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Hector the Pup
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Location: L.A.
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 Posted: Sat Feb 04, 2006 6:50 pm Post subject: |
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Just as he is in position, he is in status.
He's a tweener. |
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Aeneas Hunter
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| Posted: Sun Feb 05, 2006 12:50 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | Wolfpac -- What matters is what fits your agenda.
Discarding anything that outs LO in a good limelight fits that agenda. |
Those comments are a window to your soul. You assume that everyone else is just as intellectually dishonest as you are. It doesn't matter to you that PER is a vastly superior stat to Efficiency, or that Efficiency is a junk stat. All that matters to you is that Efficiency supports your position in these threads.
| Quote: | | Wolfpac -- Keep it up. I know your kind of fan. They don't last long here |
I love it when people like you reveal your true colors. When posting on a message board becomes an important part of your self-identity, you've got a problem. You are not a celebrity. Your post count does not make you smarter or more popular than anyone else. Spamming the board with posts and stirring up silly arguments is not a valuable contribution to the message board community.
Sorry, bud, but that's the way it is. |
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Drifts
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| Posted: Sun Feb 05, 2006 12:54 am Post subject: |
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come on Rule, if Odom is not a role player, what is he? A superstar? The guy isn't even an all-star. Take a look a your post, it puts Lamar higher the Rasheed. Are you telling us that Odom is better than Rasheed?
There are too many aspects of the game that the box score fails to cover, sadly so does Odom.
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sodapoppenski
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Joined: 24 Apr 2005
Posts: 7364
Location: Washington, DC
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| Posted: Sun Feb 05, 2006 1:03 am Post subject: |
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| Aeneas Hunter wrote: | | Quote: | Wolfpac -- What matters is what fits your agenda.
Discarding anything that outs LO in a good limelight fits that agenda. |
Those comments are a window to your soul. You assume that everyone else is just as intellectually dishonest as you are. It doesn't matter to you that PER is a vastly superior stat to Efficiency, or that Efficiency is a junk stat. All that matters to you is that Efficiency supports your position in these threads.
| Quote: | | Wolfpac -- Keep it up. I know your kind of fan. They don't last long here |
I love it when people like you reveal your true colors. When posting on a message board becomes an important part of your self-identity, you've got a problem. You are not a celebrity. Your post count does not make you smarter or more popular than anyone else. Spamming the board with posts and stirring up silly arguments is not a valuable contribution to the message board community.
Sorry, bud, but that's the way it is. |
KA-2... if you looked back even just to the earliest part of this thread,
you'd see that Wolf isn't even altogether against Odom. He's just making
a logical point.
I've seen Wolf post on Odom alot of times, and he's one of the few on this
site who isn't either all over Odom's jock 8 days a week or ready to burn
him at the stake.
Is it maybe just a LITTLE possible that Odom isn't a savior, nor is he a
total piece of garbage?
All these people who want to either completely discard him as an NBA
player whatsoever, or treat him like he's a superstar - all just come
across like they're not all there.
There are "realists" (those who swear they're being realistic by chastising
Odom or the Lakers, etc)... and then there are people who are actually
just realistically grounded enough to use logic in making their points.
KA_2, I thought your first post was an good way to start a thread. I liked
the logic and it's interesting to see where Odom is on that list. But I've
seen a number of Wolf's threads before where he sees things the way
I do with Odom, that he's not a good 2nd-option, but isn't total garbage
and could be a great 3rd guy for us.
To me if you're not at least somewhere NEAR that opinion (i.e. Odom
doesn't even deserve to start, or he's an awesome 2nd-option) then
you're just thinking too emotionally and ignoring logic and what we see
on the floor every night. |
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LA_Lakers_Rule
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Joined: 23 Aug 2004
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| Posted: Sun Feb 05, 2006 8:01 am Post subject: |
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Drifts wrote:
| Quote: |
come on Rule, if Odom is not a role player, what is he? A superstar? The guy isn't even an all-star. Take a look a your post, it puts Lamar higher the Rasheed. Are you telling us that Odom is better than Rasheed?
