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Bron2AD
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 Posted: Sat Jul 02, 2022 4:50 pm Post subject: |
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| 2019 wrote: | | If we get Kyrie, Walker's basketball fit is a whole lot better but the use of the MLE will prove to be a terrible choice IMO. |
Walker should be a vet min signing |
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ThePageDude
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| Posted: Sat Jul 02, 2022 5:20 pm Post subject: |
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| Aeneas Hunter wrote: |
Sure, it's been done. But when the taxpayer MLE is the only means to add players, and when the roster has a lot of holes, there is a question of priorities. We've depended on it to bring in players to address ongoing needs. Buying an extra year for Max Christie -- assuming he would agree to it -- is not a pressing need.
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I'm rather less forgiving, first because these people are paid millions to do a job and second because of the frustration borne of seeing resource after resource wasted and a never-ending succession of head-scratching personnel moves.
| Aeneas Hunter wrote: |
It stings when Buha writes that "From a value perspective, Walker is possibly the worst taxpayer mid-level exception signing of this offseason." But let's assume that Pelinka made a good decision and that Walker is really worth the MLE. Trying to shave the offer by a million bucks would have been silly. |
I will say this. I have little idea about Walker as a player - from the little I know of him he sounds utterly underwhelming (non-shooter, low IQ, non-defender).
HOWEVER, Buha is not comparing apples-to-apples: as I've said elsewhere it's clear that Pelinka is constrained to a 1 year deal (which is a separate discussion altogether) so that "worst" designation needs to be relative to players that *could* have accepted 1 year deals.
Now one does have to ask whether the Lakers should have used the tpmle at all if the market was so thin: why pull the trigger so quickly on a 1 year developmental player who will not really get enough minutes to develop? Which really lends credence to the argument that there was a considerable degree of Klutch quid-pro-quo here at play.
Last edited by ThePageDude on Sat Jul 02, 2022 5:31 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Laker's Fan
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| Posted: Sat Jul 02, 2022 5:26 pm Post subject: |
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Was Trez a good deal? Was Nunn? Was THT? Walker had a QO at $6.3m. San Antonio invested years in developing him so you could see why they would issue that. It looks like they might have dropped it at his request (just based on his signing with LA on the same deal).
One thing I will say is that I'm not sure other free agents are interested in LA. The last two years the players who signed here have gotten hosed, and this year is looking turbulent.
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vasashi17+
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| Posted: Sat Jul 02, 2022 5:27 pm Post subject: |
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| ahaider wrote: |
@vashashi - I don’t want to simplify the argument of Walker was the best we could do. But play devil’s advocate with me, of the options available at TPMLE, Walker appears to be the best we could do. I don’t like the signing much either but I do view it from the angle of John Wall seemed to have his mind preordained to the Clippers for some time. Divencenso & Brown took better locales than us. I would have liked Divencenso but a guy coming off injury the way he did would much more likely go to the warriors than us.
Again, I could be wrong. I was hoping in a long shot we would have signed Cody or Caleb Martin or Malik. Feels like we settled here for a Klutch client with “upside” as a continued good will to Rich Paul. Feels like this signing is more about Lebron than our needs. I just don’t feel so far based on what we know that we had much better options than him. Which I know you’re going to say Rob put us in - which is accurate. But who else would you have preferred?
Keep in mind, I didn’t want Lonnie. Feels like the failure of last year turned Monk off from sacrificing the bag to prioritizing the bag above all. Could also be that he got dropped by Iggy Azalea 😂 |
Imho I think the 2023 cap plan is a sham. I believe we want all the glamour that comes with star power here in LA but we can’t be bleeding money for the “others”. If we find away where our stars can will us to a ring…great. If not, we used them to sell tickets…so win!
I could be reading it wrong, but thats how it appears to me.
So maybe this MLE signing is a solid done for Rich, where Bron re-ups with us on the cheap. In which case, it may prove effective. We’ll find out either in August with a Bron extension or next summer during the “cap plan”.
However if it was a signing that could best impact our title contention, then I don’t believe this was the right move.
If it was to develop a player we might have an inside track on and believe can be here for the foreseeable future. Why the 1yr deal. The avg nba salary is 10.5m. A projected 7m on our books next year ain’t going to kill is in still being a cap having team if the object is to rebuild and develop through youth via Russ & Bron expiring & exiting next summer.
