Posted: Mon Feb 05, 2007 11:34 pm Post subject: Why is there no Japanese car icon? (ranting on Honda inside)
GM has the Vette. Ford has the Stang. Porsche is synomous with 911. Ferrari has its V12.
But ever ask yourself what is the defining icon for any of the big Japanese makes such as Toytota, Honda, Nissan?
What makes me kind of sad is that while the Japanese manufacturers do have the capacacity and economics to make a marque car to pin their company on, but more often than not, Japanese decision boils down to just a business decision.
For awhile, Toyota and Nissan and Mitsu gave us the various of the 3.0L twin turbo cars, but as we all know by now, they all have disappeared.
And when Honda introduced its NSX, I thought, ok maybe this time perhaps Honda can actually make the NSX not only become an icon for Honda, but for the whole of Japan as well. And I had strong hope because Honda, unlike Toyota and Nissan, actually has a passion for racing for the sake of racing and for the sake of exploring and perfecting technology through its racing developement program. Honda has its Formula 1 and MotoGP programs, so you would think that Honda knows what's its like to have an iconoclastic car in its stable.
And I (and probabably every Honda loyalist out there) was waiting to see what the next NSX would be. Everybody was expecting a mid-engined V-10 car, well built, precise handling, and with power somewhere north of 400 hp, and would give every Porsche and Ferrari a run for its money.
But instead, what do get? A freakin front-engined with a V-10. Who is Honda kidding? So this is the NSX replacement after all this anticipation? What kind of BS is this? I'm very dissapointed in Honda. It looks like Honda prefers to enter the "ultra luxury sport GT" market by going with a front-engined 5.0L V-10 car.
But if you're a buyer, why would you buy this Honda? Price would be in the 6-figure. But what heritage does it have really? All the Porsches 911s, Ferrari, Vettes, Stangs, have heritages and history. This new Honda is just another transient,expensive toy for the richman. In 10 years, Honda will probably end this car heritage like it did NSX.
Oh and Lexus is also planning to enter the same ultra-luxo-sedan market too with its upcoming "F" supercar. I probably give this Lexus a 10 year lifespan too before Toyota will pull the plug. If sales sag, Toyota might euthanise it even sooner.
Seriously, Japanese are great businessmen, but I get the feeling that the lack a sense of tradition. They just don't seem to stick to anything long enough to build tradition at all. Honda has a killer product on their hands in the mid-engined NSX, a car that people were willing to overpay for it, but now they have decided to give us another "rich old man" car. BS. I'll say it right now, Honda won't have the same success with their new rich-old-man car as they did with the NSX, because I think the rich old men tend to to for the Euro brands like Benz, Bimmer, Audi, and not for some Japanese copycat.
Joined: 10 Apr 2001 Posts: 65135 Location: Orange County, CA
Posted: Tue Feb 06, 2007 6:55 am Post subject:
It's a bit ironic in the sense that the Japanese haven't built a true sense of tradition when it comes to the automotive world.
What we consider classics, Vettes, Stangs, now Vipers, etc... the Japanese may consider the same with Corollas, Camrys, etc.
Japanese cars tend to lack character.
However, they also know what a quality product is. That's actually why consumers will go to the Japanese brand. You really don't want to know the maintenance schedule of a Ferrari or hell, even an Evo can be quite expensive.
But when it comes to Honda and Toyota sports cars, they're just as reliable as their sedan counterparts. That's why they go to them.
Sports cars can be a vastly losing proposition, which is exactly why it's hardly sought by japanese manufacturer. Honda made the NSX last 15 years with few changes. Mazda had to drop their Rx-7 because of changing emission standards. Hell, I'm already ticked Toyota dropped the MR2 program. Honda has had the S2000 for how long now?
Bugattis may be $1.4million dollars, but it cost VW $5million to build each one.
Sure, it's a great demonstration of technical and engineering genius, but do you really think Bugatti and VW have vastly changed the goodwill of their customers because of that demonstration? No.
The Japanese markets have stuck to their guns with their philosophy. If sports cars sold like family cars, you'd bet they'd switch.
But they're not losing out in the real world. Toyota #1. Honda #2. The sports cars are a priority but not the most important project. The cash cows of interior room, reliability, and hybrid power are. _________________ Resident Car Nut.
I'd say Honda considers its Accord fairly iconic, even though it may not be sexy. Mazda has the Miata. Nissan has the Z. Toyota doesn't really have one outside of their Corollas and Camrys.
