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ocho
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 Posted: Thu Nov 10, 2022 6:49 am Post subject: |
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There’s no argument that management screwed things up and I’m not blaming it on AD but he’s just not the same guy anymore. He just isn’t. Neither is LeBron. If those two looked like their 2020 selves I’d want to trade whatever we had to get help around them. Those two just aren’t championship pillars anymore. It’s time to move on.
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KindCrippler2000
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| Posted: Thu Nov 10, 2022 6:50 am Post subject: |
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| SPO200 wrote: | | It's kinda impressive that a team with LeBron James and Anthony Davis keeps getting worse each season. |
They are obviously older and less effective, but it's more about how the league has evolved with respect to the three-point shot. It goes without saying that the 3pt shot is the ultimate equalizer in the modern era. If your stars can't shoot, then all teams have to do is pack the paint. This is an extremely effective strategy against players like Zion, and the Pels initial struggles are reflective of that, although they are more capable of figuring it out.
The team, as it's currently constructed, is probably really good if you go back 10 years. Today, all the mediocre squads can keep up with the star-studded teams because all it takes is having good shooters and a half decent defense. I suppose this is good in terms of the parity issues the league was previously facing. |
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kfkilla
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| Posted: Thu Nov 10, 2022 6:56 am Post subject: |
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| ocho wrote: | | There’s no argument that management screwed things up and I’m not blaming it on AD but he’s just not the same guy anymore. He just isn’t. Neither is LeBron. If those two looked like their 2020 selves I’d want to trade whatever we had to get help around them. Those two just aren’t championship pillars anymore. It’s time to move on. |
I always knew that post whatever peak that LeBron would take us was going to be rough. LeBron is the basketball spiritual devil. You get the riches and glory but when it comes time to pay you pay with your soul! I just didn’t think the downfall would be THIS fast. Boy oh boy am I happy we got that ring. Could you imagine if we didn’t? The last decade of Laker basketball would be garbage and so would the next. A generation of garbage basketball end to end. Right now it’s looking a ring sandwiched between10 years of garbage on each side. Brutal. |
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wolfpaclaker
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| Posted: Thu Nov 10, 2022 6:58 am Post subject: |
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ocho if your argument is we shouldn't trade 2 picls for Hield/Turner to improve things and instead trade AD, you should know I've said the same before the season began, and agree.
My main argument is that blaming AD and Lebron for getting older is not right. The Spurs and many other great cores got old. The onus was on the FO to assset manage well. They had a ridiculously decent situation. 2020 pick, 2021 pick, Caruso, KCP, Kuz, Green, McGee, Howard, THT on 2nd round rookie scale contract. I mean sure not a front runner team, but easily with older AD/Lebron we could be playoff level and have a chance in a 7 game series.
That's why I don't fault AD/Lebron for declining. Their decline was inevitable. The FO should have been ready and managed the assets around them well. Pelinka being a novice got exposed. He made some justifiable moves with Dennis/Trez (even though I was against both) but at least it kept the team young athetic and deep. Even if the fit wasn't great the team had a young active deep team around AD/Lebron. Then .....2021 summer happens. |
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ThePageDude
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| Posted: Thu Nov 10, 2022 7:03 am Post subject: |
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| PenG_ wrote: | | Rob the type of dude to throw a pizza party for morale |
.. with a concluding speech that tells the story of how he and Kobe met the Dalai Lama and the Dalai Lama told them that it was the number on the front that mattered and not the name on the back. |
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ocho
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| Posted: Thu Nov 10, 2022 7:06 am Post subject: |
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These versions of LeBron and Davis without Westbrook and with current Kuz, Caruso, Green, McGee, Howard and THT is a better team but it’s not a championship team. The Spurs extended their window by drafting an mvp caliber player with a mid 1st round pick. Any team is still generally going to only go as far as your stats can take you. They aren’t those guys anymore. They’d look more respectable with a competent roster around them but it’s a joke to think they’d compete seriously with the elite teams of the league. They’re both already hurt and we are 11 games in.
