Ainge rapes everyone in trades. I don't like Pelinka dealing with him, he will bend us over.
He senses desperation and goes in for the kill. He knows the Lakers are desperate right now.
I mean even for Laker fans, everyone senses the urgency to deal Westbrick because our team is a legit contender if we could trade Westbrick for any decent player. _________________ Playoffs is good enough. - Jeanie Buss 2024
Ainge rapes everyone in trades. I don't like Pelinka dealing with him, he will bend us over.
So you'd rather have THT than PatBev right now? That said, I agree that Utah is not a logical partner considering their available players don't really address our needs.
Vanderbilt alone addresses a DESPERATE need for this team (a backup defensive forward with legit size) moreso than 99.9% of the other Laker trade ideas tossed around.
Yossi is saying to extend him within the S&T limits so we can trade him in June/July?
I mean that sounds good but correct me if I'm wrong a team can only receive a sign and trade player if they are under the cap? That would limit some teams. Also I don't see some team willing to bring in WB for a large contract either.
Maybe Vasa or someone can explain how a WB S&T would actually realistically work?
A Russ S&t needs his cooperation first, so that’s a hoop we need to jump thru. Then it needs the team interested in receiving him to not only want him on that 3yr min deal (only 1st year mandated to be fully guaranteed), but once he hits their books they’re hardcapped…which adds a couple more hoops to jump thru.
But if it’s cap space we use to get him on a S&t deal we need to make sure we stay below the salary cap + 100k in team salary once the incoming deal hits our books. If we use his full bird rights to use as a capped out team, we can bring back 125% +100k of that amount in incoming salary.
But either way we approach it, simply having him expire while having Reaves, Rui, Gabriel’s capholds (or new deals) on our books means we’d have closer to 20m in cap space rather than the 30-35m we had before the Rui trade.
Russ has always been about getting as much money as possible. He even petitioned the NBA to increase his first max extension retroactively in OKC because he reached a certain milestone. I don’t see him taking a minimum extension.
I agree and I don't see him being ok with a S&T, he will want more power than that offers. We gotta trade him now!
Maybe, but only if ownership is willing to commit to the repeater tax. It would take a maniac like V+ to calculate the luxury tax bill under the scenario I gave ($70M to $80M in salary next year for VanVleet, Trent, Hachimura, and Reaves), but I can give you a rough estimate. Using the high end of the range, we would be looking at something in the ballpark of $180M in payroll. That's about $20M or so over the threshold. That would bring the total tax bill to around $85M. However, if we wanted to use the taxpayer MLE or anything else, we would be looking at a luxury tax mulitplier of at least 4.75:1.
The actual numbers would be lower than this if we re-sign VanVleet, Trent, Hachimura, and Reaves for less than $80M. In fact, if we somehow managed to sign all four of them for $60M-ish, we might not even have a large tax bill. That's just wishful thinking, though. I think that the market value is closer to $80M. More importantly, if the front office has a mentality of needing to hold the line on salaries next summer, we could wind up with another Caruso scenario.
First off, you’re absolutely right and even if Jeanie caps salary/tax spending with the use of the 11.6m ntpMLE and/or 4.5m BAE, it would be real tricky navigating deals that all fit under the 173m cap apron. So will management take on free spending when history (or should o say herstory) has shown otherwise…
Projected 2023/24 Offseason Laker Cap Sheet on a 136m Salary Cap
1. Bron 47.6m
2. AD 40.6m
3. VanVleet 35m (assumed new deal)
4. TrentJr 25m (assumed new deal)
5. Rui 13m (assumed new deal)
6. Reaves 12m (assumed early bird max deal)
7. Damien (player option) 2.6m
8. MaxC 1.7m
9. 2023 1st pick swap w/NO ~3m (based on pick falling between #20-30)
10-11. 7.2m tpMLE split with player & 2023 2nd rounder on rookie min 3yr deal)
12. Vet min 2.1m
13. Vet min 2.1m
14. Vet min 2.1m
= 194m tax related team salary
= 29m over projected 165m tax line
~ 110m in associated taxes under the more punitive repeater tax code
_________________ Not familiar with the salary cap/CBA rules & how it impacts our Lakers?
#GetFamiliar by CLICKING HERE!
