He's actually very similar to Monk before his breakout last season. Same caliber of player. _________________ It was reminiscent of one of those Most Interesting Man in the World advertisements: "I don't always shoot 6-for-28 from the field, but when I do, I become the youngest player in league history to score 28,000 career points."
I don’t like this signing because I would prefer to split the MLE to a taller wing (Otto Porter) and a stretch 5. Walker is very redundant on a team with RW, THT, Reaves, Nunn who supposed would receive significant minutes next season. But this is based on the hypothesis that no trade goes through
You think Otto Porter would have signed for 1 year $3 million when Toronto gave him a 2 year deal?
Which stretch 5 would you have targeted for 1 year $3 million?
The logic of splitting the tMLE is flawed but the logic is Walker being the 100% wrong choice isn't.
I understand why some say splitting the mle is useless, at $6.5 mil splitting it is little more than the vet min…however consider this:
Thomas Bryant is considering options, if we still had our tpMLE we could offer him $3 mil, which is half a mil more than Toronto’s offer of $2.5. Not much I get it but half a mil more with a low salary could be the extra needed to entice a player to come to us. Plus, if it works we can then offer TJ Warren $3.5 mil and maybe get him on that type of prove it contract similar to Monk. (I know Monk’s was vet min, I’m comparing the prove it concept as both considered their value to be higher)
I agree that the Walker signing looks like Pelinka incompetence. Walker isn’t a player to be targeted in free agency, neither is JTA. They are guys that should be signed only after the players that are targets are gone, at the end, to fill out the roster. I wouldn’t even sign them until after targeted trades i.e. Kyrie.
By signing those players at this time; Walker-a 3 and D without the 3 or the D (stole that gem from a sports reporter) and JTA, trades and vet min additions are limited. For example, if we did a Westbrook trade where we added an extra player and then both Bryant + Warren wanted to come to LA for the vet min we wouldn’t have a roster spot to accommodate that. Pelinka put the team in that situation by signing JTA during the first few moments of the free agent period…a player that isn’t considered a capable defender or 3pt shooter. Then Plelika showed further incompetence by giving Walker the full tpMLE early in the free agent period as well.
It’s not as bad as MozDeng, signing those players, as soon as free agent period opened, for the amount…but it is enough for me, based on this and past questions, to now believe that Pelinka is not capable of constructing a team using the assets we have to give us a reasonable quality of competiveness that we could have attained with another GM. At the very least, we need a POBO or VP, whatever it’s called, to oversee Pelinka’s moves. And at the most…just move on from him.
From a value perspective, Walker is possibly the worst taxpayer mid-level exception signing of this offseason. Look at the other players who were signed with the taxpayer mid-level exception this offseason: Bruce Brown Jr., John Wall, Donte DiVencenzo, Danilo Gallinari, Danuel House Jr., Ricky Rubio, Joe Ingles and JaVale McGee. Those are all markedly better and more established players than Walker — players who have recently started and/or had prominent roles in playoff rotations, or are discounted because of a recent serious injury (Wall, Rubio and Ingles).
Despite back-to-back double-digit scoring seasons, Walker likely wouldn’t crack the rotation for any of the current West or East contenders.
A popular comparison for Walker has been Malik Monk, the Lakers’ reclamation project from last season who just signed a two-year, $19 million deal after a breakout campaign with the Lakers. But Monk was a better high-volume shooter and a more efficient scorer. And Monk signed for a minimum contract. Walker on a similar prove-it minimum contract would have made more sense. He’s shown little to warrant being valued the way the Lakers invested in him.
The Lakers needed a wing with legitimate size, and that player preferably being either a sniper or a lockdown defender. Their options were limited, of course, but it’s difficult to say that the Walker or Brown signings make them notably better on either end. They’re both below-average 3-point shooters, with each clocking in at around 34 percent for their careers (34.3 percent for Walker and 33.7 percent for Brown). They’re both on the smaller side, although their long wingspans partially make up for their lack of height. Walker is listed at 6-foot-4 (with a 6-foot-10 wingspan) and Brown at 6-foot-6 (with a 6-foot-11 wingspan).
