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Megaton
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Joined: 18 Feb 2015
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 Posted: Sat May 25, 2024 2:00 pm Post subject: |
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| MJST wrote: | | Bron2AD wrote: | | manlisten wrote: | | Is Herb Jones even on the trade block? He might be the best contract in the league. He makes the same as Reaves except he actually has accolades and is signed thru 2027. Don't see why NOLA would trade him. |
He is absolutely not on trade market. Fits in perfect with Zion and Murphy
There is a reason they will not extend Ingram and trade him this offseason |
if they let Ingram go, do you think they're 100% confident they can build around Zion, considering his health? |
I would assume yeah? Just because what other choice do they have? 
Their franchise is heavily relying upon Zion to take them to the promise land. So they will fully commit to that by getting pieces that fit with someone like him.
Herb is definitely one of those players that fit. 3 and D wing players don’t grow on trees and they are a premium in this league. In the case of Ingram, let’s be real: he was never a good fit with Zion. Ingram is a total black hole on offense, and his defense leaves a lot to be desired. Pelicans have always needed a good ball handling point guard to run the show and get Zion the ball/best opportunities to score. Ingram is not that guy obviously.
Zion could use someone like De'Aaron Fox. THAT PAIR would be an incredible fit.
_________________
Lakers Offseason Goal:
- Draft Zach Edey (or Kel'el Ware)
- Sign Jonas Valanciunas or Nicolas Claxton
- sign and trade DLO to not lose value
- sign a coach that’s not an idiot
Call it an offseason |
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manlisten
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Joined: 09 Jul 2004
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| Posted: Sat May 25, 2024 2:14 pm Post subject: |
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It's like when Rob said you can't buy a house that's not for sale. Don't think anyone disagrees that Herb would be a good fit. He's simply not available.
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lakersfever714
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Joined: 05 Jan 2016
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| Posted: Sat May 25, 2024 2:17 pm Post subject: |
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Zion is an injury waiting to happen, just like AD, Embiid and Kawhi. All these teams building around an injury proned player are gonna regret it.
It's hard enough to build a contending team and when you've actually accomplished that, your best player goes down in the playoffs and the whole season's done.
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Laker's Fan
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Joined: 27 Jun 2002
Posts: 12955
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| Posted: Sat May 25, 2024 2:26 pm Post subject: |
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| manlisten wrote: | | It's like when Rob said you can't buy a house that's not for sale. Don't think anyone disagrees that Herb would be a good fit. He's simply not available. |
When Rob said the first part, it felt like the reasoning of a functional manager, not an executive. Of course you can't show up and poach whatever you want. But you can put in place a plan to facilitate getting what you need later. That's what they did to land LeBron (who in all honesty may have given them the pathway through Klutch). But it seems that type of strategy isn't part of how they operate under Rob.
If you look at Presti, that's literally all he does. The interesting part for him is whether he knows when to push his chips in. Ainge was good at that too but got gun shy in Boston and let a couple of windows pass. Though you could say their current success is a vestige of his patience.
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Austin Reaves keeps his game tight, like Kobe Bryant on game night. |
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wolfpaclaker
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Joined: 29 May 2002
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| Posted: Sat May 25, 2024 2:32 pm Post subject: |
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We need to look for players that have length and defensive skills, but also can make some shots around AD/Bron. At each position. That's not easy to find, but if you scout the players well, it is possible.
Our best support players can make shots (Rui, Reaves, DLO) but cannot provide enough lenght/athleticism and consistent defensive shot challenging.
Should refrain from the pipe dreams. But if we really dig in to the league, I bet we could find some quality support players.
Murray is an interesting name. He has a wingspan of 6'9.5. Considering he would have a lesser role on offense, he is the sort of support player you move for. In the hopes that he would focus on defense and offense equally. Bringing in a good defensive coach would also be wise.
So lets say we brought in some length with Murray at PG. Then, we added some length at the 2 guard instead of Reaves. Suddenly, we're a lot more balanced and able to make adjustments defensively than we could not previously with our squad this past year. One of the main issues we have, we rely way too much on Reaves/DLO going off to play well. If they're having average games, we're usually in trouble. Just can't lock teams down. No defensive balance to match the output on offense. Play Vincent and Vanderbilt, now you may get defense, but AD/Bron are being doubled easily.
That should be the mindset we should have vs star chasing. Get better support players that can both give you some length/athleticism and some shot making around AD/Bron. Understand AD/Bron are not that good, that they can overcome the shortcomings that they once could in Pelinka's flawed roster building. |
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Megaton
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Joined: 18 Feb 2015
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| Posted: Sat May 25, 2024 2:42 pm Post subject: |
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| lakersfever714 wrote: | Zion is an injury waiting to happen, just like AD, Embiid and Kawhi. All these teams building around an injury proned player are gonna regret it.