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ThePageDude
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| Posted: Thu Nov 10, 2022 7:07 am Post subject: |
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| ocho wrote: | | There’s no argument that management screwed things up and I’m not blaming it on AD but he’s just not the same guy anymore. He just isn’t. Neither is LeBron. If those two looked like their 2020 selves I’d want to trade whatever we had to get help around them. Those two just aren’t championship pillars anymore. It’s time to move on. |
I agree but in the long list of problems we have AD is lower on the list then numerous others e.g. roster balance, fall-off of talent, Lebron's fall off off a cliff, lack of length, lack of shooting, lack of an inside presence, Westbrook's fit, cap constraints, abysmal decision-making, suspect management culture etc. etc. etc.) |
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wolfpaclaker
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| Posted: Thu Nov 10, 2022 7:12 am Post subject: |
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| ocho wrote: | | These versions of LeBron and Davis without Westbrook and with current Kuz, Caruso, Green, McGee, Howard and THT is a better team but it’s not a championship team. The Spurs extended their window by drafting an mvp caliber player with a mid 1st round pick. Any team is still generally going to only go as far as your stats can take you. They aren’t those guys anymore. They’d look more respectable with a competent roster around them but it’s a joke to think they’d compete seriously with the elite teams of the league. They’re both already hurt and we are 11 games in. |
I think we'd be like the Clippers. If you look at the Clips, they've been hovering where we were 2 years ago. They're praying Kawhi gets healthy with PG at the right time. I think that's where we'd be like. We're that 5th-6th seed tha gets hot at the right time and stars are healthy and it's a team you don't want to face.
But we'll never know, I guess. It's hard for me to agree with you ocho because I'll say this. If you look at late April 2021. That's what 18 months ago? We're up 2-1 on the Suns. Lebron looked off that whole series with him having just returned from an injury. Even then we looked like we could and would take the Suns out, until AD got hurt in game 4. At the very least, we showed we're capable to play with the team that won the west that year in a 7 game setting. That's what I mean. There's no way that playoff series Lebron looked like a MVP. Yet, we were right there and capable to beat that Suns team until AD went down.
So yeah, I agree odds aren't in their favour, but no way I agree that it was totally out of the question for AD/Lebron to have another playoff run or two. |
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ocho
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| Posted: Thu Nov 10, 2022 7:13 am Post subject: |
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| ThePageDude wrote: | | ocho wrote: | | There’s no argument that management screwed things up and I’m not blaming it on AD but he’s just not the same guy anymore. He just isn’t. Neither is LeBron. If those two looked like their 2020 selves I’d want to trade whatever we had to get help around them. Those two just aren’t championship pillars anymore. It’s time to move on. |
I agree but in the long list of problems we have AD is lower on the list then numerous others e.g. roster balance, fall-off of talent, Lebron's fall off off a cliff, lack of length, lack of shooting, lack of an inside presence, Westbrook's fit, cap constraints, abysmal decision-making, suspect management culture etc. etc. etc.) |
Nobody is saying it’s the biggest issue but go look at film of AD during the championship season or any of his years in New Orleans and tell me I’m looking at the same guy.
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yinoma2001
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| Posted: Thu Nov 10, 2022 7:14 am Post subject: |
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Can someone hire a tutor for Rob on how to be a "GM?"
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defense
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| Posted: Thu Nov 10, 2022 7:15 am Post subject: |
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From all of Laker fans to you
PELINKA YOU SUCK! |
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defense
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| Posted: Thu Nov 10, 2022 7:16 am Post subject: |
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| yinoma2001 wrote: | | Can someone hire a tutor for Rob on how to be a "GM?" |
There has got to be a YouTube tutorial or something |
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wolfpaclaker
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| Posted: Thu Nov 10, 2022 7:16 am Post subject: |
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For reference ocho, in that Suns series here's Lebron's numbers
23.3 ppg TS 56.4% and yet we were more than capable to beat the Suns with AD wit the likes of Drummond, KCP, Dennis, Caruso, Kuzma etc.