There are too many aspects of the game that the box score fails to cover, sadly so does Odom.
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I agree with you that Odom is not a "superstar" and not even an all-star. But I don't think that just because a player is not quite an all-star that relegates him to that of a "role player".
In other words not all players who are not all-stars in the NBA are roll players. This is the way I see it, there are super-start, all-stars, very good players that just don't quite make all-star level, very solid impact players, average players and role players in the NBA. Certainly there is a lot of overlap I suppose and is certainly subjective.
A few example from my point of view:
1) There are a few super-stars i.e. Kobe, Duncan, Lebron, Amare, Garnett etc.
2) Then there are a number of all-stars who reach this level by getting voted onto the all-star game roster i.e. Brand, C Anthony, Billups, Wallace, Nash etc.
3) Then there are exceptionally good players who are not quite the level of all-star players i.e. Hinrick, J. Johnson, Gooden, D. West, Harrington etc.
4) Then there are the solid players who impact games regardless of the fact that they are really noted i.e. Wesley, Wilcox, Marshall, Camby, Jamison etc.
5) Then there are the average players who are generally all around good player who still often critical starters on a lot of teams. i.e. Jaric, Cassell, Tinsley, Mobley, M. Jackson, Hudson etc.
6) Then there are "role" players who support the superstars, all-stars and "very good not quite all-star" players. These players are at a similar level, imo as that of "solid" (above average usually) because what they often do is one thing exceptionally well. i.e. Bowen, E. Jones, D. Davis, K Cato, Croshere, Hunter, J. Jones, Harpring etc.
I wouldn't put Odom in the category of a "role" player and I certainly wouldn't but him in the category as a "garbage" player (not listed above) like some have done on this forum. It's all a matter of definition and certainly subjective, but I think it is fair to say that Odom is better than a lot of loggers think of him, imo.
I personally would place Odom in my category #3 above, that of "exceptionally good players who are not quite the level of all-star". That is certainly not a "role" player on my list, much less a "garbage" player as some suggest.
As far as Lamar vs. Wallace, I'd take Lamar over Wallace personally. I also think that Lamar rates higher than Wallace on a statistical level, but I will agree that this is debatable and well intended persons can rationally disagree on this point.
I would agree that Wallace in his prime is better than at anytime in Lamar's career, but I think considering age and expected improvement vs. expected decline in regards to both players I would go with Lamar. One thing to keep in mind, Lamar's stats are generally down a tad this year from the previous few years which has a lot to do with incorporating into the Traingle, which is basically new to him. Lamar's assists are up to what he usually does at the expense of other stats due to what is asked of him by Phil, imo.
Statistical comparison:
Lamar
PPG 14.0 FG% 46 3P% 34 RPG 9.40 APG 5.3 BPG .91 AGE 26 EFF + 20.29
Rasheed
PPG 15.2 FG% 44 3P% 38 RPG 6.60 APG 2.6 BPG 1.6 AGE 31 EFF + 18.13
_________________
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Good judgment comes from experience and a lot of that comes from bad judgment. - Will Rogers ...  |
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wolfpaclaker
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Joined: 29 May 2002
Posts: 58525
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| Posted: Sun Feb 05, 2006 8:43 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | Anyone who has studied PER and the NBA's efficieny ratings realizes PER is far more accurate in terms of offensive impact. The NBA's efficiency rating is a joke, it means nothing. |
Again, You want to only acknowledge stats that back your agenda up?
How's this?
LO's rebounding and assists are far greater than his matchup each night.