It's hard enough to build a contending team and when you've actually accomplished that, your best player goes down in the playoffs and the whole season's done. |
Curry was pegged as an injury prone player for the first 5 or so years of his career. I don’t see the Warriors regretting sticking with him there.
In the case of AD, we have to have proper support for him to minimize injuries. Like having a Center next to him to ease him from doing all the work on both ends of the court, and having a guard who actually knows how to give him the ball besides LeBron and Reaves.
_________________
Lakers Offseason Goal:
- Draft Zach Edey (or Kel'el Ware)
- Sign Jonas Valanciunas or Nicolas Claxton
- sign and trade DLO to not lose value
- sign a coach that’s not an idiot
Call it an offseason |
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Bron2AD
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Joined: 01 Jun 2021
Posts: 9752
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| Posted: Sat May 25, 2024 2:50 pm Post subject: |
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| Megaton wrote: | | lakersfever714 wrote: | Zion is an injury waiting to happen, just like AD, Embiid and Kawhi. All these teams building around an injury proned player are gonna regret it.
It's hard enough to build a contending team and when you've actually accomplished that, your best player goes down in the playoffs and the whole season's done. |
Curry was pegged as an injury prone player for the first 5 or so years of his career. I don’t see the Warriors regretting sticking with him there.
In the case of AD, we have to have proper support for him to minimize injuries. Like having a Center next to him to ease him from doing all the work on both ends of the court, and having a guard who actually knows how to give him the ball besides LeBron and Reaves. |
Warriors didn’t stick with him. They were actively trying to trade curry.
In the Andrew bogut trade they were desperate to trade curry and keep Monta. Bucks were worst then warriors, they said no Monta no deal |
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venturalakersfan
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Location: The Gold Coast
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| Posted: Sat May 25, 2024 3:58 pm Post subject: |
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| Bron2AD wrote: | | ocho wrote: | | MJST wrote: | Guards aren't where the Lakers need help. It's defensive wings that can hit threes and centers who can play defense and rebound.
Enough with the "Sextons" and the "mitchells" and all the "murrays" and ESPECIALLY the "youngs". The Lakers don't need help at the guard position or in the backcourt. Not more than they need help at the wing defensively and from three and center position.
Players like Naji Marshall and Herb Jones are far more valuable to this team than players like Murray and Sexton and Garland whom wouldn't even be an ugrade. |
I’d do a big push to try and get Bridges. |
He going to Houston:
| Quote: | Nets owner Joe Tsai said yesterday the franchise is “at a crossroads” with their long-term direction (via @NetsPressIG).
Tsai mentioned Brooklyn’s roster will be revamped this offseason to compete “in the long run” rather than win immediately.
Tsai wants to take a “longer-term approach” and build a sustainable winner.
With the Rockets reportedly willing to offer back their future picks in exchange for the Suns’ selections, Brooklyn certainly appears ready to pivot towards a full-scale rebuild.
If the Nets indeed decide to go in this direction, Mikal Bridges and others could become available on the trade market.
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https://x.com/esidery/status/1794391232476586198?s=46 |
Our picks could have value there.
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venturalakersfan
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Location: The Gold Coast
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| Posted: Sat May 25, 2024 4:01 pm Post subject: |
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| manlisten wrote: | | Is Herb Jones even on the trade block? He might be the best contract in the league. He makes the same as Reaves except he actually has accolades and is signed thru 2027. Don't see why NOLA would trade him. |
They won’t, especially for a lazy player like Rui.
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RIP mom. 11-21-1933 to 6-14-2023. |
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venturalakersfan
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Location: The Gold Coast
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| Posted: Sat May 25, 2024 4:01 pm Post subject: |
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| manlisten wrote: | | Is Herb Jones even on the trade block? He might be the best contract in the league. He makes the same as Reaves except he actually has accolades and is signed thru 2027. Don't see why NOLA would trade him. |
Double post
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RIP mom. 11-21-1933 to 6-14-2023. |
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Japago
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Joined: 21 Jun 2018
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| Posted: Sat May 25, 2024 5:03 pm Post subject: |
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I just see AR as the more natural trade bait in these scenarios. He has more trade value while basically being at the same level of a player as DLo. He's actually under contract.
People like pairing AR with any guard in these hypothetical scenarios, but is he really a good fit next to a ball-dominant guard?
He still does prefer to handle the ball. He and DLo have been sharing the secondary ball-handler role to LeBron.
More importantly, his shooting is a little questionable now, much moreso than DLo's. I remember him having a big shooting slump at some point during the season. And, he was awful in the series against DEN.
I think I'd still prefer to keep him over DLo just because of the salaries, but I have no qualms about going with DLo over AR if trading AR gets better value. |
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jb2
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Joined: 03 Dec 2014
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| Posted: Sat May 25, 2024 5:29 pm Post subject: |
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| Bron2AD wrote: | | MJST wrote: | | Hanging from Rafters wrote: | | MJST wrote: | Guards aren't where the Lakers need help. It's defensive wings that can hit threes and centers who can play defense and rebound.
