Lebron has a very good chance to me of retiring as the GOAT
He lost all of this to me when he seemed to just give up in some finals performances.
So why wouldn't he gain it back with his performances in games 5-7 while down 3-1, i.e. not giving up and balling like crazy? Against a 73 win squad and leading everyone in everything.
If you really knock someone for the lowest of lows don't you have to elevate them for the highest of highs? Or have em offset at the least? I've rarely seen any GOAT candidate go passive like he did in the 2011 Finals. I've also arguably never seen anyone have a better Finals than he just had. Since the 2011 debacle (the only time he arguably gave up) he's gone to 5 Finals, won 3 (and had arguably the best Finals ever) and lost 2 (to a great Spurs team and took a great Warriors team to 6 games with limited help). That's a hell of a recovery.
Lebron has a very good chance to me of retiring as the GOAT
He lost all of this to me when he seemed to just give up in some finals performances.
So why wouldn't he gain it back with his performances in games 5-7 while down 3-1, i.e. not giving up and balling like crazy? Against a 73 win squad and leading everyone in everything.
If you really knock someone for the lowest of lows don't you have to elevate them for the highest of highs? Or have em offset at the least? I've rarely seen any GOAT candidate go passive like he did in the 2011 Finals. I've also arguably never seen anyone have a better Finals than he just had. Since the 2011 debacle (the only time he arguably gave up) he's gone to 5 Finals, won 3 (and had arguably the best Finals ever) and lost 2 (to a great Spurs team and took a great Warriors team to 6 games with limited help). That's a hell of a recovery.
Who says he didnt gain anything?
I personally didn't think that highly of lebron before these past two finals. I see him as a totally different player now, for the better.
Lebron has a very good chance to me of retiring as the GOAT
He lost all of this to me when he seemed to just give up in some finals performances.
So why wouldn't he gain it back with his performances in games 5-7 while down 3-1, i.e. not giving up and balling like crazy? Against a 73 win squad and leading everyone in everything.
If you really knock someone for the lowest of lows don't you have to elevate them for the highest of highs? Or have em offset at the least? I've rarely seen any GOAT candidate go passive like he did in the 2011 Finals. I've also arguably never seen anyone have a better Finals than he just had. Since the 2011 debacle (the only time he arguably gave up) he's gone to 5 Finals, won 3 (and had arguably the best Finals ever) and lost 2 (to a great Spurs team and took a great Warriors team to 6 games with limited help). That's a hell of a recovery.
Who says he didnt gain anything?
I personally didn't think that highly of lebron before these past two finals. I see him as a totally different player now, for the better.
It seems like your opinion was heavily swayed by what happened in 2011. My question was I get 2011 was horrible, but one can't redeem themselves from a horrible showing with arguably the best ever?
I feel like the critique that LeBron always beat weak teams should die now that he beat the 73-9 Warriors.
Look how many times kobe beat the spurs just to make the finals. Now imagine lebron needing to beat them that many times just to get to all those finals.
I feel like the critique that LeBron always beat weak teams should die now that he beat the 73-9 Warriors.
Look how many times kobe beat the spurs just to make the finals. Now imagine lebron needing to beat them that many times just to get to all those finals.
If you give LeBron Shaq, he isn't going to lose to any of those Spurs teams. They couldn't focus the entire defense on him due to Shaq (which is necessary). He avg's 28 ppg on 50% against Bowen when he was playing with Cleveland and no other great offensive player. I doubt LeBron and Shaq would ever lose a title. Both are too physically imposing.
Joined: 24 Dec 2007 Posts: 36337 Location: Santa Clarita, CA (Hell) ->>>>>Ithaca, NY -≥≥≥≥≥Berkeley, CA
Posted: Sat Aug 13, 2016 6:24 am Post subject:
Dreamshake wrote:
SuperboyReformed wrote:
CandyCanes wrote:
I feel like the critique that LeBron always beat weak teams should die now that he beat the 73-9 Warriors.
Look how many times kobe beat the spurs just to make the finals. Now imagine lebron needing to beat them that many times just to get to all those finals.