It's really that you took away an elite defensive coach's entire talent group, and style of play, and then you also can't rely on Lebron to be Luka Doncic like anymore and carry a team (And AD never was that guy anyway). When a superstar has a lack of talent around him, in their primes they can carry those teams to the playoffs (Kobe, Lebron etc all could, and Luka types can now).
When stars get old though, they can still peak at the right time. That's how AD/Lebron were and should have been supported in such a way. The Clippers are doing a solid job of that for Kawhi/PG. The Clips are loaded with NBA level quality role players who can get the job done on a nightly basis. We aren't, and we expect our coaches "culture" to change things magically. That's the root issue here, IMO. |
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ThePageDude
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| Posted: Thu Nov 10, 2022 7:23 am Post subject: |
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| ocho wrote: | | ThePageDude wrote: | | ocho wrote: | | There’s no argument that management screwed things up and I’m not blaming it on AD but he’s just not the same guy anymore. He just isn’t. Neither is LeBron. If those two looked like their 2020 selves I’d want to trade whatever we had to get help around them. Those two just aren’t championship pillars anymore. It’s time to move on. |
I agree but in the long list of problems we have AD is lower on the list then numerous others e.g. roster balance, fall-off of talent, Lebron's fall off off a cliff, lack of length, lack of shooting, lack of an inside presence, Westbrook's fit, cap constraints, abysmal decision-making, suspect management culture etc. etc. etc.) |
Nobody is saying it’s the biggest issue but go look at film of AD during the championship season or any of his years in New Orleans and tell me I’m looking at the same guy. |
Yes I agreed with you. |
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wolfpaclaker
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| Posted: Thu Nov 10, 2022 7:29 am Post subject: |
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| ThePageDude wrote: | | ocho wrote: | | ThePageDude wrote: | | ocho wrote: | | There’s no argument that management screwed things up and I’m not blaming it on AD but he’s just not the same guy anymore. He just isn’t. Neither is LeBron. If those two looked like their 2020 selves I’d want to trade whatever we had to get help around them. Those two just aren’t championship pillars anymore. It’s time to move on. |
I agree but in the long list of problems we have AD is lower on the list then numerous others e.g. roster balance, fall-off of talent, Lebron's fall off off a cliff, lack of length, lack of shooting, lack of an inside presence, Westbrook's fit, cap constraints, abysmal decision-making, suspect management culture etc. etc. etc.) |
Nobody is saying it’s the biggest issue but go look at film of AD during the championship season or any of his years in New Orleans and tell me I’m looking at the same guy. |
Yes I agreed with you. |
I actually do watch the highlights sometimes, and I think the biggest thing/change I see is AD is heavier. Someone seems to have convinced him he needs to get bulkier and play more 5. He was far better being leaner like when he first came to LA. Maybe that's just me, but it seems he was a little leaner in 19-20 then began to bulk up 20-21/21-22 to now. Anyone else see the change in his "bulkiness" or am I imagining this? |
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ocho
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| Posted: Thu Nov 10, 2022 7:39 am Post subject: |
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| wolfpaclaker wrote: | For reference ocho, in that Suns series here's Lebron's numbers
23.3 ppg TS 56.4% and yet we were more than capable to beat the Suns with AD wit the likes of Drummond, KCP, Dennis, Caruso, Kuzma etc.
It's really that you took away an elite defensive coach's entire talent group, and style of play, and then you also can't rely on Lebron to be Luka Doncic like anymore and carry a team (And AD never was that guy anyway). When a superstar has a lack of talent around him, in their primes they can carry those teams to the playoffs (Kobe, Lebron etc all could, and Luka types can now).