Enough with the "Sextons" and the "mitchells" and all the "murrays" and ESPECIALLY the "youngs". The Lakers don't need help at the guard position or in the backcourt. Not more than they need help at the wing defensively and from three and center position.
Players like Naji Marshall and Herb Jones are far more valuable to this team than players like Murray and Sexton and Garland whom wouldn't even be an ugrade. |
What you’re saying is somewhat true, the Lakers need a center that can rebound and play defense and they need a 3&D wing. But they absolutely also need a point of attack defender…not named Vincent…in the back court. I would say that C should be priority. Since the Lakers have Vando as a possibility along with Prince…which isn’t 3&D more like 3 or D…I’d make the POA defender in the backcourt the next thing after the center. If they are able to get a POA backcourt defender that isn’t a liability on offense that is also able to be a 3&D wing then bonus. That’s why Caruso and Murray are interesting upgrades imo. They are only 6’5” but capable of spending time at SF as well as defending POA in the backcourt.
We do agree on Sexton/Garland/Young and Mitchell too. We disagree on Murray tho. |
Point of attack defender in the backcourt? Then go with Max Christie and make Reaves the 6th man. You could also go get Naji Marshall whom is a free agent, and is a 3 point shooting defender whom was a solid defender on New Orleans.
Hypothetically, let's say the Lakers traded Hachimura and a 1st to New Orleans for Herb Jones, if New Orleans bit. And then picked up Naji Marshall in the off-season.
Starters:
DLO
Max Christie
Herb Jones
LeBron James
Anthony Davis
Bemch:
Gabe Vincent
Austin Reaves
Naji Marshall
Jarred Vanderbilt
Wood/ Draft Pick(Edey) / Jaxson
You have three solid to elite level defenders in the starting lineup in Christie, Jones and Davis. DLO, Christie and Jones are all good three point shooters, if LeBron carries over from last season he'd be solid enough. So defense and floor spacing with the starters.
Then with the bench you have the scoring of Reaves with the bench,the three point shooting of Marshall and (hopefully) Wood, then you have the defense of Vincent, Marshall, and Vanderbilt. And you can mix and match different offensive/defensive lineups but have the majority be shooters and/or defenders on the court at most times, at least 2 or 3 at a time.
That probably helps the Lakers more. |
If it’s fantasy talk why stop at Herb jones let’s go get Giannis |
Are there really paragraphs being written about Herb Jones as a viable option? |
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Palin
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Joined: 26 Feb 2008
Posts: 1840
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| Posted: Sun May 26, 2024 1:06 am Post subject: |
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| Mikal Bridges is realistic target? Maybe more than Mitchell? Not sure we can beat likes of Cavs, Rockets or Thunder |
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governator
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| Posted: Sun May 26, 2024 3:23 am Post subject: |
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| Palin wrote: | | Mikal Bridges is realistic target? Maybe more than Mitchell? Not sure we can beat likes of Cavs, Rockets or Thunder |
Those teams (including rockets, assuming they’ll improve)’ picks are most likely out of the lottery in the next 5 to even 7yrs considering how young these teams are. Our ‘29 & ‘31 oth, that’s looking like post AD lottery scenario, hard to top unless they want immediate picks
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“The main goal for the Lakers is to win a championship. All I care about, all we care about, is to raise another banner in the rafters.“ |
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lakersfever714
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Joined: 05 Jan 2016
Posts: 12325
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| Posted: Sun May 26, 2024 5:11 am Post subject: |
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| Megaton wrote: | | lakersfever714 wrote: | Zion is an injury waiting to happen, just like AD, Embiid and Kawhi. All these teams building around an injury proned player are gonna regret it.
It's hard enough to build a contending team and when you've actually accomplished that, your best player goes down in the playoffs and the whole season's done. |
Curry was pegged as an injury prone player for the first 5 or so years of his career. I don’t see the Warriors regretting sticking with him there.
In the case of AD, we have to have proper support for him to minimize injuries. Like having a Center next to him to ease him from doing all the work on both ends of the court, and having a guard who actually knows how to give him the ball besides LeBron and Reaves. |
It would be nice to have a HC that could utilize the entire team instead of over relying on AD. Back in our championship year, the team still could play decent even when AD sat out.
We need to get at least one big back, two would be great but every team is looking for one in order to counter Denver so bigs are at a premium rn. Without Jokic, bigs would not be as valuable and the Lakers current roster would be elite.
