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Megaton
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 16, 2024 11:53 am    Post subject:

manlisten wrote:
2019 wrote:
pjiddy wrote:
JUST-MING wrote:
pjiddy wrote:
Which scenario do you feel gives us a better future?


Neither. I’d rather trade Lebron and Anthony for first round picks and jump start the rebuild.


Could probably get two solid future role players in this draft.

JHS, two guys from the weakest draft in a decade + Reaves/Rui?

Pels get a top 5 pick in 2025 draft


Not to mention 27 1st.

People either really don't think things through or let their emotions cloud they judgment.


I'll never understand why people are so eager to blow up the team like they forget what it actually means. Last time around the Lakers had incredible luck with positioning and still ended up with a core that couldn't crack .500. Full teardowns rarely end in championships.


It’s more of the Lakers getting actually UNLUCKY with the lottery, and bad drafting:

Lakers 2014: We got unlucky with drafting AND lottery position. If only that Embiid draft tweet came true: https://pbs.twimg.com/media/BrCIVZyCYAICWV_.png

Lakers 2015: unlucky with not landing the first pick to get KAT, but also drafting the wrong guy at 2. Luckily it’s wasn’t Jahill Okafor, but drafting DLO over either Porzingis, or not trading down for Booker hurts. But of course, hindsight,

Lakers 2016: The only draft we got right, and got lucky as well with draft positioning. Instead of drafting Ben Simmons (short term great, long term bust), we end up drafting the better player after all.

Lakers 2017: I think it was this draft where we were offered picks 5 and 10 for our 2nd pick. Insane that we could have had De’Aaron Fox and Donovan Mitchell with those two picks.

De’Aaron Fox
Donovan Mitchell
Brandon Ingram
Kristops Porzingis
Joel Embiid

Would have been an interesting alternate reality for sure.
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ocho
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 16, 2024 12:32 pm    Post subject:

pjiddy wrote:
ocho wrote:
pjiddy wrote:
ocho wrote:
The Suns spent $24M more than the Lakers this year to win 2 more games than we did. That figure is about to skyrocket when factoring in Allen’s $70M extension which will cost them an additional $79M in tax.

It’s nice to have a deep pocketed owner who doesn’t mind spending. I wish we had one. Not sure Ishbia is quite the model you’d want though. His spending has verged into reckless territory while he chases instant and immediate success at the grave expense of their future. They’ve given away all of their draft picks and they will be deep into the second apron which will make it very difficult to improve the team in the next few years. This is essentially it for them and it doesn’t appear that they’re good enough to contend in a serious way. Their older stars are creaky, Durant will be 36 next year, and it should raise alarm that they got pretty damn healthy seasons from KD and Booker and barely avoided the play-in. You could say the same about us, but we aren’t nearly as all-in and locked-in to this squad as they are to theirs. We have draft assets to play with and cap flexibility that Phoenix simply doesn’t. If we gave up every asset we had I’d surely want to do better than 2 more wins.


That’s a fair point, but another way of looking at it is that despite the fact the Suns had a new coach and three new starters (Beal, Nurkic, Allen) and their big 3 only played 40 games together, they still finished two wins better than we did. And they might be the one team that can beat Denver in a series. They beat them in the one game they had all 3 of their guys, something we haven’t done since 2022


We’ll see how it pans out over the next few seasons but in terms of their Big 3 not playing many games together, that’s simply baked in to the team they constructed. Beal hasn’t played more than 60 games in a season since the 18-19 year. Durant has been pretty brittle the last few years and is getting into his late 30s. Booker has missed double digit games in nearly every year of his career. This is probably always going to be a thing, and they have very little wiggle room to improve their roster going forward. That’s an awful lot of money and future sacrifice for a team that might but likely won’t beat Denver in a series.


All fair points, but is age/durability of the stars any less baked-in to our strategy? I might be in the minority of people who think the Suns are doing it right. You have a top-10 all time player in KD and an all-pro in Booker and they play well together. It’s rare for a franchise to have that, and if you do, you go for it. Just like the Mavs did this season and the Celtics are now with KP and Jrue extensions pushing them to the second apron. The clippers will be here soon with the PG extension. Ishbia might have been an outlier this season but he might soon be the norm for contenders.