So I believe we limited our options by only wanting a 1yr deal and that’s why we might not have had a vast array of options. But if banner #18 is what we’re really about (and our FO is claiming that they are), then I’d go for Otto/TPrince with the full tpMLE for 3yrs so they get the type of money they’re looking for. You could go for Ingles or Brown Jr. who went for shorter term deals.
There are/were more win-now players than Walker. And if it was to invest in developing a player like Walker, then why the 1yr deal. There were other young’ns like Jalen Smith that I preferred we signed if development was the goal.
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Lucky_Shot
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| Posted: Sat Jul 02, 2022 7:04 pm Post subject: |
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It was just one game but in this video, LW4 played some good clean defense on Buddy Hield all game. So he can have good defensive games he needs to become more consistent though
https://youtu.be/ix7K--uu5Tk |
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Aeneas Hunter
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| Posted: Sat Jul 02, 2022 7:17 pm Post subject: |
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| vasashi17+ wrote: | @AH: I know about the tender giving a team and player “at least” the minimum window for a team to make an offer and for that player to accept the terms of a contract. However, if the player does not accept coming to terms with the stipulations of the contract a team wrote up during that exclusive window, a new clock starts on how long a team can hold that player’s rights for in order to finally come to terms on a deal with each other before his rights can belong to another team.
Per Coon’s FAQ:
| Quote: | What if the team and their drafted player can't agree to a contract?
The player's options are limited. What happens depends on a number of factors:
If the player is already under contract to, or signs a contract with a non-NBA team, the drafting team retains the player's draft rights for one year after the player's obligation to the non-NBA team ends. Essentially, the clock stops as long as the player plays pro ball outside the NBA. Players are not included in team salary during the regular season while the player is under contract with a non-NBA team.
If the player goes on to play college ball after he was drafted, then the team retains the player's draft rights until one year following the draft the player would have entered had he not declared early. For example, if a team drafts a college sophomore in 2017 and he returns to college and plays intercollegiate basketball, then they retain his draft rights until the 2020 draft. Note that the NCAA rules state that players lose their NCAA eligibility if they are drafted, so the player currently cannot return or go on to play college ball. This rule exists in the CBA in the event the NCAA rules ever change.
If the player was eligible to play in college before he was drafted but does not go on to play college basketball, then the team retains the player's draft rights until the draft the player would have entered had he not declared early. For example, if a team drafts a college sophomore in 2017 and he does not return to college and play intercollegiate basketball, they retain his draft rights until the 2019 draft.
For all other players, the team retains the player's draft rights until the date of the next draft.
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I may be out of my scope, but I believe Coon has proven he isn’t. |
Larry's right, but you're misunderstanding him. He is telling you what happens if the team makes the Required Tender and the player does not accept it. But the Required Tender is a contract for one year. That's not open to debate or interpretation. The NBPA regulates player agents, provides a preparatory course, and requires them to pass an exam. As a capologist, you may not know the details of the contract process, but player agents will be expected to know those details and to protect their clients.
So what you are saying is wrong. The issue is not governed by your interpretation of Larry's FAQ. It is governed by the CBA. As I said, you are now getting into my world. The CBA is a contract that is negotiated between the owners and the union. The union has a duty of fair representation under the law, and it is focused on these sorts of issues far more than you (or Larry). The union would never agree to let a team screw over a second round draft pick the way that you are describing.
I'm not trying to embarrass you. I'm showing you that there is a line between capology and practicalities of labor law and negotiations. It's easy to blur that line. There have been a couple times when Pincus has kicked out stuff that makes sense to capologists but makes no practical sense. Beware.
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Aeneas Hunter
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| Posted: Sat Jul 02, 2022 7:36 pm Post subject: |
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| ThePageDude wrote: | | Aeneas Hunter wrote: |
It stings when Buha writes that "From a value perspective, Walker is possibly the worst taxpayer mid-level exception signing of this offseason." But let's assume that Pelinka made a good decision and that Walker is really worth the MLE. Trying to shave the offer by a million bucks would have been silly. |
I will say this. I have little idea about Walker as a player - from the little I know of him he sounds utterly underwhelming (non-shooter, low IQ, non-defender).
HOWEVER, Buha is not comparing apples-to-apples: as I've said elsewhere it's clear that Pelinka is constrained to a 1 year deal (which is a separate discussion altogether) so that "worst" designation needs to be relative to players that *could* have accepted 1 year deals.