If you give LeBron Shaq, he isn't going to lose to any of those Spurs teams. They couldn't focus the entire defense on him due to Shaq (which is necessary). He avg's 28 ppg on 50% against Bowen when he was playing with Cleveland and no other great offensive player. I doubt LeBron and Shaq would ever lose a title. Both are too physically imposing.
Wouldn't Shaq clog up the lane and prevent LeBron from driving? _________________ Damian Lillard shatters Dwight Coward's championship dreams:
I feel like the critique that LeBron always beat weak teams should die now that he beat the 73-9 Warriors.
Look how many times kobe beat the spurs just to make the finals. Now imagine lebron needing to beat them that many times just to get to all those finals.
If you give LeBron Shaq, he isn't going to lose to any of those Spurs teams. They couldn't focus the entire defense on him due to Shaq (which is necessary). He avg's 28 ppg on 50% against Bowen when he was playing with Cleveland and no other great offensive player. I doubt LeBron and Shaq would ever lose a title. Both are too physically imposing.
Wouldn't Shaq clog up the lane and prevent LeBron from driving?
If you gave Kobe Wade and Bosh, in his prime, he wouldn't have lost to Dallas or the Spurs.
I feel like the critique that LeBron always beat weak teams should die now that he beat the 73-9 Warriors.
Look how many times kobe beat the spurs just to make the finals. Now imagine lebron needing to beat them that many times just to get to all those finals.
If you give LeBron Shaq, he isn't going to lose to any of those Spurs teams. They couldn't focus the entire defense on him due to Shaq (which is necessary). He avg's 28 ppg on 50% against Bowen when he was playing with Cleveland and no other great offensive player. I doubt LeBron and Shaq would ever lose a title. Both are too physically imposing.
Wouldn't Shaq clog up the lane and prevent LeBron from driving?
If you gave Kobe Wade and Bosh, in his prime, he wouldn't have lost to Dallas or the Spurs.
That's beyond wishful thinking ...
Kobe was swept by that same 2011 Dallas team in the second round of the postseason with Pau Gasol, Lamar Odom, Andrew Bynum, Phil Jackson and a back-to-back defending championship cast surrounding him ... exchanging that 2011 Kobe for what? The 2006 Kobe? The 2001 Kobe? The 2009 Kobe? Any of those differences was going to make up for a sweep and a 30+ point elimination game blowout loss? After repeated press conferences promising that nobody was worried, that the series was going to be turned around, without question? No ...
And the 2014 Spurs team would have run a train on prime Kobe with 2014 versions of Wade and Bosh as the primary supporting roles on any team.
Regardless, these imaginary scenarios are pointless ... people played where the played ... but some require a lot more imagination than others.
Joined: 14 Apr 2001 Posts: 144697 Location: The Gold Coast
Posted: Sat Aug 13, 2016 11:03 am Post subject:
Dreamshake wrote:
marga86 wrote:
Dreamshake wrote:
marga86 wrote:
The Logo wrote:
Lebron has a very good chance to me of retiring as the GOAT
He lost all of this to me when he seemed to just give up in some finals performances.
So why wouldn't he gain it back with his performances in games 5-7 while down 3-1, i.e. not giving up and balling like crazy? Against a 73 win squad and leading everyone in everything.
If you really knock someone for the lowest of lows don't you have to elevate them for the highest of highs? Or have em offset at the least? I've rarely seen any GOAT candidate go passive like he did in the 2011 Finals. I've also arguably never seen anyone have a better Finals than he just had. Since the 2011 debacle (the only time he arguably gave up) he's gone to 5 Finals, won 3 (and had arguably the best Finals ever) and lost 2 (to a great Spurs team and took a great Warriors team to 6 games with limited help). That's a hell of a recovery.
Who says he didnt gain anything?
I personally didn't think that highly of lebron before these past two finals. I see him as a totally different player now, for the better.
It seems like your opinion was heavily swayed by what happened in 2011. My question was I get 2011 was horrible, but one can't redeem themselves from a horrible showing with arguably the best ever?