Keep in mind the Lakers won 5 titles with Kobe while being the highest spending team every year, something virtually every franchise but the Knicks couldn’t stomach. It’s flipped now. We are the queasy ones. The Lakers aren’t the Thunder compensating for spending reluctance with a talented front office. We can neither outspend nor outthink the other teams.


I don’t think our current situation is one that teams should particularly want to replicate. We do still have the ability to upgrade the roster though as needed. Phoenix not so much. We are at the end of our run while they’re at the beginning. If this goes sideways or one of their guys suffers a bad injury they’re cooked for a decade. The Mavs, I think, similarly gave up way too much future for a slight improvement now. They’ve coughed up a lot of 1sts to marginally improve. It might win them a series or two, and maybe that’s worth it to them, but how many more years is Luka going to be content to be early round playoff fodder? What happens this summer when Dallas wants to improve and they’ve only got 1 pick to trade? Going for it is great, but that doesn’t mean it’s a license to gamble foolishly. I agree with your assessment of our situation. If we are going to remain a spender-but-not-super-spender we have to get smarter and better people to give us advantages at the margins. Pelinka and Rambis wouldn’t be hired by any other franchise.
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 16, 2024 5:14 pm    Post subject:

Megaton wrote:
manlisten wrote:
2019 wrote:
pjiddy wrote:
JUST-MING wrote:
pjiddy wrote:
Which scenario do you feel gives us a better future?


Neither. I’d rather trade Lebron and Anthony for first round picks and jump start the rebuild.


Could probably get two solid future role players in this draft.

JHS, two guys from the weakest draft in a decade + Reaves/Rui?

Pels get a top 5 pick in 2025 draft


Not to mention 27 1st.

People either really don't think things through or let their emotions cloud they judgment.


I'll never understand why people are so eager to blow up the team like they forget what it actually means. Last time around the Lakers had incredible luck with positioning and still ended up with a core that couldn't crack .500. Full teardowns rarely end in championships.


It’s more of the Lakers getting actually UNLUCKY with the lottery, and bad drafting:

Lakers 2014: We got unlucky with drafting AND lottery position. If only that Embiid draft tweet came true: https://pbs.twimg.com/media/BrCIVZyCYAICWV_.png

Lakers 2015: unlucky with not landing the first pick to get KAT, but also drafting the wrong guy at 2. Luckily it’s wasn’t Jahill Okafor, but drafting DLO over either Porzingis, or not trading down for Booker hurts. But of course, hindsight,

Lakers 2016: The only draft we got right, and got lucky as well with draft positioning. Instead of drafting Ben Simmons (short term great, long term bust), we end up drafting the better player after all.

Lakers 2017: I think it was this draft where we were offered picks 5 and 10 for our 2nd pick. Insane that we could have had De’Aaron Fox and Donovan Mitchell with those two picks.

De’Aaron Fox
Donovan Mitchell
Brandon Ingram
Kristops Porzingis
Joel Embiid

Would have been an interesting alternate reality for sure.


This isn't how the world works. Teams get picks right and teams get picks wrong. Playing revisionist history almost a decade later is illogical - although a fun game.

Fact is we got lucky over and over to keep our draft spots and/or move up. I forget how exactly things went but we could have also missed out a lot more. IIRC, we moved up 3 years in a row?
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JUST-MING
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 16, 2024 5:31 pm    Post subject:

manlisten wrote:

I'll never understand why people are so eager to blow up the team like they forget what it actually means. Last time around the Lakers had incredible luck with positioning and still ended up with a core that couldn't crack .500. Full teardowns rarely end in championships.


We should feel blessed to make the play-in? Or to win the inaugural in-season tournament?

It would be different if we were in the East, we would probably be the second best team in the East with this roster, but we are mediocre at best in the West.
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mad55557777
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 16, 2024 7:22 pm    Post subject:

From the looks of it now. Wood/hayes/cam are all going to opt in
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 16, 2024 7:30 pm    Post subject:

mad55557777 wrote:
From the looks of it now. Wood/hayes/cam are all going to opt in


Is Prince a 1 year at 4.5 million? Or does he have a player option
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 16, 2024 7:30 pm    Post subject:

JUST-MING wrote:
manlisten wrote:

I'll never understand why people are so eager to blow up the team like they forget what it actually means. Last time around the Lakers had incredible luck with positioning and still ended up with a core that couldn't crack .500. Full teardowns rarely end in championships.