This at BOTH PF and SF. Look it up
http://www.82games.com/0506/05LAL10C.HTM
At SF (per 48 )
Odom - 7.7 apg 9.7 rpg Opponent - 7.0 rpg 3.6 apg
That's a HUGE advantage to the Lakers
At PF
Odom - 19.7ppg, 5.8 apg, 13.1 rpg, 51.3 eFG 20.2 PER Opponent - 17.8, 2.6 apg, 10.6 rpg, 41.8 eFG%, 13.6 PER
Odom is clearly a huge advantage at PF. Infact, he even has a huge advantage at SF over his opponents in rebounds and assists. At PF he is close to beating his opponent is every stat.
| Quote: | | BS excuse from a blind homer. What impressive moves have the Lakers made since Kupchak became GM? Payton/Malone falling into his lap and....what? |
Blind Homer?
I can call you a sorry excuse for a fan. Most would agree.
What has Mitch done apart from Malone/Payton?
Aquired Horace Grant in the biggest trade at the time. It solidified our PF position and Ho was critical defensively against Rasheed, Webber and Duncan that PO run in the western conference.
Lindsey Hunter aquisition for a IR bigman (Greg Foster). Hunter was part of the team that won the 3rd ring and played very good defense at PG (There's a reason Detroit has him now). Foster wasn't in the NBA for longer than a year after that trade.
Chris Mihm aquisition.
Smush Parker pick up.
Andrew Bynum aquisition.
That's a few impressive moves of the top of my head. Ofcourse Mitch had screwed up a few things. But you only focus on the screw ups.
| Quote: | | Jerry West built those teams (i.e. signing Phil Jackson, signing Shaq, trading for Kobe). Not Mitch Kupchak. Kid. |
When did I say otherwise? But who was the OWNER at the time? Who was the guy calling the shots?
West wasn't the guy that hired Phil. That was Buss' orders. Shaq and Kobe both wanted Jackson and Buss made it happen.
Again, it takes great ownership more than great GM's to have a great franchise. There are team with good GM's - but none of them have rings to show for it.
Yet, the Lakers have 5 rings to show for BEFORE West had the re-building process on his shoulders. The first championship core under Buss' ownership wasn't put together by West. How's that possible if the FO is as bad as you say?
| Quote: | | Yes, I know, thanks to Jerry West. Next. |
Bull.
Jerry wanted to draft Sidney. Buss drafted Magic. That's 5 rings right there that would have been screwed up had Buss not shown his vision.
So please. While I love Jerry West more than any Laker - I don't think it was him alone that brought rings. It was Buss moreso. Buss made the call on Phil.
West didn't want Phil. You know, the guy that led the Lakers to a 3 peat.
| Quote: |
You have no idea whether the Lakers FO has offered Odom in trade or not. Please stop pretending, it's sad. |
And you do?
If you can't see that the Lakers wanted to keep Odom last summer, then I don't know what to say.
They had an oppurtunity to keep a SF for less money. Yet they didn't and instead got a PF that allowed Odom to split time at SF and PF.
| Quote: | | Pacers insiders? lmao. |
Yes, and they are closer to the situation than you..
| Quote: | | He has also reported bunk trades before. Whether it's actually true is an entirely different story |
.
But I'm sure if he reported the other way, you would agree.
| Quote: | | I take it all into consideration. And in the end, none of it has confirmed to be true. You know it, you're just desperate to protect the piece of garbage 2nd option known as Lamar Odom. Almost as pathetic as you claiming the Lakers need a real coach to teach them "team defense" last season and that the Lakers would make the playoffs after Rudy T resigned, the Lakers were killed with injuries, and the schedule was a buzzsaw to end the season. All the facts were staring you right in the face then, and you still lost face. Predictably. You'll lose face again |
Same old stuff from you KA. You'll never have a real point apart from cheap shots at me.
| Quote: | | It is hard to be a Laker fan when the Laker FO has been so incompetant. I hope they turn it around. Probably when Odom gets traded |
Yeah, they're incompetent. Just like you were you are when try to analyze a situation.
I pity you as a fan. You must hate watching games and being a fan of the Lakers.
Knowing how much smarter you are and how incompetent they are.  |
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wolfpaclaker
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Joined: 29 May 2002
Posts: 58525
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| Posted: Sun Feb 05, 2006 8:53 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | Those comments are a window to your soul. You assume that everyone else is just as intellectually dishonest as you are. It doesn't matter to you that PER is a vastly superior stat to Efficiency, or that Efficiency is a junk stat. All that matters to you is that Efficiency supports your position in these threads. |
Wow, another personal shot at me.
