We aren’t athletic enough to win.

 
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 07, 2024 3:55 pm    Post subject: We aren’t athletic enough to win.

I don’t believe this roster is athletic enough to compete against teams, especially young teams & especially in the playoffs we get outplayed & outworked! Seems like we keep adding non athletic players obviously with less talent last 2 years!

Look at current roster, I would say LBJ, AD, Rui, Vando, Christie, while Hayes & Reddish, Lewis are athletic but not good.
But AR, D-lo, Wood, JHS, Bronny, Knecht, while Gabe maybe a tweener?
This maybe solved since Ham is gone & if Vando & Rui get plent of time & roster stays relatively healthy!

Not falling behind by double digits in first quarter I believe was it a coaching problem or a lackadaisical starting 5? Much has be said about D-lo & AR backcourt & majority of everyone believes something needs to change. I prefer a quicker PG. But our roster has some slow footed basketball players who are usually a step slow on defense getting blown by hoping AD is there, but this goes to the why we can’t get a legit half decent center so AD can help out, etc, etc.

Hopefully Knecht, Christie Gabe, Rui & if Wood gets his head on straight & the led out will prove me wrong but drafting & signing slow players for half your team isn’t a good recipe for winning! I noticed this once I saw us draft JHS, watching Wood play & rookies that teams like OKC, SAC, MAGIC, KNICKS, SIXERS, BASICALLY any young team is gonna wanna whoop our butts & we have ABSOLUTELY NO QUICKNESS TO STOP them from doing so with this roster!!!
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 08, 2024 6:00 am    Post subject:

I agree, we lack speed, agility and the ability to win on effort plays. We also lack a dog. Someone to mix it up and get in opposing players heads.
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 08, 2024 1:00 pm    Post subject:

The most frustrating was playing the Phoenix Suns in 2005-2007. We were totally outclassed athletically and it was just awful to see them dunk on us and fast break us to death. There are ways to slow down the game though.
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 08, 2024 1:01 pm    Post subject:

We aren’t good* enough to win.
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 08, 2024 4:52 pm    Post subject:

We aren’t athletic enough to play good enough DEFENSE to win..

(FIXED)
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 08, 2024 4:58 pm    Post subject:

With no Ja in Memphis last year. And an unexpectedly healthy Bron and Brow.
We were a play-in team last year.

I keep saying it. We are just as likely to not make the playoffs as we are to make it.

I have Dallas, Minny, Denver, OKC, Memphis as locks.

That leaves 3 spots for Suns, Pelicans, Kings, and us.

That's betting on the Rockets, Warriors, Clips, and San Antonio not overachieving.
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 08, 2024 5:11 pm    Post subject:

It sure looks true on paper but do we overlook what we saw on the court? Maybe it’s wishful optimistic delusions…reasonably logic does seem to indicate that a change is needed theoretically…but the best starters won the IST ship. Three of them got benched and the starters that replaced them got blown out every 1st quarter for a bad losing stretch. Then when the best starters got back in the starting line up the team won 23 of 33 against mostly top 4 seeds and playoff teams. A winning rate good enough to have defended the IST champ win to be the #1 seed in the Western Conf.

Sure, they ultimately lost in the 1st round but even then they led for 70% of the minutes with poor coaching and injuries to 2 or 3 of the top 5 reserves in Cam/Vando/Wood with no shows for Dinwiddie/Vincent.

Upgrade coaching, backup front court rebounding, backup back court defense, and it looks like this team…with how they played prior season after the trade deadline, up to the IST ship last season, during Feb/Mar/Apr this past season, and for 70% of the minutes in the playoffs…could be better than we think they are on paper based on what they did on the court.
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 08, 2024 5:34 pm    Post subject:

Our 55th pick is pretty athletic
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 08, 2024 5:43 pm    Post subject:

Of course not.
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 08, 2024 8:05 pm    Post subject:

kikanga wrote:
With no Ja in Memphis last year. And an unexpectedly healthy Bron and Brow.
We were a play-in team last year.

I keep saying it. We are just as likely to not make the playoffs as we are to make it.

I have Dallas, Minny, Denver, OKC, Memphis as locks.

That leaves 3 spots for Suns, Pelicans, Kings, and us.

That's betting on the Rockets, Warriors, Clips, and San Antonio not overachieving.

You can say "we were a play-in team" but we won 47 games, that would have been 5th in the east for context. The year before, with the same core, we went to the WCF. Ham refused to even start that WCF lineup until half the season was over, spent a month benching DLO and AR. Ham was a poison, had the locker room against him, vibes were low, etc.