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vasashi17+
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Joined: 13 Dec 2019
Posts: 5767
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| Posted: Sun May 26, 2024 6:06 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | The Sixers do have their eyes on other lucrative-salary impact players just in case they don’t get George. That’s why they also are looking at potential free agents like the Los Angeles Lakers’ LeBron James and New York Knicks forward OG Anunoby. If not in free agency, the Sixers believe they can use their draft assets and available cap space to acquire a difference-maker via a trade. That has led to Miami Heat forward Jimmy Butler, Chicago Bulls guard Zach LaVine, and New Orleans Pelicans forward Brandon Ingram being among trade interests.
But that’s where James definitely would help out. The four-time MVP would have found a way to get Buddy Hield more involved in the first-round playoff series against the New York Knicks. The ball would have been in his hands instead of Embiid’s. The ball-dominant center had nine turnovers in Game 5 and averaged 4.2 during the series. And in regard to committing to three star-level players opposed to just building around Embiid and Maxey, the Sixers feel the data shows teams with three elite players go further in the postseason and win the title more often. – via The Philadelphia Inquirer
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Hanging from Rafters
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Joined: 31 Jul 2018
Posts: 4809
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| Posted: Sun May 26, 2024 7:47 am Post subject: |
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| Japago wrote: | I just see AR as the more natural trade bait in these scenarios. He has more trade value while basically being at the same level of a player as DLo. He's actually under contract.
People like pairing AR with any guard in these hypothetical scenarios, but is he really a good fit next to a ball-dominant guard?
He still does prefer to handle the ball. He and DLo have been sharing the secondary ball-handler role to LeBron.
More importantly, his shooting is a little questionable now, much moreso than DLo's. I remember him having a big shooting slump at some point during the season. And, he was awful in the series against DEN.
I think I'd still prefer to keep him over DLo just because of the salaries, but I have no qualms about going with DLo over AR if trading AR gets better value. |
The comparison from the league and Laker fans between Dlo & AR is really strange:
18ppg/3pt%41.5/3.1rpg/6.3apg/2.1topg/.9spg/.5bpg
15.9ppg/3pt%36.7/4.3rpg/5.5apg/2.1topg.8spg/.3bpg
The players aren’t too far apart, and AR is certainly a good player, but unquestionably Dlo is the better player by more than the ~$5m difference in their salary. Dlo is a better scorer, a better 3pt shooter, a better playmaker, with better assist/turnover ratio along with more spg/bpg. Sure, some of that is close, maybe negligible by itself, but when you start to stack up all the factors it becomes clear, other than fan preferences with bias, the Lakers would be much better off trading AR and keeping Dlo because of the false perception that AR is better making AR return more in a trade.
Few know this, fewer admit it because they like AR more, even fewer occasionally just can’t completely fake it and say they that are about the same. They are not the same, Dlo is a better NBA player by a significant enough margin to keep him over AR to win more games. AR’s trade value is higher because he is more marketable since he appeals more to a fanbase thus perhaps bringing in more revenue. If you want a fanbase to like the team more go with AR, if you want to win more games go with Dlo.
I don’t know if the fanbase is familiar with the old fable of the Emperor’s New Clothes. Google it if you don’t know and are interested. As an analogy, I’m the kid pointing out the obvious which should be obvious to everyone based on what we see and that is that the Emperor is naked. Dlo is better for the Lakers than AR and the Lakers should sell high to capitalize.
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“When it looks as if it is a realistic possibility, I want to focus on winning a ship like it’s a goal that can’t be denied. I didn’t see that this off season.”
Last edited by Hanging from Rafters on Sun May 26, 2024 7:55 am; edited 1 time in total |
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Reds622
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Joined: 22 May 2015
Posts: 1501
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| Posted: Sun May 26, 2024 7:54 am Post subject: |
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| Hanging from Rafters wrote: | | Japago wrote: | I just see AR as the more natural trade bait in these scenarios. He has more trade value while basically being at the same level of a player as DLo. He's actually under contract.
People like pairing AR with any guard in these hypothetical scenarios, but is he really a good fit next to a ball-dominant guard?
He still does prefer to handle the ball. He and DLo have been sharing the secondary ball-handler role to LeBron.
More importantly, his shooting is a little questionable now, much moreso than DLo's. I remember him having a big shooting slump at some point during the season. And, he was awful in the series against DEN.
I think I'd still prefer to keep him over DLo just because of the salaries, but I have no qualms about going with DLo over AR if trading AR gets better value. |
The comparison from the league and Laker fans between Dlo & AR is really strange:
18ppg/3pt%41.5/3.1rpg/6.3apg/2.1topg/.9spg/.5bpg
15.9ppg/3pt%36.7/4.3rpg/5.5apg/2.1topg.8spg/.3bpg
The players aren’t too far apart, and AR is certainly a good player, but unquestionably Dlo is the better player by more than the ~$5m difference in their salary. Dlo is a better scorer, a better 3pt shooter, a better playmaker, with better assist/turnover ratio along with more spg/bpg. Sure, some of that is close, maybe negligible by itself, but when you start to stack up all the factors it becomes clear, other than fan preferences with bias, the Lakers would be much better off trading AR and keeping Dlo because of the false perception that AR is better making AR return more in a trade.