From you and your boyfriend KA_2 - What else should I expect?
| Quote: | http://www.82games.com/0506/05LAL10C.HTM
At SF (per 48 )
Odom - 7.7 apg 9.7 rpg Opponent - 7.0 rpg 3.6 apg
That's a HUGE advantage to the Lakers
At PF
Odom - 19.7ppg, 5.8 apg, 13.1 rpg, 51.3 eFG 20.2 PER Opponent - 17.8, 2.6 apg, 10.6 rpg, 41.8 eFG%, 13.6 PER |
Have fun ignoring that.
| Quote: | I love it when people like you reveal your true colors. When posting on a message board becomes an important part of your self-identity, you've got a problem. You are not a celebrity. Your post count does not make you smarter or more popular than anyone else. Spamming the board with posts and stirring up silly arguments is not a valuable contribution to the message board community.
Sorry, bud, but that's the way it is. |
Yet another swipe at me
Atleast you're consistent.
I don't spam nor do I like these sort of agenda driven debates. You guys will hate, and hate and hate a player to death. That's why I counter that. If you think that I wouldn't trade LO for the right package - you are insane. I am more than willing to trade him because he's not a superstar. If you can get someone that will help you out more and is still in his prime - I do it.
As for the post count. Newsflash. I'm a Laker fan. I don't visit other boards like most people do. I have been here for YEARS as opposed to you. I do virtually all my online posting here.
If you have a problem with that - Suck it up. |
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Mike@LG
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Joined: 10 Apr 2001
Posts: 65135
Location: Orange County, CA
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| Posted: Sun Feb 05, 2006 9:07 am Post subject: |
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Well,
1. Efficiency has nothing to do with being an All-Star or a Role player.
2. Efficiency doesn't account for intangibles. Clutch abilities. How well a player can create a shot. Man defense. etc.
3. Efficiency doesn't directly indicate skill level. There are players ranked lower than Lamar on that list that are more skilled. See Sheed.
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I am not an economic advisor nor do I advise economic strategies or plans. |
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LA_Lakers_Rule
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Joined: 23 Aug 2004
Posts: 19482
Location: The X-Files
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| Posted: Sun Feb 05, 2006 9:17 am Post subject: |
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wolfpaclaker wrote:
| Quote: |
At PF
L. Odom - 19.7ppg, 5.8 apg, 13.1 rpg, 51.3 eFG% 20.2 PER
Opponent - 17.8ppg, 2.6 apg, 10.6 rpg, 41.8 eFG%, 13.6 PER
|
Wow...  ... Telling stats, I'd say... 
Quite interesting, especially for all the "PER" fans... :roll:
It certainly does appear that Odom DOMINATES his opponent in ALL categories.... 
_________________
Rule = win titles
Good judgment comes from experience and a lot of that comes from bad judgment. - Will Rogers ... |
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Mike@LG
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Joined: 10 Apr 2001
Posts: 65135
Location: Orange County, CA
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| Posted: Sun Feb 05, 2006 9:20 am Post subject: |
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^The best telling stat?
What was the number of wins the Lakers had last season with Odom at PF?
... Right....
Has it occured to you that when Odom slides to PF this season, it's usually against weaker competition?
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wolfpaclaker
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Joined: 29 May 2002
Posts: 58525
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| Posted: Sun Feb 05, 2006 9:20 am Post subject: |
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| LA_Lakers_Rule wrote: | wolfpaclaker wrote:
| Quote: |
At PF
L. Odom - 19.7ppg, 5.8 apg, 13.1 rpg, 51.3 eFG% 20.2 PER
Opponent - 17.8ppg, 2.6 apg, 10.6 rpg, 41.8 eFG%, 13.6 PER
|
Wow... ... Telling stats, I'd say...