Last edited by vasashi17+ on Fri Feb 03, 2023 9:37 am; edited 1 time in total
Russ's salary has to be 70% paid now for the season. I've read in the past that the players have already been paid the majority of their salary by the time we hit the trade deadline. Any team taking on Russ at this point will only be taking a fraction of his salary and I'm guessing he would also take a buyout to play on a contender like Miami or whatever.
This current Laker squad has a chance to make some noise in the playoffs. Can pretty much guarantee no team wants to face the Lakers in a playoff series. At this point I send WB+FRP for the best group of roleplayers available for that price. I'm not too concerned with FA especially after the Rui trade. The Kyrie dream is dead. Just make sure any player they acquire will be helpful the rest of this season and also on a value contract that can be flipped or retained in the future.
IOW it's time for Pelinka to earn his salary.
Last edited by daytripper on Fri Feb 03, 2023 9:36 am; edited 1 time in total
Lakers must be quite desperate to be dealing with Ainge again knowing his history. If Ainge is like the only person to even talk with the Lakers right now, then he's got all the leverage.
We put ourselves in a terrible situation right now because we didn't explore trading Brick when he was playing well. Now, I think we might get fleeced again. Hopefully, Ainge shows us some mercy. _________________ Playoffs is good enough. - Jeanie Buss 2024
Lakers must be quite desperate to be dealing with Ainge again knowing his history. If Ainge is like the only person to even talk with the Lakers right now, then he's got all the leverage.
We put ourselves in a terrible situation right now because we didn't explore trading Brick when he was playing well. Now, I think we might get fleeced again. Hopefully, Ainge shows us some mercy.
Ehh I’m pretty sure the Jazz aren’t the only team we are talking to
Lakers must be quite desperate to be dealing with Ainge again knowing his history. If Ainge is like the only person to even talk with the Lakers right now, then he's got all the leverage.
We put ourselves in a terrible situation right now because we didn't explore trading Brick when he was playing well. Now, I think we might get fleeced again. Hopefully, Ainge shows us some mercy.
Ehh I’m pretty sure the Jazz aren’t the only team we are talking to
Good to know you're more reliable than BSPN. _________________ Playoffs is good enough. - Jeanie Buss 2024
Ainge rapes everyone in trades. I don't like Pelinka dealing with him, he will bend us over.
So you'd rather have THT than PatBev right now? That said, I agree that Utah is not a logical partner considering their available players don't really address our needs.
Vanderbilt alone addresses a DESPERATE need for this team (a backup defensive forward with legit size) moreso than 99.9% of the other Laker trade ideas tossed around.
Problems I have with Vanderbilt:
1. I don't see him as a true 2-way player. At some point we need set in stone consistent starting and closing lineups and you don't do that with situational players.
2. Because of their salary disparity, any trade involving Russ and Vanderbilt will also return a number of smaller guards
3. He may be available but not to us with our assets and willingness to give them up. _________________ Luxury Tax/FA Spreadsheet (Save to your Google Drive to edit)
Russ's salary has to be 70% paid now for the season. I've read in the past that the players have already been paid the majority of their salary by the time we hit the trade deadline. Any team taking on Russ at this point will only be taking a fraction of his salary and I'm guessing he would also take a buyout to play on a contender like Miami or whatever.
This current Laker squad has a chance to make some noise in the playoffs. Can pretty much guarantee no team wants to face the Lakers in a playoff series. At this point I send WB+FRP for the best group of roleplayers available for that price. I'm not too concerned with FA especially after the Rui trade. The Kyrie dream is dead. Just make sure any player they acquire will be helpful the rest of this season and also on a value contract that can be flipped or retained in the future.
