^
You're comparing Mitchell with Westbrook. I have no words.
Westbrook avg 22/11/11 before coming to the Lakers. Tho many didn’t think it would work, I don’t think any predicted it would be so bad that the lakers would be bottom 5 in the west missing the play-in. Even with that, it’s not comparing Westbrook to Mitchell. Thinking that way just blocks the point of what is actually being said.
I really didn't think it would be this difficult for people to understand.
--Westbrook took up far more of the cap than Mitchell would.
--Westbrook was always, ALWAYS going to be a nothing in crunch time on this team, and the fit in crunch time was ALWAYS going to suck, even in a best-case scenario of him being good in non-LeBron units.
--Mitchell can handle the ball and he can space the floor. So he's a fit in crunch time. Not to mention having a star on the floor in non-LeBron minutes.
--Mitchell is a plus defender, while Westbrook is a nothing defender.
--Mitchell is a legitimate superstar. Forget the counting stats; he's one of the 5 best guards in basketball, and I already showed yesterday that his LEBRON rating was only behind SGA and Luka among guards, and Luka isn't really a traditional guard.
--You can talk about Westbrook's counting stats on a sh*t East team before he got here, but it was pretty apparent to anyone who actually followed the game that he was in serious decline by that time and not close to an efficient player.
To sum up, Westbrook was an aging, past-his-prime, non-efficient offensive player who was a nothing defender who was always going to be a terrible fit in crunch time and who took up a significant portion of the salary cap. Mitchell is still 27 years old, so he's just entering his prime. He's an efficient offensive player who is a plus defender who will fit in crunch time and give the non-LeBron minutes a boost, all while costing less than Michael Porter Jr. does against the salary cap next year.
Hope that helps.
It didn’t help, you missed it again.. this ain’t about comparing to Westbrook…get back on track if you can. It would have been clearer had we just stated “no 3rd star” and left the example out, it’s thrown you off.
Jesus, I addressed that he isn't taking up a ton of cap next year like almost all true stars do. He signed his last "max" contract after his rookie deal, so he wasn't on the scale that more tenured veteran superstars are, AND the cap has gone up since then. I missed nothing. You do not have to gut your depth to acquire him. This is nothing like the Westbrook situation for so many reasons. He's a true superstar and if we get him, we would not be gutting our depth at all.
It would be like LeBron taking a massive pay cut for next year.
If two of Dlo/AR/Rui is included imo then that would be taking up too much cap space such that the team isn’t upgraded. If you get Mitchell trading Dlo/Vincent, or AR/Vincent, or even one of Dlo/AR with Vando then I’m for it. It’s include two of Dlo/AR/Rui that I’m against because that trio with AD/LBJ won too many actual real games on the court vs the hypothetical games on paper thought to maybe be won without them.
Show me a deal that includes only one of Dlo/AR/Rui plus anyone else except AD/LBJ for Mitchell and I’m on board. _________________ “When it looks as if it is a realistic possibility, I want to focus on winning a ship like it’s a goal that can’t be denied. I didn’t see that this off season.”
Last edited by Hanging from Rafters on Sat May 18, 2024 1:26 pm; edited 2 times in total
Joined: 25 Apr 2015 Posts: 32336 Location: Anaheim, CA
Posted: Sat May 18, 2024 1:24 pm Post subject:
manlisten wrote:
ChickenStu wrote:
manlisten wrote:
The same people who vehemently disagreed with the roster decisions last summer, even making it their sig in some cases, are now resistant to break up the team for Mitchell because a top 5 scorer wouldn't make the team better and instead would have a similar negative impact as Westbrook. Lol.
...And you aren't breaking up the team for him! This is such a huge part of it!
Right. You're losing one guy who didn't do anything against Denver and upgrading a guy who should be 6th man with a top 5 scorer. While still have some flexibility with D'lo to either retain him or possibly trade him for depth. I can't think of a much better scenario since this isn't even really a 3 star setup if each of the 3 stars isn't on a max deal.
I would understand some trepidation if he was making $50MM or something and then you have to trade 1 or 2 more guys to get him, thus gutting your depth and essentially ending up with a version of the Suns, though I'd argue our version would still be better because what the Suns have are 3 max guys who are all basically perimeter players. But yeah, I'm not a fan of the 3-star model if all 3 guys are making top-end max money. In this case, Mitchell isn't, at least not next year. I do think that it becomes an issue in 2025-26, but since that is likely LeBron's final year, I'm willing to deal with that when it comes.