Quote:
Walker, 23, is one of the more athletic and explosive guards in the NBA. He has a quick first step and is good at knifing his way through the lane to the rim, where he was an elite finisher last season (69.3 percent shooting within 3 feet of the rim). He’s a microwave scorer with sometimes questionable shot selection. He’s also a streaky jump-shooter who rates as a considerable negative defensively, which limits his fit in a backcourt next to Westbrook. His length can help him on closeouts and poking away live dribbles, but his awareness for navigating screens and his effort rotating are often lacking.
To be clear: There is untapped potential with both former first-round picks. Walker shot 33.2 percent on catch-and-shoot 3s last season, but he shot better than 38 percent on catch-and-shoot 3s in 2019-20 and 2020-21. Brown made 36.3 percent of his catch-and-shoot 3s last season, though he’s also had two seasons in which he shot worse than 32.2 percent (and one where he shot above 39 percent).
Splitting the tpMLE in half does seem pointless since it is roughly the vet min for a 10+ seasoned player (2.9m vs 3.25m).
The only major differences is how many years they can get on a deal and how they are valued in trades.
Vet min can max out (on a 10+ seasoned player) at 2.9m & can only be a max of 2yrs in length. In trades they are seen as 1.8m (2+ seasoned player vet min value) in outgoing salary and can be taken in by another team into their vet min exceptions without sending any salary back to match in a trade.
Half tpMLE of 3.25m can be up to 3yrs in length and are seen as 3.25m in outgoing salary and therefore cannot be traded into another team’s vet min exception. The trading team would have to salary match that value and can send out as much as 4.2m in salary for such a deal.
Anyways back to Walker and imho, it was not the best way in using our MLE. If anything, if our MO was to develop young players using Ham and our coaching staff, at least get dude on a multiyear deal instead of an expiring 1yr pact. Wtf is that going to do for player development? Unless of course we’re developing dude for another team. _________________ Not familiar with the salary cap/CBA rules & how it impacts our Lakers?
#GetFamiliar by CLICKING HERE!
Walker was pretty clearly a Klutch flex, just like with KCP, Trez and THT before. We’re not seeing anything different this off-season, Jeanie setting a cost controlled expectation (no 2023 salary) and Klutch using the available space how it suits them. There is evidence of how well run team do it all around the league. We’re over here in the Busch leagues. _________________ Austin Reaves keeps his game tight, like Kobe Bryant on game night.
Was hoping he’s a defensive stud that’s avg shooter
I can deal with average shooting, etc. on the offense end, but if you are a crap defender, then basically you are here to just eat some minutes for us in the regular season. Post season, you will be played off the court and have no value.
I have little optimism that the D will improve. It's not like Pop is looking the other way and you aren't being told things or aren't coached on that end.
He's going to have great moments for us, some great games...but I'm pretty leery about seeing improvement on defense. What is this, year 5 for him? We will see.
If anything, if our MO was to develop young players using Ham and our coaching staff, at least get dude on a multiyear deal instead of an expiring 1yr pact.
If anything, if our MO was to develop young players using Ham and our coaching staff, at least get dude on a multiyear deal instead of an expiring 1yr pact.
They blew it.
They did…and it started with a 19y/o THT along with a 25y/o Caruso in 2019. Inked both those dudes on 2yr deals when we had the means to go much longer. We were angling for Kawhi that summer with the max, so if we too heavy you know you gotta fill out the roster/margins with lengthy team friendly deals. Instead, what was the plan after the failed cap plan if 2019? Oh that’s right, the Giannis plan of 2021. And when that failed it became the 2023 cap plan. Sorry Reaves, you get a 2yr deal too.
And they’re continuing to blow.
They about to ink our current 19 y/o to a 2yr deal using the min exception, when we had the means to get him on a 3yr deal while giving Walker the remaining MLE of about 5.5m. What’s that, Rich? You want the kid to get a guaranteed 6.5m…okay that 2nd year of the remaining MLE will be partially guaranteed to pay Walker the difference.
I’m confident this FO will blow the 2023 “cap plan” as well.
