb 04, 2022 3:41 pm; edited 1 time in total |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
ChickenStu
Retired Number
Joined: 25 Apr 2015
Posts: 32232
Location: Anaheim, CA
|
| Posted: Fri Feb 04, 2022 3:39 pm Post subject: |
|
|
^
Yeah, it's just a matter of where the line may get crossed. As I said, if Luna pushed him, I think no one would be arguing if there was a retaliatory push back and then Luna had been injured from that. And perhaps Luna still looked like he could have been in an aggressive posture, although the description I read made it sound like he wasn't. But let's assume for a moment that Luna was in an aggressive posture, though the description does not allege that he threw a punch first. OK, so is a punch at Luna then assault, or is it justified? Where's the line for how appropriate the force back is? For example, if Luna had pushed him, the guy pushes back, and then the guy, in thinking that Luna looks aggressive, pulls out a gun and shoots Luna dead, is that justified? Obviously, I would hope that you all would agree that it wouldn't be. So is punching him justified? From the description, I'd say no, but, again, I haven't seen the video so I'm willing to reserve judgment for now. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
LongBeachPoly
Franchise Player
Joined: 14 Jul 2012
Posts: 16242
|
| Posted: Fri Feb 04, 2022 3:40 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| jodeke wrote: | | Being arrested doesn't give rise to justification. It's the procedure. Police don't have opinions they follow protocol. Weigh in OL. You have police experience. |
| Quote: | Arrest Warrants:
Police must convince a neutral judge that, more likely than not, a crime has been committed and the subject of the warrant was involved.
An arrest warrant is an official document, signed by a judge (or magistrate), which authorizes a police officer to arrest the person or people named in the warrant.
To obtain a warrant, a police officer typically submits a written affidavit to a judge or magistrate. The affidavit, given under oath, must recite sufficient factual information to establish probable cause that a crime was committed and that the person named in the warrant committed it. |
So based on what they saw on video, Cifuentes' actions are not justified (to the police and to the judge who issued the arrest warrant). |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
jodeke
Retired Number
Joined: 17 Nov 2007
Posts: 68104
Location: In a world where admitting to not knowing something is considered a great way to learn.
|
| Posted: Fri Feb 04, 2022 3:44 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| LongBeachPoly wrote: | | jodeke wrote: | | Being arrested doesn't give rise to justification. It's the procedure. Police don't have opinions they follow protocol. Weigh in OL. You have police experience. |
| Quote: | Arrest Warrants:
Police must convince a neutral judge that, more likely than not, a crime has been committed and the subject of the warrant was involved.
An arrest warrant is an official document, signed by a judge (or magistrate), which authorizes a police officer to arrest the person or people named in the warrant.
To obtain a warrant, a police officer typically submits a written affidavit to a judge or magistrate. The affidavit, given under oath, must recite sufficient factual information to establish probable cause that a crime was committed and that the person named in the warrant committed it. |
So based on what they saw on video, Cifuentes' actions is not justified (to the police and to the judge who issued the arrest warrant).
Not sure what you're arguing. |
As I said I'm not a lawyer. I'm coming from the stance of a bystander. I may be wrong according to law. The police are following protocol. Serving an arrest warrant.
_________________
Be who you are and say what you feel because those who mind don't matter and those who matter don't mind.
America will never be destroyed from the outside. If we falter and lose our freedoms, it will be because we destroyed ourselves.
Last edited by jodeke on Fri Feb 04, 2022 3:46 pm; edited 1 time in total |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
LongBeachPoly
Franchise Player
Joined: 14 Jul 2012
Posts: 16242
|
| Posted: Fri Feb 04, 2022 3:46 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| jodeke wrote: |
As I said I'm not a lawyer. I'm coming from the stance of a bystander. I may be wrong according to law. |
Yeah, I understand you think it's justified. I'm not saying you're wrong (although I disagree). But, I'm saying right now, the police don't think so and a judge doesn't think so.
