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TACH
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 Posted: Mon Nov 27, 2006 1:03 pm Post subject: Bachelor Party Ends with 51 Shots.... |
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| Quote: | Police fired an estimated 50 rounds at the groom, Sean Bell, 23, and two other unarmed men in a car early Saturday, hours before he was to have married the mother of his two children.
Five officers were placed on paid administrative leave and stripped of their guns, said Paul Browne, chief spokesman for the NYPD. Police and prosecutors promised a full investigation. |
| Quote: | Kelly has said police shot at the car after it drove forward and struck an undercover officer and an unmarked police minivan. The information was based on interviews with witnesses and two officers who did not fire their weapons, he said.
However, Trini Wright, a dancer at the strip club where Bell's bachelor party was held, told the Daily News she was going to a diner with the men and was putting her makeup bag in the trunk of their car when the police minivan appeared.
"The minivan came around the corner and smashed into their car. And they (the police) jumped out shooting," Wright, 28, told the newspaper for Monday editions. "No 'stop.' No 'freeze.' No nothing."
Kelly had said Saturday it was too early to say whether the shooting was justified. He said it was unclear whether the officers, who were in plain clothes, identified themselves before firing. |
| Quote: | The shootings occurred after 4 a.m. Saturday outside the Kalua Cabaret in Queens. Kelly said the confrontation stemmed from an undercover operation by seven officers investigating the club.
Bell was struck twice. Joseph Guzman, 31, was shot at least 11 times, and Trent Benefield, 23, was hit three times. Guzman was in critical condition Monday and Benefield was stable.
The officers' shots struck the men's car 21 times. They also hit nearby homes and shattered windows at a train station, though no residents were injured.
Police thought one of the men in the car might have had a gun, but investigators found no weapons. It was unclear what prompted police to open fire, Kelly said.
According to Kelly, the groom was involved in a verbal dispute outside the club, and one of his friends referred to a gun.
An undercover officer walked closely behind Bell and his friends as they headed for their car. As he walked toward the front of the vehicle, the car drove forward, striking the officer and minivan, Kelly said.
That officer was apparently the first to open fire, Kelly said. He had served on the force for five years. One 12-year veteran fired his weapon 31 times, emptying two full magazines, Kelly said. |
STORY |
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20,000
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| Posted: Mon Nov 27, 2006 1:32 pm Post subject: |
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Earlier today Michael Bloomberg (NYC mayor, for those who don't know) came out and spoke against this shooting. Here is the link:
NY Times: Bloomberg says shooting was 'excessive'
EDIT: some quotes:
| Quote: | Saying he did not want to jump to a conclusion in a case that is still under investigation, the mayor nonetheless used words like “unacceptable,” “inexplicable” and “deeply disturbing” to describe the shooting outside a nightclub early Saturday. Asked if he was referring to the number of shots fired by police, the mayor said he was.
He described the three men as “victims” and said there was no evidence that any of them did anything wrong before the confrontation with police. The man who died, Sean Bell, 23, was to be married on Saturday. |
| Quote: | Mr. Bloomberg expressed confidence in Police Commissioner Raymond W. Kelly and said he expected to keep Mr. Kelly in his job for the rest of his term as mayor.
Standing alongside Mr. Bloomberg, Mr. Kelly confirmed that it was against department policy to shoot at a moving vehicle if there is no other threat to police. Most accounts of the incident say the shooting broke out after a plainclothes police officer tried to stop a car containing the three men.
Mr. Kelly said “we have a policy against using deadly force if the vehicle is the only force” involved. Mr. Kelly said the number of incidents of police shooting had increased this year to 111 from 105 last year, but said they were far below the level of a decade ago.
He also said police are trained not to fire repeatedly with their automatic pistols. Police are instructed to fire three shots, if needed, and then stop shooting and assess the effect of the previous rounds. Police have said that five officers discharged their weapons Saturday morning, and a total of 50 shots were fired. |
| Quote: | Bishop Lester Williams, the minister who was to have performed the wedding of Mr. Bell, said that there was a “grave crisis” of confidence in the police in his southeast Queens community, and that there had been no improvement in police-community relations since the height of tensions during the years when Rudolph W. Giuliani was mayor.