I do find it amusing that you say the Japanese don't have a sense of tradition. That might be the funniest thing I've read here in a long time. _________________ Game recognize game, Granddad. - Riley Freeman, The Boondocks
Joined: 03 Nov 2005 Posts: 28461 Location: Chillin on the Delaware.. from the Jersey Side
Posted: Tue Feb 06, 2007 7:45 am Post subject:
The Z comes to mind when I think of Japanese sports cars (but I'm biased, I've always loved the Z,.. going back to the 280ZX). The car in some form or fashion has been around since 1970? The 4th generation is my fav...
Joined: 03 Nov 2005 Posts: 28461 Location: Chillin on the Delaware.. from the Jersey Side
Posted: Tue Feb 06, 2007 7:48 am Post subject:
Exick wrote:
I'd say Honda considers its Accord fairly iconic, even though it may not be sexy. Mazda has the Miata. Nissan has the Z. Toyota doesn't really have one outside of their Corollas and Camrys.
I do find it amusing that you say the Japanese don't have a sense of tradition. That might be the funniest thing I've read here in a long time.
Toyota had the Supra (very nice car).... and it will be back in 08... PIC - That looks badass!!!
I do find it amusing that you say the Japanese don't have a sense of tradition. That might be the funniest thing I've read here in a long time.
Not so much a sense of tradition along the lines of having cars with character, which was introduced in the first topic.
I know, but this quote "Seriously, Japanese are great businessmen, but I get the feeling that the lack a sense of tradition." is worded to sound more general, which I find amusing. _________________ Game recognize game, Granddad. - Riley Freeman, The Boondocks
I'd say Honda considers its Accord fairly iconic, even though it may not be sexy. Mazda has the Miata. Nissan has the Z. Toyota doesn't really have one outside of their Corollas and Camrys.
I do find it amusing that you say the Japanese don't have a sense of tradition. That might be the funniest thing I've read here in a long time.
I should have stipulated that I'm talking about the racing heritage, the hi-performace car heritage, where cars are bred on the track, and filtered down to the consumers. I don't mean to say tradition as in samurai codes and zen buddhism.
If you follow Formala 1 and MotoGP and Honda's history them (and Toyota and even Yamaha too, but more so Honda), you would understand my statement better. Japanese makes tend to enter and exit these series base on marketing decision, and then economic decision. Honda is notorious for this in F1. They once had a dominant engine in F1, then pulled out because of rule changed. Then they re-entered F1 again years later. Honda does this in Superbike too when Ducati was dominating, always threatening to walk away and leave the series desolated because they didn't like the rules. Japanese are notorious for this, and everyone knows it.
Meanwhile, the Italians are racing with the constant threat of bankruptcy and many have gone belly up. I'm sure every Japanese superbike owner love their bike and sometimes like to bash Ducati or Aprilla (mainly based on the bang-for-the-buck reason), but give them half the chance to own a Ducati, I don't think they would turn it down. If you're referring to the tradition of giving bland, generica, reliable, good-bang-for-the-bucks daily driver, ok I agree, but that's not the tradition i'm talking about.
The Ford Stang is in many ways a crappy quality car. Sure it has a good engine, but that's about there is to the Stang. Yet, you tons of Stang worshipers spending their weekend fixing that crappy quality car of theirs.
Now I'm not sure if Honda and Toy would be making money from their supercars. Honda was losing money on the NSX back then. Are Honda and Toy seriously expecting to make money from their supercars this time? or they in the ultra-luxo business more for a show? Wouldn't it be nice for Accura and Lexus owner to be able to see a supercar in the same dealer showroom? I reckone Honda and Toy are keen to want to bring out the image of "performance luxury" to their brands because for the longest time, this has been and still is the realm of the European makers.
Now I expect the Japanese cars to be a bit more reliable their Euro counterpats, but don't kid yourself if you think these Japanese supercars is your Civic or Camary here. Don't expect Billy Bob's Muffers or Jose's Body Shop is going to know how to fix the exhaust or fix that crack in the body like they could on your Civic and Camary. I wouldn't. I wouldn't even trust them for the oil change; god knows they could dent the body dring an improper lift (happens more frequently than you think). Many people who buys these 6-figure cars don't just look at cost of maintenance, they they probably want some tradition behind the cars too.
It'll be interesting to the Japanese supercars will sell though.
Nissan Has the Z and the Skyline
Mitsu had the GTO but their Icon is now the lancer and Eclipse
Toyota has the Supra in 08 <~~~(im eating crow on this) and the Mr2 will be back
Honda has the Civic and Acura will be back with a New NSX
Joined: 01 Feb 2006 Posts: 10761 Location: Bay Area, CA
Posted: Tue Feb 06, 2007 4:20 pm Post subject:
I know it's not what you guys are talking about, but honestly I find the old Civic hatchback iconic.