#Faillacio
Blowhards keep wanting to big up their guy Rob & this FO cause they really do believe the stories. The 2023 cap plan is 🧢. We’re looking to go flaccid and closer to the cap floor in order to avoid the repeater tax. _________________ Not familiar with the salary cap/CBA rules & how it impacts our Lakers?
#GetFamiliar by CLICKING HERE!
They about to ink our current 19 y/o to a 2yr deal using the min exception, when we had the means to get him on a 3yr deal while giving Walker the remaining MLE of about 5.5m. What’s that, Rich? You want the kid to get a guaranteed 6.5m…okay that 2nd year of the remaining MLE will be partially guaranteed to pay Walker the difference.
I understand your logic about three-year contracts, but I'm not so sure that it's as simple as you make it sound. A lot of players and their agents would balk at getting locked up at the minimum for three years. Some players have gone for it, but others would take a pass on it. I have a feeling that a Rich Paul client would fall into the latter category.
Anyway, in our specific case, we needed the full taxpayer MLE for other purposes. The fact that we used it on Walker doesn't change that fact. If we didn't think that Walker was worth the full MLE, we shouldn't have signed him in the first place. _________________ Internet Argument Resolved
I understand your logic about three-year contracts, but I'm not so sure that it's as simple as you make it sound. A lot of players and their agents would balk at getting locked up at the minimum for three years. Some players have gone for it, but others would take a pass on it. I have a feeling that a Rich Paul client would fall into the latter category.
Anyway, in our specific case, we needed the full taxpayer MLE for other purposes. The fact that we used it on Walker doesn't change that fact. If we didn't think that Walker was worth the full MLE, we shouldn't have signed him in the first place.
Right, but i think vasashi's pointed out they're batting 0 for 3 (or is it 0-4?) on this particular stratagem while other GM's/teams have managed to pull it off. Now this could well be just their bad luck .. or maybe, just maybe ..
He’s a 19y/o looking to make his mark on the NBA and then earns the bag that way. A good negotiator inks the kid on a 3yr deal showing him just how much he could make with us after those 3yrs earn him bird rights with us.
Sorry, but disagree completely with a 19y/o 2nd round rookie holding any type of leverage in negotiating his first pro deal. _________________ Not familiar with the salary cap/CBA rules & how it impacts our Lakers?
#GetFamiliar by CLICKING HERE!
He’s a 19y/o looking to make his mark on the NBA and then earns the bag that way. A good negotiator inks the kid on a 3yr deal showing him just how much he could make with us after those 3yrs earn him bird rights with us.
Sorry, but disagree completely with a 19y/o 2nd round rookie holding any type of leverage in negotiating his first pro deal.
You're right. I was thinking about Walker.
As for leverage, all the player needs to do is say No. What is the team going to say, "three years or nothing"? Some players would go along with it. Some wouldn't. It's not as simple or as automatic as you seem to think. _________________ Internet Argument Resolved
I understand your logic about three-year contracts, but I'm not so sure that it's as simple as you make it sound. A lot of players and their agents would balk at getting locked up at the minimum for three years. Some players have gone for it, but others would take a pass on it. I have a feeling that a Rich Paul client would fall into the latter category.
Anyway, in our specific case, we needed the full taxpayer MLE for other purposes. The fact that we used it on Walker doesn't change that fact. If we didn't think that Walker was worth the full MLE, we shouldn't have signed him in the first place.
Right, but i think vasashi's pointed out they're batting 0 for 3 (or is it 0-4?) on this particular stratagem while other GM's/teams have managed to pull it off. Now this could well be just their bad luck .. or maybe, just maybe ..
Sure, it's been done. But when the taxpayer MLE is the only means to add players, and when the roster has a lot of holes, there is a question of priorities. We've depended on it to bring in players to address ongoing needs. Buying an extra year for Max Christie -- assuming he would agree to it -- is not a pressing need.