Kobe mailed it in against Boston only to come back the next season and beat them. It happens. _________________ RIP mom. 11-21-1933 to 6-14-2023.
Joined: 14 Apr 2001 Posts: 144697 Location: The Gold Coast
Posted: Sat Aug 13, 2016 11:04 am Post subject:
vanexelent wrote:
CandyCanes wrote:
Dreamshake wrote:
SuperboyReformed wrote:
CandyCanes wrote:
I feel like the critique that LeBron always beat weak teams should die now that he beat the 73-9 Warriors.
Look how many times kobe beat the spurs just to make the finals. Now imagine lebron needing to beat them that many times just to get to all those finals.
If you give LeBron Shaq, he isn't going to lose to any of those Spurs teams. They couldn't focus the entire defense on him due to Shaq (which is necessary). He avg's 28 ppg on 50% against Bowen when he was playing with Cleveland and no other great offensive player. I doubt LeBron and Shaq would ever lose a title. Both are too physically imposing.
Wouldn't Shaq clog up the lane and prevent LeBron from driving?
If you gave Kobe Wade and Bosh, in his prime, he wouldn't have lost to Dallas or the Spurs.
Yet he had Shaq, Malone and Payton and lost to the Pistons. _________________ RIP mom. 11-21-1933 to 6-14-2023.
I feel like the critique that LeBron always beat weak teams should die now that he beat the 73-9 Warriors.
Look how many times kobe beat the spurs just to make the finals. Now imagine lebron needing to beat them that many times just to get to all those finals.
If you give LeBron Shaq, he isn't going to lose to any of those Spurs teams. They couldn't focus the entire defense on him due to Shaq (which is necessary). He avg's 28 ppg on 50% against Bowen when he was playing with Cleveland and no other great offensive player. I doubt LeBron and Shaq would ever lose a title. Both are too physically imposing.
Wouldn't Shaq clog up the lane and prevent LeBron from driving?
If you gave Kobe Wade and Bosh, in his prime, he wouldn't have lost to Dallas or the Spurs.
Yet he had Shaq, Malone and Payton and lost to the Pistons.
I feel like the critique that LeBron always beat weak teams should die now that he beat the 73-9 Warriors.
Look how many times kobe beat the spurs just to make the finals. Now imagine lebron needing to beat them that many times just to get to all those finals.
If you give LeBron Shaq, he isn't going to lose to any of those Spurs teams. They couldn't focus the entire defense on him due to Shaq (which is necessary). He avg's 28 ppg on 50% against Bowen when he was playing with Cleveland and no other great offensive player. I doubt LeBron and Shaq would ever lose a title. Both are too physically imposing.
Wouldn't Shaq clog up the lane and prevent LeBron from driving?
If you gave Kobe Wade and Bosh, in his prime, he wouldn't have lost to Dallas or the Spurs.
Yet he had Shaq, Malone and Payton and lost to the Pistons.
Malone and Payton combined for less than 10ppg.
Yup. Tired of the crap on losing the finals to pistons blamed on Kobe. These haters will never never ever tell you how badder was the entire Lakers outside Shaq n Kobe. These haters keep saying Kobe shot 38% n the reason LA lost.
I WOULD LIKE TO CHALLENGE THE HATERS TO REVEAL THE SUPPORTING CAST'S STATS FOR THE FINALS AND COMPARED IT WITH KOBE'S 38%. _________________ Kobe's Top 5 Dunks, 81 points, MJ last gm @Staples
I feel like the critique that LeBron always beat weak teams should die now that he beat the 73-9 Warriors.
Look how many times kobe beat the spurs just to make the finals. Now imagine lebron needing to beat them that many times just to get to all those finals.
If you give LeBron Shaq, he isn't going to lose to any of those Spurs teams. They couldn't focus the entire defense on him due to Shaq (which is necessary). He avg's 28 ppg on 50% against Bowen when he was playing with Cleveland and no other great offensive player. I doubt LeBron and Shaq would ever lose a title. Both are too physically imposing.
Wouldn't Shaq clog up the lane and prevent LeBron from driving?