“It’s little Iraq, I’m sorry, especially toward the blacks in the community,” he said before attending the meeting. “We don’t feel protected.” |
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TACH
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| Posted: Mon Nov 27, 2006 1:55 pm Post subject: |
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| encina1 wrote: | Earlier today Michael Bloomberg (NYC mayor, for those who don't know) came out and spoke against this shooting. Here is the link:
NY Times: Bloomberg says shooting was 'excessive'
EDIT: some quotes:
| Quote: | Saying he did not want to jump to a conclusion in a case that is still under investigation, the mayor nonetheless used words like “unacceptable,” “inexplicable” and “deeply disturbing” to describe the shooting outside a nightclub early Saturday. Asked if he was referring to the number of shots fired by police, the mayor said he was.
He described the three men as “victims” and said there was no evidence that any of them did anything wrong before the confrontation with police. The man who died, Sean Bell, 23, was to be married on Saturday. |
| Quote: | Mr. Bloomberg expressed confidence in Police Commissioner Raymond W. Kelly and said he expected to keep Mr. Kelly in his job for the rest of his term as mayor.
Standing alongside Mr. Bloomberg, Mr. Kelly confirmed that it was against department policy to shoot at a moving vehicle if there is no other threat to police. Most accounts of the incident say the shooting broke out after a plainclothes police officer tried to stop a car containing the three men.
Mr. Kelly said “we have a policy against using deadly force if the vehicle is the only force” involved. Mr. Kelly said the number of incidents of police shooting had increased this year to 111 from 105 last year, but said they were far below the level of a decade ago.
He also said police are trained not to fire repeatedly with their automatic pistols. Police are instructed to fire three shots, if needed, and then stop shooting and assess the effect of the previous rounds. Police have said that five officers discharged their weapons Saturday morning, and a total of 50 shots were fired. |
| Quote: | Bishop Lester Williams, the minister who was to have performed the wedding of Mr. Bell, said that there was a “grave crisis” of confidence in the police in his southeast Queens community, and that there had been no improvement in police-community relations since the height of tensions during the years when Rudolph W. Giuliani was mayor.
“It’s little Iraq, I’m sorry, especially toward the blacks in the community,” he said before attending the meeting. “We don’t feel protected.” |
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Bloomberg and Kelly seem to be on top of this... however, why is this still happening. |
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999
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| Posted: Mon Nov 27, 2006 1:58 pm Post subject: |
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 shot 51 times!!!!???
seriously.... if the court find these cops guilty of excessive force.... they should be put on trial for attempted murder and endangering the public |
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TACH
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| Posted: Mon Nov 27, 2006 2:11 pm Post subject: |
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| LALakers999 wrote: | shot 51 times!!!!???
seriously.... if the court find these cops guilty of excessive force.... they should be put on trial for attempted murder and endangering the public |
One dead from 2 bullets, one shot 3 times, and another 11... that's 16... They shoot worse than Sasha (sorry couldn't resist)...
But serious, they are lucky a 'stray' didn't kill an innocent bystander (aside from the person in the car)... |
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The Dagger
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| Posted: Mon Nov 27, 2006 2:17 pm Post subject: |
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| It was an undercover operation....supposedly dealing with drugs. They tried to murder a cop by running over him and two times smashed their car into the officers' cars. They had it coming to them. No fault in the officers who used deadly force in self defense. |
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TACH
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| Posted: Mon Nov 27, 2006 2:20 pm Post subject: |
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| The Dagger wrote: | | It was an undercover operation....supposedly dealing with drugs. They tried to murder a cop by running over him and two times smashed their car into the officers' cars. They had it coming to them. No fault in the officers who used deadly force in self defense. |
That's not what a witness said, and they did not have a gun. |
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20,000
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| Posted: Mon Nov 27, 2006 2:22 pm Post subject: |
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| The Dagger wrote: | | It was an undercover operation....supposedly dealing with drugs. They tried to murder a cop by running over him and two times smashed their car into the officers' cars. They had it coming to them. No fault in the officers who used deadly force in self defense. |
Two issues with this.