When stars get old though, they can still peak at the right time. That's how AD/Lebron were and should have been supported in such a way. The Clippers are doing a solid job of that for Kawhi/PG. The Clips are loaded with NBA level quality role players who can get the job done on a nightly basis. We aren't, and we expect our coaches "culture" to change things magically. That's the root issue here, IMO. |
I can’t think of many championship teams that were led by a couple of guys out of their prime. Or guys that can’t stay healthy. The Clippers are a great example of who I think we’d be with competent management. They’ve got great supporting talent but they need their stars to put them over the top and they can’t do it.
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ocho
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| Posted: Thu Nov 10, 2022 7:40 am Post subject: |
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| wolfpaclaker wrote: | | ThePageDude wrote: | | ocho wrote: | | ThePageDude wrote: | | ocho wrote: | | There’s no argument that management screwed things up and I’m not blaming it on AD but he’s just not the same guy anymore. He just isn’t. Neither is LeBron. If those two looked like their 2020 selves I’d want to trade whatever we had to get help around them. Those two just aren’t championship pillars anymore. It’s time to move on. |
I agree but in the long list of problems we have AD is lower on the list then numerous others e.g. roster balance, fall-off of talent, Lebron's fall off off a cliff, lack of length, lack of shooting, lack of an inside presence, Westbrook's fit, cap constraints, abysmal decision-making, suspect management culture etc. etc. etc.) |
Nobody is saying it’s the biggest issue but go look at film of AD during the championship season or any of his years in New Orleans and tell me I’m looking at the same guy. |
Yes I agreed with you. |
I actually do watch the highlights sometimes, and I think the biggest thing/change I see is AD is heavier. Someone seems to have convinced him he needs to get bulkier and play more 5. He was far better being leaner like when he first came to LA. Maybe that's just me, but it seems he was a little leaner in 19-20 then began to bulk up 20-21/21-22 to now. Anyone else see the change in his "bulkiness" or am I imagining this? |
He definitely looks fat and out of shape to me and did last year too. The thing that jumps out watching old film is how he used to move. Nimble and quick and flying up the court. Moved like a guard. Now he moves like a plodding center most of the time.
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vasashi17+
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| Posted: Thu Nov 10, 2022 7:43 am Post subject: |
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| ocho wrote: | | kfkilla wrote: | | SPO200 wrote: | | It's kinda impressive that a team with LeBron James and Anthony Davis keeps getting worse each season. |
I was thinking about this. How is this even possible? You have to TRY to be this bad. |
Because those two keep getting worse every season. |
TF?! They keep getting worse cause they ain’t getting the right players around them.
A soon to be 38 y/o is logging minutes at the rate that his 20 something contemporaries are. Bron’s played 3 fewer total minutes than Morant and has played in 1 less game than dude (Ja suited up for 11 vs Bron’s 10)….on a bad toe and with this insane so-cal bug. Think about that for a minute. Dude was forced to play full time point, something he hadn’t done since 19 games if his rookie campaign) for that 2019/20 team, cause Kawhi played our FO.
AD has repeatedly wanted to play the 4 and they keep “budgeting” vet min platoons around dude at the 5.
If you’re going to invest in those two, commit to it! You don’t botch 2018/19 free agency. You don’t botch hiring a Bron coach. You don’t leak blaming the Russ deal on that duo.
They played over their heads in the bubble and I admire their efforts in playing over their heads yet again in the beginning of this season to put up respectable defensive stats (Russ included). But this FO continuously sets them up to fail. That’s undeniable at this point.
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Last edited by vasashi17+ on Thu Nov 10, 2022 7:53 am; edited 1 time in total |
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Aeneas Hunter
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| Posted: Thu Nov 10, 2022 7:52 am Post subject: |
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| vasashi17+ wrote: | | TF?! They keep getting worse cause they ain’t getting the right players around them. |
We agree about a lot of the other stuff, but let's not gloss over the fact that Lebron and Davis have declined. Sure, some portion is attributable to the supporting cast. Not all of it.