Few know this, fewer admit it because they like AR more, even fewer occasionally just can’t completely fake it and say they that are about the same.
I don’t know if the fanbase is familiar with the old fable of the Emperor’s New Clothes. Google it if you don’t know and are interested. As an analogy, I’m the kid pointing out the obvious which should be obvious to everyone based on what we see and that is that the Emperor is naked. Dlo is better for the Lakers than AR and the Lakers should sell high to capitalize. |
Reaves shows up when the games get tougher and more physical. Russell tends to disappear. Reaves also initiates contact.. while Russell doesn’t. Russell is the better shooter, but tends to disappear when the games count.
Reaves is also on one of the best contracts in the league. |
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BILBJH
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Joined: 23 Jul 2020
Posts: 5207
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| Posted: Sun May 26, 2024 8:25 am Post subject: |
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I posted this before, but this is Jalen Brunson's numbers when he was playing with Luka compared to Reaves playing with LBJ.
Brunson vs. AR
I point this out because AR sacrifices his game so that Bron and AD can eat first.
As it should be in the same way Brunson sacrificed his game so Luka could eat.
But you can see the efficiency numbers are similar and if you gave Austin 30% usage vs. 20% usage which is what happened when Brunson moved to the Knicks, you'd see a similar improvement in numbers.
Brunson has better handles, so I'd say Austin might not be as good, but it's safe to say that we could feel a similar regret letting AR go for too cheap a price.
Steve Nash was a unicorn in terms of his late development but Reaves is still exceeding Nash at the same age
AR vs. Nash
Do I find it unlikely Austin ever comes close to achieving what Brunson or Nash has done?
I mean, I can agree I felt like giving up on Austin several times this season too, but then when I look at the numbers, I can't help but see how if he was given more responsibility, we could find ourselves really regretting letting him go cheaply.
I'd really like to see what AR can do with a coach who uses him better before we give up on him. |
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Hanging from Rafters
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Joined: 31 Jul 2018
Posts: 4809
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| Posted: Sun May 26, 2024 8:40 am Post subject: |
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| Reds622 wrote: | | Hanging from Rafters wrote: | | Japago wrote: | I just see AR as the more natural trade bait in these scenarios. He has more trade value while basically being at the same level of a player as DLo. He's actually under contract.
People like pairing AR with any guard in these hypothetical scenarios, but is he really a good fit next to a ball-dominant guard?
He still does prefer to handle the ball. He and DLo have been sharing the secondary ball-handler role to LeBron.
More importantly, his shooting is a little questionable now, much moreso than DLo's. I remember him having a big shooting slump at some point during the season. And, he was awful in the series against DEN.
I think I'd still prefer to keep him over DLo just because of the salaries, but I have no qualms about going with DLo over AR if trading AR gets better value. |
The comparison from the league and Laker fans between Dlo & AR is really strange:
18ppg/3pt%41.5/3.1rpg/6.3apg/2.1topg/.9spg/.5bpg
15.9ppg/3pt%36.7/4.3rpg/5.5apg/2.1topg.8spg/.3bpg
The players aren’t too far apart, and AR is certainly a good player, but unquestionably Dlo is the better player by more than the ~$5m difference in their salary. Dlo is a better scorer, a better 3pt shooter, a better playmaker, with better assist/turnover ratio along with more spg/bpg. Sure, some of that is close, maybe negligible by itself, but when you start to stack up all the factors it becomes clear, other than fan preferences with bias, the Lakers would be much better off trading AR and keeping Dlo because of the false perception that AR is better making AR return more in a trade.
Few know this, fewer admit it because they like AR more, even fewer occasionally just can’t completely fake it and say they that are about the same.
I don’t know if the fanbase is familiar with the old fable of the Emperor’s New Clothes. Google it if you don’t know and are interested. As an analogy, I’m the kid pointing out the obvious which should be obvious to everyone based on what we see and that is that the Emperor is naked. Dlo is better for the Lakers than AR and the Lakers should sell high to capitalize. |
Reaves shows up when the games get tougher and more physical. Russell tends to disappear. Reaves also initiates contact.. while Russell doesn’t. Russell is the better shooter, but tends to disappear when the games count.
Reaves is also on one of the best contracts in the league. |
Google “The Emperor’s New Clothes” if you’re interested. The tailors were very convincing such that the Emperor and the citizens bought into the deception. Dlo hit big 3pt shots at the end of the game to help secure the win against GSW/Mil and scored a late clutch layup basket in the playoffs against Den. There were many more. Both Reaves and Dlo have shown up and both have disappeared, it’s the deception that makes it seem one sided.
Dlo looks like he is a better NBA player by enough factors to not only justify the ~$5m difference in the contract but to also make Dlo a better value over all. Sure, sometimes looks can be deceiving, but that IS what it looks like.
