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999
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 Posted: Tue Nov 21, 2006 9:36 am Post subject: |
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wow you guys are still on this  |
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bynumisking
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| Posted: Tue Nov 21, 2006 10:12 am Post subject: |
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he deserved it. it was obvious this arrogant a-hole wanted a scene screaming like a whiny biatch. show of power thru the taze was justified. imagine a world where people would be able to yell at and ignore a simple order from an officer without fear of consequence. obviously, there'd be chaos everywhere and crime rate would increase dramatically.
and the tazer is defined as a non-lethal device used to subdue a person by use of electric shock and has been issued to police personnel due to its non-lethal classification: intended for use on unarmed suspects. so i see no reason for the cops in question not to use the device this instance. the person was obviously resisting arrest as the video clearly shows. rather than grapple with him, the tazer, i think, was the much easier and practical alternative. this device prevented the cops from sustaining a bruise which would have possibly been the case had they grappled with this maniacal a-hole. physical force and tazer are both intended for use as a non-lethal means to contain an unarmed suspect resisting arrest. so use of the tazer, in my opinion, was justified. but sadly, the kid is still going to get his $$$ and the poor officers fired. all because of a public outrcy from same-minded arrogant fools who don't know how to show respect to authority otherwise paid to protect their sorry asses. |
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methdxman
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Posts: 6879
Location: Los Angeles/Barcelona
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| Posted: Tue Nov 21, 2006 11:42 am Post subject: |
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| Freakout wrote: | | Surfitall wrote: | | And now it comes out in today's LA Times that this same officer has been fired from the Long Beach police department, choked someone who was hanging outside a UCLA fraternity (who sued the school), and shot a homeless man. |
Why am I not suprised?
The student was still at fault for not showing his ID. Racial profiling or not, had he showed his ID it probally wouldn't have esculated. That however doesn't change the fact that the cops went overboard.
I've seen video's of cops tasering 17 year old girls for refusing to get out of their vehicles. That I can partially understand. The problem is once their out of the vehicle, stomach down on the ground handcuffed, then the cop has no right to taser her again just because she wouldn't stand up. It's not like she's protesting....she's lieing on the ground crying her eyes out.
There is always a few that make the whole look bad. |
Who cares if the student was at fault for not showing his ID? Who cares if he was screaming. He wasn't endangering anyone's life, nor was a posing a threat to the cops. The student is a douche bag, but again, it has nothing to do with anything.
Like I said, my theory about cops (some, obviously) being total power trippers has once again been proven CORRECT. I didn't even know this scum bag was fired from the LBPD and that he had other "incidents". Typical scum bag cop behavior. Typical power tripper.
About 70% of cops make the other 30% look bad. |
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The Dagger
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Joined: 15 Mar 2002
Posts: 7276
Location: Sovngarde
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| Posted: Tue Nov 21, 2006 1:03 pm Post subject: |
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| I think the cops are in the clear based on training regiment and case law. The student obviously had this planned for a political statement against racial profiling of people of Middle Eastern descent. Why else would he just refuse to leave the premises, refuse to show his I.D. (that was on his person) and scream, yell, and even go as far to try and incite a riot. The cops will argue that they had to taser him to restore order in the area. The tasering of one out of control individual far outweighs the consequences of a riot. Hopefully this student is prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law and his lawsuit is thrown out of court as frivolous and no settlement is negotiated. We do not want to encourage more of this maddness. |
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TACH
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Joined: 03 Nov 2005
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Location: Chillin on the Delaware.. from the Jersey Side
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| Posted: Tue Nov 21, 2006 1:55 pm Post subject: |
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| methdxman wrote: | | Freakout wrote: | | Surfitall wrote: | | And now it comes out in today's LA Times that this same officer has been fired from the Long Beach police department, choked someone who was hanging outside a UCLA fraternity (who sued the school), and shot a homeless man. |
Why am I not suprised?
The student was still at fault for not showing his ID. Racial profiling or not, had he showed his ID it probally wouldn't have esculated. That however doesn't change the fact that the cops went overboard.
I've seen video's of cops tasering 17 year old girls for refusing to get out of their vehicles. That I can partially understand. The problem is once their out of the vehicle, stomach down on the ground handcuffed, then the cop has no right to taser her again just because she wouldn't stand up. It's not like she's protesting....she's lieing on the ground crying her eyes out.