If you gave Kobe Wade and Bosh, in his prime, he wouldn't have lost to Dallas or the Spurs.
Yet he had Shaq, Malone and Payton and lost to the Pistons.
Malone and Payton combined for less than 10ppg.
Yup. Tired of the crap on losing the finals to pistons blamed on Kobe. These haters will never never ever tell you how badder was the entire Lakers outside Shaq n Kobe. These haters keep saying Kobe shot 38% n the reason LA lost.
I WOULD LIKE TO CHALLENGE THE HATERS TO REVEAL THE SUPPORTING CAST'S STATS FOR THE FINALS AND COMPARED IT WITH KOBE'S 38%.
Having to give significant minutes to Slava Medvedenko, rookie brian cook, or rookie luke walton against Rasheed Wallace for an entire series was probably pretty bad. Especially when Rasheed doesn't have to guard either of those guys and can float or sit in Shaq's lap.
Horace Grant missing the playoffs to a hip injury was lowkey the biggest blow to our playoffs chances. Dude could rebound, defend, hit the mid range jumper, knew the triangle, and was a high character dude (don't remember if he traveled with the team).
Joined: 14 Apr 2001 Posts: 144697 Location: The Gold Coast
Posted: Mon Aug 15, 2016 9:31 am Post subject:
moonriver24 wrote:
The Grind wrote:
venturalakersfan wrote:
vanexelent wrote:
CandyCanes wrote:
Dreamshake wrote:
SuperboyReformed wrote:
CandyCanes wrote:
I feel like the critique that LeBron always beat weak teams should die now that he beat the 73-9 Warriors.
Look how many times kobe beat the spurs just to make the finals. Now imagine lebron needing to beat them that many times just to get to all those finals.
If you give LeBron Shaq, he isn't going to lose to any of those Spurs teams. They couldn't focus the entire defense on him due to Shaq (which is necessary). He avg's 28 ppg on 50% against Bowen when he was playing with Cleveland and no other great offensive player. I doubt LeBron and Shaq would ever lose a title. Both are too physically imposing.
Wouldn't Shaq clog up the lane and prevent LeBron from driving?
If you gave Kobe Wade and Bosh, in his prime, he wouldn't have lost to Dallas or the Spurs.
Yet he had Shaq, Malone and Payton and lost to the Pistons.
Malone and Payton combined for less than 10ppg.
Yup. Tired of the crap on losing the finals to pistons blamed on Kobe. These haters will never never ever tell you how badder was the entire Lakers outside Shaq n Kobe. These haters keep saying Kobe shot 38% n the reason LA lost.
I WOULD LIKE TO CHALLENGE THE HATERS TO REVEAL THE SUPPORTING CAST'S STATS FOR THE FINALS AND COMPARED IT WITH KOBE'S 38%.
No one is blaming it on Kobe, but to suggest hypothetically that adding Bosh and Wade to Kobe would automatically win titles is pure fiction. Kobe had a good supporting cast and lost a couple of times in the Finals. My point is that doing so isn't a bad thing, good players sometimes lose. _________________ RIP mom. 11-21-1933 to 6-14-2023.
Lebron has a very good chance to me of retiring as the GOAT
He lost all of this to me when he seemed to just give up in some finals performances.
So why wouldn't he gain it back with his performances in games 5-7 while down 3-1, i.e. not giving up and balling like crazy? Against a 73 win squad and leading everyone in everything.
If you really knock someone for the lowest of lows don't you have to elevate them for the highest of highs? Or have em offset at the least? I've rarely seen any GOAT candidate go passive like he did in the 2011 Finals. I've also arguably never seen anyone have a better Finals than he just had. Since the 2011 debacle (the only time he arguably gave up) he's gone to 5 Finals, won 3 (and had arguably the best Finals ever) and lost 2 (to a great Spurs team and took a great Warriors team to 6 games with limited help). That's a hell of a recovery.
Who says he didnt gain anything?
I personally didn't think that highly of lebron before these past two finals. I see him as a totally different player now, for the better.
It seems like your opinion was heavily swayed by what happened in 2011. My question was I get 2011 was horrible, but one can't redeem themselves from a horrible showing with arguably the best ever?