IOW it's time for Pelinka to earn his salary.
If you believe in Jeanie's aversion to the repeater tax, the problem with any Russ + FRP trade is that the only on-court impact will be Russ is no longer available to play. I get that some see it as a plus but is that worth a FRP to save Ham from himself? _________________ Luxury Tax/FA Spreadsheet (Save to your Google Drive to edit)
Lakers must be quite desperate to be dealing with Ainge again knowing his history. If Ainge is like the only person to even talk with the Lakers right now, then he's got all the leverage.
We put ourselves in a terrible situation right now because we didn't explore trading Brick when he was playing well. Now, I think we might get fleeced again. Hopefully, Ainge shows us some mercy.
Ainge isn't all that. He did make a questionable deal before the season with that Bogdanovic trade so he's not totally infallible. He gets alot of credit because awful GM's like Connelly in Minn and King in Brooklyn handed him a bunch of unprotected picks. A bad team like Chicago had no idea what they had in Markkanen who ofc eventually ends up in that Mitchell deal. Overall his deals and drafting haven't been that great outside of obvious choices.
Lakers are the ones sitting here with a potential FRP to dangle. WB's salary is mostly paid by the Lakers at this point too. The Jazz have already made it publicly known most of their players are on the block. It would be a bit embarrassing for them if they have to bring them all back after the deadline. If Ainge is that desperate for a FRP then make them give up their best roleplayers or no freaking deal. If Pelinka is too intimidated to deal with Ainge then he shouldn't be GM.
Lakers must be quite desperate to be dealing with Ainge again knowing his history. If Ainge is like the only person to even talk with the Lakers right now, then he's got all the leverage.
We put ourselves in a terrible situation right now because we didn't explore trading Brick when he was playing well. Now, I think we might get fleeced again. Hopefully, Ainge shows us some mercy.
Ainge isn't all that. He did make a questionable deal before the season with that Bogdanovic trade so he's not totally infallible. He gets alot of credit because awful GM's like Connelly in Minn and King in Brooklyn handed him a bunch of unprotected picks. A bad team like Chicago had no idea what they had in Markkanen who ofc eventually ends up in that Mitchell deal. Overall his deals and drafting haven't been that great outside of obvious choices.
Lakers are the ones sitting here with a potential FRP to dangle. WB's salary is mostly paid by the Lakers at this point too. The Jazz have already made it publicly known most of their players are on the block. It would be a bit embarrassing for them if they have to bring them all back after the deadline. If Ainge is that desperate for a FRP then make them give up their best roleplayers or no freaking deal. If Pelinka is too intimidated to deal with Ainge then he shouldn't be GM.
That's because they're rebuilding. Whatever happens to the team this year doesn't matter. He could have his players back disgruntled but it wouldn't change the fact that they're just rebuilding. The Lakers, on the other hand, have shown now they have huge stakes on the line, championship at stake. So yea, I don't see how the Jazz do not have all the leverage here knowing they could walk away from negotiations with no deals and they'd still be fine. _________________ Playoffs is good enough. - Jeanie Buss 2024
If Ham has any understanding of how players should perform then he has to be frustrated with Westbrook, 1 game he will help us win a game then the next game he ends up laying a egg, I’m pretty sure he’s gonna play a lot better against the Pelicans but the Lakers have to decide rather Westbrook is even gonna be playable in the playoffs when teams are making adjustments every game in a 7 game series, I think even the FO can’t hide the fact anymore that Westbrook can’t be counted on anymore and thus why the trade talks are intensifying in recent days
Yes, I realized that I was sprinkling catnip. It looks like my numbers were in the ballpark, though you estimate a little more money for Hachimura and Reaves and assume that we'd use the taxpayer MLE. Those are both plausible assumptions. I can't imagine any scenario in which Jeanie signs off on paying over $300M on payroll.