But, a jury might think it's justified at a trial.
And it's very hard to claim self defense when Luna was walking away. It's just hard for Cifuentes to make that argument. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
jodeke
Retired Number
Joined: 17 Nov 2007
Posts: 68104
Location: In a world where admitting to not knowing something is considered a great way to learn.
|
| Posted: Fri Feb 04, 2022 3:52 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| LongBeachPoly wrote: | | jodeke wrote: |
As I said I'm not a lawyer. I'm coming from the stance of a bystander. I may be wrong according to law. |
Yeah, I understand you think it's justified. I'm not saying you're wrong (although I disagree). But, I'm saying right now, the police don't think so and a judge doesn't think so.
But, a jury might think it's justified at a trial. |
That's where we conflict. The police don't pass judgment. They what they're told. They could not make an arrest without a warrant. They give what they have to, I think, the DA who makes the decision to arrest or not, and then a judge decides whether or not to issue an arrest warrant.
If I were a betting man I'd bet Bryan walks.
_________________
Be who you are and say what you feel because those who mind don't matter and those who matter don't mind.
America will never be destroyed from the outside. If we falter and lose our freedoms, it will be because we destroyed ourselves. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
LongBeachPoly
Franchise Player
Joined: 14 Jul 2012
Posts: 16242
|
| Posted: Fri Feb 04, 2022 3:56 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| jodeke wrote: | | The police are following protocol. Serving an arrest warrant. |
They don't always serve arrest warrants though. They haven't served one to Trevor Bauer.
They didn't serve one initially to the cop shooting at Costco. They must think that a crime was committed before they serve an arrest warrant.
It's not just protocol where they serve arrest warrants to everyone.
Here's a shooting where the authorities deemed it justified and won't issue an arrest warrant:
| Quote: | St. Louis County Prosecutor: No Charges in Woman's Death
Authorities say a man who shot a woman to death in St. Louis County will not face charges.
Jan. 12, 2022, at 2:19 p.m.
A man who shot a woman to death during an apparent robbery attempt in north St. Louis County this week will not face charges because the shooting was justified, authorities said Wednesday.
The shooting of Shabria Furlow, 23, of Bridgeton early Tuesday was self-defense, said Christopher King, a spokesman for the St. Louis County prosecuting attorney’s office.
Furlow was with four men, two of them armed, when the man confronted them at a home in Glasgow Village. They were trying to commit a robbery or home invasion, police said.
Furlow and the man who shot her knew each other from Arkansas, where Furlow has many relatives. The man was visiting the home where the shooting occurred, the St. Louis Post-Dispatch reported.
Police haven’t caught the men who were with Furlow so they don’t know their motive for the confrontation. |
I can say with confidence that if Luna tried to mug Cifuentes by attacking him from behind and Cifuentes turned around and punched him, and all this was caught on video... Cifuentes wouldn't have been arrested because that's clearly self defense.
Last edited by LongBeachPoly on Fri Feb 04, 2022 4:08 pm; edited 1 time in total |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
jodeke
Retired Number
Joined: 17 Nov 2007
Posts: 68104
Location: In a world where admitting to not knowing something is considered a great way to learn.
|
| Posted: Fri Feb 04, 2022 4:06 pm Post subject: |
|
|
You're presenting circumstance varied. In the case we're discussing a warrant was served. Not all cases are the same. In this case, Bryant had left the scene. I don't think they could have arrested him without a warrant. But we digress. Initially, we were discussing justification. I think Cifuentes was justified in punching Luna in the face. Luna pushed him. Survival instincts kick in. It was a fight.
_________________
Be who you are and say what you feel because those who mind don't matter and those who matter don't mind.
America will never be destroyed from the outside. If we falter and lose our freedoms, it will be because we destroyed ourselves.