GOATs are GOATs for a reason in my eyes, just the personal criteria i use.
I feel like the critique that LeBron always beat weak teams should die now that he beat the 73-9 Warriors.
Look how many times kobe beat the spurs just to make the finals. Now imagine lebron needing to beat them that many times just to get to all those finals.
If you give LeBron Shaq, he isn't going to lose to any of those Spurs teams. They couldn't focus the entire defense on him due to Shaq (which is necessary). He avg's 28 ppg on 50% against Bowen when he was playing with Cleveland and no other great offensive player. I doubt LeBron and Shaq would ever lose a title. Both are too physically imposing.
Wouldn't Shaq clog up the lane and prevent LeBron from driving?
If you gave Kobe Wade and Bosh, in his prime, he wouldn't have lost to Dallas or the Spurs.
Yet he had Shaq, Malone and Payton and lost to the Pistons.
Malone and Payton combined for less than 10ppg.
Yup. Tired of the crap on losing the finals to pistons blamed on Kobe. These haters will never never ever tell you how badder was the entire Lakers outside Shaq n Kobe. These haters keep saying Kobe shot 38% n the reason LA lost.
I WOULD LIKE TO CHALLENGE THE HATERS TO REVEAL THE SUPPORTING CAST'S STATS FOR THE FINALS AND COMPARED IT WITH KOBE'S 38%.
And that's not to downplay Karl's contributions throughout the 04 playoff run. Dude was great all year, and his defensive work against Duncan/Garnett was phenomenal. But the fact of the matter is he got injured early in the finals and was a complete non factor. GP, OTH, was solid all season, and contributed steadily during the playoffs but had an abysmal finals, particularly in guarding Billups.
Joined: 20 Apr 2006 Posts: 15294 Location: Southern California
Posted: Wed Aug 17, 2016 11:44 pm Post subject:
the association wrote:
vanexelent wrote:
CandyCanes wrote:
Dreamshake wrote:
SuperboyReformed wrote:
CandyCanes wrote:
I feel like the critique that LeBron always beat weak teams should die now that he beat the 73-9 Warriors.
Look how many times kobe beat the spurs just to make the finals. Now imagine lebron needing to beat them that many times just to get to all those finals.
If you give LeBron Shaq, he isn't going to lose to any of those Spurs teams. They couldn't focus the entire defense on him due to Shaq (which is necessary). He avg's 28 ppg on 50% against Bowen when he was playing with Cleveland and no other great offensive player. I doubt LeBron and Shaq would ever lose a title. Both are too physically imposing.
Wouldn't Shaq clog up the lane and prevent LeBron from driving?
If you gave Kobe Wade and Bosh, in his prime, he wouldn't have lost to Dallas or the Spurs.
That's beyond wishful thinking ...
Kobe was swept by that same 2011 Dallas team in the second round of the postseason with Pau Gasol, Lamar Odom, Andrew Bynum, Phil Jackson and a back-to-back defending championship cast surrounding him ... exchanging that 2011 Kobe for what? The 2006 Kobe? The 2001 Kobe? The 2009 Kobe? Any of those differences was going to make up for a sweep and a 30+ point elimination game blowout loss? After repeated press conferences promising that nobody was worried, that the series was going to be turned around, without question? No ...
And the 2014 Spurs team would have run a train on prime Kobe with 2014 versions of Wade and Bosh as the primary supporting roles on any team.
Regardless, these imaginary scenarios are pointless ... people played where the played ... but some require a lot more imagination than others.
Solid. That's why I try not to deal with the hypotheticals.
I feel like the critique that LeBron always beat weak teams should die now that he beat the 73-9 Warriors.
Look how many times kobe beat the spurs just to make the finals. Now imagine lebron needing to beat them that many times just to get to all those finals.
If you give LeBron Shaq, he isn't going to lose to any of those Spurs teams. They couldn't focus the entire defense on him due to Shaq (which is necessary). He avg's 28 ppg on 50% against Bowen when he was playing with Cleveland and no other great offensive player. I doubt LeBron and Shaq would ever lose a title. Both are too physically imposing.