The quote above says police are trained not to use deadly force against a moving vehicle when no other force is being used against them.
Two, why were these people singled out? From what I have been reading, these were not the targets, nor did they have anything on them to indicate they were the targets.
Also, these guys were having a good time at a strip club, and so what happened next? Were the undercover cops harrassing them? If they didn't know it was cops, they may have gotten rambunctious or acted all tough, but it is still no excuse to fire 50 bullets at anyone.
Unfortunately, the NYPD has a history of using excessive force, and this just further taints the force, and makes communities less trustful of them.
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Sometimes courage is the quiet voice at the end of the day saying...'I will try again tomorrow.' |
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Money$hot!
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| Posted: Mon Nov 27, 2006 2:29 pm Post subject: |
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Undoubtedly there will be someone posting in this thread soon with the opinion that all the persons shot, beaten, electrocuted, or even killed by cops are at fault and must have been breaking the law because cops deal with the scum of the earth citizens each day, have a hard job that they are trained to do professionally, and are therefore excused from any liability from their own criminal actions. In addition I will inevitably be given the ":ro.ll:" emoticon for posting this. So to save them the effort.
:roll:
All people who get blasted, tasered, beaten, and killed by cops deserve it because a cop decided it needed to be done. |
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The Dagger
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| Posted: Mon Nov 27, 2006 3:33 pm Post subject: |
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| TACH wrote: | | The Dagger wrote: | | It was an undercover operation....supposedly dealing with drugs. They tried to murder a cop by running over him and two times smashed their car into the officers' cars. They had it coming to them. No fault in the officers who used deadly force in self defense. |
That's not what a witness said, and they did not have a gun. |
The witness was a stripper...riiight? Yeah, lots of credibility there. I'll take five cops word over a stripper. And I never said they had a gun. |
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TACH
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| Posted: Mon Nov 27, 2006 3:50 pm Post subject: |
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| The Dagger wrote: | | TACH wrote: | | The Dagger wrote: | | It was an undercover operation....supposedly dealing with drugs. They tried to murder a cop by running over him and two times smashed their car into the officers' cars. They had it coming to them. No fault in the officers who used deadly force in self defense. |
That's not what a witness said, and they did not have a gun. |
The witness was a stripper...riiight? Yeah, lots of credibility there. I'll take five cops word over a stripper. And I never said they had a gun. |
So,.. she was a stripper? And cops in NYC don't have a history of 'unloading' on unarmed people. The cops are no more credible than the stripper.
There are certain fact in dispute,.. however there is no dispute that 5 cops shot 3 unarmed people. And as stated before... "police are trained not to use deadly force against a moving vehicle when no other force is being used against them. " in NYC.
So how are the cops justified in unloading 51 + shots at these guys, who were unarmed? One dead, one shot 11 times... how in the hell did they have that coming? |
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The Dagger
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| Posted: Mon Nov 27, 2006 3:50 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | The quote above says police are trained not to use deadly force against a moving vehicle when no other force is being used against them. |
Uh, correct me if I'm wrong, but the moving vehicle ran over a cop, reversed ran into a police car, reversed and ran again into a police car. In my estimation that qualifies as "force".
| Quote: | | Two, why were these people singled out? From what I have been reading, these were not the targets, nor did they have anything on them to indicate they were the targets. |
Not enough information. But from what I hear from the grapevine is they were involved in a drug deal. So it appears that they were the targets. That also explains why they tried to murder that cop and maybe get away by ramming the police vehicle.
| Quote: | Undoubtedly there will be someone posting in this thread soon with the opinion that all the persons shot, beaten, electrocuted, or even killed by cops are at fault and must have been breaking the law because cops deal with the scum of the earth citizens each day, have a hard job that they are trained to do professionally, and are therefore excused from any liability from their own criminal actions. In addition I will inevitably be given the ":ro.ll:" emoticon for posting this. So to save them the effort.