We should feel blessed to make the play-in? Or to win the inaugural in-season tournament?

It would be different if we were in the East, we would probably be the second best team in the East with this roster, but we are mediocre at best in the West.


Blowing it up however has a better chance of making it worse whereas adding a key contributor or a couple of roster enhancing role players has a better chance of getting a ship. That’s the point. The Lakers as constructed look to me to be just 1 or 2 rosters moves from being a favorite whereas a rebuild looks more like a tour as a lottery team. If there is a chance at a ship you gotta go for it, there will be plenty of opportunities to be a rebuilding lottery team…all NBA teams do it regularly…but competing for a ship is more rare. With an opportunity to go for a ship that opportunity should not be passed on.
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 16, 2024 7:36 pm    Post subject:

CamReddish wrote:
mad55557777 wrote:
From the looks of it now. Wood/hayes/cam are all going to opt in


Is Prince a 1 year at 4.5 million? Or does he have a player option

No option for him
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Lakersfan1211
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 16, 2024 8:33 pm    Post subject:

mad55557777 wrote:
CamReddish wrote:
mad55557777 wrote:
From the looks of it now. Wood/hayes/cam are all going to opt in


Is Prince a 1 year at 4.5 million? Or does he have a player option

No option for him


Will we have the Bi-Annual Exception if he doesn't come back?
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mad55557777
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 16, 2024 9:53 pm    Post subject:

Lakersfan1211 wrote:
mad55557777 wrote:
CamReddish wrote:
mad55557777 wrote:
From the looks of it now. Wood/hayes/cam are all going to opt in


Is Prince a 1 year at 4.5 million? Or does he have a player option

No option for him


Will we have the Bi-Annual Exception if he doesn't come back?

Don’t think so, we are over the cap
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 16, 2024 9:53 pm    Post subject:

mad55557777 wrote:
Lakersfan1211 wrote:
mad55557777 wrote:
CamReddish wrote:
mad55557777 wrote:
From the looks of it now. Wood/hayes/cam are all going to opt in


Is Prince a 1 year at 4.5 million? Or does he have a player option

No option for him


Will we have the Bi-Annual Exception if he doesn't come back?

Don’t think so, we are over the cap


Oh damn that sucks.
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 16, 2024 10:47 pm    Post subject:

Hanging from Rafters wrote:
JUST-MING wrote:
manlisten wrote:

I'll never understand why people are so eager to blow up the team like they forget what it actually means. Last time around the Lakers had incredible luck with positioning and still ended up with a core that couldn't crack .500. Full teardowns rarely end in championships.


We should feel blessed to make the play-in? Or to win the inaugural in-season tournament?

It would be different if we were in the East, we would probably be the second best team in the East with this roster, but we are mediocre at best in the West.


Blowing it up however has a better chance of making it worse whereas adding a key contributor or a couple of roster enhancing role players has a better chance of getting a ship. That’s the point. The Lakers as constructed look to me to be just 1 or 2 rosters moves from being a favorite whereas a rebuild looks more like a tour as a lottery team. If there is a chance at a ship you gotta go for it, there will be plenty of opportunities to be a rebuilding lottery team…all NBA teams do it regularly…but competing for a ship is more rare. With an opportunity to go for a ship that opportunity should not be passed on.


Bulls blew it up after 97-98. In the ensuing 25 seasons (not counting this year):

Championships - 0
Finals - 0
ECF - 1
Semis - 3
1st Round - 8
Lottery - 13
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pjiddy
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 16, 2024 11:43 pm    Post subject:

I have zero confidence in this regime's ability to build through the draft. We sing the praises of the Buss bros a lot, but maybe it's time to rein that hype in a little. Lot of feel good stories on the FO's 2nd rounders and undrafted signees, but their first round picks have ranged from "lotto pick we won't miss" to "solid role player" to "meh." The last drafted Laker to make an all-star game as a Laker was drafted by *Jim Buss*.