Vando being injured most of the year hurt a lot and Ham being the worst coach in NBA history also hurt a lot. Both of those, hopefully, are fixed this year with a much better coaching staff and Vando healthy. How many game difference do you think that would change? 5-10? Puts us at 52-57 wins.

Everyone is severely underrating our roster.
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 08, 2024 8:33 pm    Post subject:

Day wrote:


Everyone is severely underrating our roster.

Underrating how?
Wood- no one wants him. Kidd couldn’t get rid of him fast enough
Reddish- 30 dnps in a row from a defensive minded coach on nyk
Dlo- no one wanted him. Puts up numbers yet no takers. Doesn’t start for a contender out west
Hayes- ehh.
Rui- we overate him
Vandy- solid one dimensional player
Bron- pristinely healthy
AD - great season
Reaves- solid

Playin and bounced.
Seems like we overrate the team
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 08, 2024 9:18 pm    Post subject:

Halflife wrote:
Day wrote:


Everyone is severely underrating our roster.

Underrating how?
Wood- no one wants him. Kidd couldn’t get rid of him fast enough
Reddish- 30 dnps in a row from a defensive minded coach on nyk
Dlo- no one wanted him. Puts up numbers yet no takers. Doesn’t start for a contender out west
Hayes- ehh.
Rui- we overate him
Vandy- solid one dimensional player
Bron- pristinely healthy
AD - great season
Reaves- solid

Playin and bounced.
Seems like we overrate the team

We had the worst coach in the history of the NBA and a ton of injuries, we still won 47 games. The year before went from 13th seed to the WCF with this core. Were we not a contender? I'd argue we were the 2nd best team in the league that year and that was with dlo being a starter so obviously he can be a starter on a contending team. Yes, he has a bad matchup vs the Nuggets but that doesn't mean he didn't play well vs GSW and MEM that year and he had a couple of good games against DEN this year.

You can't have all NBA players at every position.
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 08, 2024 9:27 pm    Post subject:

We've always been at our best when we play fast-break basketball. But both our starting guards aren't quick or athletic enough to create fast-break opportunities or to apply defensive pressure.

That's why I say our biggest need is an upgrade as far as a ball-handling guard. In other words, a quicker DLO with more burst who actually plays up to his standards in the playoffs. That alone could get us a few more wins.

After that, we need a legit 3-and-D wing who is reasonably quick and athletic.

But besides that, we appear to have the foundation of a championship contender.
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 08, 2024 9:56 pm    Post subject:

slavavov wrote:
We've always been at our best when we play fast-break basketball. But both our starting guards aren't quick or athletic enough to create fast-break opportunities or to apply defensive pressure.

That's why I say our biggest need is an upgrade as far as a ball-handling guard. In other words, a quicker DLO with more burst who actually plays up to his standards in the playoffs. That alone could get us a few more wins.

After that, we need a legit 3-and-D wing who is reasonably quick and athletic.

But besides that, we appear to have the foundation of a championship contender.


A quicker, better ball handling guard, and a legit 3-and-D wing would help but those…by far…are not the biggest needs based on analysis and statistics. The biggest deficiencies are back court defense and front court rebounding. Turnovers, FT%, and 3pt volume factor in as well but hopefully better coaching to focus more on those things take care of those but a guard point of attack defender and a big back up C that can make the team less of a pushover in the paint when AD isn’t in the game is what the Lakers need to improve.
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 08, 2024 10:19 pm    Post subject:

The non-LBJ/AD Laker team that defeated the Cs put on full display what can happen when the energy is allowed to blossom and put on full display the talents that actually exists on last year's roster, which is essentially the upcoming roster.
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 08, 2024 11:55 pm    Post subject:

Hanging from Rafters wrote:
slavavov wrote:
We've always been at our best when we play fast-break basketball. But both our starting guards aren't quick or athletic enough to create fast-break opportunities or to apply defensive pressure.

That's why I say our biggest need is an upgrade as far as a ball-handling guard. In other words, a quicker DLO with more burst who actually plays up to his standards in the playoffs. That alone could get us a few more wins.

After that, we need a legit 3-and-D wing who is reasonably quick and athletic.

But besides that, we appear to have the foundation of a championship contender.


A quicker, better ball handling guard, and a legit 3-and-D wing would help but those…by far…are not the biggest needs based on analysis and statistics. The biggest deficiencies are back court defense and front court rebounding. Turnovers, FT%, and 3pt volume factor in as well but hopefully better coaching to focus more on those things take care of those but a guard point of attack defender and a big back up C that can make the team less of a pushover in the paint when AD isn’t in the game is what the Lakers need to improve.

