Didn't they fire the lead trainer because of all the injuries last year? What a difference it made.
Can not stop guys from running into your long limbs. AD's size and build makes him very prone to contact injuries as such. Think of Andrew Bynum or Kris Porzingis, or any other freakish long armed lean muscle player who plays an athletic game. Bynum as he became more athletic his injuries piled up. KP the same thing. Both those guys never even amassed to the players they should/could have been.
I'm grateful AD had the run he did. I'm not talking about him as some has been. He's still an all-star player. It just goes to show how fortunate we were in the championship season that AD remained as healthy as he did. And believe me, if this were Porzingis or Bynum, the dudes would be out for the season. AD gets hurt a lot, but he recovers like no one I have ever seen. He's a one of a kind athlete.
Remember when Kobe fell and ran into Bynum? Similar play into what happened to AD. Difference is Bynum was done for the season. AD is done for 2 months (I think he'll be ok in a month, but will need another month to recover). That's the difference in an all-time player and a guy whose career is altered by injuries.
Again, I don't know what happened that the stars lined up so well that first year, but we had incredible fortune that year. Since we've had the exact opposite it seems, just one injury after another to the 2 superstars. Guess the argument can be the last 2 years should be expected and the 1st year was special. I dunno, lets see what happens in year 4 of the Bron/AD era. So far 2/3 years AD/Bron have not been able to peak together.
that was much worse as Bynum was caught by surprise. AD had little time to react and he did lift his leg a bit. AD said he heard a pop which worried him, so i think he was relieved after knowing it was only a MCL sprain.
Meaning I can build a title contender around you. Not I’m not even sure I can get out of round one with a team built around you. Team’s primarily built around Davis have mediocre results, and that’s not top 10 impact. His durability has a lot to do with that. This is his 10th year and I bet half this board wouldn’t be confident in him getting a team past round 1, or even to the playoffs, as the focal point. Be honest.
The guys that have won it all in that role are considered the best of the best, historically. The five guys you mentioned are considered what, top 25 ever at worst?
I question whether there are even 10 guys in the league who you can build a contender around.
Is Doncic, for example, top 10? He's never been out of the first round. Or Embidd? He's never been out of the second round.
Again, I don't really see what guys like that have gotten "done" that AD hasn't.
And to be fair to AD, I don't know that he's single-handedly to be blamed for the Pelicans misfortunes. He was surrounded by really crappy teammates. When they managed to get to the playoffs, they were steamrolled by the Warriors.
So I am not arguing that AD is the guy I would want to build a team around to win a ring. I'm arguing that there are far fewer of those guys than you might imagine. There might only be 5 in the league at any given time who you can build a team around with confidence that you have a reasonable shot of winning.
that was much worse as Bynum was caught by surprise. AD had little time to react and he did lift his leg a bit. AD said he heard a pop which worried him, so i think he was relieved after knowing it was only a MCL sprain.
hindsight, that Bynum injury brought us Gasol.
Point is it's a contact injury. AD had the fortune of moving a little. These things happen. Contact is brutal. In AD's case, it seems thus far in his career he gets close to bad injuries but not so bad they alter his career or availability for the season. They are disruptive. Not season or career ending/altering. In the case of guys like Porzingis, Bynum, Oden etc. they either end their seasons, or alter their career potential completely.
That's my point. There's no stopping the injuries to big guys who are built like this who play the spot these guys do. What you do is hope that AD keeps able to sustain enough resilience they do not end his season or alter his career. At this point, I don't know what else to say, it's just rinse and repeat for us fans to watch.
Joined: 14 Apr 2001 Posts: 144696 Location: The Gold Coast
Posted: Tue Dec 21, 2021 11:38 am Post subject:
activeverb wrote:
Dreamshake wrote:
Meaning I can build a title contender around you. Not I’m not even sure I can get out of round one with a team built around you. Team’s primarily built around Davis have mediocre results, and that’s not top 10 impact. His durability has a lot to do with that. This is his 10th year and I bet half this board wouldn’t be confident in him getting a team past round 1, or even to the playoffs, as the focal point. Be honest.
The guys that have won it all in that role are considered the best of the best, historically. The five guys you mentioned are considered what, top 25 ever at worst?