There is always a few that make the whole look bad. |
Who cares if the student was at fault for not showing his ID? Who cares if he was screaming. He wasn't endangering anyone's life, nor was a posing a threat to the cops. The student is a douche bag, but again, it has nothing to do with anything.
Like I said, my theory about cops (some, obviously) being total power trippers has once again been proven CORRECT. I didn't even know this scum bag was fired from the LBPD and that he had other "incidents". Typical scum bag cop behavior. Typical power tripper.
About 70% of cops make the other 30% look bad. |
How are the campus security/police to know he doesn't pose a danger? You have a man acting irrational in a building with 100's of other students simply because he would not produce an ID. Ask the Amish or any other school that has endured a shooting. |
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TACH
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| Posted: Tue Nov 21, 2006 1:57 pm Post subject: |
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| The Dagger wrote: | | I think the cops are in the clear based on training regiment and case law. The student obviously had this planned for a political statement against racial profiling of people of Middle Eastern descent. Why else would he just refuse to leave the premises, refuse to show his I.D. (that was on his person) and scream, yell, and even go as far to try and incite a riot. The cops will argue that they had to taser him to restore order in the area. The tasering of one out of control individual far outweighs the consequences of a riot. Hopefully this student is prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law and his lawsuit is thrown out of court as frivolous and no settlement is negotiated. We do not want to encourage more of this maddness. |
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Surfitall
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Joined: 12 Feb 2002
Posts: 3829
Location: South Orange County
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| Posted: Tue Nov 21, 2006 4:04 pm Post subject: |
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| bynumisking wrote: | | he deserved it. it was obvious this arrogant a-hole wanted a scene screaming like a whiny biatch. show of power thru the taze was justified. imagine a world where people would be able to yell at and ignore a simple order from an officer without fear of consequence. obviously, there'd be chaos everywhere and crime rate would increase dramatically. |
I don't think that anyone is saying that this student didn't deserve to be arrested. That this student didn't deserve to face some consequences for his actions. But there are alternatives to using a taser to restore order and show power. The law enforcement community has used those alternatives successfully for decades.
| bynumisking wrote: |
and the tazer is defined as a non-lethal device used to subdue a person by use of electric shock and has been issued to police personnel due to its non-lethal classification: intended for use on unarmed suspects. so i see no reason for the cops in question not to use the device this instance. the person was obviously resisting arrest as the video clearly shows. rather than grapple with him, the tazer, i think, was the much easier and practical alternative. this device prevented the cops from sustaining a bruise which would have possibly been the case had they grappled with this maniacal a-hole. physical force and tazer are both intended for use as a non-lethal means to contain an unarmed suspect resisting arrest. so use of the tazer, in my opinion, was justified.
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Defined as a non-lethal device by who? In October of last year, a study was released that says that 148 people in the United States and Canada have died after encounters with police who shocked them with Tasers. (And more than 1/2 of those deaths occurred in the last year...15 of them occurred in California)
Imagine if one of those 148 people were a loved one of yours who committed some minor offense. Would you still consider it non-lethal?
How about this. What if the UCLA student died as a result of the Taser use? Would he have deserved that too?
| bynumisking wrote: |
but sadly, the kid is still going to get his $$$ and the poor officers fired. all because of a public outrcy from same-minded arrogant fools who don't know how to show respect to authority otherwise paid to protect their sorry asses. |
That's a pretty big leap. You are assuming several things.
1. That people who are against this are arrogant. Maybe you can explain that.
2. That those who oppose the use of a Taser in this particular incident don't respect authority.
I have a great respect for law enforcement. I've been pulled over and always respond with a, "Yes, sir. No, sir." and try to make their job as easy as possible. I'm thankful for the service that they provide and for the often unappreciated job that they do. But I'm also not going to just accept an abuse of their authority just because they have a tough job. |
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JIFISH
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Joined: 12 Apr 2001
Posts: 9315
Location: Los Angeles, CA
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| Posted: Tue Nov 21, 2006 11:31 pm Post subject: |
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| Surfitall wrote: | | And now it comes out in today's LA Times that this same officer has been fired from the Long Beach police department, choked someone who was hanging outside a UCLA fraternity (who sued the school), and shot a homeless man. |
Did you read the entire article? I did.
Duren (the officer in question) said he was fired from the Long Beach Police Department because "he was a probationary officer at the time and was let go because of poor report-writing skills and geographical knowledge."
