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| Who was the best (G/SF) defender of all time? |
| Michael Cooper |
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42% |
[ 51 ] |
| Scottie Pippen |
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37% |
[ 45 ] |
| Chucky Atkins |
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20% |
[ 24 ] |
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| Total Votes : 120 |
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LA_Lakers_Rule
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 Posted: Mon Jul 25, 2005 6:38 pm Post subject: |
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elbonian wrote:
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voted for Atkins.
He is not the best on ball defender, but I have to give it to him for his team defense over Coop and Pip.
The way he plays strategic positional defense, forcing him man to blow by him into right into shot blocking monsters like Mihm and Grant. I've never seen a guy who could consistently funnel his man into a trap like that ever.
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Mike@LG
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| Posted: Mon Jul 25, 2005 6:42 pm Post subject: |
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Would it scare anyone that I think Kirilenko could be the best perimeter defender of All-Time if he remains healthy?
Man-defense and Team-Rover defense through the roof. Like Pippen, can basically shutdown half the court.
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1hu2ren3dui4
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| Posted: Mon Jul 25, 2005 7:02 pm Post subject: |
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| Mike@LG wrote: | Would it scare anyone that I think Kirilenko could be the best perimeter defender of All-Time if he remains healthy?
Man-defense and Team-Rover defense through the roof. Like Pippen, can basically shutdown half the court. |
nope. the fact that he was leading the league in blocks (not by a little either) from the 3/4 position was absolutely amazing. blocked bigs. blocked guards. blocked everybody. a one-man block party. and this without compromising his own man defense.
btw, i vote for pippen. pippen was literally a one-man press. coop had great man defense, but it seemed like pippen could guard a whole team. one man press.
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Voice Of Reason
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| Posted: Mon Jul 25, 2005 7:04 pm Post subject: |
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I'll believe in Kirilenko once I see him trap halfcourt like Pippen could. Teams couldn't even get the ball past halfcourt vs. the Bulls!
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Drifts
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| Posted: Mon Jul 25, 2005 7:20 pm Post subject: |
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| Pippen was better. I think Pip could've handled Bird better than Coop did. |
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Mike@LG
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| Posted: Mon Jul 25, 2005 8:19 pm Post subject: |
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| Voice Of Reason wrote: | | I'll believe in Kirilenko once I see him trap halfcourt like Pippen could. Teams couldn't even get the ball past halfcourt vs. the Bulls! |
The Bulls had far better ball-denial defenders than what Kirilenko has.
That comes with the trapping.
Put Kirilenko next to Bryant and perimeter D gets scary.
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KA_2
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| Posted: Mon Jul 25, 2005 9:14 pm Post subject: |
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AK47 is NOT that good of an on-the-ball defender, so I'm definitely not convinced he can reach anywhere near Pippen's level of defense.
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Normnix
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| Posted: Mon Jul 25, 2005 9:26 pm Post subject: |
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| Mike@LG wrote: | Would it scare anyone that I think Kirilenko could be the best perimeter defender of All-Time if he remains healthy?
Man-defense and Team-Rover defense through the roof. Like Pippen, can basically shutdown half the court. |
yeah it would. not because I don't think AK47 is a great defender.
But.... I don't think man to man he's as good on the perimeter as he's made out to be. He crossed up by Grant Hill....this year. Now grant hill is no slouch. Even after the injury. But if you're going to consider him the greatest perimeter defender EVER, that can't happen....not grant hill. Wade, Kobe, or Lebron? sure. But not Grant hill. |
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Normnix
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| Posted: Mon Jul 25, 2005 9:29 pm Post subject: |
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| KA_2 wrote: | | AK47 is NOT that good of an on-the-ball defender, so I'm definitely not convinced he can reach anywhere near Pippen's level of defense. |
Cosign. Not to mention Scottie's strength. AK is a superb roamer and solid on ball defender. |
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Muad'Dib
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| Posted: Mon Jul 25, 2005 9:38 pm Post subject: |
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Tough call. My heart says Coop, but my brain says Pip.
Remember, offensive styles have a lot to do with their defensive tendencies--we're talking about two completely different teams, with each player adapting their play to their own situation. I don't like this type of intergenerational comparison, there are just too many variables that don't correlate over time.
But believe me, that would be one hell of a defensive backcourt combo right there--Pip at the 1 and Coop at the 2. Put Stacey Augmon at the 3, AK-47 at the 4, and Zo (in his prime) at the 5 and watch the opposing team's worst nightmares realized. |
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Voice Of Reason
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| Posted: Mon Jul 25, 2005 10:10 pm Post subject: |
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Stacey Augmon?
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Mike@LG
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| Posted: Tue Jul 26, 2005 5:33 am Post subject: |
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| Normnix wrote: | | Mike@LG wrote: | Would it scare anyone that I think Kirilenko could be the best perimeter defender of All-Time if he remains healthy?
Man-defense and Team-Rover defense through the roof. Like Pippen, can basically shutdown half the court. |
yeah it would. not because I don't think AK47 is a great defender.