Mitchell would be a massive upgrade on Reaves, and though Rui is quite useful offensively, the offensive boost that you get from Mitchell means that you can afford to play Vando significant minutes, which improves the defense two-fold because Mitchell is also a massive upgrade on Reaves defensively. And Wood can provide an offensive spark as well, though in most games I wouldn't be a fan of giving him 25+ minutes.
Another factor here is that we only control Reaves for 2 more seasons, and Rui for only one. Though there's the unlikely risk of Mitchell being a one-year rental, to me it's a complete no-brainer.
^
You're comparing Mitchell with Westbrook. I have no words.
You have no words because you lack brain cells to think critically.
Anybody with brain cells knows its not a comparison of talent between those 2 players, nor is that at all the point of what i said. Learn reading comprehension or avoid drive-by troll posts in the future. K thanks. _________________ Lakers Offseason Goal:
- Draft Zach Edey (or Kel'el Ware)
- Sign Jonas Valanciunas or Nicolas Claxton
- sign and trade DLO to not lose value
- sign a coach that’s not an idiot
The same people who vehemently disagreed with the roster decisions last summer, even making it their sig in some cases, are now resistant to break up the team for Mitchell because a top 5 scorer wouldn't make the team better and instead would have a similar negative impact as Westbrook. Lol.
...And you aren't breaking up the team for him! This is such a huge part of it!
Right. You're losing one guy who didn't do anything against Denver and upgrading a guy who should be 6th man with a top 5 scorer. While still have some flexibility with D'lo to either retain him or possibly trade him for depth. I can't think of a much better scenario since this isn't even really a 3 star setup if each of the 3 stars isn't on a max deal.
I would understand some trepidation if he was making $50MM or something and then you have to trade 1 or 2 more guys to get him, thus gutting your depth and essentially ending up with a version of the Suns, though I'd argue our version would still be better because what the Suns have are 3 max guys who are all basically perimeter players. But yeah, I'm not a fan of the 3-star model if all 3 guys are making top-end max money. In this case, Mitchell isn't, at least not next year. I do think that it becomes an issue in 2025-26, but since that is likely LeBron's final year, I'm willing to deal with that when it comes.
Mitchell would be a massive upgrade on Reaves, and though Rui is quite useful offensively, the offensive boost that you get from Mitchell means that you can afford to play Vando significant minutes, which improves the defense two-fold because Mitchell is also a massive upgrade on Reaves defensively. And Wood can provide an offensive spark as well, though in most games I wouldn't be a fan of giving him 25+ minutes.
Another factor here is that we only control Reaves for 2 more seasons, and Rui for only one. Though there's the unlikely risk of Mitchell being a one-year rental, to me it's a complete no-brainer.
Either way you look at it the situation amounts to theoretical wins on paper vs actual wins on the court. Dlo/AR/LBJ/Rui/AD won too many real games on the court to switch out two of them. A definitive upgrade at the spot traded, (AR or Dlo for Mitchell), with anyone else included that wasn’t involved in the wins (Vincent/Cam/Vando/Wood) would be ok.
The core won 70% of the last 33 games when they finally got together as starters and led 75% of the minutes in the playoff series. They did that despite poor roster construction, poor coaching, poor bench play, poor injury luck. Any one of those switched around looks like a Laker win against Denver. Upgrade one spot, no more, get a stern coach, better bench, then run the rest back to capitalize on existing progress. _________________ “When it looks as if it is a realistic possibility, I want to focus on winning a ship like it’s a goal that can’t be denied. I didn’t see that this off season.”
D'lo/Reaves/Vando/Bron/AD also won 70% of their games in the regular season and 65% if you include the playoffs. So you're taking a proven core and vastly upgrading the lead guard position if you want to go by that logic. _________________ It was reminiscent of one of those Most Interesting Man in the World advertisements: "I don't always shoot 6-for-28 from the field, but when I do, I become the youngest player in league history to score 28,000 career points."
D'lo/Reaves/Vando/Bron/AD also won 70% of their games in the regular season and 65% if you include the playoffs. So you're taking a proven core and vastly upgrading the lead guard position if you want to go by that logic.
Agree or disagree but be authentic in your arguments to understand. To be deceptive muddies the water. We’re looking at 33 games with Dlo/AR/LBJ/Rui/AD, I shouldn’t even have to point it out…because we all know it goes without saying…that Vando missed almost the entire year so it’s not the same.