He also disputes the allegations of the man who said he was choked and "according to court records, UCLA officials moved to have Duren dismissed from the police force. But after an independant administrative hearing, officials overturned the dismissal, suspending him for 90 days."
As for the shooting of the homeless man:"In October of 2003 Duren shot and wounded a homeless man he encountered in Kerckhoff Hall. Duren chased the man into the bathroom, where they struggled and he fired two shots." According to the article, Duren claims tried to grab his gun during the struggle, while the homeless man's lawyer says his client is mentally ill and didn't do anything to provoke the shooting.
The article concludes "The officer said that when the probe is complete, he'd like to sit down with students, particularly Muslim student groups, to explain his actions in the library. 'I have nothing to hide.'"
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Surfitall
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| Posted: Wed Nov 22, 2006 10:32 am Post subject: |
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Yes, I actually did read the entire article. And yes, he says that he was fired from the LBPD for xy and z. And yes, he disputes the allegations that caused him to be suspended for 90 dyas. And yes, he claims he chased a homeless man into the bathroom where a struggle ensued and he was forced to shoot the man. And now, he is claiming that he has nothing to hide and that his actions were just peachy! The only problem is, this one was caught on video.
Isn't it interesting how the same person keeps getting accused of wrong doing over and over again. There must be some conspiracy against this one law enforcement officer.
I wonder what the officers who beat Rodney King claimed? I don't seem to recall them ever saying, "Yeah, I gave him a beat down even though he was on the ground begging us to stop. And I'd do it again." Maybe I'm cynical, but most of the time when people are accused of wrongdoing, they do their best to spin things their way.
The beautfiul thing about everyone having camera phones and video cameras is that every once in awhile, we're able to see and hear what is really happening. We're able to cut through the spin, and use our eyes, ears, and brain to form our own conclusions on what is happening. |
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MIMLaker
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Joined: 18 Jul 2001
Posts: 10015
Location: Los Angeles/ Alhambra, CA
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| Posted: Wed Nov 22, 2006 11:06 am Post subject: |
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| Surfitall wrote: | Yes, I actually did read the entire article. And yes, he says that he was fired from the LBPD for xy and z. And yes, he disputes the allegations that caused him to be suspended for 90 dyas. And yes, he claims he chased a homeless man into the bathroom where a struggle ensued and he was forced to shoot the man. And now, he is claiming that he has nothing to hide and that his actions were just peachy! The only problem is, this one was caught on video.
Isn't it interesting how the same person keeps getting accused of wrong doing over and over again. There must be some conspiracy against this one law enforcement officer.
I wonder what the officers who beat Rodney King claimed? I don't seem to recall them ever saying, "Yeah, I gave him a beat down even though he was on the ground begging us to stop. And I'd do it again." Maybe I'm cynical, but most of the time when people are accused of wrongdoing, they do their best to spin things their way.
The beautfiul thing about everyone having camera phones and video cameras is that every once in awhile, we're able to see and hear what is really happening. We're able to cut through the spin, and use our eyes, ears, and brain to form our own conclusions on what is happening. |
Agreed, but with one caveat.
The footage on the net does NOT cover everything that happened.
The use of the taser? Apparently, YES.
All of the events leading up to it? NO.
All of the interactions between bystanders and officers? NO.
All of the dialogue between the alleged victim and the officers? NO.
And, take this for whatever you will, but the original attorney representing the student is no longer representing him, per the LA Times article today.
http://www.latimes.com/news/local/la-me-taser22nov22,1,6782386.story?coll=la-headlines-california
| Quote: |
UCLA police are allowed to use Tasers on passive resisters as "a pain compliance technique," Assistant Chief Jeff Young said last week. Officers can use the weapons after considering the potential injury to police and to the suspect, as well as the level of the suspect's resistance and the need for a prompt resolution.
Also Tuesday, the lawyer Tabatabainejad hired last week, Stephen Yagman, said he was no longer representing the student.
Yagman, a high-profile civil rights lawyer who has handled numerous police brutality cases, had said he planned to file a federal civil rights lawsuit accusing UCLA police of "brutal excessive force" and false arrest.
Tabatabainejad did not show his ID card to library staff or police because he thought he was being singled out because of his Middle Eastern appearance, Yagman had said. Police have said it is long-standing practice for students to show their ID cards after 11 p.m.