Practically everyone I knew back in high school had one and lots of people would fix them up and race them. Sort of equivalent - iconically - to mustangs and what not for american kids back in the 70's I think.
I think Lexus is the perfect example of creating a tradition. It came out in 1989. It had absolutely no tradition and was set to compete against Mercedes? I think most people would have bet against Lexus ever even coming close to the Mercedes brand. Almost 2 decades later and they are the best selling luxury brand in America. When you don't have a tradition, you start one. Toyota did it with Lexus. It is just unfortunate that their focus isn't on sports cars.
As a fan of Toyota/Lexus, I'm excited about their future. The F lineup is the first of it's kind from a Japanese automaker. And with Toyota and Subaru coming together, I hope to see them improve the performance of their cars. It would be great to see an IS-F with 400 HP and Subaru's All wheel drive system.
I actually think Honda and Toyota are playing it smart. They're not focusing on a halo car, but putting it all on family friendly transportation, like you guys said. I think we as automotive enthusiasts want them to focus more on that, but they are targeting the masses, not the enthusiasts. That's where the demand is and that is where they can make and sell tons of vehicles. That's why Toyota is going to be #1 and Honda is making huge strides.
Could they do it if they wanted to? Maybe. But it seems to be something they are not looking into. Why rush to bring in the new NSX when you could make a lot of $$$ by putting out another SUV?
I think the Twin Turbo Japanese sports cars of the 90's were just ahead of it's time. Those cars were expensive as well. That was part of the reason they weren't sucessful. But I think it had more to do with the audience at the time. I think cars such as the Supra (and a few others) would have had more of a chance to survive if they had come into the market later rather than sooner.
There was no Fast and Furious back then. I remember back in the 90's when kids were into muscle cars such as the Camaro and Mustang. You didn't really see modded Civic's like you do right now. The import tuner scene has grown 100x since the last Supra was shipped to the United States. I don't know if they would have survived onto 2007, but I think they would have survived into the 2000's.
So what kind of cars do you think will be the next big thing? Obvious it is still compact imports now, but what do you think the next generation will be interested in? In the 60's, it was muscle cars. And then you also have to remember the pony car era and now you have compacts. What's next?
Joined: 25 May 2005 Posts: 3008 Location: LakersGround.net
Posted: Wed Feb 07, 2007 10:09 am Post subject:
Quote:
The Z comes to mind when I think of Japanese sports cars (but I'm biased, I've always loved the Z,.. going back to the 280ZX). The car in some form or fashion has been around since 1970? The 4th generation is my fav...
AAAARRRRRRGGGGHHH.........DON'T remind me about the 350z. I just bought one around October and was hit by an old lady in December......The car was TOTALLED Lady had no license (only a mexican license) and NO INSURANCE!!!!
Joined: 07 Feb 2005 Posts: 2704 Location: Toronto, Canada
Posted: Wed Feb 07, 2007 6:40 pm Post subject:
Toyota's moving into Nascar, aren't they?
Still, nothing beats the Camaro! With the quality of GM starting to get back to where it should be, coupled with the launch of the next generation Camaro in the fall of 2008, GM will be in good shape to keep the number 1 ranking.
Agreed, Mike. GM (and Ford for that matter) do not need to concentrate on a halo car because with the trouble that they are in, they may not be in existence in the future.
I once had a 2004 Chevy Malibu as a rental car. And it was probably the worst car I have ever driven. The interior was made of embarrassingly cheap plastic. The car only had 3k miles on it and already had its share if creaks and rattles. The performance of the car was a shame as well. If you think the Camry is a boring car, drive a Malibu. You would think the Camry was a BMW or something. No exaggeration there. The Malibu is how you would want your minivan to handle. Besides money issues, I don’t know why people would buy a car like this. I’d take a Hyundai over it any day for the price.
Its not just cars like this. When I was looking for a luxury car, I checked out the Lincoln LS and the interior was also filled with cost cutting cheap plastic. It was better than the Malibu, which it should for the $20k price difference but it was also bad in a sense that this was a $40k car going against other expensive cars.
Instead of building a 360HP G8 and using money to develop a twin turbo Corvette Z06, why not start with the Malibu’s and Colbalt’s? There is no way around getting beat by Toyota. It is inevitable. A large number of their fleet is being sold to rental car & government agencies anyway, which is keeping them afloat. But reclaiming #1 could be possible if they had a change in priorities. I doubt it though.