Hey, I get it, Dlo/AR backcourt looks exploitable defensively, Rui’s aggressiveness…or lack thereof…seems to have him disappear at times and he has suspect defense/rebounding. Mitchell…or any legit bucket getter…seems to upgrade a team playing with AD/LBJ with another dynamic scorer. I get the other side.
My side is that often a team is worth much more than the sum of the parts and as a team the core won an incredible amount of games against tougher than normal competition that was more challenging than a regular season schedule so it’s not unreasonable to think it continues. Since they did it with poor coaching, poor roster construction, poor bench support, poor injury luck, just maybe they can replicate what they already did on the court on the court again. Then with a better coach, big back up C, defensive back up guard, they look to be able to more reliably compete for a ship than a completely new theoretical roster on paper. _________________ “When it looks as if it is a realistic possibility, I want to focus on winning a ship like it’s a goal that can’t be denied. I didn’t see that this off season.”
D'lo/Reaves/Vando/Bron/AD also won 70% of their games in the regular season and 65% if you include the playoffs. So you're taking a proven core and vastly upgrading the lead guard position if you want to go by that logic.
Agree or disagree but be authentic in your arguments to understand. To be deceptive muddies the water. We’re looking at 33 games with Dlo/AR/LBJ/Rui/AD, I shouldn’t even have to point it out…because we all know it goes without saying…that Vando missed almost the entire year so it’s not the same.
There's nothing deceptive about it. Just seems you didn't comprehend what I said. I used the exact same logic as you. The core with Vando starting instead of Rui played 37 games together and won at a 65% clip. They win at approximately the same rate whether it's Vando or Rui starting and also managed a top 10 offense and defense which you can't say about the Rui lineup. Rui would not be some irreplaceable loss like you're making it out to be. _________________ It was reminiscent of one of those Most Interesting Man in the World advertisements: "I don't always shoot 6-for-28 from the field, but when I do, I become the youngest player in league history to score 28,000 career points."
D'lo/Reaves/Vando/Bron/AD also won 70% of their games in the regular season and 65% if you include the playoffs. So you're taking a proven core and vastly upgrading the lead guard position if you want to go by that logic.
Agree or disagree but be authentic in your arguments to understand. To be deceptive muddies the water. We’re looking at 33 games with Dlo/AR/LBJ/Rui/AD, I shouldn’t even have to point it out…because we all know it goes without saying…that Vando missed almost the entire year so it’s not the same.
There's nothing deceptive about it. Just seems you didn't comprehend what I said. I used the exact same logic as you. The core with Vando starting instead of Rui played 37 games together and won at a 65% clip. They win at approximately the same rate whether it's Vando or Rui starting and also managed a top 10 offense and defense which you can't say about the Rui lineup. Rui would not be some irreplaceable loss like you're making it out to be.
I’m not making it out to be Rui isn’t replaceable, you made that up, that’s the deception type stuff. The team of Dlo/AR/LBJ/Rui/AD won actual games on the court such that only one should be replaced, and if Vando as a 6th shows that he is a close second then don’t include him in trades either with the other 3 as injury insurance. Use the one that wasn’t involved in the wins…Vincent…plus any one of Dlo/AR/Vando/Rui and picks to upgrade their position. My point is to recognize the 70% win rate…and according to you 65% win rate…and build on that instead of switching out that on court production for theoretical production on paper. I said it multiple times, trade any one of them…that includes Rui…not two.
It would be different if they limped into the playoffs, or got blown out in a couple of playoff games. But the players formed a team that did remarkably well under serval sets of difficult circumstances. Build on that. _________________ “When it looks as if it is a realistic possibility, I want to focus on winning a ship like it’s a goal that can’t be denied. I didn’t see that this off season.”
D'lo/Reaves/Vando/Bron/AD also won 70% of their games in the regular season and 65% if you include the playoffs. So you're taking a proven core and vastly upgrading the lead guard position if you want to go by that logic.
Agree or disagree but be authentic in your arguments to understand. To be deceptive muddies the water. We’re looking at 33 games with Dlo/AR/LBJ/Rui/AD, I shouldn’t even have to point it out…because we all know it goes without saying…that Vando missed almost the entire year so it’s not the same.
There's nothing deceptive about it. Just seems you didn't comprehend what I said. I used the exact same logic as you. The core with Vando starting instead of Rui played 37 games together and won at a 65% clip. They win at approximately the same rate whether it's Vando or Rui starting and also managed a top 10 offense and defense which you can't say about the Rui lineup. Rui would not be some irreplaceable loss like you're making it out to be.
I’m not making it out to be Rui isn’t replaceable, you made that up, that’s the deception type stuff.