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MIM
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Surfitall
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| Posted: Wed Nov 22, 2006 11:46 am Post subject: |
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| Fair points MIM. |
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Bergamotichek
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| Posted: Wed Nov 22, 2006 7:27 pm Post subject: |
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| Surfitall wrote: | Defined as a non-lethal device by who? In October of last year, a study was released that says that 148 people in the United States and Canada have died after encounters with police who shocked them with Tasers. (And more than 1/2 of those deaths occurred in the last year...15 of them occurred in California)
Imagine if one of those 148 people were a loved one of yours who committed some minor offense. Would you still consider it non-lethal? |
You do realize that Tasers have more than one setting... right?
So... from your statistical data there... how about showing us how many of those deaths were caused by the low setting, which this kid was hit with. There's a HUGE difference, btw. One gives you a sharp and short jolt... the other knocks you to the ground and incapacitates you. If that kid would have been hit with the later... you wouldn't have heard him screaming. You might however, had heard him gurgling.
You also failed to show us the other number, which puts that 148 into perspective. You know... 148 deaths out of ???? cases.
Yeah... paints your statistics in a WHOLE different light. |
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angrypuppy
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Joined: 13 Apr 2001
Posts: 32768
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| Posted: Wed Nov 22, 2006 7:53 pm Post subject: |
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^
Why am I not surprised that JD knows how to use a taser?  |
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#24
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Posts: 110
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| Posted: Wed Nov 22, 2006 8:20 pm Post subject: |
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| I don't mind him getting tasered once to weaken him so security can cuff him and carry him out. But that was excessive. Tazering him for not getting up? Stupid. He's down, get 4 security guys and drag him out. |
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JIFISH
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Joined: 12 Apr 2001
Posts: 9315
Location: Los Angeles, CA
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| Posted: Wed Nov 22, 2006 11:38 pm Post subject: |
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| Surfitall wrote: | Yes, I actually did read the entire article. And yes, he says that he was fired from the LBPD for xy and z. And yes, he disputes the allegations that caused him to be suspended for 90 dyas. And yes, he claims he chased a homeless man into the bathroom where a struggle ensued and he was forced to shoot the man. And now, he is claiming that he has nothing to hide and that his actions were just peachy! The only problem is, this one was caught on video.
Isn't it interesting how the same person keeps getting accused of wrong doing over and over again. There must be some conspiracy against this one law enforcement officer. |
Then you also read that Duren has served on the university's police department for 18 years, and was named Officer of the Year in 2001. Or did you?
| Quote: | | I wonder what the officers who beat Rodney King claimed? I don't seem to recall them ever saying, "Yeah, I gave him a beat down even though he was on the ground begging us to stop. And I'd do it again." Maybe I'm cynical, but most of the time when people are accused of wrongdoing, they do their best to spin things their way. |
This the second time in this topic that someone has likened this to the Rodney King beating. King was severly beaten around the head and neck area, in violation of police policy, by 5 officers, while lying on the ground. He has suffered permanent brain damage as a result of the beating. To compare what happened to King with what happened to this student is like comparing someone who is fatally stabbed with someone who get a paper cut opening a letter.
That's not being cynical, it's being hysterical.
Did you look at the picture of Duren? Did you notice the color of his skin? Do you really think that black police officer is like the white officers who beat down Rodney King?
| Quote: | | The beautfiul thing about everyone having camera phones and video cameras is that every once in awhile, we're able to see and hear what is really happening. We're able to cut through the spin, and use our eyes, ears, and brain to form our own conclusions on what is happening. |
And the danger of video is that it can be edited and manipulated to make things appear to be happening that aren't.
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Surfitall
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Posts: 3829
Location: South Orange County
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| Posted: Thu Nov 23, 2006 8:23 pm Post subject: |
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| JD wrote: |
You do realize that Tasers have more than one setting... right?
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Nope, didn't realize that. Never used one, never been shocked with one.
| JD wrote: |
So... from your statistical data there... how about showing us how many of those deaths were caused by the low setting, which this kid was hit with. There's a HUGE difference, btw. One gives you a sharp and short jolt... the other knocks you to the ground and incapacitates you. If that kid would have been hit with the later... you wouldn't have heard him screaming. You might however, had heard him gurgling.
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I went through the trouble to look up how many deaths there have been. How about you look up the statistic of how many were caused by a low setting and get back to us with a link. Not that it matters. 148 people have died from this "non-lethal" device. That's 148 too many.
| JD wrote: |
You also failed to show us the other number, which puts that 148 into perspective. You know... 148 deaths out of ???? cases.