Quite interesting, especially for all the "PER" fans... :roll:
It certainly does appear that Odom DOMINATES his opponent in ALL categories.... |
Well, that's the thing.
It doesn't look like he's dominating his opponent, but when you look at the production he has clearly outplayed his opponent on most nights.
But if you only care about points, Odom will always look like crap to you. |
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wolfpaclaker
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Posts: 58525
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| Posted: Sun Feb 05, 2006 9:23 am Post subject: |
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| Mike@LG wrote: | ^The best telling stat?
What was the number of wins the Lakers had last season with Odom at PF?
... Right....
Has it occured to you that when Odom slides to PF this season, it's usually against weaker competition? |
Come on Mike.
You are also ignoring that Lamar rarely got the ball last season and that the defense was similar to what it has been the last 2 weeks (with Kwame at 4)
Team defense has always been underappreciated. You look at the Lakers - they have Chris Mihm and Kwame Brown inside now.
Yet, they still can start off games giving 40 points in the 1st qtr.
Why? They don't cut of driving lanes and aren't helping each other out. This is exactly the way they were playing defense last season. |
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LA_Lakers_Rule
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Joined: 23 Aug 2004
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Location: The X-Files
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| Posted: Sun Feb 05, 2006 9:30 am Post subject: |
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wolfpaclaker wrote:
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Jerry wanted to draft Sidney. Buss drafted Magic. That's 5 rings right there that would have been screwed up had Buss not shown his vision.
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I do remember how Jerry totally favored Moncrief, but luckily for us the buck stopped at Buss's desk. I can vividly remember wondering at the time if Moncrief might be the better player simply based on my assumption that Jerry should be the one to know. It's not to say that Jerry was absolutely against Magic, but it was clear that he would have drafted Moncrief absent any outside enfluence i.e. Buss.
It is freightening to even consider how the Laker history would have been if we had actually passed on Magic in favor of Mondrief.
Sidney was a solid player, but the difference between the players is huge and we certainly would NOT HAVE all of the championships WITHOUT Magic. The entire Laker personna and history would be totally different, imo based on that one decision. Fact is Jerry was a great GM, but no better than a lot of other GM's in the league, imo.
I'm not interested in desparaging West, as he was my "favorite player" on the court during his career, so I won't touch on the number of poor decisions made by West as has already been documented time and time again, anyway. Fact is West has made ingeneous moves and bad moves just as any other very good GM has done.
The bottom line is as Wolf has suggested, Buss has had great insight as the Laker owner through the years and I'm willing to bet the future on someone who has essentially proved himself over time as Buss has.
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Good judgment comes from experience and a lot of that comes from bad judgment. - Will Rogers ... |
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TACH
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Location: Chillin on the Delaware.. from the Jersey Side
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| Posted: Sun Feb 05, 2006 9:33 am Post subject: |
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| Drifts wrote: | come on Rule, if Odom is not a role player, what is he? A superstar? The guy isn't even an all-star. Take a look a your post, it puts Lamar higher the Rasheed. Are you telling us that Odom is better than Rasheed?
There are too many aspects of the game that the box score fails to cover, sadly so does Odom. |
I'm one of the fans that has stated LO is a very talneted role player, and I still stand by what I've posted.
At the beginning of the season, LO's role was to be the second scoring option, along with being the facilitator. I think we all can agree he's not been consistant enough (especially as of late) to be the second scoring option (at least at this point in the season). Additionally, he's been struggling with the offense, he still not fully comfortable in the triangle (I think we can all agree on that as well). So what does that leave us, his defense, and the hustle stats (i.e. rebounding, assists, blocks, taking charges, etc.). IMO, his defense needs improving.
So that leaves us with his rebounding, assist and his presence on the floor as a starter. His rebouding is great, it's been a blessing. The assist are nice too, however he is here (at 11+ million per year) to be a second scoring option to KB8 and a facilitator.