Ingram, DLO and Randle all had all-star games between them, but have all had fairly uneven careers and none of them became superstars. Between the three of them they have 2 all-nba team selections (both Randle's, a 2nd and a 3rd Team all-nba). Which is one less than Tatum will have by himself after he gets 3rd First Team All-NBA

We don't draft well, we don't develop well. I think it says something that our biggest success stories (Clarkson, Caruso, Reaves, Kuzma, Hart, Nance Jr) were all older players--i.e. guys who had been developed somewhere else. They had the foundations to look decent enough here, but then better on their future teams. The one-and-done players have flailed in our development vacuum, crushed by win-now, when-are-we-gonna-get-a-superstar expectations and didn't even get their potential value pumped up enough to save us a future pick or two when we combined them all into one package for the ready-made superstar.

Even if you got more than 2-3 first rounders for AD and Lebron combined, it's gonna be by the guys who thought Jalen-Hood Schifino was worth waiting 2 years for (lmao). Tanking to get a low picks is out of the question for Jeanie so if you're honestly arguing a team of mediocre draft picks is going to be better than an AD/Lebron team, you have zero logic or history on your side, only a transparent anti-specific-player agenda.


Last edited by pjiddy on Tue Apr 16, 2024 11:58 pm; edited 1 time in total
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 16, 2024 11:56 pm    Post subject:

pjiddy wrote:
I have zero confidence in this regime's ability to build through the draft. We sing the praises of the Buss bros a lot, but maybe it's time to rein that hype in a little.


Austin Reaves.
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pjiddy
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 17, 2024 12:03 am    Post subject:

MJST wrote:
pjiddy wrote:
I have zero confidence in this regime's ability to build through the draft. We sing the praises of the Buss bros a lot, but maybe it's time to rein that hype in a little.


Austin Reaves.


Yes, if they have a proven talent, it's drafting older, more mature players that get overlooked due to the league-wide proclivity for youth. It's something Jess Buss once said was something they leaned into; a zag to the league zig. It's very useful for getting future role players. When they've tried to draft future all-stars, it hasn't worked out. Jim Buss is the only Buss brother who can say he drafted a Laker that played in an all-star game as a Laker.
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 17, 2024 12:09 am    Post subject:

pjiddy wrote:
MJST wrote:
pjiddy wrote:
I have zero confidence in this regime's ability to build through the draft. We sing the praises of the Buss bros a lot, but maybe it's time to rein that hype in a little.


Austin Reaves.


Yes, if they have a proven talent, it's drafting older, more mature players that get overlooked due to the league-wide proclivity for youth. It's something Jess Buss once said was something they leaned into; a zag to the league zig. It's very useful for getting future role players. When they've tried to draft future all-stars, it hasn't worked out. Jim Buss is the only Buss brother who can say he drafted a Laker that played in an all-star game as a Laker.


Jim had Bynum, Phil wanted Granger. Mitch wanted Sean May lmao.
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 17, 2024 3:56 am    Post subject:

Palin wrote:

Jim had Bynum, Phil wanted Granger. Mitch wanted Sean May lmao.


What a draft to remember!

Bender and #17!!!

We had a live chat here for that one (haven’t had one since then). Emplay was on ESPiN talking about the trade with Indiana. The cope after taking an unknown highschool kid (not the good one). The cope after failing to trade Devean and Slava for Indiana’s draft pick.
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 17, 2024 4:50 am    Post subject:

pjiddy wrote:
MJST wrote:
pjiddy wrote:
I have zero confidence in this regime's ability to build through the draft. We sing the praises of the Buss bros a lot, but maybe it's time to rein that hype in a little.


Austin Reaves.


Yes, if they have a proven talent, it's drafting older, more mature players that get overlooked due to the league-wide proclivity for youth. It's something Jess Buss once said was something they leaned into; a zag to the league zig. It's very useful for getting future role players. When they've tried to draft future all-stars, it hasn't worked out. Jim Buss is the only Buss brother who can say he drafted a Laker that played in an all-star game as a Laker.