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I don't care if it's 148 out of 149, or 148 out of 149 million. If it's non-lethal...it's non lethal, meaning people don't die from it. At what point would the number of deaths from the use of a taser become unacceptable to you JD? Or maybe to make it simpler, just give us a percentage.
The point here is that, in a case where somebody poses no threat to the arresting officers, where they are simply practicing civil disobedience, the taser has already been proven to be, at least some of the time, a deadly tool and should not be used.
And by the way, I'm not totally against the use of tasers for law enforcement, just like I'm not against guns. But let's call a spade a spade. Tasers have killed people, and so have guns. Use them appropriately, and there would not be such an uproar.
By the way JD, I sent you a PM requesting clarification on why you deleted my earlier post several days ago and was hoping you'd send me a reply. |
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Bergamotichek
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| Posted: Thu Nov 23, 2006 9:07 pm Post subject: |
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How many people died while in police custody, where no taser was used? You want to ban police custody?
How many people died while running from the police? Should we ban police pursuing suspects?
You used a statistic with no reference point. Throwing 148 deaths out there, means absolutely NOTHING, regardless how you feel about it, when there isn't a number to correlate it against. And its absolutely asinine to expect someone else to add the substance to your numbers. You threw them out there... the onus is on you to back them up. |
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The Dagger
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Joined: 15 Mar 2002
Posts: 7276
Location: Sovngarde
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| Posted: Thu Nov 23, 2006 10:18 pm Post subject: |
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| Surfitall wrote: | | JD wrote: |
You do realize that Tasers have more than one setting... right?
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Nope, didn't realize that. Never used one, never been shocked with one.
| JD wrote: |
So... from your statistical data there... how about showing us how many of those deaths were caused by the low setting, which this kid was hit with. There's a HUGE difference, btw. One gives you a sharp and short jolt... the other knocks you to the ground and incapacitates you. If that kid would have been hit with the later... you wouldn't have heard him screaming. You might however, had heard him gurgling.
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I went through the trouble to look up how many deaths there have been. How about you look up the statistic of how many were caused by a low setting and get back to us with a link. Not that it matters. 148 people have died from this "non-lethal" device. That's 148 too many.
| JD wrote: |
You also failed to show us the other number, which puts that 148 into perspective. You know... 148 deaths out of ???? cases.
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I don't care if it's 148 out of 149, or 148 out of 149 million. If it's non-lethal...it's non lethal, meaning people don't die from it. At what point would the number of deaths from the use of a taser become unacceptable to you JD? Or maybe to make it simpler, just give us a percentage.
The point here is that, in a case where somebody poses no threat to the arresting officers, where they are simply practicing civil disobedience, the taser has already been proven to be, at least some of the time, a deadly tool and should not be used.
And by the way, I'm not totally against the use of tasers for law enforcement, just like I'm not against guns. But let's call a spade a spade. Tasers have killed people, and so have guns. Use them appropriately, and there would not be such an uproar.
By the way JD, I sent you a PM requesting clarification on why you deleted my earlier post several days ago and was hoping you'd send me a reply. |
148 too many? Prove it.....many people are tasered in order to save other lives. How many lives have been saved because of a taser? Most people that are tasered are tasered for a reason. And usually it's because they are not complying with the law. You act like these 148 people were Nuns or something. |
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Surfitall
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Joined: 12 Feb 2002
Posts: 3829
Location: South Orange County
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| Posted: Thu Nov 23, 2006 10:34 pm Post subject: |
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| JD wrote: | How many people died while in police custody, where no taser was used? You want to ban police custody?
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Either 1, you aren't reading my posts, or 2, you aren't thinking your own posts through. Here is what I said, "And by the way, I'm not totally against the use of tasers for law enforcement, just like I'm not against guns. But let's call a spade a spade. Tasers have killed people, and so have guns. Use them appropriately, and there would not be such an uproar."
I'm not for banning police custody, and I'm not for banning tasers either.
| JD wrote: |
How many people died while running from the police? Should we ban police pursuing suspects?
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Again, no idea how many people died while running from the police. I'm not for banning police pursuing suspects, and I'm not for banning tasers.