Joined: 10 Apr 2001 Posts: 65135 Location: Orange County, CA
Posted: Thu Feb 08, 2007 2:01 pm Post subject:
Actually, I don't mind the G8 and Z06. G8 is based off the GTO and even a brand loyal consumer like me would take a good hard look at the G8 as a 4Door Touring car... with over 360+hp.
As for the Z06, they know they have a market for that as well.
Cash cows like the Malibu and Cobalts? Those were based off an older chassis. Personally I don't like either. Design. Use of cheap plastics to make up for labor costs.
If they really want #1, it really has to start with the fundamentals of their goals. Toyota and Honda have always been about Quality, Service, and High sales.
For automakers like GM and Ford, it's been primarily high sales, which has cost them the consumer market for about 50 years now. Even the cash cow cars, SUVs, vans, etc., don't resemble the high quality standards of foreign markets.
It's sad to think that within 20 years, Hyundai and Suzuki have gotten on the "quality" boat, yet GM automakers haven't been able to.
What's even more upsetting is that Ford could've retained a top 2 status if they actually had "remakes" of the philosophies and principles over in Ford Europe.
Bring that Fiesta ST, Focus, and other cars from Europe stateside, and they'd be selling a lot more cars. Better quality standards too. _________________ Resident Car Nut.
I just checked out more info on the G8 and its based off of one of GM's Austrailian cars. I thought it was an all new car. So it's not such a bad idea. I also like the idea of the Camaro, but they are waiting way too long to release the car. Although it will be successful early, I think it will just fizz out, like the Chrysler 300. I remember when those came out, seems like everyone bought one and slapped 22's on it. Now you could visit a random Chrysler dealership and literally find hundreds of them collecting dust.
But I think to be successful, you have to have a bread and butter car that people can rely on for reliability and good built quality. Ford and Chevy are niot good at either one of them. Instead of spending money on their mass mass production cars, they are spending it on trucks, SUV's and high end vehicles like the Z06.
I think their reputation is ruined. You have to start from the ground up. And that starts with building better low end vehicles. Like Toyota and Honda did in the 70's. Like Hyundai did in the 90's. Once you get the bottom, you slowly move to the top. Although I like the Z06, I don't think it does them any good, as a whole, to put forth more effort and money into it. They need to build a car for the average Joe. And the Malibu's and Colbalt's aren't the answer. If I were Toyota and Honda, I'd be laughing at those cars. A 1985 Honda Accord probably uses better build quality than a 2005 Malibu.
As for Ford, I do agree with Mike that they should bring over some of these cars that they have in Europe. The only problem I could see with that is will it appeal to the masses? Right now the largest market for cars is probably the 50-something crowd. The people that make the Camry and Accord the cars that they are.
It's going to be interesting. Although I've said negative things about the domestic brands, I hope they turn it around. There needs to be competition. Toyota and Honda aren't perfect either with their tranny issues. Its competition that has pushed Toyota and Honda this far. It remains to be seen if their quality and reliability suffer now that they are producing more vehicles. IMO they NEED Ford and GM to step up to the plate. It will push all automakers to make better cars for all of us.
Joined: 07 Feb 2005 Posts: 2704 Location: Toronto, Canada
Posted: Thu Feb 08, 2007 9:02 pm Post subject:
Check out the redesigned 2008 Malibu. It's worlds apart from the current set up and getting rave reviews. The new Saturn Aura is winning awards as well and the industry experts are noting the marked increase in quality and fit & finish of new GM products.
I think GM is going to be fine. It's Ford and to a lesser extent Chrysler that should be worried. Ford is living in the red and Chrysler is producing way too many of their cars to turn a profit.
Joined: 10 Apr 2001 Posts: 65135 Location: Orange County, CA
Posted: Fri Feb 09, 2007 1:47 pm Post subject:
Quote:
As for Ford, I do agree with Mike that they should bring over some of these cars that they have in Europe. The only problem I could see with that is will it appeal to the masses? Right now the largest market for cars is probably the 50-something crowd. The people that make the Camry and Accord the cars that they are.
Ford Mondeos, Focus STs, and Fiesta STs are far better than any FiveHundred/Taurus and US Spec Focus. If the Fiesta ST was over here, it could compete well against the Echos/Yaris's, and Honda Fits of the world.
Those 3 models are supposed to be cash cow products. They're all designed better on the inside and out, have better quality, and better performance figures.
And, while it wouldn't be a wholesale takeover of #1 or #2, at least it sinks into the consumer's minds that Ford is actually trying out there. _________________ Resident Car Nut.
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