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“When it looks as if it is a realistic possibility, I want to focus on winning a ship like it’s a goal that can’t be denied. I didn’t see that this off season.” |
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Denny_Russo
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Joined: 27 Jan 2016
Posts: 3091
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| Posted: Sun May 26, 2024 8:48 am Post subject: |
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| lakersfever714 wrote: | Zion is an injury waiting to happen, just like AD, Embiid and Kawhi. All these teams building around an injury proned player are gonna regret it.
It's hard enough to build a contending team and when you've actually accomplished that, your best player goes down in the playoffs and the whole season's done. |
Zion's problems also extend to Pels management and their inability to hold him accountable or fix the things that are causing his injuries. There are maybe 2-3 organizations that are bigger dumpster fires than the Pels right now. Everyone knows he is one wrong landing from being out for 2-3 months, and they always try to sidestep the issue by doing almost nothing to fix it.
That's why I don't really blame BI for any of their issues. Despite all of his injuries over the years, he was the one carrying that franchise to the playoffs, play-ins with CJ McCollum of all players as his second option, and he nearly succeeded in eliminating a 60+ win team.
Also, I read that he's more coveted than Trae and other stars, so it's possible he might be on his way out very soon. I just want to see how he does playing for a half-competent organization before writing him off completely.
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Starting anew. I'm retiring my main. |
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Itsowheeze
Starting Rotation
Joined: 10 May 2012
Posts: 744
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| Posted: Sun May 26, 2024 9:12 am Post subject: |
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| Bron2AD wrote: | | MJST wrote: | | Bron2AD wrote: | | MJST wrote: | | Hanging from Rafters wrote: | | MJST wrote: | Guards aren't where the Lakers need help. It's defensive wings that can hit threes and centers who can play defense and rebound.
Enough with the "Sextons" and the "mitchells" and all the "murrays" and ESPECIALLY the "youngs". The Lakers don't need help at the guard position or in the backcourt. Not more than they need help at the wing defensively and from three and center position.
Players like Naji Marshall and Herb Jones are far more valuable to this team than players like Murray and Sexton and Garland whom wouldn't even be an ugrade. |
What you’re saying is somewhat true, the Lakers need a center that can rebound and play defense and they need a 3&D wing. But they absolutely also need a point of attack defender…not named Vincent…in the back court. I would say that C should be priority. Since the Lakers have Vando as a possibility along with Prince…which isn’t 3&D more like 3 or D…I’d make the POA defender in the backcourt the next thing after the center. If they are able to get a POA backcourt defender that isn’t a liability on offense that is also able to be a 3&D wing then bonus. That’s why Caruso and Murray are interesting upgrades imo. They are only 6’5” but capable of spending time at SF as well as defending POA in the backcourt.
We do agree on Sexton/Garland/Young and Mitchell too. We disagree on Murray tho. |
Point of attack defender in the backcourt? Then go with Max Christie and make Reaves the 6th man. You could also go get Naji Marshall whom is a free agent, and is a 3 point shooting defender whom was a solid defender on New Orleans.
Hypothetically, let's say the Lakers traded Hachimura and a 1st to New Orleans for Herb Jones, if New Orleans bit. And then picked up Naji Marshall in the off-season.
Starters:
DLO
Max Christie
Herb Jones
LeBron James
Anthony Davis
Bemch:
Gabe Vincent
Austin Reaves
Naji Marshall
Jarred Vanderbilt
Wood/ Draft Pick(Edey) / Jaxson
You have three solid to elite level defenders in the starting lineup in Christie, Jones and Davis. DLO, Christie and Jones are all good three point shooters, if LeBron carries over from last season he'd be solid enough. So defense and floor spacing with the starters.
Then with the bench you have the scoring of Reaves with the bench,the three point shooting of Marshall and (hopefully) Wood, then you have the defense of Vincent, Marshall, and Vanderbilt. And you can mix and match different offensive/defensive lineups but have the majority be shooters and/or defenders on the court at most times, at least 2 or 3 at a time.
That probably helps the Lakers more. |
If it’s fantasy talk why stop at Herb jones let’s go get Giannis |
Giannis is a Superstar, Herb Jones is a solid role player that plays all-NBA level defense and is a good 3 point shooter. But he's not someone New Orleans is going to hinge their future on when they are one season away from letting Ingram walk and deciding if they can actually build around Zion(depending on his health etc).
The question becomes, do they want to be a 40-45 win team that has no chance at winning a title with what they have? Or do they take another first from the Lakers and bet on them being a lottery team within 3 seasons and benefit from their rebuild.
Timing is everything. |
There is not even a hint of Herb jones being on the trade market
Actually Herb jones is perfect fit with Zion and Murphy. They building around zion and that’s the reason bi is outta there |
If I was New Orleans. Zion and BI would be gone, They are both unreliable and injury prone. get rid of CJ while you're at it and get some good assets. If trae young comes you can build around trae young, Murphy and herb. Make a trade for Allen and you're in business. You have a lineup that can defend and shoot. |
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Kblo247!