Now one does have to ask whether the Lakers should have used the tpmle at all if the market was so thin: why pull the trigger so quickly on a 1 year developmental player who will not really get enough minutes to develop? Which really lends credence to the argument that there was a considerable degree of Klutch quid-pro-quo here at play. |
I think this is what Buha means by "From a value perpective." There may have been other practicalities. And yes, it is not a good look that Pelinka just used our one major tool to sign a Rich Paul client who is not an obvious fit for our needs.
Having said that, I'm not sure how this really works from Rich Paul's perspective. Walker could have just accepted the QO in San Antonio and gotten about the same money. Walker might have preferred Los Angeles over San Antonio, but he got only a one-year contract and may get less playing time with the Lakers. This makes me wonder whether the story about Walker asking the Spurs to retract the QO is true. Rich Paul may have sensed that the Spurs were about to pull the QO, and then gotten Pelinka to bail out his client.
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ThePageDude
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| Posted: Sun Jul 03, 2022 3:03 am Post subject: |
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| Aeneas Hunter wrote: |
<snip>
Having said that, I'm not sure how this really works from Rich Paul's perspective. Walker could have just accepted the QO in San Antonio and gotten about the same money. Walker might have preferred Los Angeles over San Antonio, but he got only a one-year contract and may get less playing time with the Lakers. This makes me wonder whether the story about Walker asking the Spurs to retract the QO is true. Rich Paul may have sensed that the Spurs were about to pull the QO, and then gotten Pelinka to bail out his client. |
Interesting point indeed. Or perhaps there was some "wink wink nod nod" on playing time. |
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Nash Vegas
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| Posted: Sun Jul 03, 2022 6:36 am Post subject: |
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Has there been any positive thing said about Walker?
Everyone hates this signing, from fans reporters to fans.
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JUST-MING
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| Posted: Sun Jul 03, 2022 7:26 am Post subject: |
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| Lucky_Shot wrote: | It was just one game but in this video, LW4 played some good clean defense on Buddy Hield all game. So he can have good defensive games he needs to become more consistent though
https://youtu.be/ix7K--uu5Tk |
Nice post. Shades his shooting hand, forces a dribble with his off-hand, and uses angles to cut the floor (keep him out of the paint). |
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vasashi17+
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| Posted: Sun Jul 03, 2022 7:37 am Post subject: |
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@AH: let’s just say I’m used to getting embarrassed/shown up by people in my inner circle. So I’m used to it and there’s no hard feelings if that is something you even unintentionally do. It does not phase me haha. Also, I’m used to admitting defeat even when I believe I’m in the right, so I’ve been trained for the abuse
Law isn’t something I’ve gone to school for or do as an occupation, so debating with one will inevitably lead to me getting #lawyered. But hey, I’m a glutton for punishment, so I’m just going to leave this here….
| Quote: | Draft Rights
Draft Rights give a team the exclusive right to negotiate with and sign their draft pick. In general, a team will hold a player’s Draft Rights for a period of one year (Note: This time period only applies to non-Early Entry players). This upholds the sanctity of the NBA Draft and prevents draft picks from acting as free agents and signing with any team of their choosing. Draft Rights go into effect immediately after the player is drafted but are only maintained for the full year if the drafting team makes a Required Tender to their draft pick.[1] The substance of the Required Tender differs depending on whether the player is a first or second round pick. For first round picks, a Required Tender follows the rookie scale requirements and allows the player to sign until at least the first day of the regular season. For second round picks, a Required Tender is for at least the minimum salary and one season, and allows the player to sign until at least October 15th.
For first round picks, a Required Tender must be made on or before July 15th for the drafting team to keep the player’s Draft Rights. For second round picks, a Required Tender must be made in the two weeks before the September 5th. Teams can withdraw a Required Tender at any time after it is made but only if the player agrees to the withdrawal in writing. If Required Tender is withdrawn, the player immediately becomes a rookie free agent, free to sign a contract with any NBA team. Similarly, if a team fails to make a Required Tender to the player on or before the dates stated above, the team will lose the player’s Draft Rights he will become a rookie free agent.
If, for whatever reason, a player does not want to play for the team that drafted him, he can choose not to sign the Required Tender. He cannot, however, simply decline a Required Tender and sign with any other team for the upcoming season. Remember, just by making a Required Tender, the drafting team keeps the player’s Draft Rights for a full year.[2] Instead, the player must forego signing the contract and remain unsigned until the next NBA Draft when his drafting team’s Draft Rights will expire. Then, the player would enter that next NBA Draft (the “Subsequent Draft) (Note: This only applies to non-Early Entry players. Rules for Early Entry players are described in the Section below.). If the player is drafted in the Subsequent Draft, the Draft Rights process starts all over again. If the player is not drafted, he will be a rookie free agent.