My issue with our use of the taxpayer MLE on Walker is that it looks more like another Rich Paul favor than a bona fide attempt to address our needs. It stings when Buha writes that "From a value perspective, Walker is possibly the worst taxpayer mid-level exception signing of this offseason." But let's assume that Pelinka made a good decision and that Walker is really worth the MLE. Trying to shave the offer by a million bucks would have been silly. _________________ Internet Argument Resolved
@AH: MaxC declared early for the draft bypassing 3 yrs of college ball. In doing so, when he gets drafted and refuses to sign a deal with us, we would retain his player rights till he was supposed to graduate (ie the 2025 draft).
I mean if you want to drive a hard bargain, it’ll cost you 3 years of pay, rook. You’re in no position to make demands there fella haha.
As for Walker absolutely demanding 6.5m (MLE amount). Not exploring shaving 1m off the MLE to get our rookie Max on a 3yr deal and having Walker on a 2yr deal where the 2nd year guarantees him 1m (ie getting paid 6.5m either way) would have been silly.
Anyways, like Buha @ yourself have alluded to, bringing in Walker for a win now team with Bron/AD on it is probably not the best way to use our MLE. If however, we value the kid and believe we could develop him, giving him just a 1yr deal also seems peculiar. _________________ Not familiar with the salary cap/CBA rules & how it impacts our Lakers?
#GetFamiliar by CLICKING HERE!
@AH: MaxC declared early for the draft bypassing 3 yrs of college ball. In doing so, when he gets drafted and refuses to sign a deal with us, we would retain his player rights till he was supposed to graduate (ie the 2025 draft).
I mean if you want to drive a hard bargain, it’ll cost you 3 years of pay, rook. You’re in no position to make demands there fella haha.
What kind of businessman would do something like this? It's ridiculous. _________________ It was reminiscent of one of those Most Interesting Man in the World advertisements: "I don't always shoot 6-for-28 from the field, but when I do, I become the youngest player in league history to score 28,000 career points."
@AH: MaxC declared early for the draft bypassing 3 yrs of college ball. In doing so, when he gets drafted and refuses to sign a deal with us, we would retain his player rights till he was supposed to graduate (ie the 2025 draft).
I mean if you want to drive a hard bargain, it’ll cost you 3 years of pay, rook. You’re in no position to make demands there fella haha.
As for Walker absolutely demanding 6.5m (MLE amount). Not exploring shaving 1m off the MLE to get our rookie Max on a 3yr deal and having Walker on a 2yr deal where the 2nd year guarantees him 1m (ie getting paid 6.5m either way) would have been silly.
Anyways, like Buha @ yourself have alluded to, bringing in Walker for a win now team with Bron/AD on it is probably not the best way to use our MLE. If however, we value the kid and believe we could develop him, giving him just a 1yr deal also seems peculiar.
No, that's not correct. You're getting away from capology and into my world now. A team must make a Required Tender. The Required Tender must be for one year. If the team fails to make a Required Tender, a second round draft pick becomes an unrestricted free agent on September 6.
Quote:
“Required Tender” means an offer of a Uniform Player
Contract to a Draft Rookie, signed by the Team, that: (i) on or before the
date specified in Article X is either personally delivered to the player or his
representative or sent by email or pre-paid certified, registered, or
overnight mail to the last known address of the player or his
representative; (ii) with respect to a First Round Pick, (A) affords the
player until at least the first day of the following Regular Season to accept,
and (B) satisfies the requirements of a Rookie Scale Contract set forth in
Article VIII, Section 1 or 2; and (iii) with respect to a Second Round Pick,
(A) affords the player until at least the immediately following October 15
to accept, (B) has a stated term of one (1) Season, and (C) calls for at least
the Minimum Annual Salary then applicable to the player. In addition, a
Team shall be permitted to include in any Required Tender an Exhibit 6 to
the Uniform Player Contract requiring that the player, if he signs the
Required Tender, pass a physical examination to be performed by a
physician designated by the Team as a condition precedent to the validity
of the Contract
Article I, section 1(ddd).