Analytics and statistics can be really misleading.

Yes, we need more backcourt defense. But bringing in a ball-handling guard with more quickness and burst would help with that, because he would at least have the footspeed to stay in front of his man. He could even allow us to trap and press on the perimeter at times, since that footspeed would allow him to help and recover.

You're also right about defensive rebounding, that is a huge weakness for us.

But a quicker ball-handling guard who can create pace would also take some pressure off of our defense and rebounding by allowing us to get more easy baskets, which would allow us to set up our defense and stymie runs by opponents.

Sometimes it's more important to lean in on your strengths than to fixate too much on totally fixing weaknesses.
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 09, 2024 3:53 am    Post subject:

Are Steph Curry and Klay Thompson athletic? They've won quite a few rings.

We were 3-1 against the "athletic" Thunder last season btw.
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 09, 2024 4:49 am    Post subject:

Our dark horse chance hinges on AD taking another step in his game into MVP/DPOY territory, he can do it, he was in the playoff… oh, and develop a 3pt shot
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 09, 2024 5:34 am    Post subject:

lakersfever714 wrote:
Are Steph Curry and Klay Thompson athletic? They've won quite a few rings.

We were 3-1 against the "athletic" Thunder last season btw.


Wiggins
Poole
Green
Curry (2022 version)
Klay (2022 version)
Kuminga
Payton
Wiseman
Porter Jr
Lee
Tuscano-Anderson
Moody

No comparison to our current roster really.
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 09, 2024 9:12 am    Post subject:

slavavov wrote:
Hanging from Rafters wrote:
slavavov wrote:
We've always been at our best when we play fast-break basketball. But both our starting guards aren't quick or athletic enough to create fast-break opportunities or to apply defensive pressure.

That's why I say our biggest need is an upgrade as far as a ball-handling guard. In other words, a quicker DLO with more burst who actually plays up to his standards in the playoffs. That alone could get us a few more wins.

After that, we need a legit 3-and-D wing who is reasonably quick and athletic.

But besides that, we appear to have the foundation of a championship contender.


A quicker, better ball handling guard, and a legit 3-and-D wing would help but those…by far…are not the biggest needs based on analysis and statistics. The biggest deficiencies are back court defense and front court rebounding. Turnovers, FT%, and 3pt volume factor in as well but hopefully better coaching to focus more on those things take care of those but a guard point of attack defender and a big back up C that can make the team less of a pushover in the paint when AD isn’t in the game is what the Lakers need to improve.

Analytics and statistics can be really misleading.

Yes, we need more backcourt defense. But bringing in a ball-handling guard with more quickness and burst would help with that, because he would at least have the footspeed to stay in front of his man. He could even allow us to trap and press on the perimeter at times, since that footspeed would allow him to help and recover.

You're also right about defensive rebounding, that is a huge weakness for us.

But a quicker ball-handling guard who can create pace would also take some pressure off of our defense and rebounding by allowing us to get more easy baskets, which would allow us to set up our defense and stymie runs by opponents.

Sometimes it's more important to lean in on your strengths than to fixate too much on totally fixing weaknesses.


It seems like we agree fundamentally…and even tho analysis and stats can be misleading…they are more likely to be revelatory such that ignoring them would be just going off feelings or emotions. Many have described the entire Lakers franchise of living in the dark ages without taking into consideration that intense study of what has happened analytically will likely reveal the most effective course of action needed. It’s all a guess, trying to predict future performance, but unquestionably analytics have provided the most reasonably chance of success with the highest probably of predicting the future more effectively.

Our agreement on fundamentals is that an active upgrade in the back court for defense may be the best move that could be made if we lean in on our strengths. Of which, playmaking and 3pt% are part of those. If the strengths aren’t leaned in on to recognize the value, it could result in mistakenly improving defense to address deficiencies while downgrading the strengths of 3pt% and playmaking. Both strengths and deficiencies have to be considered.

Based on the success so far of the existing team…even tho limited to WCF/1stRd exit…it would seem the best course of action to lean in on the strengths while addressing deficiencies would be to add a back up guard and back up C since there are limited options to upgrade. Ultimately upgrading the starters would be great if we could, but the ability to upgrade the back ups for deficiencies while keeping most of the starters to lean in on the strengths, is more doable.