Wouldn't Shaq clog up the lane and prevent LeBron from driving?
If you gave Kobe Wade and Bosh, in his prime, he wouldn't have lost to Dallas or the Spurs.
That's beyond wishful thinking ...
Kobe was swept by that same 2011 Dallas team in the second round of the postseason with Pau Gasol, Lamar Odom, Andrew Bynum, Phil Jackson and a back-to-back defending championship cast surrounding him ... exchanging that 2011 Kobe for what? The 2006 Kobe? The 2001 Kobe? The 2009 Kobe? Any of those differences was going to make up for a sweep and a 30+ point elimination game blowout loss? After repeated press conferences promising that nobody was worried, that the series was going to be turned around, without question? No ...
And the 2014 Spurs team would have run a train on prime Kobe with 2014 versions of Wade and Bosh as the primary supporting roles on any team.
Regardless, these imaginary scenarios are pointless ... people played where the played ... but some require a lot more imagination than others.
Solid. That's why I try not to deal with the hypotheticals.
that 2011 team...expectations were already low for that team; that really wasn't a surprising result. Screw the Spurs man. seriously. they have one ring hanging off of horry's heroics, which is annoying to me. But whatever, lakers have some transports. back on topic, i think you pulled a bit of a fast one there.
kobe prime, wade prime, bosh prime is not the same as kobe, pau, odom. wade and bosh were both at one point top 10 players in the league. something pau and odom never really were. and wade was actually like a top one or two for many years. so please. and don't get me started on lebron, who is considered a lock #1 guy...so here he is playing with another #1 like wade...it's so not comporable to anything other than weird celtics teams way long ago. it's not the same.
now you replace lebron with kobe, and that team is out of this world, cmon. that's insane to act like it wouldn't be. It would almost be a dream team. 3/5 players on court are actual dream teammates. and this is not lebron's limited offense here. this is kobe hitting form anywhere with nobody on his team, let alone those guys. so cmon. spurs, please.
spurs are solid and steady, i'll give you that. but their highs are nowhere near on the level of kobe highs, and for sure not even laker highs. i'm so pissed they got aldridge. aldridge and pau is going to be beautiful. might be the last time we see two bigs of that skill sets together for a while.
wade and bosh were both at one point top 10 players in the league.
Bosh has never at any point in his life been a top 10 player in the NBA.
SuperboyReformed wrote:
and wade was actually like a top one or two for many years.
Wade has never at any point in his life been a top 2 player in the NBA. He was never better than LeBron or Kobe pre Kobe's injury, and post Kobe's injury he wasn't anywhere close to being a top 5 player.
SuperboyReformed wrote:
now you replace lebron with kobe, and that team is out of this world, cmon.
If you replace Kobe with LeBron that team is screwed, not necessarily because Kobe is worse, but because Kobe is more of a pure wing (body type) and can't play big like LeBron, which Miami needed him to do. Kobe isn't winning a title with Bosh anchoring the paint.
SBR, there was no "fast one" pulled by me. Someone suggested that Kobe, in his prime, wouldn't have lost to Dallas (in the 2011 NBA Finals) or San Antonio (in the 2014 NBA Finals) with Wade and Bosh. There was no argument in this pointless hypothetical that prime Kobe would ALSO have the benefit of prime Wade and prime Bosh, which obviously then would have been an apples-to-oranges scenario, since Dallas in 2011 and San Antonio in 2014 didn't face anywhere close to "prime" versions of those players (nor did LeBron have those weapons at his disposal). No, the suggestion was that simply exchanging 2011 LeBron for whatever "prime" version of Kobe you think was best on the 2011 Heat would have been sufficient to change the outcome in favor of Miami vs. the Mavericks. And that simply exchanging 2014 LeBron for whatever "prime" version of Kobe you think was best on the 2014 Heat would have been sufficient to change the outcome in favor of Miami vs. the Spurs. I'm open to arguments re: 2011, but I'm not hearing any of that noise when it comes to 2014 ...