I am for the police using some common sense when trying to arrest a suspect.
| JD wrote: |
You used a statistic with no reference point. Throwing 148 deaths out there, means absolutely NOTHING, regardless how you feel about it, when there isn't a number to correlate it against. And its absolutely asinine to expect someone else to add the substance to your numbers. You threw them out there... the onus is on you to back them up. |
You just don't get it JD. The number of times that a taser has been used is meaningless. Let's say for the sake of argument that the taser has been used 1 million times in the last 2 years. I think we can agree that it is very likely that it has not been used even close to that much. If 148 people have died for every 1 million uses, then it is not a non-lethal weapon as some claim, and should be treated as such. It doesn't mean we should ban it. It just means that some common sense should be applied to it's use. A non-violent protester who is simply laying on the ground refusing to move, refusing to comply, should not be tased. They should be hog tied, arrested, and carried out. Law enforcement has been doing this since the 60's. If they fight back, if they put the officers or other folks in danger (and I don't classify shouting at the top of your lungs danger) then a taser might be an appropriate tool. |
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Surfitall
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Joined: 12 Feb 2002
Posts: 3829
Location: South Orange County
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| Posted: Thu Nov 23, 2006 10:41 pm Post subject: |
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| The Dagger wrote: |
148 too many? Prove it.....many people are tasered in order to save other lives. How many lives have been saved because of a taser? Most people that are tasered are tasered for a reason. And usually it's because they are not complying with the law. You act like these 148 people were Nuns or something. |
No, again, the point is that this is not a non-lethal weapon and should be treated as such. The 148 people that died may have been completely legitimate uses of a taser and of police force, where an officers was physically threatened, or where the public was in danger. To me, non-lethal means you don't die from it. If a weapon is potentially lethal, appropriate caution and oversight should occur.
Fight back, and get tased. Put others in danger, and get tased. Refuse to comply with an officer and lay on the ground in protest, then you should get hog tied and arrested, but not tased.
It seems so simple, but I guess it's not. |
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Surfitall
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Location: South Orange County
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| Posted: Thu Nov 23, 2006 10:55 pm Post subject: |
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| JIFISH wrote: | Then you also read that Duren has served on the university's police department for 18 years, and was named Officer of the Year in 2001. Or did you?
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Yup, read that. It's worth taking into consideration.
| Quote: | | I wonder what the officers who beat Rodney King claimed? I don't seem to recall them ever saying, "Yeah, I gave him a beat down even though he was on the ground begging us to stop. And I'd do it again." Maybe I'm cynical, but most of the time when people are accused of wrongdoing, they do their best to spin things their way. |
| JIFISH wrote: |
This the second time in this topic that someone has likened this to the Rodney King beating. King was severly beaten around the head and neck area, in violation of police policy, by 5 officers, while lying on the ground. He has suffered permanent brain damage as a result of the beating. To compare what happened to King with what happened to this student is like comparing someone who is fatally stabbed with someone who get a paper cut opening a letter.
That's not being cynical, it's being hysterical.
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I won't speak for someone else who may have compared this to the Rodney King beating. But I will point out that my post was not comparing the Rodney King beating to the UCLA tasing, but instead highlighting that when accused of wrongdoing, most people do their best to spin things their way. I was using the police involved in the Rodney King beating of examples of people who tried to spin what happened in their favor.
| JIFISH wrote: |
Did you look at the picture of Duren? Did you notice the color of his skin? Do you really think that black police officer is like the white officers who beat down Rodney King?
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Hopefully my explanation above clears up what I was trying to say in my post. With that in mind, I don't think the color of ones skin has anything to do with trying to spin events in your favor when you've been accused of wrongdoing.
| Quote: | | The beautfiul thing about everyone having camera phones and video cameras is that every once in awhile, we're able to see and hear what is really happening. We're able to cut through the spin, and use our eyes, ears, and brain to form our own conclusions on what is happening. |
| JIFISH wrote: | | And the danger of video is that it can be edited and manipulated to make things appear to be happening that aren't. |
That's true. This is really a pretty good point! I don't think that happened here (I could be wrong), but that is a danger that must be taken into consideration. |
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Money$hot!
Star Player
Joined: 18 Dec 2002
Posts: 5911
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| Posted: Thu Nov 23, 2006 11:37 pm Post subject: |
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Much like Pepper Spray, a Taser is used to incapacitate a potentially violent suspect. A Taser is not and should not be used as a punitive tool. On June 4, 2006 a precident was set in Federal Court on a very high profile case where Bay Area police used Pepper Spray to punish non-violent protesters who would not get up and move. The Humboldt county Sherrifs dept. and the Eureka Police depairtment were found guilty of Civil Rights violations with their actions. The precedents set by this case will have direct implications on the UCLA Campus Police case.
| Quote: | An eight-person federal jury returned a unanimous verdict for the Q-Tip Pepper Spray Eight activists/plaintiffs, finding the County of Humboldt and City of Eureka liable for excessive force in violation of the 4th Amendment to the U.S. Constitution.