As long as the player is a first round pick, the team and player also have the option to put off siging a contract, thereby delaying the Draft Rights process. The player can agree to renounce his right to accept any Required Tender from the team for the upcoming season. Once this happens, the player’s rookie scale cap hold comes off of his drafting team’s team salary and the player cannot be signed until the following July 1st, at which time the Draft Rights process will start over again.
Early Entry Players – Draft Rights
Draft Rights for Early Entry players[3] are a little different from Draft Rights for other draft eligible players. For teams, things remain mostly the same – they gain Draft Rights the same way and the Required Tender requirements are the same. The only difference is how long the player’s drafting team holds his Draft Rights. Unlike other players whose Draft Rights are kept for one full year, Early Entry players are bound by their drafting teams until one year after the first NBA Draft they could have entered as non-Early Entry players. For example, Ben Simmons declared for the 2016 NBA Draft after his freshman season, making him an Early Entry player. Whichever team drafts Simmons will hold his Draft Rights until the 2020 NBA Draft, one year after the first draft Simmons could have entered as a non-Early Entry player (2019 NBA Draft). [4] As such, the consequences of an Early Entry player not signing a player contract are much more severe than for non-Early Entry players.
These rules for Early Entry players apply even if the player signs a contract overseas and attempts to be considered under International/Eurostash player rules (explained below). There is no loophole for Early Entry players to shorten their drafting team’s Draft Rights period.
[1] Making a Required Tender is the Collective Bargaining Agreement (“CBA”) term for the offer of a player contract.
[2] There is an exception to this rule: Team’s can unilaterally renounce their exclusive right to negotiate with and sign the player so long as the renunciation occurs after the first day of the regular season (for first round picks) or October 15th (for a second round pick).
[3] For our purposes, an Early Entry player is a player who is at least 19 during the calendar year when the draft is held, at least one NBA season has occurred since the player graduated high school and who has played less than 4 years in college.
[4] In order to maintain the player’s Draft Rights, the drafting team must make a Required Tender every year by the relevant date according to the player’s draft position (July 15th or the period two weeks before September 5).
https://moorebasketball.com/2016/05/30/how-it-works-draft-rights-and-signing-draft-picks/
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| Quote: | Unlike first round picks, who have a scale salary, second round picks do not have any specific salary restrictions. They may sign for any amount from the minimum to the maximum, but players who last to the second round of the draft seldom command more than the minimum salary. A second round picks may also be signed to a Two-Way contract [1].
Also unlike first round picks, teams do not receive a salary cap exception specifically for their second round picks. These players must be signed using cap room or an available exception, such as the Minimum Player Salary exception or the Mid-Level exception. It is most common for a second round pick to receive the minimum salary and be signed using the Minimum Player Salary exception. However, since the Minimum Player Salary exception limits contracts to two seasons, it is not uncommon for teams to use a portion of their Mid-Level exception in order to sign the player for three seasons. This gives the team full Bird rights at the end of the contract, and avoids the Gilbert Arenas provision.
Unsigned second round draft picks do not have a cap hold.
[1] If a player is a second-round pick, his team submits a required tender (retaining its draft rights to the player), the player signs his required tender, and the team subsequently waives the player, then that team is the only team that can sign or convert that player to a Two-Way contract in that season.
http://www.cbafaq.com/salarycap.htm#Q48
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What? I’m a man of my word…I didn’t discuss it 
So about Walker…unlike his thread I hope this signing doesn’t derail our season.
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Nash Vegas
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Car54
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| Posted: Sun Jul 03, 2022 8:23 am Post subject: |
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Walker was a waste of the TPMLE
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Aeneas Hunter
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| Posted: Sun Jul 03, 2022 8:34 am Post subject: |
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Don't assume that a player would have signed with us just because he could. Porter may not have been interested in playing for the Lakers.