LO is valuable to the team, there is no question about that. But at this point, he's shown to be a very talanted role player. Until he starts to understand the offense, and can be counted on game in and game out to provided offense, he's a role player, be it a very talented.
IMO, I think people of over-estimating LO's ability (meaning talent-wise, and MENTALLY). He not the next Pippen or Magic (as some have posted). LO's performance this year has been no different then his previous nine years in the L. So when he disappears for 2 games, why should we be surprised? He's been like this all his career. It's not like his game has grown over the past nine years. He's the same player the Clips drafted. I'm admit, I was down on LO earlier this year,.. but then I ask myself, why am I down on him... It's not like he was this great/all-star player prior to coming to the Lakers. LO would definitely benefit if the Lakers got a '2nd scoring option', because he's not it. That's not a knock on LO,.. I just think it's a fact. Miami had success with him (won some playoff games) because there were players there that took the pressure off of him... guys like Wade (love him or hate him), Butler, Jones. The Lakers do not have guys like that on their roster. I think because of the 'high expectations people have put on LO (I'm was guilty as well) is why he is constantly 'bashed' on the LG. LO performance or lack of (depending on what side of this debate you are on) is a more of symptom of this team then being just a LO sucks/it's his fault issue. |
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LA_Lakers_Rule
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Joined: 23 Aug 2004
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| Posted: Sun Feb 05, 2006 10:01 am Post subject: |
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Mike AT LG wrote:
| Quote: |
Well,
1. Efficiency has nothing to do with being an All-Star or a Role player.
2. Efficiency doesn't account for intangibles. Clutch abilities. How well a player can create a shot. Man defense. etc.
3. Efficiency doesn't directly indicate skill level. There are players ranked lower than Lamar on that list that are more skilled. See Sheed.
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1. So I guess Efficiency is totally useless...  Fact is it is a statistical tool, you may chose to devalue the stat, but it certainly does give at least some kind of idea how effective a player is.
2. No it may not address all intangibles, but it certainly does consider some intangibles. I think it is fair to say that no stat will address all intangibles, but again it does offer an idea about what a player can do.
3. Again, stats can always be misleading as we all know. So I suppose the NBA has no idea what they are doing when they use the stat. The fact is it has value, just as any other stat can have value. Placing all support on one or the other stat exclusively is ill-advised, but on the other hand to completely write off a commonly used stat is also ill-advised, imo.
As far as you assumption that Rasheed is "better" or more "skilled" as you say is debatable, imo. Rasheed never won any titles in Portland, so I think that some of the glitter about Rasheed could maybe just be the fact that he is part of a really solid team.
You can disregard my stats that I posted earlier:
Lamar
PPG 14.0 FG% 46 3P% 34 RPG 9.40 APG 5.3 BPG .91 AGE 26 EFF + 20.29
Rasheed
PPG 15.2 FG% 44 3P% 38 RPG 6.60 APG 2.6 BPG 1.6 AGE 31 EFF + 18.13
Which shows that Lamar is at the very least as good if not actually better than Wallace.
So let's look at some comparison using other stats (48 min prod by position):
L. Odom - 19.7 ppg, 5.8 apg, 13.1 rpg, 51.3 eFG% 20.2 PER
Opponent - 17.8 ppg, 2.6 apg, 10.6 rpg, 41.8 eFG%, 13.6 PER
R. Wallace - 20.0 ppg, 3.4 apg, 9.4 rpg, 51.4 eFG% 19.4 PER
Opponent - 18.6 ppg, 2.5 apg, 11.8 rpg, 47.4 eFG%, 17.8 PER
Again it is clear that Odom actually out performs Rasheed. And this is using the "PER" that so many think is a more accurate measurement of ability. Yes, statistics can mislead, perhaps, but by accumulating enough they do ultimately tell the facts in the long run.
I really don't think that one can insist how much better they think Wallace is over Odom and remain intellectually honest, imo.
Fact is that Odom is simply underrated on the board, nothing more, nothing less.