Humboldt County Sheriff's Deputies and Eureka Police Officers used unconstitutional excessive force when they applied pepper spray with Q-tips directly to the eyes of the eight nonviolent forest defense protesters in three incidents in 1997. Three of the activists were also sprayed directly in the eyes from inches away. Two of the young women were juveniles, aged 16 and 17.
Former Sheriff Dennis Lewis and current Sheriff Gary Philp also were found liable for causing the use of excessive force by setting policies allowing the unprecedented use of pepper spray on the passive demonstrators, who had locked their arms together inside metal pipes...
... The jury awarded nominal damages of only $1 to each of the plaintiffs, who made it clear all along that they weren't suing for the money, but to bring about a change of policy, to prevent the future use of pepper spray in Humboldt in the way it was used on them. They hope and expect that the verdict will reverberate far beyond rural Humboldt County to make it clear that police can not use the extremely painful pepper spray on non-violent people to coerce them to follow orders.
Lawyer Tony Serra called the verdict a "mixed metaphor." He said, "The verdict establishes now and forever that pepper spray applied in this fashion in these circumstances is excessive force. That will deter law enforcement officials throughout the country in the use of pepper spay and that's very good." But Serra said, "These young people suffered grievous mental anguish and should have been given a substantial amount of money to recompense them."
The defendants may be required to pay the reasonable attorney fees and costs of the plaintiffs, which may exceed $1 million for litigating the case through three trials and multiple appeals as high as the U.S. Supreme Court... |
http://www.nopepperspray.org/photos.htm
The campus police can be repetitively heard threatening to "tase" the victim if he did not stand up. Do "x" or your punishment will be "y". The student did not stand at the police's threat and was therefore punished with multiple jolts from the taser gun. In the video it appears that the campus police thought if the man was tased enough times (basically be put in enough pain) eventually he would comply and stand. This is a violation of his Civil rights, and is probably criminal as well. It certainly is outside of their power.
Police are given power to arrest, not to decide if a person is worthy of punishment, to decide what that punishment should be, or to carry out the punishment themselves. If a cop is acting outside of his primary duty (investigation/arrest), and especially violating criminal law and/or inalienable civil rights, a person does not have to comply with said officer. A citizen and/or victim is within his rights to resist such behavior or defend him/herself. In this case it's very possible that multiple 2nd degree assaults vs a non-violent suspect took place. Shouting is not against the law. These police had the suspect subdued physically and were given verbal indication of compliance by the suspect. Instead of professionally completing the arrest (carrying the man out of the library), they attempted to punitively goad the man into compliance and therefore violated his civil rights, and probably committed a crime.
Cops do not and should not ever punish (giving someone what they "deserve"). That decision is for a judge or jury and after a trial (due process) to decide. Punishments are handled by our corrective and punitive systems (not our investigative one). Yes it was a difficult situation, but cops are trained to handle just these types of scenarios as a regular basis. Right? Whether or not the cops were in a difficult situation they are to act within the law and as professionals. These cops will lose their jobs because they committed a crime. The victim will receive restitution (of some sort). This will be the outcome of this case and rightfully so. |
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MIMLaker
Franchise Player
Joined: 18 Jul 2001
Posts: 10015
Location: Los Angeles/ Alhambra, CA
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| Posted: Thu Nov 23, 2006 11:52 pm Post subject: |
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| Money$hot! wrote: | Much like Pepper Spray, a Taser is used to incapacitate a potentially violent suspect. A Taser is not and should not be used as a punitive tool. On June 4, 2006 a precident was set in Federal Court on a very high profile case where Bay Area police used Pepper Spray to punish non-violent protesters who would not get up and move. The Humboldt county Sherrifs dept. and the Eureka Police depairtment were found guilty of Civil Rights violations with their actions. The precedents set by this case will have direct implications on the UCLA Campus Police case.
| Quote: | An eight-person federal jury returned a unanimous verdict for the Q-Tip Pepper Spray Eight activists/plaintiffs, finding the County of Humboldt and City of Eureka liable for excessive force in violation of the 4th Amendment to the U.S. Constitution.