Star Player
Joined: 05 Oct 2015
Posts: 4093
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| Posted: Sun May 26, 2024 10:11 am Post subject: |
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| Hanging from Rafters wrote: | | Japago wrote: | I just see AR as the more natural trade bait in these scenarios. He has more trade value while basically being at the same level of a player as DLo. He's actually under contract.
People like pairing AR with any guard in these hypothetical scenarios, but is he really a good fit next to a ball-dominant guard?
He still does prefer to handle the ball. He and DLo have been sharing the secondary ball-handler role to LeBron.
More importantly, his shooting is a little questionable now, much moreso than DLo's. I remember him having a big shooting slump at some point during the season. And, he was awful in the series against DEN.
I think I'd still prefer to keep him over DLo just because of the salaries, but I have no qualms about going with DLo over AR if trading AR gets better value. |
The comparison from the league and Laker fans between Dlo & AR is really strange:
18ppg/3pt%41.5/3.1rpg/6.3apg/2.1topg/.9spg/.5bpg
15.9ppg/3pt%36.7/4.3rpg/5.5apg/2.1topg.8spg/.3bpg
The players aren’t too far apart, and AR is certainly a good player, but unquestionably Dlo is the better player by more than the ~$5m difference in their salary. Dlo is a better scorer, a better 3pt shooter, a better playmaker, with better assist/turnover ratio along with more spg/bpg. Sure, some of that is close, maybe negligible by itself, but when you start to stack up all the factors it becomes clear, other than fan preferences with bias, the Lakers would be much better off trading AR and keeping Dlo because of the false perception that AR is better making AR return more in a trade.
Few know this, fewer admit it because they like AR more, even fewer occasionally just can’t completely fake it and say they that are about the same. They are not the same, Dlo is a better NBA player by a significant enough margin to keep him over AR to win more games. AR’s trade value is higher because he is more marketable since he appeals more to a fanbase thus perhaps bringing in more revenue. If you want a fanbase to like the team more go with AR, if you want to win more games go with Dlo.
I don’t know if the fanbase is familiar with the old fable of the Emperor’s New Clothes. Google it if you don’t know and are interested. As an analogy, I’m the kid pointing out the obvious which should be obvious to everyone based on what we see and that is that the Emperor is naked. Dlo is better for the Lakers than AR and the Lakers should sell high to capitalize. |
Now also add that Austin had better playoff numbers both their years together and that’s Austin’s playoff numbers are better than Russell’s playoff numbers in Brooklyn and Minnesota too.
Austin’s playoffs have always seen him be consistent. Dlos numbers see him regress and it’s 4 different samples with 3 different teams in terms of regression happening consistently.
Dlo averaged 14 in the playoffs this year. He averaged 13 before that. And he averaged 12 in Minnesota. All massive drops. Dlo shot 50% from the free throw line in the first round this year in games that were based off 1 point deciding who wins . He’s a career 31% guy from three in the playoffs. |
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LakerDYnasty72
Star Player
Joined: 18 Jul 2006
Posts: 4604
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| Posted: Sun May 26, 2024 10:28 am Post subject: |
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| Kblo247! wrote: | | Hanging from Rafters wrote: | | Japago wrote: | I just see AR as the more natural trade bait in these scenarios. He has more trade value while basically being at the same level of a player as DLo. He's actually under contract.
People like pairing AR with any guard in these hypothetical scenarios, but is he really a good fit next to a ball-dominant guard?
He still does prefer to handle the ball. He and DLo have been sharing the secondary ball-handler role to LeBron.
More importantly, his shooting is a little questionable now, much moreso than DLo's. I remember him having a big shooting slump at some point during the season. And, he was awful in the series against DEN.
I think I'd still prefer to keep him over DLo just because of the salaries, but I have no qualms about going with DLo over AR if trading AR gets better value. |
The comparison from the league and Laker fans between Dlo & AR is really strange:
18ppg/3pt%41.5/3.1rpg/6.3apg/2.1topg/.9spg/.5bpg
15.9ppg/3pt%36.7/4.3rpg/5.5apg/2.1topg.8spg/.3bpg
The players aren’t too far apart, and AR is certainly a good player, but unquestionably Dlo is the better player by more than the ~$5m difference in their salary. Dlo is a better scorer, a better 3pt shooter, a better playmaker, with better assist/turnover ratio along with more spg/bpg. Sure, some of that is close, maybe negligible by itself, but when you start to stack up all the factors it becomes clear, other than fan preferences with bias, the Lakers would be much better off trading AR and keeping Dlo because of the false perception that AR is better making AR return more in a trade.