I question whether there are even 10 guys in the league who you can build a contender around.
Is Doncic, for example, top 10? He's never been out of the first round. Or Embidd? He's never been out of the second round.
Again, I don't really see what guys like that have gotten "done" that AD hasn't.
And to be fair to AD, I don't know that he's single-handedly to be blamed for the Pelicans misfortunes. He was surrounded by really crappy teammates. When they managed to get to the playoffs, they were steamrolled by the Warriors.
So I am not arguing that AD is the guy I would want to build a team around to win a ring. I'm arguing that there are far fewer of those guys than you might imagine. There might only be 5 in the league at any given time who you can build a team around with confidence that you have a reasonable shot of winning.
Let’s look at this season so far. Giannis, Durant, Butler (?), CP3, Steph, Mitchell. Definitely not 10. _________________ RIP mom. 11-21-1933 to 6-14-2023.
Meaning I can build a title contender around you. Not I’m not even sure I can get out of round one with a team built around you. Team’s primarily built around Davis have mediocre results, and that’s not top 10 impact. His durability has a lot to do with that. This is his 10th year and I bet half this board wouldn’t be confident in him getting a team past round 1, or even to the playoffs, as the focal point. Be honest.
The guys that have won it all in that role are considered the best of the best, historically. The five guys you mentioned are considered what, top 25 ever at worst?
I question whether there are even 10 guys in the league who you can build a contender around.
Is Doncic, for example, top 10? He's never been out of the first round. Or Embidd? He's never been out of the second round.
Again, I don't really see what guys like that have gotten "done" that AD hasn't.
And to be fair to AD, I don't know that he's single-handedly to be blamed for the Pelicans misfortunes. He was surrounded by really crappy teammates. When they managed to get to the playoffs, they were steamrolled by the Warriors.
So I am not arguing that AD is the guy I would want to build a team around to win a ring. I'm arguing that there are far fewer of those guys than you might imagine. There might only be 5 in the league at any given time who you can build a team around with confidence that you have a reasonable shot of winning.
What you say is true... but that's why you don't trade half your team unless they are one of those five guys.
I've never said AD isn't good, I'd say he's pretty great.
that was much worse as Bynum was caught by surprise. AD had little time to react and he did lift his leg a bit. AD said he heard a pop which worried him, so i think he was relieved after knowing it was only a MCL sprain.
Davis isn’t a top 10 player. Those guys can get it done as primary options.
I'm not sure what that even means.
There's only 5 guys in the league who have won rings as a primary option -- Lebron, Giannis, Kawhi, Curry and Durant.
So who are the other top 5 and what have they gotten "done." I mean, Jovic has been in the league 7 year, he's made the playoffs 3 times, and he's never reached the finals. Is that getting it "done'?
Who are the other top 5 -- Joel Embidd? What has he gotten "done"? Ditto for Luka Doncic, Damian Lillard, Trae Young, or whoever else is in your top 10. What exactly have they gotten "done" that AD hasn't gotten "done"?
I ask this in all seriousness because people throw around these sweeping generalization, without explaining what they mean, so I always wonder if they have actually given all thought to their sweeping generalizations.
If you asked people that rank Embiid over Davis what success Embiid has had with two all-stars on his team. And what makes his numbers 'meaningful' and AD's 'empty'.
And as much as they complain about Davis being 'fragile and unreliable', I have no clue how they overlook that when it comes to Embiid.
Embiid's total played Games every season
Year 1: didn't play
Year 2: didn't play
Year 3: 31 Games
Year 4: 63 Games
Year 5: 64 Games
Year 6: 51 Games
Year 7: 51 Games
Year 8: 20(out of 31) Games
But they praise Embiid and don't mention his 'unreliability' nor the fact his play has never lead to championships, even when he had two all-stars on his team. But they won't be quiet about Davis's 'unreliability' and 'fragileness'.
They don't like to remember that Embiid had Butler and Tobias Harris AND Ben Simmons against Toronto, and they LOST.
Know what Embiid did that 7 game series? 17/8/3 on 37% from the field AS A CENTER.... let that marinate. And that was a 7 game series. Has AD ever let us down for a series? Has AD ever let his team down in a series? With far less talent than Embiid has been gifted with Davis was ALWAYS bringing it during the Playoffs and the reason his team's fell didn't have anything to do with him "not showing up".