As I've argued, I don't think those teams are marginally better for the exchange (again, I can see the possibility of a credible argument for 2011 ... but not 2014). Setting aside the cherry-picking (Kobe's peak vs. LeBron's postseason valley in 2011), the fact that either "prime" Kobe or 2011/2014 Wade would have to shift to the frontcourt on defense, and the fact that one of them would have to play off-ball significantly more than usual, there's also the matter of whether peak Kobe (or any version of Kobe, frankly) ever had a better NBA Finals series than even the 2014 NBA Finals version of LeBron. The hurdle is an average of 28 points, 8 rebounds, 4 assists, and 2 steals on 57% shooting from the field, and 52% from three ... in 38 minutes. Yes, he had 4 turnovers and played imperfect defense on Kawhi. I guess the options would be the 2002, 2009 or 2010 versions of Kobe's NBA Finals capacity? But when you factor in production and shooting %ages (with the exception of 2002 for the latter, I believe), it becomes pretty one-sided. I know, I know, I know ... minutes played and shooting %ages don't even really matter ... but they do. Always. They always do.
Meanwhile, Pau Gasol was never a Top 10 player, but Chris Bosh was one in your book? I'll disagree on that point, as well. In fact, I'd say Bosh's contributions to the four-year NBA Finals run for the Miami Heat were roughly the same as what we were able to get from Lamar during the 2008 - 2010 run. And if forced to produce an estimate, I'd say the 2011 version of Dwyane Wade was 75 - 85% as productive and efficient as his "prime" version. And his 2014 version was maybe 65% (or less) of his prime version. Especially in the postseason, with a few exceptions. Bottom line: LeBron wasn't playing with "prime" versions of anyone during those 2011 - 2014 NBA Finals appearances.
And lastly, the "expectations were already low" in the 2011 postseason for the defending back-to-back champions, after a 57-25 season with, in your view, the GOAT (and still best player in basketball, again, in your mind) leading the charge with another All NBA performer (second team) on his side? With the best frontcourt in basketball? With the freshly-minted 11th ring on one of Phil's big toes? Really? Is that where we are? We're at the point now where we can excuse away a 32 year old's sweep in the second round (with an All NBA performer, a back-to-back defending championship cast, and the consensus GOAT coach on his side) because "expectations were low", but without feeling like an illogical hypocrite when we ridicule a 19 year old's bronze medal in the Olympics or his sweep as a 22 year old (with absolutely nobody of consequence on his side) in the NBA Finals? Again, I ask ... really?
tl/dr: I don't see much of any credible argument for the assertion that "prime", "peak" Kobe exchanged for the contemporaneous versions of LeBron James on the 2011 Heat and the 2014 Heat would have changed the outcomes in those seasons (or those NBA Finals appearances) for the better.
bosh, when stilla t toronto, was considered a top player in the league. don't know how high, but top 10 is a fine way to describe it.
wade, for sure, for sure...for several years, especially during the shaq years, was considered a top 3 talent like kobe, and lebron. before lebron joined, he was up there with leborn, kobe. so there's that.
he was never better, but many people (the majority) were putting him on that level. all you have to do is browse the forums here during that time.
and it lists bosh at 11, wade at 7, kobe at 4, lebron at 2. that should give you an idea how wrong you are. and don't nitpick the numbers, i dont care if top 2 or 3 or 5 or whatever.
and heres a comment from reddit:
Quote:
2009 Lebron. It was one of his best seasons statistically. Also, he damn near averaged 40, 10 and 10 in a playoff series, yet the Cavs still lost. He had the best season out of any of these. LeBron was beyond insane in those playoffs.
2006 Kobe. He did it with a horrible supporting cast. It was undeniable, Kobe was the best player that year.
2009 Wade. He was neck and neck with LeBron that year up until the playoffs. It was Wade's best overall year. Amazing season. I would have put him at 2nd in the MVP race that year.
2003 TMac and 2014 Durant tie. 2003 Tmac made me fall in love with the NBA, that's when I really got into it. 32, 7 and 6 on 45% shooting and 39% from three. Insane. Absolutely insane. Durant was just as insane statistically, and that season really deserves more credit.