I don't really care whether the Buss family members can afford to supersize their lunch. It's not my money. The concern is that we would get into a position where we cut corners due to the tax. There is no point to going that deep into the tax unless you're going to go all the way. If we aren't committed to it -- and I doubt that we would be -- the VanVleet/Trent idea doesn't make a lot of sense even if the Raptors bit on it. _________________ Internet Argument Resolved
12 of our next 13 games are against Western conference opponents, and our lone opponent from the east is Milwaukee. If there was ever a time to need help, it's now.
If Ham has any understanding of how players should perform then he has to be frustrated with Westbrook, 1 game he will help us win a game then the next game he ends up laying a egg, I’m pretty sure he’s gonna play a lot better against the Pelicans but the Lakers have to decide rather Westbrook is even gonna be playable in the playoffs when teams are making adjustments every game in a 7 game series, I think even the FO can’t hide the fact anymore that Westbrook can’t be counted on anymore and thus why the trade talks are intensifying in recent days
We're trading a player at his lows while showing our desperation to win a championship. Not a good combination to bring to the negotiation table. _________________ Playoffs is good enough. - Jeanie Buss 2024
If Ham has any understanding of how players should perform then he has to be frustrated with Westbrook, 1 game he will help us win a game then the next game he ends up laying a egg, I’m pretty sure he’s gonna play a lot better against the Pelicans but the Lakers have to decide rather Westbrook is even gonna be playable in the playoffs when teams are making adjustments every game in a 7 game series, I think even the FO can’t hide the fact anymore that Westbrook can’t be counted on anymore and thus why the trade talks are intensifying in recent days
I don't think we have any idea where trade talks stand and if they are intensifying or not. I get that you are a huge fan of the Internet rumor mill, but I don't think that tells us anything real.
That said, I think your basic error is imagining that teams we might trade with care how Westbrook is playing. It's unlikely any team we trade with will have significant playoff aspirations or will view Westbrook as anything but an expiring contract. He'll be someone a team trades for (and maybe then waives) in order to get our pick(s).
Yossi is just recommending that we do not allow Russ’s salary potential to go by the way side. We surrendered a FRP in the Russ trade and his current deal Allie’s us to bring back just about 60m in incoming salary. We surrendered a FRP to get Schro and lost the ability to add about 20m in incoming salary when he expired.
Our books could reflect nearly 80m in cap space at the moment, but we about 1 week shy where that ain’t no longer an option and it costed us 2 FRPs.
For all the hype that our 2 future ‘27/‘29 FRPs are getting and against the backdrop of us “surrendering our future” in such a move, realize that we 1 week away from actually doing that once Russ no longer becomes an option as a tradable asset. It would have cost us 2FRPs (our ‘20 and ‘21) with a 1st round exit followed by no entry into the postseason to show for it. Now that not only messes up your present but mucks up your future.
Speaking of which, from the Haynes article…
Quote:
The Orlando Magic have made center Mo Bamba available, league sources tell Bleacher Report.
Minutes for the 24-year-old dipped in the month of January (10.2) and there are teams who are intrigued with the untapped potential of a 7-footer who possesses a consistent outside shot.
Try buying low on this former 6th overall pick and now you got him and Rui to groom for the future.
Yossi is saying to extend him within the S&T limits so we can trade him in June/July?
Yeah, that’s exactly what he’s saying. Get him extended on a lower annual and roll his expiring K into next year to do it all over again.
It’s essentially like a S&t this summer, but like an extension post trade deadline, it’s going to have to require Russ’s participation. As you can see 👇🏼 we only have Russ as an Excel client, so if we do right by him, maybe we can target another Excel client as a summer target via extend then trade or in a S&t (has to be 3yr minimum deal, with only 1st year fully guaranteed)…
But Yossi does not recommend this route, which is why we are now pressed against a click to have dude expire for nothing…and like I mentioned, that’s 2FRPs lost along with a potential 80m in incoming deals also gone with the expirations of Schro before and Russ soon to follow. That’s unacceptable imho.