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Aeneas Hunter
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| Posted: Sun Jul 03, 2022 8:50 am Post subject: |
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| vasashi17+ wrote: | | Law isn’t something I’ve gone to school for or do as an occupation, so debating with one will inevitably lead to me getting #lawyered. But hey, I’m a glutton for punishment, so I’m just going to leave this here…. |
That piece is discussing the 2011 CBA, but the principles haven't changed with respect to this subject. (I think the terms were the same in the '00s, but I haven't read the older CBAs in the last 10 years.) A team must make a Required Tender. The Required Tender must be for one year for at least the minimum salary under a Uniform Player Contract. Anything above those terms is negotiable as long as it otherwise complies with the CBA. A team could give a second round draft pick a max contract if they have the cap space. Don't tell the Knicks about that.
The point is that acquiring a player's draft rights is a very serious matter on which the union will be laser focused. The CBA does not create a draft rights game that can be played by teams, as is the case with capology. We're talking about controlling the ability of players to work and earn money. The owners need the CBA to trigger the non-statutory labor exemption to the Sherman Act. Otherwise, the whole thing would likely be illegal. The union isn't going to bargain away the economic freedom of its members without significant safeguards.
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LakerDYnasty72
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| Posted: Sun Jul 03, 2022 9:13 am Post subject: |
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No. It has pretty much been confirmed that he chose Toronto because his wife is from Toronto. Happy wife, happy life! |
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DLaker
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| Posted: Mon Jul 04, 2022 5:40 am Post subject: |
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| Just a thought, I wonder if the Lakers went this off season looking for talent they liked in the draft in the past. With the history of getting and identifying players that will be serviceable Walker and Brown seems like players that can blossom into something great for the Lakers. Just look at this past draft Christie, Cole and Pippen. You can’t deny they have an eye for talent Caruso, Austin, GPII, Queen, Huff, Bryant…. They may have not kept them before they blossom but they have the eye. |
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Hero Ball
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| Posted: Mon Jul 04, 2022 6:36 am Post subject: |
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| Aeneas Hunter wrote: |
Don't assume that a player would have signed with us just because he could. Porter may not have been interested in playing for the Lakers. |
This. |
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yinoma2001
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| Posted: Mon Jul 04, 2022 6:40 am Post subject: |
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Been watching some Lonnie highlights this weekend. He is pretty electric in the open court. Seems we are going to try to run more this year and get out in the open court as opposed to stalling in the halfcourt. Not a guy I would have chosen but I see some of the positives in his game.
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Hero Ball
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| Posted: Mon Jul 04, 2022 6:45 am Post subject: |
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| yinoma2001 wrote: | | Been watching some Lonnie highlights this weekend. He is pretty electric in the open court. Seems we are going to try to run more this year and get out in the open court as opposed to stalling in the halfcourt. Not a guy I would have chosen but I see some of the positives in his game. |
When all is said and done LWIV is gonna be a fan favorite.
He is the more offensive less defensive version of KCP. |
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ocho
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| Posted: Wed Jul 06, 2022 10:55 am Post subject: |
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We shall see.
| Quote: | | Lonnie Walker IV says “I’m coming here to play defense” |
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epic_
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| Posted: Wed Jul 06, 2022 11:03 am Post subject: |
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Lonnie Walker sporting the BScott #4.
Lets go!!!
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Lakersfan1211
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| Posted: Wed Jul 06, 2022 11:41 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | Lonnie Walker IV on his 3-point shooting: “You can look at the percentages but leave me open and see what’s gonna happen.” |
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LakerDYnasty72
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| Posted: Wed Jul 06, 2022 11:57 am Post subject: |
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Players like LWIV, Troy Brown Jr, and even Damian Jones, Nunn and Toscano, are at their best in the open court. Walker's skillset would shine best in a system like Golden States'. I sure as hell hope we plan to make pressurized defense our top priority. It will set the tone and help create turnovers, which are opportunities to run.
Opporunities to run are also, gulp!, what Westbrook is best at 
We don't have elite shooters like Golden State or Phoenix. Next best thing to do is set a standard of no defense, no play time.
There's a reason these guys were available for min or mle deals. |
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vasashi17+
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| Posted: Wed Jul 06, 2022 12:10 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | Kyle Goon @kylegoon
Lonnie Walker says he’s owned this purple suit since before he signed with the Lakers, and wore this today because it was one of his few clean outfits. When it was pointed out that he wore purple to his first visit to the Lakers, laughs: “I guess you could say it manifested.” pic.twitter.com/L0HvAJPkln
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The kid came in drip’n with Laker swag. Has me wondering where he was last season when we could have used an IV to help with Nunn’s knee and our geriatric ward. Dude would have been the perfect one last year to send out to tell our ops to “get off our Lon!”
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