All people who get blasted, tasered, beaten, and killed by cops deserve it because a cop decided it needed to be done. |
No, I don't believe that. I have been a victim of police brutality and I was 100% innocent of any wrongdoing. My best friend was also a victim of police brutality for asking why a cop threw an eleven year old boy up against a brick wall. He came away with a broken nose, I was lucky and just got false cracked about five times in the face. There are many many bad cops out there and they should be criminally prosecuted because that's what they are - criminals. In this case a cop could have easily been killed by a car that ran him down. Now, if someone runs me over intentionally reverses their car to possibly do it again, I'm popping off rounds like there's no tomorrow. I won't speak for you, but I will do what is necessary to survive. |
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TACH
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| Posted: Mon Nov 27, 2006 6:19 pm Post subject: |
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| The Dagger wrote: | | Quote: | | The quote above says police are trained not to use deadly force against a moving vehicle when no other force is being used against them. |
Uh, correct me if I'm wrong, but the moving vehicle ran over a cop, reversed ran into a police car, reversed and ran again into a police car. In my estimation that qualifies as "force".
| Quote: | | Two, why were these people singled out? From what I have been reading, these were not the targets, nor did they have anything on them to indicate they were the targets. |
Not enough information. But from what I hear from the grapevine is they were involved in a drug deal. So it appears that they were the targets. That also explains why they tried to murder that cop and maybe get away by ramming the police vehicle.
| Quote: | Undoubtedly there will be someone posting in this thread soon with the opinion that all the persons shot, beaten, electrocuted, or even killed by cops are at fault and must have been breaking the law because cops deal with the scum of the earth citizens each day, have a hard job that they are trained to do professionally, and are therefore excused from any liability from their own criminal actions. In addition I will inevitably be given the ":ro.ll:" emoticon for posting this. So to save them the effort.
All people who get blasted, tasered, beaten, and killed by cops deserve it because a cop decided it needed to be done. |
No, I don't believe that. I have been a victim of police brutality and I was 100% innocent of any wrongdoing. My best friend was also a victim of police brutality for asking why a cop threw an eleven year old boy up against a brick wall. He came away with a broken nose, I was lucky and just got false cracked about five times in the face. There are many many bad cops out there and they should be criminally prosecuted because that's what they are - criminals. In this case a cop could have easily been killed by a car that ran him down. Now, if someone runs me over intentionally reverses their car to possibly do it again, I'm popping off rounds like there's no tomorrow. I won't speak for you, but I will do what is necessary to survive. |
Word... what did you hear through the grapevine?? |
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LALfan4life
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| Posted: Mon Nov 27, 2006 8:03 pm Post subject: |
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They would be the stupidest drug dealers in the history of drug dealers if they were involved in a drug deal without carrying at least one weapon. Currently we know they didn't have weapons.
What we don't know-
Did the cops ID themselves before opening fire?
Did the guys in the car start running into the vehicles before or after shots were fired?
I will reserve judgment until these questions are answered. |
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Bergamotichek
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| Posted: Mon Nov 27, 2006 8:45 pm Post subject: |
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| Money$hot! wrote: | Undoubtedly there will be someone posting in this thread soon with the opinion that all the persons shot, beaten, electrocuted, or even killed by cops are at fault and must have been breaking the law because cops deal with the scum of the earth citizens each day, have a hard job that they are trained to do professionally, and are therefore excused from any liability from their own criminal actions. In addition I will inevitably be given the ":ro.ll:" emoticon for posting this. So to save them the effort.
:roll:
All people who get blasted, tasered, beaten, and killed by cops deserve it because a cop decided it needed to be done. |
And undoubtedly there will be someone posting in this thread making asinine comparisons to unconnected and completely different situations. |
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TACH
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| Posted: Mon Nov 27, 2006 8:55 pm Post subject: |
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More details:
| Quote: | A fear of guns triggers death
Both partygoers & police panicked by bullet threat
Sean Bell with fiance Nicole and their baby. Bell was killed by police early Saturday morning.