Few know this, fewer admit it because they like AR more, even fewer occasionally just can’t completely fake it and say they that are about the same. They are not the same, Dlo is a better NBA player by a significant enough margin to keep him over AR to win more games. AR’s trade value is higher because he is more marketable since he appeals more to a fanbase thus perhaps bringing in more revenue. If you want a fanbase to like the team more go with AR, if you want to win more games go with Dlo.
I don’t know if the fanbase is familiar with the old fable of the Emperor’s New Clothes. Google it if you don’t know and are interested. As an analogy, I’m the kid pointing out the obvious which should be obvious to everyone based on what we see and that is that the Emperor is naked. Dlo is better for the Lakers than AR and the Lakers should sell high to capitalize. |
Now also add that Austin had better playoff numbers both their years together and that’s Austin’s playoff numbers are better than Russell’s playoff numbers in Brooklyn and Minnesota too.
Austin’s playoffs have always seen him be consistent. Dlos numbers see him regress and it’s 4 different samples with 3 different teams in terms of regression happening consistently.
Dlo averaged 14 in the playoffs this year. He averaged 13 before that. And he averaged 12 in Minnesota. All massive drops. Dlo shot 50% from the free throw line in the first round this year in games that were based off 1 point deciding who wins . He’s a career 31% guy from three in the playoffs. |
The trait that I appreciate most about AR is that he does not back down from the physicality of the game.
Talented players who embrace the physicality of the game will more often than not, do better than the players who shrink from it, especially in the playoffs. |
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Hanging from Rafters
Star Player
Joined: 31 Jul 2018
Posts: 4809
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| Posted: Sun May 26, 2024 11:52 am Post subject: |
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| MJST wrote: | | Hanging from Rafters wrote: | | MJST wrote: | Guards aren't where the Lakers need help. It's defensive wings that can hit threes and centers who can play defense and rebound.
Enough with the "Sextons" and the "mitchells" and all the "murrays" and ESPECIALLY the "youngs". The Lakers don't need help at the guard position or in the backcourt. Not more than they need help at the wing defensively and from three and center position.
Players like Naji Marshall and Herb Jones are far more valuable to this team than players like Murray and Sexton and Garland whom wouldn't even be an ugrade. |
What you’re saying is somewhat true, the Lakers need a center that can rebound and play defense and they need a 3&D wing. But they absolutely also need a point of attack defender…not named Vincent…in the back court. I would say that C should be priority. Since the Lakers have Vando as a possibility along with Prince…which isn’t 3&D more like 3 or D…I’d make the POA defender in the backcourt the next thing after the center. If they are able to get a POA backcourt defender that isn’t a liability on offense that is also able to be a 3&D wing then bonus. That’s why Caruso and Murray are interesting upgrades imo. They are only 6’5” but capable of spending time at SF as well as defending POA in the backcourt.
We do agree on Sexton/Garland/Young and Mitchell too. We disagree on Murray tho. |
Point of attack defender in the backcourt? Then go with Max Christie and make Reaves the 6th man. You could also go get Naji Marshall whom is a free agent, and is a 3 point shooting defender whom was a solid defender on New Orleans.
Hypothetically, let's say the Lakers traded Hachimura and a 1st to New Orleans for Herb Jones, if New Orleans bit. And then picked up Naji Marshall in the off-season.
Starters:
DLO
Max Christie
Herb Jones
LeBron James
Anthony Davis
Bemch:
Gabe Vincent
Austin Reaves
Naji Marshall
Jarred Vanderbilt
Wood/ Draft Pick(Edey) / Jaxson
You have three solid to elite level defenders in the starting lineup in Christie, Jones and Davis. DLO, Christie and Jones are all good three point shooters, if LeBron carries over from last season he'd be solid enough. So defense and floor spacing with the starters.
Then with the bench you have the scoring of Reaves with the bench,the three point shooting of Marshall and (hopefully) Wood, then you have the defense of Vincent, Marshall, and Vanderbilt. And you can mix and match different offensive/defensive lineups but have the majority be shooters and/or defenders on the court at most times, at least 2 or 3 at a time.
That probably helps the Lakers more. As Naji is a UFA right now, I think he's a definite wing the Lakers need to go after, for his defense and 3 point shooting. He's more or less what they wanted from Prince, but is an actual defender. |
Not sure what to make of that?!?! MaxC could develop into something special, and there are many good points you made, but to count on as MaxC as a starter?…as part of a ship run?…just doesn’t make sense for a plan A. Anything he gives next year imo has to be a surprise bonus.
It looks like it might just have to be an agree to disagree moment on this topic and move on. Even tho we agree on big C, it seems we’re too so far apart on our thought process after that.
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“When it looks as if it is a realistic possibility, I want to focus on winning a ship like it’s a goal that can’t be denied. I didn’t see that this off season.”
Last edited by Hanging from Rafters on Sun May 26, 2024 12:22 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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