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Good judgment comes from experience and a lot of that comes from bad judgment. - Will Rogers ... |
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Mike@LG
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Location: Orange County, CA
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| Posted: Sun Feb 05, 2006 10:10 am Post subject: |
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More stats.
You can rely on stats all you want. But here are some facts the stats won't necessarily show.
Odom can handle the ball and create plays.
Sheed is a better perimeter shooter, post player, man defender, and team defender than Odom.
Period.
So what if he didn't win in Portland? He's got 2 with the Pistons now and was the last missing piece to get Detroit over the hump.
Odom is underrated? No. His entire career he's fallen short of fulfilling his potential. For a guy projected as a franchise player out of URI, he hasn't really improved statistically by much his entire career. What does that say about him?
As to why the NBA is using the stat, I'm sure it's to NOT determine who is a role player and who's a franchise player.
I wouldn't call Kirilenko a franchise player. He's one of the most efficient players in the league. Why isn't he a franchise player? Can't create shots well, solid, but not great playmaker, ... clutch ability? etc.
I just think it's the wrong context to measure player worth.
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LA_Lakers_Rule
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| Posted: Sun Feb 05, 2006 10:11 am Post subject: |
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TACH wrote:
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So that leaves us with his rebounding, assist and his presence on the floor as a starter. His rebouding is great, it's been a blessing. The assist are nice too, however he is here (at 11+ million per year) to be a second scoring option to KB8 and a facilitator.
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The perception that Odom is "overpayed" in accordance to his level of play has been addressed on this board and simply debunked!!!
The fact is that Odom is "underpaid" if one compares his stats to other players making similar money and the stats that those players put up.
Just check it out, without rehashing the list just one example is Miller who actually make more $ and produces less and the fact is you will find a number of others who are paid similar or more and will not put up to close to double/double figures on the court as Odom does, not to mention averaging over 5 apg.
In fact there is only one player in the league at his position that average better rebounding and assists stats when combinded and that is Lebron. Not even KG averages as many assists 5.4 to Garnett's 4.5. This speaks to the fact that Odom is certainly not over paid, imo.
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Mike@LG
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| Posted: Sun Feb 05, 2006 10:17 am Post subject: |
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[quote]The fact is that Odom is "underpaid" if one compares his stats to other players making similar money and the stats that those players put up. [quote]
That too depends on context.
Sorry, I think franchise players are worth the max. Odom hasn't shown that. Certainly doesn't have the impact of Ben Wallace, who is far under paid.
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LA_Lakers_Rule
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| Posted: Sun Feb 05, 2006 10:20 am Post subject: |
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Mike AT LG wrote:
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Odom is underrated? No. His entire career he's fallen short of fulfilling his potential. For a guy projected as a franchise player out of URI, he hasn't really improved statistically by much his entire career. What does that say about him?
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My point is that Odom is "underrated" on this board, for the most part, and I stand by that. The fact is more is expected of him on this board and he tends to get blamed for the Laker's failure to succeed. It isn't Odom's fault that the Lakers are not an elite team any more than it was Rasheed's fault that Portland was not an elite team all those years.
My point on the championships in Detroit, is that all players who are part of championships tend to be looked upon in more favorable light. Do you really believe that Odom would be getting bashed all the time as he does on this board as a "garbage" player for instance if the Lakers were winning on a more consistent basis.
I contend that you add a reliable 2nd option offensively and complement Odom with a similar defensive presence as Detroit has and you will not only have a winning team, but more important to my point you would not have all of these loggers on LG continually bashing Odom as an underachiever. The fact is if you surround Odom with some players that can put the ball in the basket and defend you would have a winner just as Detroit is now.
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Mike@LG
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| Posted: Sun Feb 05, 2006 10:23 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | Do you really believe that Odom would be getting bashed all the time as he does on this board as a "garbage" player for instance if the Lakers were winning on a more consistent basis. |
No, but you can't hide that some of Odom's mistakes late in games have been costly to the W/L column.
... Now you know why I've been contending for a traditional PG to run the triangle.