Everything from the number of shell casings around the car to the absence of a gun inside it to the witness accounts suggests the police officers who shot three unarmed young men early Saturday morning did so in the mistaken and panicked belief they were in mortal danger.
The same facts and statements suggest the three young men in the car who repeatedly tried to crash past an unmarked police van did so in their own mistaken and panicked belief they were in mortal danger. One was climbing into the back of the car when he saw a tall figure in street attire approach in the early morning darkness.
"Yo, my man, come here, my man, let me holler at you," the figure was heard to call out.
The tall figure was holding something black by his side.
"He's got a gat! He's got a gat! Be out! Be out!" the young man climbing into the car shouted.
The figure was an undercover cop, but by one witness account neither he nor his comrades announced themselves as police officers until after Sean Bell tried in vain to drive away and six to 10 shots were fired.
"That's when somebody started shouting, 'Police! Police! Put your hands out! Put your hands out!'" recalls witness China Flores.
The shooting only intensified.
"That's when all hell broke loose," Flores says.
One cop fired 31 times, but regardless of how he is ultimately judged by the law, a harsher public judgment should be reserved for the senior commander at the scene. This lieutenant is said to have been so certain he was being fired upon he ducked under the dashboard of his undercover vehicle while the cops he was supposed to supervise fired a total of 50 rounds.
Flores says a fourth young man who was about to join the three in the Altima dashed off, making a cell phone call on the next block. Flores also says that one of the three in the car, Trent Benefield, staggered out holding his right upper leg.
"He's shouting, 'Stop shooting at me! Stop shooting at me!'" Flores reports.
Flores says a shorter plainclothes cop kept firing at Benefield after he hit the pavement.
"[The cop] is telling him, 'Lay down! Lay down!'" Flores recalls. "The guy's already on the floor. He's shot."
Only after the last shot was fired did Flores see the tall figure produce a badge and affix it to his jacket. Thus ended a chain of events Flores had seen begin around the corner in the Kalua Cabaret a short time before, when Bell, Benefield and Joey Guzman got into a verbal argument with two Guyanese men.
Flores says a would-be gangster known as J-Rock sought to get involved even though he did not know either party. J-Rock supposedly intimated he had a gun, threatening to "pop off." The situation was clearly not what Bell had in mind for his bachelor party.
"He said, 'Let's be out. I'm getting married. I don't need this,'" Flores recalls.
As Bell and his friends departed, the Guyanese men followed and more words were exchanged in the foyer. The bouncer rose from his stool and broke it up, ordering them into the street.
By then, Flores was outside having a cigarette as they exited. He says Guzman raised a hand toward one of the Guyanese men with the thumb upraised, the index finger extended in either the suggestion of a gun or just a hip-hop gesture that often accompanies outsized threats.
"I'm going to f--k him up!" Guzman supposedly said.
Benefield echoed Bell's sentiment that the time had come to "be out" and the friends headed down to Liverpool St. Flores noticed they were tailed by a tall figure in a quilted jacket, jeans and tan Timberland boots who likely witnessed Guzman's gesture. Flores followed, watching the tall figure get on a cell phone, then climb into a Toyota Camry that rolled up 94th Ave.
The Camry turned onto Liverpool St. Flores did so in time to see the tall figure approach Bell and the others as they climbed into a parked Altima.
Then Flores heard Benefield shout, "He's got a gat!" A boast in a club, or a hand gesture, apparently made the cops fear the same as the Altima tried to flee.
"They must have got scared," Flores says. "They thought the guys in the car had a gun."
And the safest big city in America proved still so fearful of guns that cops who set out that night to keep us safe ended up killing an unarmed young man on his wedding day. |
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Money$hot!