Humboldt County Sheriff's Deputies and Eureka Police Officers used unconstitutional excessive force when they applied pepper spray with Q-tips directly to the eyes of the eight nonviolent forest defense protesters in three incidents in 1997. Three of the activists were also sprayed directly in the eyes from inches away. Two of the young women were juveniles, aged 16 and 17.
Former Sheriff Dennis Lewis and current Sheriff Gary Philp also were found liable for causing the use of excessive force by setting policies allowing the unprecedented use of pepper spray on the passive demonstrators, who had locked their arms together inside metal pipes...
... The jury awarded nominal damages of only $1 to each of the plaintiffs, who made it clear all along that they weren't suing for the money, but to bring about a change of policy, to prevent the future use of pepper spray in Humboldt in the way it was used on them. They hope and expect that the verdict will reverberate far beyond rural Humboldt County to make it clear that police can not use the extremely painful pepper spray on non-violent people to coerce them to follow orders.
Lawyer Tony Serra called the verdict a "mixed metaphor." He said, "The verdict establishes now and forever that pepper spray applied in this fashion in these circumstances is excessive force. That will deter law enforcement officials throughout the country in the use of pepper spay and that's very good." But Serra said, "These young people suffered grievous mental anguish and should have been given a substantial amount of money to recompense them."
The defendants may be required to pay the reasonable attorney fees and costs of the plaintiffs, which may exceed $1 million for litigating the case through three trials and multiple appeals as high as the U.S. Supreme Court... |
http://www.nopepperspray.org/photos.htm
The campus police can be repetitively heard threatening to "tase" the victim if he did not stand up. Do "x" or your punishment will be "y". The student did not stand at the police's threat and was therefore punished with multiple jolts from the taser gun. In the video it appears that the campus police thought if the man was tased enough times (basically be put in enough pain) eventually he would comply and stand. |
Is this not open to interpretation? Does the video footage online cover the entire incident?
| Quote: | | This is a violation of his Civil rights, and is probably criminal as well. It certainly is outside of their power. |
Can you clarify your position on this? Do you believe that the use of a taser to enforce compliance with the instructions of a law enforcement officer constitutes a violation of civil rights in ALL circusmtances? Where is the line?
| Quote: | | Police are given power to arrest, not to decide if a person is worthy of punishment, to decide what that punishment should be, or to carry out the punishment themselves. If a cop is acting outside of his primary duty (investigation/arrest), and especially violating criminal law and/or inalienable civil rights, a person does not have to comply with said officer. A citizen and/or victim is within his rights to resist such behavior or defend him/herself. |
And how was the officers' request that the student produce identification (which he had on his person) to said officers in a university facility after 11 p.m. in compliance with longstanding campus policy a threat from which he had to defend himself?
Admiitedly, I am not well-versed in brutality/ civil rights cases. What is the standard by which the student's response should be evaluated -- i.e. by what standard should a jury or other trier of fact assess the situation and decide whether or not the student was justified in choosing not to comply with the officers' request?
Is it a reasonable person standard? A subjective standard? An objective one? A combination of the two?
Was this an unreasonable search?
Was the student technically in custody?
Was the student asked to go with the officer soutside the building, or just to leave the library? Did the CSOs ask him that beforehand?
| Quote: | In this case it's very possible that multiple 2nd degree assaults vs a non-violent suspect took place. Shouting is not against the law. These police had the suspect subdued physically and were given verbal indication of compliance by the suspect. Instead of professionally completing the arrest (carrying the man out of the library), they attempted to punitively goad the man into compliance and therefore violated his civil rights, and probably committed a crime.
Cops do not and should not ever punish (giving someone what they "deserve"). That decision is for a judge or jury and after a trial (due process) to decide. Punishments are handled by our corrective and punitive systems (not our investigative one). Yes it was a difficult situation, but cops are trained to handle just these types of scenarios as a regular basis. Right? |
How does the reported UCPD policy affect this argument, then?
| Quote: | | Whether or not the cops were in a difficult situation they are to act within the law and as professionals. These cops will lose their jobs because they committed a crime. The victim will receive restitution (of some sort). This will be the outcome of this case and rightfully so. |
You do pose a very interesting and thought-provoking argument. I am curious -- do you have any experience in law enforcement or litigation, either civil or criminal, plaintiff's/ prosecution or defense?
The pepper spray analogy is certainly intriguing, but aren't there civil rights cases more on point involving the use of tasers?
Even if there are no federal cases, do you know of any brutality cases at the state level involving police use of tasers?
MIM
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