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LA_Lakers_Rule
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| Posted: Sun Feb 05, 2006 10:24 am Post subject: |
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Mike (@) LG wrote:
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| Quote: | | The fact is that Odom is "underpaid" if one compares his stats to other players making similar money and the stats that those players put up. |
That too depends on context.
Sorry, I think franchise players are worth the max. Odom hasn't shown that. Certainly doesn't have the impact of Ben Wallace, who is far under paid.
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One can always pick out exceptions to the rule i.e Wallace.
What I am pointing out is that in "general" Odom is absolutely NOT overpaid. If you take the majority of players that make similar or more money you will not find Odom out of line and in fact for the most part he could be considered underpaid.
So absent unique situations or might I say "anomolies" such as Wallace and maybe a handful of others, in general, statistically speaking Odom is not over paid.
There I go again with statistics... 
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RG73
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| Posted: Sun Feb 05, 2006 10:27 am Post subject: |
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| wolfpaclaker wrote: | ^
So you'll take the effeciency list that makes Odom worse but ignore the one that has him high?
Yeah, that's fair ....
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He's using the more sophisticated and statistically valid metric.
| Quote: | | Listen, it's up to the Lakers. They are the experts and what really matters. |
Their player evaluation expertise is questionable. Any number of fans over the last 5 years or so have picked in mock drafts better than the Lakers, suggested better MLE signings than the Lakers, etc.
What actually happens is up to them--how they are evaluating talent is pretty questionable.
That's worked out real well hasn't it?
| Quote: | | and haven't as of yet offered LO to anyone that we know of. |
Well some sources say he has been offered, others only that he was asked for. Hard to make definitive statements working off of rumors.
| Quote: | | Phil talks about Odom as a core player that will be there throughout his tenure. |
Why do you lie like this?
You know Phil has said that Odom cannot be trusted to on the floor in close games. Phil does not trust Lamar. He's said his confidence is too easily shaken. I've seen no ringing endorsements from Phil about Lamar of late. Tex certainly hasn't been kind either.
| Quote: | | Whatever you guys want to name him - or rate him - it's up to you. Fact is, LO is a Laker because the Lakers want him. |
No, it could be that LO is a Laker because they haven't been able to find a taker for him yet. Or that they haven't found the right deal yet. Unless your source is sitting in the front office when they have personnel discussions, you don't really know why LO is a Laker anymore than the rest of us.
You could be right. Their player evaluation skills suck, so maybe they do agree with you. Scary thought, but the evidence supports it. But, I'm agnostic as to why Lamar is still on the team.
| Quote: | | If they didn't want or like him - he wouldn't be here. |
Not true. See the aforementioned reasons he could still be here. One might also add the fantasy land hypothesis. It isn't that they want Odom for the long term, but that they overvalue him in the extreme. Thus, they think Odom will be their ticket to get KG or get Lebron in a S&T. And they think that maybe if they keep acting as if he's untouchable they'll con other GMs into thinking he's woth a top 5 player. That is kind of scarier than them just being bad at evaluating players. |
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LA_Lakers_Rule
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| Posted: Sun Feb 05, 2006 10:28 am Post subject: |
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Mike [AT] LG wrote:
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Do you really believe that Odom would be getting bashed all the time as he does on this board as a "garbage" player for instance if the Lakers were winning on a more consistent basis.
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No, but you can't hide that some of Odom's mistakes late in games have been costly to the W/L column.
... Now you know why I've been contending for a traditional PG to run the triangle.
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I think we can agree to blame Phil for this...
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Mike@LG
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| Posted: Sun Feb 05, 2006 10:31 am Post subject: |
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Underpaid? For a non-All Star at a relatively weak position? A non-franchise player?
Sure, he's skilled and deserves most of the dough... but when it comes to being an elite player with his paycheck? No.
I think Odom is an exception to the rule.... inversely correlated.
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Mike@LG
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| Posted: Sun Feb 05, 2006 10:35 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | I think we can agree to blame Phil for this... |
Or the entire management staff.
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