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| Posted: Mon Nov 27, 2006 10:01 pm Post subject: |
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| JD wrote: | | Money$hot! wrote: | Undoubtedly there will be someone posting in this thread soon with the opinion that all the persons shot, beaten, electrocuted, or even killed by cops are at fault and must have been breaking the law because cops deal with the scum of the earth citizens each day, have a hard job that they are trained to do professionally, and are therefore excused from any liability from their own criminal actions. In addition I will inevitably be given the ":ro.ll:" emoticon for posting this. So to save them the effort.
:roll:
All people who get blasted, tasered, beaten, and killed by cops deserve it because a cop decided it needed to be done. |
And undoubtedly there will be someone posting in this thread making asinine comparisons to unconnected and completely different situations. |
When the reaction has been so consistent, the statement is hardly asinine. Not unless it hits home in some way. |
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LuxuryBrown
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| Posted: Tue Nov 28, 2006 9:13 am Post subject: |
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| The Dagger wrote: | | TACH wrote: | | The Dagger wrote: | | It was an undercover operation....supposedly dealing with drugs. They tried to murder a cop by running over him and two times smashed their car into the officers' cars. They had it coming to them. No fault in the officers who used deadly force in self defense. |
That's not what a witness said, and they did not have a gun. |
The witness was a stripper...riiight? Yeah, lots of credibility there. I'll take five cops word over a stripper. And I never said they had a gun. |
I agree with Dagger, because we all know cops don't lie and they never use excessive force on anyone without just cause. All cops are good.
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TACH
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| Posted: Tue Nov 28, 2006 10:13 am Post subject: |
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NY Times Slide Show of the Events as report so far
I don't know... if I was on a dark street, in Queens , @ 4am in the morning and some guy stepped in front of my car blocking my way, then only to see a Mini-Van pull up blocking the street in front of me and a car block the street behind me, after an argument in a club... I would be scared.
If the undercover(s) thought they were dangerous, there is no way you let them get into a vehicle. And if you do,.. you have to identify yourself as the police.
They are lucky they did not kill anybody living on that street, especially since over half the bullets missed the men and car... |
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Socks
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| Posted: Tue Nov 28, 2006 11:31 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | The officers' shots struck the men's car 21 times. They also hit nearby homes and shattered windows at a train station, though no residents were injured. |
| Quote: | | One 12-year veteran fired his weapon 31 times, emptying two full magazines, Kelly said. |
They blasted up people's homes. Can you imagine if they had hit someone?
One of these guys emptied a magazine, took the time to reload, and emptied another magazine. All while his fellow officers were also firing. Hard to believe there was any reason for him to do this. I have a tough time seeing how an officer can be justified in blowing through two mags at 3 guys in a car that quickly. |
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LuxuryBrown
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| Posted: Tue Nov 28, 2006 11:58 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | One of these guys emptied a magazine, took the time to reload, and emptied another magazine |
And that ALONE was the single most disturbing development in this case. They said dude squezzed off 31 shots? Come on. THAT'S ridiculous. If THAT isn't excessive then I don't know what is.
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20,000
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| Posted: Fri Dec 01, 2006 12:53 pm Post subject: |
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NY Times article
And the story continues. The police contend that there was a fourth man with the group, and this person had a gun.
| Quote: | Police have found a man suspected of fleeing with a gun after police shot and killed a groom hours before his wedding, though the man's lawyer said Friday that his client wasn't armed or directly involved.
Police said clues gathered during a raid on a Queens home suggested the man, identified by his lawyer as 27-year-old Jean Nelson, was with three unarmed men early Nov. 25 moments before officers fired 50 bullets at their car. Sean Bell, 23, was killed, and two men with him were wounded, sparking outrage in the city.
Nelson, who was detained Thursday but released, saw the shooting, his attorney Charlie King said. However, he ''did not have a gun, nor was he in the car as police have suggested,'' King said.
The first officer to open fire has claimed he followed four men to the car, where he believed there was a gun, but no weapon was found. Police union officials have suggested the fourth man fled with one, although the wounded men, Trent Benefield and Joseph Guzman, contend there was no fourth man.