Basketball is a team sport, Joel Embiid has been surrounded by SQUADS.. and come up short. The same squads that AD would have LOVED to have had in New Orleans. But Joel (I average 50 games a season and think I'm Shaq when I trash talk but don't have the rings to back it up) Embiid is 'more reliable' than Anthony Davis... right...
And for the people that scream they want Tatum over AD. The question when you look at Tatum's success or more so non-successes in the East with the Celtics. You wonder what makes Tatum's numbers "legit" and AD's numbers "empty".
Particularly when AD is the better defender than them both and the one actually doing it on both ends.
There isn't a true argument against AD not being within the top 10 in the league. Not just as an overall talent, not just for the superstar numbers he puts up (Putting up 24/10 and 2 blocks on a team with 2 other 20 ppg scorers is saying something about the numbers he WOULD be putting up this season), but also what he's already shown what he can do. He IS capable of winning a Championship as a 1a option. And that in the Playoffs he steps up even more. Only injury stopping him(and us) from 2-peating.
His numbers this season on both ends have been impressive, especially considering the responsibility he's had to have defensively to carry the load more than he ever has given the makeup of the team. But of course some Lakers fans refuse to give him credit for it. They even think his 24/10 and 2 blocks a game is unimpressive, despite him being the only person in the league doing it. And on a team with two other guys that score 20+ a game that IS impressive.
But nope people want AD averaging 30/14 on a team with two other 20+PPG scorers as if statistical sacrifice doesn't exist. Pau puts up 18/11 as a 2nd option and people say its an "insult" to compare him to AD. AD puts up 24/10/2 on a three-star team and he's "not doing enough".
Yeah, these fans don't appreciate greatness till it's gone and they are wallowing in the lottery again. _________________ How NBA 2K18 failed the All-Time Lakers:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kxMBYm3wwxk
Remember when Kobe fell and ran into Bynum? Similar play into what happened to AD. Difference is Bynum was done for the season. AD is done for 2 months (I think he'll be ok in a month, but will need another month to recover). That's the difference in an all-time player and a guy whose career is altered by injuries.
No, the difference is just dumb luck. All it would take is a slightly different trajectory of the falling body, or a slightly more locked out knee for AD, or contact made a few fractions of a second earlier or later and we could be looking at a blown ACL instead. Or say an MCL injury with a severe bone bruise.
AD dodged a bullet, it’s not because of his greatness as a player. Comparing him to Bynum, who was plagued by knee issues since high school, is a stretch.
I still remember that. Those injuries did a number on him and cut his career short. That's why I can never rag on Bynum the way some people do on social media. By all metrics, he had a productive seven year career and was monumental to the 2 championship runs. No way lakers win without him. He accomplished way more than the vast majority of players who have ever played in the NBA.
Big men just have it tougher than the rest, which is why I'm cutting AD a lot of slack here. It's not his fault that this is happening to him.
Davis isn’t a top 10 player. Those guys can get it done as primary options.
I'm not sure what that even means.
There's only 5 guys in the league who have won rings as a primary option -- Lebron, Giannis, Kawhi, Curry and Durant.
So who are the other top 5 and what have they gotten "done." I mean, Jovic has been in the league 7 year, he's made the playoffs 3 times, and he's never reached the finals. Is that getting it "done'?
Who are the other top 5 -- Joel Embidd? What has he gotten "done"? Ditto for Luka Doncic, Damian Lillard, Trae Young, or whoever else is in your top 10. What exactly have they gotten "done" that AD hasn't gotten "done"?
I ask this in all seriousness because people throw around these sweeping generalization, without explaining what they mean, so I always wonder if they have actually given all thought to their sweeping generalizations.
Meaning I can build a title contender around you. Not I’m not even sure I can get out of round one with a team built around you. Team’s primarily built around Davis have mediocre results, and that’s not top 10 impact. His durability has a lot to do with that. This is his 10th year and I bet half this board wouldn’t be confident in him getting a team past round 1, or even to the playoffs, as the focal point. Be honest.
The guys that have won it all in that role are considered the best of the best, historically. The five guys you mentioned are considered what, top 25 ever at worst?
sort of like James Harden?