Out of the last four lottery picks (that we kept), three have been all stars. Only Lonzo hasn't. Which players have we drafted that were expected to be all-stars otherwise?
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 17, 2024 6:02 am    Post subject:

Getting back on talks of the future, this team basically has

AD/Wood (likely to opt in)
LeBron
Rui/Vando/Lewis
Reaves/Christie(bird rights)
DLO(bird rights)/Vincent/JHS

all locked in with the exception of DLO who could go get a bag from Orlando if he has a solid showing vs Denver. If we retain every one, we will only have vet mins to give out on free agency market.
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 17, 2024 8:08 am    Post subject:

dcarter4kobe wrote:
Getting back on talks of the future, this team basically has

AD/Wood (likely to opt in)
LeBron
Rui/Vando/Lewis
Reaves/Christie(bird rights)
DLO(bird rights)/Vincent/JHS

all locked in with the exception of DLO who could go get a bag from Orlando if he has a solid showing vs Denver. If we retain every one, we will only have vet mins to give out on free agency market.


Can’t Hayes/CamRed also opt in? I think the team in the off season begins with:

AD/Hayes
Rui/Wood
LBJ/Vando/MaxLewis
AR/CamRed/MaxChris
Dlo/Vincent/JHSfino

I wouldn’t mind an upgrade at G/SF for increased productivity on defense and injury insurance, but I’m ok with the backcourt and wings as is. LBJ/AD can help back up the PF spot. The team will need to add a difference maker at backup C (~ 10ppg/10rpg/2bpg) however imo to be a legitimate contender for a ship.
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 17, 2024 8:20 am    Post subject:

Hanging from Rafters wrote:
dcarter4kobe wrote:
Getting back on talks of the future, this team basically has

AD/Wood (likely to opt in)
LeBron
Rui/Vando/Lewis
Reaves/Christie(bird rights)
DLO(bird rights)/Vincent/JHS

all locked in with the exception of DLO who could go get a bag from Orlando if he has a solid showing vs Denver. If we retain every one, we will only have vet mins to give out on free agency market.


Can’t Hayes/CamRed also opt in? I think the team in the off season begins with:

AD/Hayes
Rui/Wood
LBJ/Vando/MaxLewis
AR/CamRed/MaxChris
Dlo/Vincent/JHSfino

I wouldn’t mind an upgrade at G/SF for increased productivity on defense and injury insurance, but I’m ok with the backcourt and wings as is. LBJ/AD can help back up the PF spot. The team will need to add a difference maker at backup C (~ 10ppg/10rpg/2bpg) however imo to be a legitimate contender for a ship.

To be honest I'm hoping Hayes/Cam opt out as we have most of our roster already under contract as stated above in your depth chart.

I agree we need that type of big. If LeBron takes less than the max (2y100M) we could possibly have our Tax Payer MLE. Again assuming Hayes/Cam opts out and we keep our draft pick.

My targets would be
Andre Drummond
Precious Achiuwa
Goga Bitadze (VM-But has turned into a good defensive big. Still under radar)
Mason Plumlee

Ideally Isiah Hartestein but he will probably be getting full MLE money at the least.

I will also say we will basically be adding a healthy Gabe Vincent and Vando to this team which is a big deal. Those 2 guys have that dawg/energy we were missing most of the season. Along with hopefulyl pre Laker CWood.
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 17, 2024 8:27 am    Post subject:

Do GS look to rebuild and trade Looney? He would be a solid target
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 17, 2024 9:12 am    Post subject:

dcarter4kobe wrote:
Do GS look to rebuild and trade Looney? He would be a solid target


I think they should trade Kominga. He’s a bum. He was completely and utterly outplayed by Keegan Murray during the play-in.


Last edited by JUST-MING on Wed Apr 17, 2024 9:13 am; edited 1 time in total
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 17, 2024 9:13 am    Post subject:

JUST-MING wrote:
dcarter4kobe wrote:
Do GS look to rebuild and trade Looney? He would be a solid target


I think they should trade Kominga. He’s a bum. He was completely and utterly outplayed by Keegan Murray. He even made Harrison Barnes look decent.


Lol
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 17, 2024 9:36 am    Post subject:

dcarter4kobe wrote:
Do GS look to rebuild and trade Looney? He would be a solid target


A looney or Adams or Valenciunas or Zubac would be nice to have paired with Hayes
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