A law enforcement official said Friday that investigators had not ruled out Nelson as being the fourth person. The official spoke on condition of anonymity because the investigation was ongoing. |
This is getting even sketchier. Are the police planting evidence or making things up? Or are the victims trying to get away with something and trying to just blame the police? Either one would not surprise me (yes, there are dirty cops, and goodness, there are people who lie).
But this is not about me or my opinions, but about the facts as they come to light.
And here is more:
| Quote: | An undercover officer has told investigators that another missing witness -- a man dressed in black and standing in front of a sport utility vehicle -- argued with Bell and his companions as they left a Queens strip club where Bell was having a bachelor party. The officer was part of a team investigating complaints about prostitution and drug dealing at the club.
Outside the club, the man in black reached into his pocket as if he had a weapon as Bell challenged him to a fight and one of the groom's friends said, ''Yo, get my gun,'' two law enforcement officials said, citing the undercover officer's account.
Officials said the exchange prompted a second undercover detective to follow Bell and three other men as they walked away toward their car, apparently suspecting the men meant to arm themselves and attack the man in black.
Moments later, the second undercover officer started shooting at the car when Bell, trying to drive away, bumped him and smashed into an unmarked police van.
Through his lawyer, the detective has insisted that he clearly identified himself as a police officer as he tried to stop them. He also has said he spotted Guzman, then sitting in the passenger seat, making a sudden move for his waistband before he and four other officers opened fire. |
So now the police DID identify themselves? Or again is this in hindsight?
But just because someone identifies themself as police does not mean they actually are. Three guys trying to act tougher than they really were who just got into a confrontation with supposed gangsters will probably be scared and try to get away any way they can.
My initial reaction is to side with the victims, because police are trained to deal with this thing, and so many shots fired is excessive. I'd ask why not fire only a few, but I have never been in the line of fire so what would I know?
But if the police are correct, and the victims were acting as if they had a gun, or the police were in imminent danger, then I can side with them. 51 shots is still excessive, but I'd rather know more about the actual facts of the case before judging.
_________________
Courage doesn't always roar.
Sometimes courage is the quiet voice at the end of the day saying...'I will try again tomorrow.' |
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TACH
Retired Number
Joined: 03 Nov 2005
Posts: 28461
Location: Chillin on the Delaware.. from the Jersey Side
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| Posted: Fri Dec 01, 2006 1:27 pm Post subject: |
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| encina1 wrote: | NY Times article
And the story continues. The police contend that there was a fourth man with the group, and this person had a gun.
| Quote: | Police have found a man suspected of fleeing with a gun after police shot and killed a groom hours before his wedding, though the man's lawyer said Friday that his client wasn't armed or directly involved.
Police said clues gathered during a raid on a Queens home suggested the man, identified by his lawyer as 27-year-old Jean Nelson, was with three unarmed men early Nov. 25 moments before officers fired 50 bullets at their car. Sean Bell, 23, was killed, and two men with him were wounded, sparking outrage in the city.
Nelson, who was detained Thursday but released, saw the shooting, his attorney Charlie King said. However, he ''did not have a gun, nor was he in the car as police have suggested,'' King said.
The first officer to open fire has claimed he followed four men to the car, where he believed there was a gun, but no weapon was found. Police union officials have suggested the fourth man fled with one, although the wounded men, Trent Benefield and Joseph Guzman, contend there was no fourth man.
A law enforcement official said Friday that investigators had not ruled out Nelson as being the fourth person. The official spoke on condition of anonymity because the investigation was ongoing. |
This is getting even sketchier. Are the police planting evidence or making things up? Or are the victims trying to get away with something and trying to just blame the police? Either one would not surprise me (yes, there are dirty cops, and goodness, there are people who lie).
But this is not about me or my opinions, but about the facts as they come to light.