The Rockets have built multiple title contending teams around Harden. He hasn't shown he's good enough to lead a team to a title but he's clearly shown he's good enough to build a contender around. It shouldn't have been a surprise to anyone last year when the Nets were still contending with Harden despite missing KD and Kyrie. Davis is likely in the lotto in the same situation, based on what he has shown us while leading teams in his career.
Last edited by Dreamshake on Tue Dec 21, 2021 10:56 pm; edited 1 time in total
I question whether there are even 10 guys in the league who you can build a contender around.
That's fair, but I think it's clear Davis isn't a guy you can build a contender around. He's been in the league for a decade. He is what he is.
activeverb wrote:
So I am not arguing that AD is the guy I would want to build a team around to win a ring. I'm arguing that there are far fewer of those guys than you might imagine. There might only be 5 in the league at any given time who you can build a team around with confidence that you have a reasonable shot of winning.
Davis isn’t a top 10 player. Those guys can get it done as primary options.
I'm not sure what that even means.
There's only 5 guys in the league who have won rings as a primary option -- Lebron, Giannis, Kawhi, Curry and Durant.
So who are the other top 5 and what have they gotten "done." I mean, Jovic has been in the league 7 year, he's made the playoffs 3 times, and he's never reached the finals. Is that getting it "done'?
Who are the other top 5 -- Joel Embidd? What has he gotten "done"? Ditto for Luka Doncic, Damian Lillard, Trae Young, or whoever else is in your top 10. What exactly have they gotten "done" that AD hasn't gotten "done"?
I ask this in all seriousness because people throw around these sweeping generalization, without explaining what they mean, so I always wonder if they have actually given all thought to their sweeping generalizations.
Meaning I can build a title contender around you. Not I’m not even sure I can get out of round one with a team built around you. Team’s primarily built around Davis have mediocre results, and that’s not top 10 impact. His durability has a lot to do with that. This is his 10th year and I bet half this board wouldn’t be confident in him getting a team past round 1, or even to the playoffs, as the focal point. Be honest.
The guys that have won it all in that role are considered the best of the best, historically. The five guys you mentioned are considered what, top 25 ever at worst?
sort of like James Harden?
The Rockets have built multiple title contending teams around Harden. He hasn't shown he's good enough to lead a team to a title but he's clearly shown he's good enough to build a contender around. It shouldn't have been a surprise to anyone last year when the Nets were still contending with Harden despite missing KD and Kyrie. Davis is likely in the lotto in the same situation.
If the NOP got CP3 somehow to play with Ad, we might not even be able to lure him away. Harden is a choker and that’s pretty much a forgone conclusion. I might not value AD as high as some here, but Harden is also not a guy you build around.
Definitely can see major differences in the team's ability without AD. It will take some time, and they will adjust, but the guy does so many things for the team. When you drop off from AD to DAJ, just wow.
Definitely can see major differences in the team's ability without AD. It will take some time, and they will adjust, but the guy does so many things for the team. When you drop off from AD to DAJ, just wow.
Even when underachieving, I still consider him the most impactful player on the team. BBindex agrees with that.
Definitely can see major differences in the team's ability without AD. It will take some time, and they will adjust, but the guy does so many things for the team. When you drop off from AD to DAJ, just wow.
Even when underachieving, I still consider him the most impactful player on the team. BBindex agrees with that.
The team will need to hold down the fort and stay at .500 for the next 2 months, Schedule will be a lot tougher. As I said before, this is sink or swim time. If we can stay at .500 until end of Feb, then we have to get everyone healthy for a strong run in March/April. Basically what we wanted to do last season, but couldn't end up doing as Bron never got his ankle right. I don't see us doing better than a 7th seed play in, or maybe 6th seed if the West is weaker this year (which it does seem to be).
Definitely can see major differences in the team's ability without AD. It will take some time, and they will adjust, but the guy does so many things for the team. When you drop off from AD to DAJ, just wow.
Even when underachieving, I still consider him the most impactful player on the team. BBindex agrees with that.