Lastly consider, we are restricted in the amount of incoming salary we can bring in via our projected cap space this summer. For example, let’s say we want to bring in a 36m player, but only have 35m in cap space, we can’t make that move unless we also dump additional salary (ie MaxC and/or Damien via player opt-in) since we can only breach up to 100k over the projected 134m salary cap (could be up to 136m) in any cap room absorbing trade.
@Balto: I look at Rui as either our starting 3 with Bron running point and/or Bron’s main backup off the bench that can eat as a bucket heater with the 2nd unit. But think of a starting lineup of Bron, a 3&D 2, Rui, AD, stretch center rim protecting 5…yikes!
@G & KR: I’m with you guys in that it’s rare to find a defensive center with stretch potential, but ideally that’s what you gotta target to put next up AD.
2) Can Spurs still take on say WBs contract and only have to send out very little? Thinking they are the only team that can do this? Maybe 1 other?
IF the Raptors deal went down and we got Fred and Gary couldn't we then turn around and make it a 3 team trade sending other contracts to the Spurs for someone which gets us under the tax THUS allowing Jeanie to avoid the repeater tax?
Say Rob sends 1st+Reaves(or Christie)/PBev/Walker to the Raptors for Fred and Gary. Then also our other 1st plus say WB to the Spurs for Poeltl?
This should take us under the tax PLUS give us a lineup of:
Poeltl
AD
Bron
Gary
Fred
Am I thinking about the Spurs correctly?
Yep, Spurs are the only team that can facilitate a 10m+ salary absorbing deal. They currently have about 27m in cap space so, they can take on Russ’s 47.1m and send a minimum of 20m in outgoing salary to make a deal work. Indy can also facilitate an uneven trade, but only within 10m since tgat is the amount of space they have remaining.
Poetl makes 9.4m, so the Spurs wound have to also send either JRich or McDermott to make the money work.
Spurs, Raps and LA have 14 on the roster so uneven player trades can be allowed. In your scenario our net in/out would be 4 so it works. Toronto’s would 3/2, so it works. Spurs would be 1/2 so it works.
Where it doesn’t work is the salary since Pat, Walker, Max (or Reaves) aggregated alone can’t get you both VanVleet & TrentJr. Toronto would need more incoming salary for both of them to be outbound.
If you do restructure your 3way to have it where either JRich or McDermott head to Toronto along with Laker trio and they send back a vet min player (Bo Cruz?) to us to fit under the max 15 rostered players, then it would work salary wise for each of the 3 teams as well.
Not to mention, Russ’s 47.1m can bring in as much as 59m in salary by himself (enough for VanVleet, TrentJr and Poetl aggregated)…so if we also get off of PatB, Walker and Max (or Reaves), we create a near 21m tax free TPE as well. So a Toronto vet min along with VanVleet, TrentJr and Poetl in exchange for Russ, PatB, Skywalker & Max (or Reaves) could still be enough of a salary dump to have it where we dramatically lower our team salary.
And like you said, that enables us to go under the tax line this year, therein not only ducking the tax bill this year, but ducking the repeater tax bracket next year as well. Nice! 👍🏼
Also recall Toronto is currently 5m below the tax line, so any incoming salary they get needs to have it where they don’t pay a tax bill this year. A swap of PatB, Walker, Max (or Reaves) JRich (or McDermott) for VanVleet, TrentJr and min player (Bo?) leads to Toronto actually taking back less incoming money. So that too checks out. Nice again! 👍🏼👍🏼
gng930 wrote:
Ham's plan for our guard surplus:
Nice! 😂
Maybe we can stack another two and turn em into a lethal shooter like John Wick 😉 _________________ Not familiar with the salary cap/CBA rules & how it impacts our Lakers?