You literally just said that if you trade both AR/Rui the team can't be upgraded because of the salary cap. _________________ It was reminiscent of one of those Most Interesting Man in the World advertisements: "I don't always shoot 6-for-28 from the field, but when I do, I become the youngest player in league history to score 28,000 career points."
With Vincent/JHSfino not playing well this season it would be a challenging offer so multiple draft picks would have to be used to get the type player for the price available. But I WOULD NOT trade more than one of Dlo/AR/Vando/Rui and even if one of them is traded it would have to be for a clear decisive upgrade at their position.
A 70% win rate as starters over 33 games and leading the Nuggets for 75% of the minutes is production on the court in real games that I’d want to continue to access as much as possible and would not sacrifice it completely for hypothetical wins on paper. Especially with an upgraded coach and an upgraded roster, (big body back up center, 3&D back up guard). The Lakers could possibly benefit from better injury luck but of course they can’t count on that. _________________ “When it looks as if it is a realistic possibility, I want to focus on winning a ship like it’s a goal that can’t be denied. I didn’t see that this off season.”
Last edited by Hanging from Rafters on Sat May 18, 2024 2:59 pm; edited 1 time in total
I can’t think of a more perfect fit for AD and Bron than Donovan.
Uhh…I can. Several in fact.
A SG in a point guard body, needs the ball in his hands almost all the time to be effective, as well as taking up ALL THE SHOTS at the cost of other players (he single handedly stunted Evan Mobley’s growth since he got to Cleveland), and would probably be a poor defender here especially due to his lack of size (I don’t believe him as a “plus defender” with the Cavs at all. I don’t buy it. Especially when he’s clearly surrounded by many, much better defenders on that team).
Hm next to Lebron, I don’t think he will do well. At the end of the day, Lebron will always be the main ball handler especially in the 4th, just dribbling the ball to death, and Donovan just spotting up. That’s not a fit. Not at all.
But you didn't name any. You shat on Spida and offered no alternatives.
O ... Ohhhh Can i play
Whats needed is not a STUPID ALL STAR specially one that NEEDS THE BALL
You need another catch and shoot
Monk
Huerter
Herro
Those three are catch and shoot snipers. Monk has played well with LBJ and the other two have been starters and help carry a team especailly Herro as Butler has been down plenty of times lately.
Want another Perimeter Defender incase Vando goes down again.
Bruce Bowen
Buy a late DraftPick- one as there are some in there
Would love to get back Stanely Johnson.
D'lo/Reaves/Vando/Bron/AD also won 70% of their games in the regular season and 65% if you include the playoffs. So you're taking a proven core and vastly upgrading the lead guard position if you want to go by that logic.
Agree or disagree but be authentic in your arguments to understand. To be deceptive muddies the water. We’re looking at 33 games with Dlo/AR/LBJ/Rui/AD, I shouldn’t even have to point it out…because we all know it goes without saying…that Vando missed almost the entire year so it’s not the same.
There's nothing deceptive about it. Just seems you didn't comprehend what I said. I used the exact same logic as you. The core with Vando starting instead of Rui played 37 games together and won at a 65% clip. They win at approximately the same rate whether it's Vando or Rui starting and also managed a top 10 offense and defense which you can't say about the Rui lineup. Rui would not be some irreplaceable loss like you're making it out to be.
I’m not making it out to be Rui isn’t replaceable, you made that up, that’s the deception type stuff.
You literally just said that if you trade both AR/Rui the team can't be upgraded because of the salary cap.
Said that and said that is the reason why I disagree with doing it. How could you spin that to think I meant Rui is unreplaceable?
Regardless of any perception, misinterpretation, misunderstandings, I want to make it clear that I don’t want to trade any more than one of Dlo/AR/Rui…and even then only for a clear upgrade at their position…because trading two of them reduces the possibility of taking advantage of what they have shown together as starters on the court. That is the ability to win enough games to look like a ship contender with better coaching and a better supporting cast. If two of them are gone, the on paper hypothetical win total is something I’m not comfortable with compared to the real on court win rate/quality/production already demonstrated.
That’s it. _________________ “When it looks as if it is a realistic possibility, I want to focus on winning a ship like it’s a goal that can’t be denied. I didn’t see that this off season.”
Donovan Mitchell has become the Lakers’ No. 1 trade target, per @jovanbuha (m.youtube.com/watch?v=aNIvBW…).
Los Angeles is prepared to aggressively pursue Mitchell, if he decides not to sign with the Cavaliers long-term.