Last edited by jodeke on Fri Feb 04, 2022 4:12 pm; edited 1 time in total |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
LongBeachPoly
Franchise Player
Joined: 14 Jul 2012
Posts: 16242
|
| Posted: Fri Feb 04, 2022 4:10 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| jodeke wrote: | | You're presenting circumstance varied. In the case we're discussing a warrant was served. Not all cases are the same. In this case, Bryant had left the scene. I don't think they could have arrested him without a warrant. But we digress. Initially, we were discussing justification. I think Cifuentes was justified in punching Luna in the face. Luna pushed him. It was a fight. |
Like I said, you're entitled to your opinion. You feel it's justified. I'm not going to tell you how to feel.
I'm saying, according to the police, and the judge who signed the arrest warrant, based on the video they saw, they don't think it's justified. I don't know how you can dispute that. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
jodeke
Retired Number
Joined: 17 Nov 2007
Posts: 68104
Location: In a world where admitting to not knowing something is considered a great way to learn.
|
| Posted: Fri Feb 04, 2022 4:13 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| LongBeachPoly wrote: | | jodeke wrote: | | You're presenting circumstance varied. In the case we're discussing a warrant was served. Not all cases are the same. In this case, Bryant had left the scene. I don't think they could have arrested him without a warrant. But we digress. Initially, we were discussing justification. I think Cifuentes was justified in punching Luna in the face. Luna pushed him. It was a fight. |
Like I said, you're entitled to your opinion. You feel it's justified. I'm not going to tell you how to feel.
I'm saying, according to the police, and the judge who signed the arrest warrant, based on the video they saw, they don't think it's justified. I don't know how you can dispute that. |
T
Not seeing the entire video that's my opinion. I think Bryant was justified in punching Luna in the face. What the judge saw is most likely what was the deciding reason for the arrest. Let's see how a jury of his peers decides.
_________________
Be who you are and say what you feel because those who mind don't matter and those who matter don't mind.
America will never be destroyed from the outside. If we falter and lose our freedoms, it will be because we destroyed ourselves.
Last edited by jodeke on Fri Feb 04, 2022 4:16 pm; edited 1 time in total |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
LongBeachPoly
Franchise Player
Joined: 14 Jul 2012
Posts: 16242
|
| Posted: Fri Feb 04, 2022 4:15 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| jodeke wrote: | | LongBeachPoly wrote: | | jodeke wrote: | | You're presenting circumstance varied. In the case we're discussing a warrant was served. Not all cases are the same. In this case, Bryant had left the scene. I don't think they could have arrested him without a warrant. But we digress. Initially, we were discussing justification. I think Cifuentes was justified in punching Luna in the face. Luna pushed him. It was a fight. |
Like I said, you're entitled to your opinion. You feel it's justified. I'm not going to tell you how to feel.
I'm saying, according to the police, and the judge who signed the arrest warrant, based on the video they saw, they don't think it's justified. I don't know how you can dispute that. |
That's my opinion. I think Bryant was justified in punching Luna in the face. Let's see how a jury of his peers decides. |
If it goes to trial that means the DA also doesn't think it was justified.
Maybe they can find 12 jurors that feel the same as you. Never know. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
32
Retired Number
Joined: 04 Nov 2009
Posts: 73144
|
| Posted: Fri Feb 04, 2022 4:17 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Quote: | | SoFi Stadium assault case may prove challenging for prosecutors, some experts say |
https://twitter.com/latimes/status/1489725457293627400
_________________
Nobody in the NBA can touch the Laker brand, which, like the uniform color, is pure gold. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
jodeke
Retired Number
Joined: 17 Nov 2007
Posts: 68104
Location: In a world where admitting to not knowing something is considered a great way to learn.
|
| Posted: Fri Feb 04, 2022 4:17 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| LongBeachPoly wrote: | | jodeke wrote: | | LongBeachPoly wrote: | | jodeke wrote: | | You're presenting circumstance varied. In the case we're discussing a warrant was served. Not all cases are the same. In this case, Bryant had left the scene. I don't think they could have arrested him without a warrant. But we digress. Initially, we were discussing justification. I think Cifuentes was justified in punching Luna in the face. Luna pushed him. It was a fight. |
Like I said, you're entitled to your opinion. You feel it's justified. I'm not going to tell you how to feel.