#GetFamiliar by CLICKING HERE!
Last edited by vasashi17+ on Fri Feb 03, 2023 10:14 am; edited 1 time in total
If Ham has any understanding of how players should perform then he has to be frustrated with Westbrook, 1 game he will help us win a game then the next game he ends up laying a egg, I’m pretty sure he’s gonna play a lot better against the Pelicans but the Lakers have to decide rather Westbrook is even gonna be playable in the playoffs when teams are making adjustments every game in a 7 game series, I think even the FO can’t hide the fact anymore that Westbrook can’t be counted on anymore and thus why the trade talks are intensifying in recent days
My impression is that Ham feels his best shot is rolling with Russ. By playing him more, it hopefully builds confidence and chemistry to the point that good Russ happens much more than bad Russ (at least enough to win a playoff series). At some point though you have to realize that bad Russ is keeping you from even getting into the playoffs and the clock is ticking on that. _________________ Luxury Tax/FA Spreadsheet (Save to your Google Drive to edit)
Last edited by gng930 on Fri Feb 03, 2023 10:17 am; edited 2 times in total
It would be a bit embarrassing for them if they have to bring them all back after the deadline. If Ainge is that desperate for a FRP then make them give up their best roleplayers or no freaking deal.
I think you are misreading Ainge. He isn't desperate to do anything. He's got a team that is half a game out of a seeded playoff spot. His rebuild is ahead of schedule. He doesn't have any bad contracts, except maybe THT. If the trade window comes and goes, he'll be just fine. _________________ Internet Argument Resolved
Maybe we can stack another two and turn em into a lethal shooter like John Wick 😉
Why bother with shooting when you can simply stretch from the 3-point line and drop it in? _________________ Luxury Tax/FA Spreadsheet (Save to your Google Drive to edit)
If Ham has any understanding of how players should perform then he has to be frustrated with Westbrook, 1 game he will help us win a game then the next game he ends up laying a egg, I’m pretty sure he’s gonna play a lot better against the Pelicans but the Lakers have to decide rather Westbrook is even gonna be playable in the playoffs when teams are making adjustments every game in a 7 game series, I think even the FO can’t hide the fact anymore that Westbrook can’t be counted on anymore and thus why the trade talks are intensifying in recent days
Don't get lost in the mob psychology about Westbrook and Ham. Westbrook will play the sixth man role in the playoffs, just like he is doing right now. If we trade him, the package will tell us more about the rebuilding plan than it will about Westbrook. _________________ Internet Argument Resolved
Russ's salary has to be 70% paid now for the season. I've read in the past that the players have already been paid the majority of their salary by the time we hit the trade deadline. Any team taking on Russ at this point will only be taking a fraction of his salary and I'm guessing he would also take a buyout to play on a contender like Miami or whatever.
This current Laker squad has a chance to make some noise in the playoffs. Can pretty much guarantee no team wants to face the Lakers in a playoff series. At this point I send WB+FRP for the best group of roleplayers available for that price. I'm not too concerned with FA especially after the Rui trade. The Kyrie dream is dead. Just make sure any player they acquire will be helpful the rest of this season and also on a value contract that can be flipped or retained in the future.
IOW it's time for Pelinka to earn his salary.
i guarantee you not a single NBA team cares about how much money they pay Russ, it is how much impact he has on the salary cap. every team must spend at least 90% of their cap according to CBA rules. for us, we want to move him for players that can help us, so it is about the assets we give up. it doesn't even matter if Russ plays good or bad for the other team.
Conley/Olynyk/Vanderbilt for Russ/Lonnie/1 protected/1 unprotected would be a satisfying deal to me. Tremendous size/defense/spacing upgrade. We get rid of Russ and one of our too many guards. Olynyk can be waived in the offseason for 3 million cap hit and Vanderbilt is cheap for another year.
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