The bottom line is that the indication from analysis is that the Lakers don’t have to revamp this roster to be a championship contender. Stats and analysis aren’t 100% foolproof so the feelings and emotions that the Lakers can’t compete with this roster could also be possible. My preference is that I’d rather go with the higher probability affored by analysis, even if it’s possible to end up being wrong. Others may disagree and have a different preference to go on emotions/feelings/eye test, which could actually end up turning out better. It’s ok if we disagree on that and see things differently.
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 09, 2024 5:47 pm    Post subject:

Hanging from Rafters wrote:
slavavov wrote:

Analytics and statistics can be really misleading.

Yes, we need more backcourt defense. But bringing in a ball-handling guard with more quickness and burst would help with that, because he would at least have the footspeed to stay in front of his man. He could even allow us to trap and press on the perimeter at times, since that footspeed would allow him to help and recover.

You're also right about defensive rebounding, that is a huge weakness for us.

But a quicker ball-handling guard who can create pace would also take some pressure off of our defense and rebounding by allowing us to get more easy baskets, which would allow us to set up our defense and stymie runs by opponents.

Sometimes it's more important to lean in on your strengths than to fixate too much on totally fixing weaknesses.


It seems like we agree fundamentally…and even tho analysis and stats can be misleading…they are more likely to be revelatory such that ignoring them would be just going off feelings or emotions. Many have described the entire Lakers franchise of living in the dark ages without taking into consideration that intense study of what has happened analytically will likely reveal the most effective course of action needed. It’s all a guess, trying to predict future performance, but unquestionably analytics have provided the most reasonably chance of success with the highest probably of predicting the future more effectively.

Our agreement on fundamentals is that an active upgrade in the back court for defense may be the best move that could be made if we lean in on our strengths. Of which, playmaking and 3pt% are part of those. If the strengths aren’t leaned in on to recognize the value, it could result in mistakenly improving defense to address deficiencies while downgrading the strengths of 3pt% and playmaking. Both strengths and deficiencies have to be considered.

Based on the success so far of the existing team…even tho limited to WCF/1stRd exit…it would seem the best course of action to lean in on the strengths while addressing deficiencies would be to add a back up guard and back up C since there are limited options to upgrade. Ultimately upgrading the starters would be great if we could, but the ability to upgrade the back ups for deficiencies while keeping most of the starters to lean in on the strengths, is more doable.

The bottom line is that the indication from analysis is that the Lakers don’t have to revamp this roster to be a championship contender. Stats and analysis aren’t 100% foolproof so the feelings and emotions that the Lakers can’t compete with this roster could also be possible. My preference is that I’d rather go with the higher probability affored by analysis, even if it’s possible to end up being wrong. Others may disagree and have a different preference to go on emotions/feelings/eye test, which could actually end up turning out better. It’s ok if we disagree on that and see things differently.

We do agree fundamentally, but I don't think adding a backup guard would be enough. DLO and Reaves would still be out there when playoff games are decided, and their inability to get past their man going downhill and stay in front of their men defensively would hurt us.

I'd love for us to go after Collin Sexton, and if we could also get Walker Kessler for Utah that would be great. I'd gladly give up two FRPs and maybe additional SRPs for them.
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 10, 2024 8:09 am    Post subject:

slavavov wrote:


I'd love for us to go after Collin Sexton, and if we could also get Walker Kessler for Utah that would be great. I'd gladly give up two FRPs and maybe additional SRPs for them.


YES!!! Agreement on that is more than just fundamental it would be complete, depending on the assets sent out of course.

Dlo/CamRed/Hayes/2FRPs/2SRPs for Kessler/Sexton is something I’d want in a heartbeat!!! It would only downgrade the backcourt slightly in 3pt%/apg/spg/drtg but the frontcourt rebounding/bpg would be significant enough to make up for losing Rui’s 3pt%. It makes for a more complete roster construction as Sexton would be close to the strengths we have now and Kessler would fix the front court rebounding issues plus add rim protection.

I would be concerned about relying on Vincent as a key piece and would still move him but with MaxC and even Vando for backcourt defense I would be willing to roll with that roster for a legitimate ship run. Great idea!

Side note: Rui/Vincent/JHS/Knecht for Ingram

AD/Kessler
LBJ/Wood
Ingram/Vando
AR/MaxC
Sexton/Dinwiddie

Projects:
Hinson/Traore/MaxLew/Bronny
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 10, 2024 8:21 am    Post subject:

We beat the nuggets in the first round last year if Ham was even remotely competent and if LBJ doesnt go hero ball in the final seconds of a couple of the games
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