I'm saying, according to the police, and the judge who signed the arrest warrant, based on the video they saw, they don't think it's justified. I don't know how you can dispute that. |
That's my opinion. I think Bryant was justified in punching Luna in the face. Let's see how a jury of his peers decides. |
If it goes to trial that means the DA also doesn't think it was justified.
Maybe they can find 12 jurors that feel the same as you. Never know. |
Tru Dat. I'm betting on Bryant. Who you got?
_________________
Be who you are and say what you feel because those who mind don't matter and those who matter don't mind.
America will never be destroyed from the outside. If we falter and lose our freedoms, it will be because we destroyed ourselves. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
jodeke
Retired Number
Joined: 17 Nov 2007
Posts: 68104
Location: In a world where admitting to not knowing something is considered a great way to learn.
|
| Posted: Fri Feb 04, 2022 4:46 pm Post subject: |
|
|
I couldn't read the entire article. I'm not a subscriber. Is this close to your article?
SoFi Stadium assault case may prove challenging for prosecutors, some experts say
LINK
_________________
Be who you are and say what you feel because those who mind don't matter and those who matter don't mind.
America will never be destroyed from the outside. If we falter and lose our freedoms, it will be because we destroyed ourselves. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
32
Retired Number
Joined: 04 Nov 2009
Posts: 73144
|
| Posted: Fri Feb 04, 2022 4:52 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| jodeke wrote: |
I couldn't read the entire article. I'm not a subscriber. Is this close to your article?
SoFi Stadium assault case may prove challenging for prosecutors, some experts say
LINK |
I couldn't read it either cuz I'm not a subscriber. I just posted the headline for those that have the LA Times. That looks like it's the same article.
_________________
Nobody in the NBA can touch the Laker brand, which, like the uniform color, is pure gold.
Last edited by 32 on Fri Feb 04, 2022 4:53 pm; edited 1 time in total |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
venturalakersfan
Retired Number
Joined: 14 Apr 2001
Posts: 144591
Location: The Gold Coast
|
| Posted: Fri Feb 04, 2022 4:52 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| jodeke wrote: | | ChickenStu wrote: | ^
A push for a push is justified. I don't see how a push, followed by a push AND THEN A PUNCH, is a fair or appropriate reaction. That's still assault, is it not? |
I'm not a lawyer. I see it as self defense. Cifuentes may have been in fear of his life. A strange pushes him from behind. How could he know what that stranger had in mind? |
Because the stranger then turned and walked away? I don’t see how that is a threatening move.
_________________
RIP mom. 11-21-1933 to 6-14-2023. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
jodeke
Retired Number
Joined: 17 Nov 2007
Posts: 68104
Location: In a world where admitting to not knowing something is considered a great way to learn.
|
| Posted: Fri Feb 04, 2022 5:15 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| venturalakersfan wrote: | | jodeke wrote: | | ChickenStu wrote: | ^
A push for a push is justified. I don't see how a push, followed by a push AND THEN A PUNCH, is a fair or appropriate reaction. That's still assault, is it not? |
I'm not a lawyer. I see it as self defense. Cifuentes may have been in fear of his life. A strange pushes him from behind. How could he know what that stranger had in mind? |
Because the stranger then turned and walked away? I don’t see how that is a threatening move. |
I didn't read that. If he walked away that could make a difference. Do you have a link to support that?
_________________
Be who you are and say what you feel because those who mind don't matter and those who matter don't mind.
America will never be destroyed from the outside. If we falter and lose our freedoms, it will be because we destroyed ourselves. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
|
|
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
|
|