But.... I don't think man to man he's as good on the perimeter as he's made out to be. He crossed up by Grant Hill....this year. Now grant hill is no slouch. Even after the injury. But if you're going to consider him the greatest perimeter defender EVER, that can't happen....not grant hill. Wade, Kobe, or Lebron? sure. But not Grant hill. |
Every defender gets beat at one point.
You're isolating 1 play as if Pip and Coop were never beat before.
Hill just happens to have a great crossover and change of direction. Was this after Kirilenko was coming off of injury too?
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Muad'Dib
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| Posted: Tue Jul 26, 2005 6:23 am Post subject: |
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| Voice Of Reason wrote: | | Stacey Augmon? |
Yeah--you ever heard of him? |
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Normnix
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| Posted: Tue Jul 26, 2005 7:25 am Post subject: |
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| Mike@LG wrote: |
Every defender gets beat at one point.
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I realize that.
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You're isolating 1 play as if Pip and Coop were never beat before.
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no. If I were to use that one play to suggest that AK47 wasn't a great defender, then you could say that. I acknowledge him as being a great defender. Calling someone the greatest perimeter defender of all time is exaggerating and is left open for deeper critique.
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Hill just happens to have a great crossover and change of direction.
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Hill is not AI. AK getting crossed over and scored on by someone like Kobe, AI or players of that ilk is one thing. Grant will be 33 and played his first full season in 4 years. The greatest perimeter defender of all time is supposed to stay in front of him.
| Quote: | | Was this after Kirilenko was coming off of injury too? |
no. But as we all know, Hill was coming off of one.
AK47 isn't even the best perimeter defender in the league right now. All around defender? perhaps. But not perimeter defender. |
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Narigon
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| Posted: Tue Jul 26, 2005 9:56 am Post subject: There are more players to consider |
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The NBA has a long history of players who have proven to be defensive stalwarts.
If you've ever seen Sidney Moncrief or even Alvin Roberston, then you could say that those guys are as good if not better than Coop & Scottie.
Each were hellacious on-ball defenders and stole the ball as often from just covering as opposed to playing passing lanes.
If we went bigger you could say former Nugget/Sixer Bobby Jones.
Bigger than that you could say Elmore Smith or Nate Thurmond.
Sidney & Alvin though, IMHO they rate to be just as good Coop & Pip.
Nowadays I feel that the best defenders are Bowen, Wallace, Artest, Duncan, and Kirilenko. |
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DNA
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| Posted: Tue Jul 26, 2005 10:35 am Post subject: |
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Bruce Bowen should get more credit. IMO, he's the best positional defender in history, point blank. I mean, how often do you hear guys shooting 7/21, 9/24 against this guy. If you're an elite, he'll keep you in the low 40's, if you're not he'll keep you in the 30's.
I've never seen Peja had a good game against him. Wade shot 10/26 against him in the regular season. Rip shot 39% and scored well below his season average. Ray Allen made some incredible shots and was only able to average 21 and shot 43%, below his season average. Marion was simply shut down. I don't know about T-Mac and Vince's numbers but my guess is they're in the low 40's or even high 30's. I've also seen him switch to point guards like Cassell and Billups and shut them down when they were hot. Kobe may have done the best job against him, and he was rarely that scintillating.
Really, the only time that I've seen he's really abused was Kobe against him last year. However, the thing is the Spurs gave him no help at all, not even soft double-team help, which was dumb because you can always soft double anyone to an extent and recover without leaving guys wide open(and I bet the Spurs would have defended him exactly like that if they could play that series again.) |
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shnjb
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| Posted: Tue Jul 26, 2005 10:37 am Post subject: |
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| Normnix wrote: | | Mike@LG wrote: |
Every defender gets beat at one point.
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I realize that.
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You're isolating 1 play as if Pip and Coop were never beat before.
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no. If I were to use that one play to suggest that AK47 wasn't a great defender, then you could say that. I acknowledge him as being a great defender. Calling someone the greatest perimeter defender of all time is exaggerating and is left open for deeper critique.
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Hill just happens to have a great crossover and change of direction.
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Hill is not AI. AK getting crossed over and scored on by someone like Kobe, AI or players of that ilk is one thing. Grant will be 33 and played his first full season in 4 years. The greatest perimeter defender of all time is supposed to stay in front of him.
| Quote: | | Was this after Kirilenko was coming off of injury too? |
no. But as we all know, Hill was coming off of one.
AK47 isn't even the best perimeter defender in the league right now. All around defender? perhaps. But not perimeter defender. |
Even the best defenders have bad defensive plays, or even bad defensive games.
Whether Kirilenko was "crossed up" by Hill or not has little to do with Kirilenko's merit as a defender.
I'm not sure if Kirilenko is or can be the best defender of all time, but what he does is truly unique: an absolute terror on defense with his man-to-man defense as well as a staggering amount of blocks and a healthy amount of steals.