Quote:
A Team that drafts a player shall, during the period from the date
of such NBA Draft (hereinafter, the “Initial Draft”) to the date of the next
Draft (hereinafter, the “Subsequent Draft”), be the only Team with which
such player may negotiate or sign a Player Contract, provided that, on or
before the July 15 immediately following the Initial Draft (for a First
Round Pick), or in the two (2) weeks before the September 5 immediately
following the Initial Draft (for a Second Round Pick), such Team has
made a Required Tender to such player. If a Team has made a Required
Tender to such a player and the player has not signed a Player Contract
within the period between the Initial Draft and the Subsequent Draft, the
Team that drafted the player shall lose its exclusive right to negotiate with
the player and the player will then be eligible for selection in the
Subsequent Draft.
Article X, section 4(a).
Quote:
If a player is drafted by a Team in either an Initial or Subsequent
Draft and that Team does not make a Required Tender to such player, the
player will become a Rookie Free Agent on the July 16 following such
Draft (for a First Round Pick) or on the September 6 following such Draft
(for a Second Round Pick).
Article X, section 4(e).
As for Walker, I don't know why his contract was for one year, but it was. Guaranteeing him a million bucks in the second year is meaningful only if it is preordained that we're going to waive him. You're assuming that this could have been done differently. You may be right, or you may not. We may find out in the fullness of time. _________________ Internet Argument Resolved
@AH: MaxC declared early for the draft bypassing 3 yrs of college ball. In doing so, when he gets drafted and refuses to sign a deal with us, we would retain his player rights till he was supposed to graduate (ie the 2025 draft).
I mean if you want to drive a hard bargain, it’ll cost you 3 years of pay, rook. You’re in no position to make demands there fella haha.
What kind of businessman would do something like this? It's ridiculous.
What kind of businessman doesn’t understand leverage. Now, that would be ridiculous. Typically for a 19y/o who is about to make about 5m over 3 years via rookie min), followed by the potential to make 35m+ (25% max eligible on a projected 150m+ salary cap 3 seasons from now) using his full bird rights wouldn’t be playing hardball. That scenario vs about 2.7m over 2 seasons followed by the potential to make about 11m using early bird rights, is something you can entice the kid with to sign a 3yr pact vs a 2yr deal.
@AH: I know about the tender giving a team and player “at least” the minimum window for a team to make an offer and for that player to accept the terms of a contract. However, if the player does not accept coming to terms with the stipulations of the contract a team wrote up during that exclusive window, a new clock starts on how long a team can hold that player’s rights for in order to finally come to terms on a deal with each other before his rights can belong to another team.
Per Coon’s FAQ:
Quote:
What if the team and their drafted player can't agree to a contract?
The player's options are limited. What happens depends on a number of factors:
If the player is already under contract to, or signs a contract with a non-NBA team, the drafting team retains the player's draft rights for one year after the player's obligation to the non-NBA team ends. Essentially, the clock stops as long as the player plays pro ball outside the NBA. Players are not included in team salary during the regular season while the player is under contract with a non-NBA team.
If the player goes on to play college ball after he was drafted, then the team retains the player's draft rights until one year following the draft the player would have entered had he not declared early. For example, if a team drafts a college sophomore in 2017 and he returns to college and plays intercollegiate basketball, then they retain his draft rights until the 2020 draft. Note that the NCAA rules state that players lose their NCAA eligibility if they are drafted, so the player currently cannot return or go on to play college ball. This rule exists in the CBA in the event the NCAA rules ever change.
If the player was eligible to play in college before he was drafted but does not go on to play college basketball, then the team retains the player's draft rights until the draft the player would have entered had he not declared early. For example, if a team drafts a college sophomore in 2017 and he does not return to college and play intercollegiate basketball, they retain his draft rights until the 2019 draft.
For all other players, the team retains the player's draft rights until the date of the next draft.
I may be out of my scope, but I believe Coon has proven he isn’t.
As for Walker…yeah, I’ll try to do my part from here on out in bringing it back to the topic at hand…
I’m hoping the kid plays well for us…particularly this season, cause then it would validate the signing and the use of the only resource we were armed with in making a substantial FA signing. _________________ Not familiar with the salary cap/CBA rules & how it impacts our Lakers?
#GetFamiliar by CLICKING HERE!
