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brutella
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 Posted: Thu Jan 25, 2007 7:42 pm Post subject: |
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| ocho wrote: | | LarryCoon wrote: | | lionballer7 wrote: | | The ending lacked something, I just couldn't put my finger on it |
Plausibility? 
| Quote: | | Has anyone else seen it recently??? |
SPOILER ALERT
I've only seen it that one time, but my opinion is still the same. My two big problems with the movie were plausibility of some of the characters & what they do; and the big Deus ex Machina resolution. I don't know why this is a big deal with this film, because almost every movie ever made is flawed and/or could have been better. Maybe it's because this particular film coulda been a contender, 'cept it fell short because of a few simple problems. While most films are flawed, few of them could have been great, so it's no big loss. This one could have been great.
Some of the plausibility things are --
-- Damon's condo. Someone deep undercover doesn't do obvious things to blow it, like live somewhere way above his means.
-- The relationship between Damon & the girl. Completely unbelievable.
-- DiCaprio hooking up with the girl. First the unlikely coincidence of the love triangle. Second the fact that a therapist would get involved with a patient. Not that it never happens, but it happens a hell of a lot less frequently than movies & TV would have you believe. I think I'm more aware of this because my brother (a psychologist & psych textbook author) pointed it out.
-- Characters like Whalberg seemed completely added on. As the resolution of the film shows, he was really only necessary for the ending, but they had to back-fill him into the rest of the movie.
As I wrote previously, here's what in my opinion would have made for a much better movie:
-- Damon stays more in character. He's trying to play a normal cop -- he
needs to act like it more.
-- Damon hooks up with a different girl. In his case, it needed to be a damsel he could "rescue," then you get the bad guy being a good guy with regard to the girl, and a much more believable matchup than the cop/psychologist presented by the film. Plus him being a hero to a girl would be more in line with the cover he's trying to protect.
-- DiCaprio gets the psychologist, but there's no professional aspect to it -- he's never her patient, he never seeks meds, etc. Let her hook up with him, then slowly find out what he's been up to, and let that be the source of the tension between them.
-- People can die at the end, but the A kills B kills C kills D kills E kills F ending was unnecessary. Whalberg's character can go away entirely -- he's not necessary. Let enough people die so that DiCaprio is left, and nobody alive knows who he really is. Now he has two choices -- he can break his cover and go back to being a cop, or he can stay a mob guy, with all the money & power that goes with it, taking over for the Nicholson character. End the move by having DiCaprio face this choice, and then finish with him making it, or finish with it unresolved. Probably the better ending would be with him fully becoming a mobster -- good guy acting like a bad guy, and finally becoming what he pretended to be.
But what do I know.....I'm not a screenwriter. |
the condo- a symbol for damon's character. using his mob earnings to live in a place that a normal cop couldn't. though he is obviously able to afford this because of his dirty dealings...it overlooks the capital building. its a symbol of him being caught between both worlds.
dicaprio/damon's relationship with the therapist- i think you may be looking into this relationship from too much of a romantic traditionalist point of view. the therapist did not exist in the film to be an object of sexual desire for either character. she is a maternal, nurturing figure. when dicaprio is feeling the heat and he can't take it anymore....he runs to "mommy". it's no mistake that she's a therapist and it's no mistake she's the only female in the film. they live in a world of men....of male posturing and machismo. a constant cycle of tough guy talk and brutal violence. the female therapist serves as a vessel for the two to be vulnerable and thus...become three dimensional characters.
as far as the improbability of both characters hooking up with the same woman....this is integral to the film. one of the major themes of the film is the similarites in this world between cop and robber. as nicholson says in the first part of the film..."when you're staring down the barrel of a loaded gun...what's the difference?". it is important to draw these similarities in behavior...they even go for the same girls! the genius of the film is not only using her character to draw this parallel...but to also make her a character with substance. she serves a purpose outside of just this parallel. it may not seem realistic in a real life sense...but this isnt' real life it's a movie, and her character is integral in reinforcing the film's major themes.
as far as the violence that resolves the film....the cycle of violence is another theme of the film. violence begets violence begets violence. the wahlberg character is just like the other male characters in the film from damon to dicaprio to nicholson. what makes these characters different is only their motivations but their methods, attitude, and posturing are the same. it is important to have mobsters commit murder but it is ALSO important to have cops commit murder. completes the cyc
le of violence and reinforces that theme. |
You should be a critic ocho, love how you break down movies. |
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MIMLaker
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| Posted: Sat Feb 17, 2007 9:10 am Post subject: |
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Just saw it last night on DVD.
LOVED the dialogue, the suspense, the fact that the cast didn't seem all bloated with itself.
BUT, watching it with my English teacher wife and my good female screenwriter friend, I was bugged by a few things:
(1) Is this just a straight-up GUY movie? I was loving it, the suspense was getting to me, and I was shocked at a couple of gunshots. The girls were unimpressed with it.
(2) SPOILER --> Couldn't they have shown something to establish how the final shooter got the info about the crooked cop? I don't know, show him having the brown envelope, something?
(3) How much info was Leo really giving the cops? I didn't get the sense he gave any major dirt other than the macguffin plot with the Chinese, but that wasn't much, either. Was he inside for nothing? Was that the point?
(4) Was it just me, or did the editing SUCK? I looked at the deleted scenes (most of which weren't worth much, except for a good flashback to Leo's dad and 2 minutes before Alec Baldwin's bowl of ice water) but it seemed a little TOO long at the end, like theyw ere throwing everythign they could on.
(5) I love Jack, but they didn't need him all that much, did he?