I feel like the critique that LeBron always beat weak teams should die now that he beat the 73-9 Warriors.
Look how many times kobe beat the spurs just to make the finals. Now imagine lebron needing to beat them that many times just to get to all those finals.
If you give LeBron Shaq, he isn't going to lose to any of those Spurs teams. They couldn't focus the entire defense on him due to Shaq (which is necessary). He avg's 28 ppg on 50% against Bowen when he was playing with Cleveland and no other great offensive player. I doubt LeBron and Shaq would ever lose a title. Both are too physically imposing.
LeBron HAD Shaq. So did Wade. Wade had a 33 year old Shaq in his 2nd year when Shaq was injury prone and the team started 11-10 and Wade took that team to an NBA Championship.
LeBron had an older Shaq, but when the playoffs came, against Boston, Shaq brought it when Cleveland was in control.
Cleveland was up 2-1 on Boston.
Game 4, Shaq puts up 17
They lose by 10
Game 5 Shaq puts up 21 points with 4 blocks.
They lose by 32
They go on to lose that series.
One thing you can't say is that Shaq didn't bring it those two potential close out games, which happened AFTER Cleveland had blown them out by about 30.
And the game Shaq put up 21 with 4 blocks? Trying his darnedest? LeBron put up 15.
Remember when ESPN Was on LeBron and going "Why does 37 year old Shaq want it more than you do?"
And soon after he left.
LeBron didn't have "it" till after his 2nd year in Miami. Even he admits this.
Jordan had that from his 3rd year in the league, Kobe had it from day one. But his game didn't develop there till a few years in. Wade had it in year 1. But developed it in year 2.
LeBron's game had already developed but his mentality hadn't, and mentality is 99.9% of the battle.
he wouldn't have won any championships earlier till he had mentally gotten to that point.
Meanwhile, Pau Gasol was never a Top 10 player, but Chris Bosh was one in your book? I'll disagree on that point, as well. In fact, I'd say Bosh's contributions to the four-year NBA Finals run for the Miami Heat were roughly the same as what we were able to get from Lamar during the 2008 - 2010 run. And if forced to produce an estimate, I'd say the 2011 version of Dwyane Wade was 75 - 85% as productive and efficient as his "prime" version. And his 2014 version was maybe 65% (or less) of his prime version. Especially in the postseason, with a few exceptions. Bottom line: LeBron wasn't playing with "prime" versions of anyone during those 2011 - 2014 NBA Finals appearances.
eh, you raise some interesting points for sure. i'll address this one right now, i'll be back later...
the pau thing...i'm very high on pau personally. I think he's one of the top5 big men in recent years, and when i factor his performances on the international stage, I even place him over duncan. But if we're talking about just general public opinion (which is the mode I'm in for this discussion), then pau has never been considered a top10 guy or anything like that. And compared to bosh, bosh's status has always been significantly higher than pau's. and before the big 3 formation, bosh's status was extremely high, even for a superstar. these are heights pau has never enjoyed.
pau, even while with the lakers, was always this guy that was considered a borderline all star. it was repeated so often, that was like his trademark for the longest time. a borderline all star, just like lamar was "always a threat for the triple double" yet never got one. lol.
bosh is also underrated, as most stars are after lebron sucks all their stats and accolades away like a vampire. however, in their final run together, bosh was playing so much better than both lebron and wade. the game was moving more and more to the perimeter, and bosh was the best suited for it and he delivered.
obviously, i'm not high on lebron, but for this discussion, the public has always thought of him as a top 1-2 player, so i am treating him as such. Combining him with bosh and wade would be like larry, magic, and like alex english or something hooking up in the middle of their careers. now, this overrating of these guys is what exposes them in these comparisons, but most people will disagree with that and still consider lebron like this great player.
I don't think Kobe would've let a 27/7/5 performance from Wade go to waste, or a 19/7 from Bosh for that matter. Put a prime Kobe on that team and there is no chance in hell he sh*ts out a 17ppg bronze egg ala LBJ.
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