And here is more:
| Quote: | An undercover officer has told investigators that another missing witness -- a man dressed in black and standing in front of a sport utility vehicle -- argued with Bell and his companions as they left a Queens strip club where Bell was having a bachelor party. The officer was part of a team investigating complaints about prostitution and drug dealing at the club.
Outside the club, the man in black reached into his pocket as if he had a weapon as Bell challenged him to a fight and one of the groom's friends said, ''Yo, get my gun,'' two law enforcement officials said, citing the undercover officer's account.
Officials said the exchange prompted a second undercover detective to follow Bell and three other men as they walked away toward their car, apparently suspecting the men meant to arm themselves and attack the man in black.
Moments later, the second undercover officer started shooting at the car when Bell, trying to drive away, bumped him and smashed into an unmarked police van.
Through his lawyer, the detective has insisted that he clearly identified himself as a police officer as he tried to stop them. He also has said he spotted Guzman, then sitting in the passenger seat, making a sudden move for his waistband before he and four other officers opened fire. |
So now the police DID identify themselves? Or again is this in hindsight?
But just because someone identifies themself as police does not mean they actually are. Three guys trying to act tougher than they really were who just got into a confrontation with supposed gangsters will probably be scared and try to get away any way they can.
My initial reaction is to side with the victims, because police are trained to deal with this thing, and so many shots fired is excessive. I'd ask why not fire only a few, but I have never been in the line of fire so what would I know?
But if the police are correct, and the victims were acting as if they had a gun, or the police were in imminent danger, then I can side with them. 51 shots is still excessive, but I'd rather know more about the actual facts of the case before judging. |
Definitely waiting for more facts to come out because this is the 3rd time the story has changed...
[url=http://www.nytimes.com/2006/11/27/nyregion/20061129_SHOOTING_GRAPHIC.html ]TIMELINE[/url]
Check out the times associated with the time line starting on slide two...
If they really thought these guys had guns and were a danger, then they should of been stopped as soon as they got outside, if not approached in the club!! You leave an individual you believed to be armed in a club for an hour? There's no way to you let them get into a car. By looking at the map... they could of stopped them long before they reached the car.... |
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shnjb
Franchise Player
Joined: 08 Oct 2002
Posts: 13320
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| Posted: Sat Dec 02, 2006 2:42 am Post subject: |
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| Money$hot! wrote: | Undoubtedly there will be someone posting in this thread soon with the opinion that all the persons shot, beaten, electrocuted, or even killed by cops are at fault and must have been breaking the law because cops deal with the scum of the earth citizens each day, have a hard job that they are trained to do professionally, and are therefore excused from any liability from their own criminal actions. In addition I will inevitably be given the ":ro.ll:" emoticon for posting this. So to save them the effort.
:roll:
All people who get blasted, tasered, beaten, and killed by cops deserve it because a cop decided it needed to be done. |
Awesome post.
As Borat would say, I like you. High five!
I'm a law abiding citizen and a hard working student.
I'm not a thug or a criminal.
But I used to speed a lot when I first got my license being a typical testesterone producing teenager.
And I was treated like a criminal everytime I was pulled over.
I absolutely despise the way these cops flaunt authority and this is just one of many examples of what happens when a citizen doesn't respond submissively.
In fact, they often shoot even when one is submissive, like what happened when that LA cop just went counter strike on a person kneeling down unprovoked and all.
don't these cops have anything better to do than catching "criminals" going 10 mph over the speed limit at 12 am or bust harmless college students having a party on the weekend?
They certainly weren't as willing to "do their job" when my wife was missing at night once, and I asked if they could assist me in any way.
I know their job is dangerous and all but so what?
firefighters and soldiers risk their lives while doing their duties too and yet you don't see them running over civillians with fire trucks or tanks.
These criminals in uniform who shot innocent people should be punished to full extent to set a precedent or were going to start seeing even more of these tragedies. |
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methdxman
Star Player
Joined: 31 Jan 2002
Posts: 6879
Location: Los Angeles/Barcelona
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| Posted: Sat Dec 02, 2006 8:20 am Post subject: |
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| Cops = pigs. |
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