(6) Shoot, they didn't really need the therapist character. She was solid, but this movie could have been so much tighter for me if they just tried to show Leo and Matt as mirror-images as the "sons" of Jack. Cut out the therapist and the pseudo-triangle, and you save 20 minutes from the 1510minute running time.
Again, though, in spite of all of these misgivings, I LOVED watching this movie:
Matt Damon was fun to watch being a smarmy little weasel.  Good stuff.
Leo gave some tough, sympathetic moments in this. Dude's a grown-up now. 
Jack was Jack, although his loopiness got a little forced at the end. 
Alec Baldwin was chewing scenery like it was freshly canned Skoal, and spitting like an Uzi. Beautiful. 
But best of all, and I can't believe I'm saying it...
 MARK WAHLBERG! You awesomely obnoxious punk-*** son of a motherless <bleep> ...
Calvin Klein boy didn't just nail this role. He nailed it to the wall, kicked it in the crotch for five minutes, and then set the freaking house on fire. 
The script ROCKED. Yeah,. I know it's a remake, but the adaptation by William monahan (who did Kingdom of Heaven -- see the glorious Director's Cut, not the chopped-up theatrical verison) did great work in introducing Boston neighborhodds and blissfully profane banter.
The story got a little disjointed, but I blame that on editing and pacing -- yeah, I'm talking to you, Scorsese and your critically-acclaimed editor (whose name I forget at the moment).
Nonetheless, I'm glad I bought the movie (cheaper than two movie tickets, anyway).
For crime movies, not as great as Godfather or LA Confidential, but I put it above Heat and Collateral. (forgive me, still haven't seen Goodfellas).
OK, enough from me.
MIM
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MIMLaker
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| Posted: Sat Feb 17, 2007 9:19 am Post subject: |
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| ocho wrote: | larry-
(SPOILER WARNING)
the role of the vera farmiga's character int he film was to show the parallels between damon and dicaprio. it all goes back to jack's line that you either become a cop or a criminal but when you're staring down the barrel of a loaded gun...what's the difference? by having both men interested in the same woman it gives them not only both human qualities (both men are on the edge the entire film) but also links them as two sides of the same coin. they didn't dwell on the romance so for me it served its purpose without becoming distracting.
as far as the ending..i think it's pretty consistent with the themes of the film. corruption, unpredictability, violence, and revenge. |
ocho -- Personally, I thikn they could have left her out entirely. they could have paralleled all the different father-son relationships and drawn the comaprisons that way:
Costigan and Queenan / Sullivan and Ellerbee ("You are a policeman, my son" before Baldwin puts his face in the water bowl)
Costigan and Costello/ Sullivan and Costello
Costigan and Costello/ Costigan and his father (there's a great deleted flashback scene between Costello and Billy's father that should have been kept in).
The girl was nice to look at, but cut her out and the apcing would have been much better.
MIM
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mbloves L.A.
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| Posted: Sat Feb 17, 2007 10:26 am Post subject: |
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I was heartbroken in the end.
In the least gay way possible.
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MIMLaker
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| Posted: Sat Feb 17, 2007 10:38 am Post subject: |
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^^^I understand thing. No way so many bad-*** muthas should have to die like that.
MIM
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thegreatest
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| Posted: Sat Feb 17, 2007 11:33 am Post subject: |
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| Great Movie. I Just picked up a copy on Blu-ray! One of my favs! |
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ocho
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| Posted: Sat Feb 17, 2007 3:00 pm Post subject: |
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| MIMLaker wrote: | | ocho wrote: | larry-
(SPOILER WARNING)
the role of the vera farmiga's character int he film was to show the parallels between damon and dicaprio. it all goes back to jack's line that you either become a cop or a criminal but when you're staring down the barrel of a loaded gun...what's the difference? by having both men interested in the same woman it gives them not only both human qualities (both men are on the edge the entire film) but also links them as two sides of the same coin. they didn't dwell on the romance so for me it served its purpose without becoming distracting.
as far as the ending..i think it's pretty consistent with the themes of the film. corruption, unpredictability, violence, and revenge. |
ocho -- Personally, I thikn they could have left her out entirely. they could have paralleled all the different father-son relationships and drawn the comaprisons that way:
Costigan and Queenan / Sullivan and Ellerbee ("You are a policeman, my son" before Baldwin puts his face in the water bowl)
Costigan and Costello/ Sullivan and Costello
Costigan and Costello/ Costigan and his father (there's a great deleted flashback scene between Costello and Billy's father that should have been kept in).
The girl was nice to look at, but cut her out and the apcing would have been much better.
MIM |
i don't think there's anything wrong with the pacing. the movie is 2.5 hrs and flys by. the girl is a necessary character for reasons i've already listed. its not just drawing the parallels between characters...although it does that nicely. it also allows the characters to be vulnerable. for damon she also represents his double life. BIG theme in the film. for dicaprio she's his only tie to the outside world. to a normal life. VERY important for his character. she's not just a bimbo the two of them nail. she's integral to developing damon and dicaprio's chrachters and establishing the themes of the film.
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MIMLaker
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| Posted: Sat Feb 17, 2007 3:25 pm Post subject: |
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Most of the pacing's fine, except, I think, for the last half-hour.
As for vulnerability, She does serve a purpose there, but I think seeing Damon feel guilty after the gunfight, plus Leo gradually cracking under the strain, shows sufficient vulnerability.
MIM
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ocho
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| Posted: Sat Feb 17, 2007 3:45 pm Post subject: |
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right but without her...these two characters have no ties to the outside world. they're one dimensional characters. cops and robbers. she gives them depth and enhances the dual life theme.
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