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ocho
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| Posted: Thu Nov 10, 2022 7:53 am Post subject: |
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Is there another 7 footer in the NBA that whines this much about playing Center? Freaking LeBron played C last year when we needed him to and I don’t recall him complaining about it.
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ThePageDude
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| Posted: Thu Nov 10, 2022 7:59 am Post subject: |
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| ocho wrote: | | Is there another 7 footer in the NBA that whines this much about playing Center? Freaking LeBron played C last year when we needed him to and I don’t recall him complaining about it. |
Maybe. But he does happen to be right, the Lakers would have been, and would be, best served by playing him primarily at the 4, situationally at the 5. |
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PenG_
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| Posted: Thu Nov 10, 2022 8:00 am Post subject: |
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| ocho wrote: | | Is there another 7 footer in the NBA that whines this much about playing Center? Freaking LeBron played C last year when we needed him to and I don’t recall him complaining about it. |
To be fair LeBron was in that position for offense, and pretty much only when both teams went small. Defensively, LeBron was a center in name only. Not a knock or anything, just noting it was a much less taxing responsibility. |
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vasashi17+
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| Posted: Thu Nov 10, 2022 8:02 am Post subject: |
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Rob was in charge of getting Kob’s “highest paid player” extension after his Achilles tore. As a result, Kob had to defend himself from the whole selfish player / not putting team over self by delaying his extension” narrative… Or did y’all forget?
https://ftw.usatoday.com/2013/11/nba-kobe-bryant-contract-extension-twitter
Fast forward to dude “care taking” Bron’s legacy…preaching about how 2023 will give us flexibility to construct the right roster, only to then limit that flexibility with a Bron extension.
https://twitter.com/JabariDavisNBA/status/1589866800564834305
I don’t care if you agree with me or not…from bubble roster to now, dude has always been ass in roster construction. Credit goes to the coaches/players that played over their heads in spite of dude staying ass at bball ops.
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ocho
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| Posted: Thu Nov 10, 2022 8:03 am Post subject: |
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| ThePageDude wrote: | | ocho wrote: | | Is there another 7 footer in the NBA that whines this much about playing Center? Freaking LeBron played C last year when we needed him to and I don’t recall him complaining about it. |
Maybe. But he does happen to be right, the Lakers would have been, and would be, best served by playing him primarily at the 4, situationally at the 5. |
Played most of his minutes at C in the Bubble and wrecked the whole league. I’m just curious if he’s the only player his size who objects this much to playing the position. Can’t think of a single other player.
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wolfpaclaker
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| Posted: Thu Nov 10, 2022 8:08 am Post subject: |
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| ocho wrote: | | ThePageDude wrote: | | ocho wrote: | | Is there another 7 footer in the NBA that whines this much about playing Center? Freaking LeBron played C last year when we needed him to and I don’t recall him complaining about it. |
Maybe. But he does happen to be right, the Lakers would have been, and would be, best served by playing him primarily at the 4, situationally at the 5. |
Played most of his minutes at C in the Bubble and wrecked the whole league. I’m just curious if he’s the only player his size who objects this much to playing the position. Can’t think of a single other player. |
He only went to full time at the 5 in the Heat series because the Heat went small. We faced 2 small ball teams, Miami and Houston. In those situations we relied a lot on him and Kieff. That made sense. But if you look at the Denver and Portland series, we started McGee and or Howard most of the games.
I am sure when the teams play against small ball teams, he will up his minutes willingly. It's that night in and night out in the RS, and overall with our lack of size at the perimeter defensively, it made little sense to marry him to the 5.
For the record I checked, and Howard/McGee started 18 of our 21 games, ocho. At the 5. And Kieff started 2 as well. So AD only started full time at the 5 in 1 game, according to Bref. I know he upped his minutes in the bubble at the 5, but it was also match up warranted. We played the smallest team in league history in Houston and Miami went very small after game 1. |
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