The team will need to hold down the fort and stay at .500 for the next 2 months, Schedule will be a lot tougher. As I said before, this is sink or swim time. If we can stay at .500 until end of Feb, then we have to get everyone healthy for a strong run in March/April. Basically what we wanted to do last season, but couldn't end up doing as Bron never got his ankle right. I don't see us doing better than a 7th seed play in, or maybe 6th seed if the West is weaker this year (which it does seem to be).
Lofty goal of playing .500 ball for the next 1-2 months without Davis.
Lakers have been hovering around that with him and the Big Three and one of the easiest home heavy schedules in the League.
I am not as optimistic they can maintain enough consistency over the second half of the season to even play at that level. Maybe the “ health and chemistry” improves over the second half of the season. Maybe they keep themselves in the fringes of the playoff race and can be a “ team no one wants to play” ?
Lakers have been hovering around that with him and the Big Three and one of the easiest home heavy schedules in the League.
They've had 17 starting lineups. If that keeps happening, yes, staying at .500 will be tough. However if Westbrook/Bron stay healthy and they can get some health from 2-3 role guys around them, staying at .500 is a realistic target. But, for sure if the same trends continue where you're seeing constant changes and in/out of lineups, yes, the Lakers may even fall below .500
I keep saying Rob needs to get that 3rd starter. Well 4th, since AD is out for 2 months or so, so that 4th guy who can play big minutes. We have some quality role guys in Bradley/Reaves, but aside from them, there's not a clear starting level player on the team. I know they had big hopes for THT, but he's not ready to be that guy now, not a consistent basis. THT needs a re-build situation.
This injury is not ADs fault by all accounts it was lucky it wasn't worst. The problem with AD this year is two fold. His perimeter shot has been off. The other is the parts on this team don't fit and it shows. We all agree AD at the 5 makes sense. For that to work, your forwards beyond LBJ cannot be Melo and Ariza. Not at this point in their careers. If you have LBJ next to AD, you need an active SF/PF that plays defense, can make a three ball and doesn't need the ball to be productive. WHO on this roster qualifies? No One. Further to go small everyone needs to be a true threat. Houston did it with the 3 for 2 mentality. Lakers are better from three but far from great. They cannot play that way.
Other than Giannis, Durant, Jokic, Curry, I don't know you trade AD for anyone. Even in an off year he is still the teams best defender, second best player and he cannot be easily replaced. Still with this roster WTF was Pelinka thinking?
This injury is not ADs fault by all accounts it was lucky it wasn't worst. The problem with AD this year is two fold. His perimeter shot has been off. The other is the parts on this team don't fit and it shows. We all agree AD at the 5 makes sense. For that to work, your forwards beyond LBJ cannot be Melo and Ariza. Not at this point in their careers. If you have LBJ next to AD, you need an active SF/PF that plays defense, can make a three ball and doesn't need the ball to be productive. WHO on this roster qualifies? No One. Further to go small everyone needs to be a true threat. Houston did it with the 3 for 2 mentality. Lakers are better from three but far from great. They cannot play that way.
When the offseason began, there were two things I was saying we should aim for in the offseason thread. I was under the assumption that the Lakers were ok with Bron being the PG.
1) A starting level stretch 5. I was hoping we traded for Myles Turner or even Porzingis. That was the big move I was hoping for. Gave Vogel some defensive rim protection but also athleticism and spacing.
2) A 1 guard that can shoot 3s, or a guard that can defend PGs that can make 3s.
3) A guard for the bench who can carry the load when Bron sits.
Those were the only 3 things I thought we needed other than AD/Bron health. I am guessing here, but the Lakers probably valued #3 the highest, and #1 the least. They probably also thought AD could resolve the 1) that I listed. Which he can, but it comes at a cost. We don't get the length of AD and wing D that AD brings from there. We become less of a rebound team as well. AD is a fine 5, an elite 5. But when we run him at 4, we give ourselves a chance to have him both disrupt wings with his length and also close out as a 5.
In the end, we did address the things I thought we needed to. We signed Bradley. We signed some shooters who show some defensive promise (Reaves). But we didn't value things maybe in the right order, IMO.
Signing BOTH DAJ and Dwight just shows the Lakers didn't really value the importance of having a scoring threat at the 5.
You cannot post new topics in this forum You cannot reply to topics in this forum You cannot edit your posts in this forum You cannot delete your posts in this forum You cannot vote in polls in this forum