According to your logic, Kobe has been crossed over by the likes of Troy Hudson and has let Mark Jackson in his late 30s get past him many times... does this mean Kobe is a bad defender? Or that Kobe isn't as quick as those guys? |
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Normnix
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| Posted: Tue Jul 26, 2005 9:14 pm Post subject: |
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| shnjb wrote: | | Normnix wrote: | | Mike@LG wrote: |
Every defender gets beat at one point.
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I realize that.
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You're isolating 1 play as if Pip and Coop were never beat before.
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no. If I were to use that one play to suggest that AK47 wasn't a great defender, then you could say that. I acknowledge him as being a great defender. Calling someone the greatest perimeter defender of all time is exaggerating and is left open for deeper critique.
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Hill just happens to have a great crossover and change of direction.
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Hill is not AI. AK getting crossed over and scored on by someone like Kobe, AI or players of that ilk is one thing. Grant will be 33 and played his first full season in 4 years. The greatest perimeter defender of all time is supposed to stay in front of him.
| Quote: | | Was this after Kirilenko was coming off of injury too? |
no. But as we all know, Hill was coming off of one.
AK47 isn't even the best perimeter defender in the league right now. All around defender? perhaps. But not perimeter defender. |
Even the best defenders have bad defensive plays, or even bad defensive games.
Whether Kirilenko was "crossed up" by Hill or not has little to do with Kirilenko's merit as a defender.
I'm not sure if Kirilenko is or can be the best defender of all time, but what he does is truly unique: an absolute terror on defense with his man-to-man defense as well as a staggering amount of blocks and a healthy amount of steals.
According to your logic, Kobe has been crossed over by the likes of Troy Hudson and has let Mark Jackson in his late 30s get past him many times... does this mean Kobe is a bad defender? Or that Kobe isn't as quick as those guys? |
Read my post again. I think the word "great" was used in describing AK as a defender. AK47 is not even the best perimeter defender in the league. He will not be the greatest perimeter defender ever. He's still a great defensive player though. both statements are mutually exclusive.
I didn't use the grant hill reference to say AK was a "bad" defender. I used it to say he's not the greatest defender. I think there is a HUGE difference.
And don't get me started on Kobe's defense. lol |
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Normnix
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| Posted: Tue Jul 26, 2005 9:18 pm Post subject: |
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| DNA wrote: | Bruce Bowen should get more credit. IMO, he's the best positional defender in history, point blank. I mean, how often do you hear guys shooting 7/21, 9/24 against this guy. If you're an elite, he'll keep you in the low 40's, if you're not he'll keep you in the 30's.
I've never seen Peja had a good game against him. Wade shot 10/26 against him in the regular season. Rip shot 39% and scored well below his season average. Ray Allen made some incredible shots and was only able to average 21 and shot 43%, below his season average. Marion was simply shut down. I don't know about T-Mac and Vince's numbers but my guess is they're in the low 40's or even high 30's. I've also seen him switch to point guards like Cassell and Billups and shut them down when they were hot. Kobe may have done the best job against him, and he was rarely that scintillating.
Really, the only time that I've seen he's really abused was Kobe against him last year. However, the thing is the Spurs gave him no help at all, not even soft double-team help, which was dumb because you can always soft double anyone to an extent and recover without leaving guys wide open(and I bet the Spurs would have defended him exactly like that if they could play that series again.) |
they don't hear you DNA. There are a handful of really good defenders who don't get credit because they don't do much else on the offensive end. |
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Mike@LG
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| Posted: Tue Jul 26, 2005 9:25 pm Post subject: |
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I disagree about Bowen's defense. He gets away with a lot that goes unseen.
The same isn't said of Kirilenko and Ron Artest, who provide the same kind of man-defense without the cheap-shots. Straight up strong man-defense. No injuries. Great team-help as well (not a role Bowen is asked to do).
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Mike@LG
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| Posted: Tue Jul 26, 2005 9:26 pm Post subject: |
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On that note, I can't believe Cooper is leading this pole.
I think this just shows how underrated Pippen is as a player.
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Mike@LG
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| Posted: Tue Jul 26, 2005 9:27 pm Post subject: |
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| KA_2 wrote: | | AK47 is NOT that good of an on-the-ball defender, so I'm definitely not convinced he can reach anywhere near Pippen's level of defense. |
Have you seen him defend Bryant, Ray Allen, Tracy McGrady, and KG?
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hapn14
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| Posted: Tue Jul 26, 2005 9:29 pm Post subject: |
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Chucky Chucky Chucky!!! All D-Fense Team 1
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dontbreakmyballz
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| Posted: Tue Jul 26, 2005 9:35 pm Post subject: |
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| PopcornMachine wrote: | I remember Coop handling Larry Bird.
I guess most here didn't see that. |
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djb
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| Posted: Tue Jul 26, 2005 9:40 pm Post subject: |
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I think Rodman was a better defender than Pippen, just because at his size, he could still shut down anyone at any position, and he was the best rebounder of all time in my opinion, both offensively and defensively. And although Pippen was a marginally better shotblocker and much better in the steals category, I give Rodman the nod because he could intimidtae his man into missing a shot, whether he was 6'0 or 7'0.
Any one else agree?
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