@AH: MaxC declared early for the draft bypassing 3 yrs of college ball. In doing so, when he gets drafted and refuses to sign a deal with us, we would retain his player rights till he was supposed to graduate (ie the 2025 draft).
I mean if you want to drive a hard bargain, it’ll cost you 3 years of pay, rook. You’re in no position to make demands there fella haha.
What kind of businessman would do something like this? It's ridiculous.
What kind of businessman doesn’t understand leverage. Now, that would be ridiculous. Typically for a 19y/o who is about to make about 5m over 3 years via rookie min), followed by the potential to make 35m+ (25% max eligible on a projected 150m+ salary cap 3 seasons from now) using his full bird rights wouldn’t be playing hardball. That scenario vs about 2.7m over 2 seasons followed by the potential to make about 11m using early bird rights, is something you can entice the kid with to sign a 3yr pact vs a 2yr deal.
@AH: I know about the tender giving a team and player “at least” the minimum window for a team to make an offer and for that player to accept the terms of a contract. However, if the player does not accept coming to terms with the stipulations of the contract a team wrote up during that exclusive window, a new clock starts on how long a team can hold that player’s rights for in order to finally come to terms on a deal with each other before his rights can belong to another team.
Per Coon’s FAQ:
Quote:
What if the team and their drafted player can't agree to a contract?
The player's options are limited. What happens depends on a number of factors:
If the player is already under contract to, or signs a contract with a non-NBA team, the drafting team retains the player's draft rights for one year after the player's obligation to the non-NBA team ends. Essentially, the clock stops as long as the player plays pro ball outside the NBA. Players are not included in team salary during the regular season while the player is under contract with a non-NBA team.
If the player goes on to play college ball after he was drafted, then the team retains the player's draft rights until one year following the draft the player would have entered had he not declared early. For example, if a team drafts a college sophomore in 2017 and he returns to college and plays intercollegiate basketball, then they retain his draft rights until the 2020 draft. Note that the NCAA rules state that players lose their NCAA eligibility if they are drafted, so the player currently cannot return or go on to play college ball. This rule exists in the CBA in the event the NCAA rules ever change.
If the player was eligible to play in college before he was drafted but does not go on to play college basketball, then the team retains the player's draft rights until the draft the player would have entered had he not declared early. For example, if a team drafts a college sophomore in 2017 and he does not return to college and play intercollegiate basketball, they retain his draft rights until the 2019 draft.
For all other players, the team retains the player's draft rights until the date of the next draft.
I may be out of my scope, but I believe Coon has proven he isn’t.
As for Walker…yeah, I’ll try to do my part from here on out in bringing it back to the topic at hand…
I’m hoping the kid plays well for us…particularly this season, cause then it would validate the signing and the use of the only resource we were armed with in making a substantial FA signing.
@vashashi - I don’t want to simplify the argument of Walker was the best we could do. But play devil’s advocate with me, of the options available at TPMLE, Walker appears to be the best we could do. I don’t like the signing much either but I do view it from the angle of John Wall seemed to have his mind preordained to the Clippers for some time. Divencenso & Brown took better locales than us. I would have liked Divencenso but a guy coming off injury the way he did would much more likely go to the warriors than us.
Again, I could be wrong. I was hoping in a long shot we would have signed Cody or Caleb Martin or Malik. Feels like we settled here for a Klutch client with “upside” as a continued good will to Rich Paul. Feels like this signing is more about Lebron than our needs. I just don’t feel so far based on what we know that we had much better options than him. Which I know you’re going to say Rob put us in - which is accurate. But who else would you have preferred?
Keep in mind, I didn’t want Lonnie. Feels like the failure of last year turned Monk off from sacrificing the bag to prioritizing the bag above all. Could also be that he got dropped by Iggy Azalea 😂 _________________ Author of James Harden and the Strip Club
"The key to good decision making is not knowledge. It is understanding. We are swimming in the former. We are desperately lacking in the latter." - Malcom Gladwell
You cannot post new topics in this forum You cannot reply to topics in this forum You cannot edit your posts in this forum You cannot delete your posts in this forum You cannot vote in polls in this forum