The Lakers can offer up to three first-round picks — 2024, 2029, 2031 — in any potential deal for a star this offseason.
Honestly, I’m not mind gutting the team to pair Spyda and AD for the next 5 yrs
its not smart. AD has had one full season. Spida + junk when AD is out would be brutal out west.
Mitchell and AD is such a mid duo too, 2nd round exit at best.
On what are you basing that assessment?
Neither of those guys is going to be the number one on a championship team. Donovan Mitchell is gonna be 28 and he really isn't gonna get better. AD is already 31. Neither of those guys are MVP level, and that's what you need to build a championship team. I honestly would trade Davis while his value is high and gear up for the future because I highly doubt we will ever win a ring with him again.
Joined: 15 Sep 2012 Posts: 29773 Location: La La Land
Posted: Sat May 18, 2024 5:48 pm Post subject:
I just can't get behind bringing back our whole core and just doing a coaching change. Whether we trade for Donovan or somebody else, I'm open to it.
A coaching change isn't enough to take a team with the 15th best offensive rating , 16th best defensive rating to a championship. We are a repeated playin team. We did worse this past postseason than last. That's not a team close to a championship. Especially when you consider how little upside we have on our roster for player improvement. And the past coach already got the best we've ever seen out of some of these role players we have starting.
Don't get me wrong. I'm happy Ham is gone. There is room for improvement in terms of coaching. But the gap is too large to a championship without some major roster changes. _________________ "Every hurt is a lesson, and every lesson makes you better”
I just can't get behind bringing back our whole core and just doing a coaching change. Whether we trade for Donovan or somebody else, I'm open to it.
A coaching change isn't enough to take a team with the 15th best offensive rating , 16th best defensive rating to a championship. We are a repeated playin team. We did worse this past postseason than last. That's not a team close to a championship. Especially when you consider how little upside we have on our roster for player improvement. And the past coach already got the best we've ever seen out of some of these role players we have starting.
Don't get me wrong. I'm happy Ham is gone. There is room for improvement in terms of coaching. But the gap is too large to a championship without some major roster changes.
I just can't get behind bringing back our whole core and just doing a coaching change. Whether we trade for Donovan or somebody else, I'm open to it.
A coaching change isn't enough to take a team with the 15th best offensive rating , 16th best defensive rating to a championship. We are a repeated playin team. We did worse this past postseason than last. That's not a team close to a championship. Especially when you consider how little upside we have on our roster for player improvement. And the past coach already got the best we've ever seen out of some of these role players.
Don't get me wrong. I'm happy Ham is gone. There is room for improvement in terms of coaching. But the gap is too large to a championship without some major roster changes.
I get it man, I do. The bad taste of a 1st round loss, as a play-in team too, against the same team Nuggets again, that’s just too much, especially 1-4 with close losses like last time. But even tho I’ve been the biggest cheerleader for the core, I don’t want that either.
I just don’t want to underestimate the team’s real wins on the court while over estimating hypothetical wins on paper. A balance would be nice.
We switched out the ship team for Gasol/Trez and the hypothetical wins on paper didn’t materialize, should have stuck with the real wins on the court by Dwight/Magee/Rondo.
We switched out the next team for Westbrook and the hypothetical wins on paper didn’t materialized, should have stuck with Drummond/Schroeder.
We switched out the Westbrook team at the trade deadline the next year and won at an incredible rate going from 13th to 7th and the WCF, but didn’t start the starters until Feb of this year. The wins continued on the court afterwards so don’t switch it out for hypothetical wins on paper, it hasn’t worked in the past several times.
The real wins on the court have been at the highest rate since the ship, both at the trade deadline last season and once they got back in the rotation this year. Build on that! Trade only one of Dlo/AR/Rui/Vando with Vincent + picks, upgrade the bench and run that back with a better coach to take advantage of a group that have demonstrated the ability to get real wins on the court vs the failed attempt overestimating wins on paper. _________________ “When it looks as if it is a realistic possibility, I want to focus on winning a ship like it’s a goal that can’t be denied. I didn’t see that this off season.”
Prefer Dejounte over Mitchell and go after Bruce Brown.
Brown cashed in on his good season and since then has been pretty bad. Pass on Brown.
Brown admitted he was with a injury this past season, actually that’s a good idea DeJounte Murray and Bruce Brown is a nice haul
Ok guy so pretend that's let's play off the fact that he was injured and he's a good target.. why don't you propose a REALISTIC trade that somehow nets both guys and their salaries?
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