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ocho
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 Posted: Thu Apr 20, 2023 7:45 am Post subject: |
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| wolfpaclaker wrote: | | Can we just support the team and the coaching staff through one series? |
No. The idea is to be miserable and nasty in good times and bad. Enjoy nothing. Work on developing your forever moan.
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joeblow
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| Posted: Thu Apr 20, 2023 8:36 am Post subject: |
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| JUST-MING wrote: | | joeblow wrote: |
He inherited a championship foundation in LeBron + AD that won with the #1 defensive team in the Lakers in part by being bigger than their opponents. |
Someone want to post their record from last season?
2021-22 Lakers under Frank Vogel, 33-49 record, #22 net rating (#23 offensive rating, #21 defensive rating)
That’s what Darvin inherited. |
I said Ham inherited a "championship foundation in LeBron + AD". When that foundation is injured (as we saw over the past two+ seasons), of course you will get less than optimal results. Now that the two are relatively healthy, the coach has an obligation to make the most of what he has alongside them. Ham did not do that last night. Read carefully next time you choose to respond. |
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troy
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Joined: 30 Jan 2013
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| Posted: Thu Apr 20, 2023 8:46 am Post subject: |
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| joeblow wrote: | | JUST-MING wrote: | | joeblow wrote: |
He inherited a championship foundation in LeBron + AD that won with the #1 defensive team in the Lakers in part by being bigger than their opponents. |
Someone want to post their record from last season?
2021-22 Lakers under Frank Vogel, 33-49 record, #22 net rating (#23 offensive rating, #21 defensive rating)
That’s what Darvin inherited. |
I said Ham inherited a "championship foundation in LeBron + AD". When that foundation is injured (as we saw over the past two+ seasons), of course you will get less than optimal results. Now that the two are relatively healthy, the coach has an obligation to make the most of what he has alongside them. Ham did not do that last night. Read carefully next time you choose to respond. |
Fascinating how some tend to project their own ideas into threads. |
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Polarbear
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Joined: 03 Nov 2003
Posts: 6129
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| Posted: Thu Apr 20, 2023 8:48 am Post subject: |
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| joeblow wrote: | | JUST-MING wrote: | | joeblow wrote: |
He inherited a championship foundation in LeBron + AD that won with the #1 defensive team in the Lakers in part by being bigger than their opponents. |
Someone want to post their record from last season?
2021-22 Lakers under Frank Vogel, 33-49 record, #22 net rating (#23 offensive rating, #21 defensive rating)
That’s what Darvin inherited. |
I said Ham inherited a "championship foundation in LeBron + AD". When that foundation is injured (as we saw over the past two+ seasons), of course you will get less than optimal results. Now that the two are relatively healthy, the coach has an obligation to make the most of what he has alongside them. Ham did not do that last night. Read carefully next time you choose to respond. |
I am trying to figure out where you think that LeBron James and Anthony Davis are relatively healthy
They are playing neither one of them is healthy. If you can’t see that there’s something going on specifically with LeBron James you need to look a little closer. They are basically gutting it out. |
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Polarbear
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Joined: 03 Nov 2003
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| Posted: Thu Apr 20, 2023 8:52 am Post subject: |
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| unleasHell wrote: | Let's face it, except for Phil, the Lakers rarely hire good coaches in the last 20 years...
Always tired retreads or hopeful inexperienced newbies that don't pan out... |
Frank Vogel was pretty good
Darvin ham deserves the season to show that he can learn from the beginning to the end as he is a rookie coach
Since we actually put together balance roster, the team does have a winning record |
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Aeneas Hunter
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Joined: 12 Jul 2005
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| Posted: Thu Apr 20, 2023 9:58 am Post subject: |
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| joeblow wrote: | | JUST-MING wrote: | | joeblow wrote: |
He inherited a championship foundation in LeBron + AD that won with the #1 defensive team in the Lakers in part by being bigger than their opponents. |
Someone want to post their record from last season?
2021-22 Lakers under Frank Vogel, 33-49 record, #22 net rating (#23 offensive rating, #21 defensive rating)
That’s what Darvin inherited. |
I said Ham inherited a "championship foundation in LeBron + AD". When that foundation is injured (as we saw over the past two+ seasons), of course you will get less than optimal results. Now that the two are relatively healthy, the coach has an obligation to make the most of what he has alongside them. Ham did not do that last night. Read carefully next time you choose to respond. |
Okay, but it was a championship foundation three years ago. Lebron is not the same player that he was in 2020. So is this still a championship foundation now? We shall see.
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Nonamehero
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| Posted: Thu Apr 20, 2023 10:02 am Post subject: |
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| joeblow wrote: | Here's what frustrates me most about Ham.
He comes from a championship, defensive system in the Bucks that won in part by being bigger than their opponents. He inherited a championship foundation in LeBron + AD that won with the #1 defensive team in the Lakers in part by being bigger than their opponents.
So now that he is running things, he stupidly thinks that the path to a championship is to mostly play small ball like almost every other team. How does this make any sense?!
In the Game 2 loss vs. the Grizz last night, he went with three guards and two forwards (LeBron and Rui) in the second quarter and it was a complete disaster as Memphis then went on their big run. The team attacked the paint non-stop or shot over our little guys while grabbing a bunch of boards.
It didn't help that LeBron starts bricking a thousand 3PAs instead of passing it to team mates that CAN shoot during that time. That's Ham's fault too, since it's the job of a coach to reign in players who make idiotic choices.
Lastly, I am so tired of Ham wasting the skill sets of two of our best defenders in Troy Brown and Vanderbilt. The man keeps playing them out of position where they end up being ineffective on that side of the court. No, TBJ should not be playing small forward... he's only 6'6". No, Vanderbilt shouldn't be guarding players bigger than him (i.e. JJJ) because he just gets overpowered.
If and when Ham finally gets it in his head that we can succeed by being bigger than opponents (instead of as small or even smaller!) and therefore be more impactful in defense and rebounding, we'll be able to see how far this team can go. To that point, can someone please remind him that we have a seven foot defensive center on the roster in Mo Bamba who is ready to play, especially when AD sits down?! |
You hit the nail on the head.
Ham has been running that lineup (three guards and two forwards (LeBron and Rui) for the late first quarter and beginning of 2nd quarter, since the playin game.
and to no surprise, we have been digging ourselves a hole during that stretch every game!
and yesterday finally become the day we cannot come back from that hole.
and people are guessing why he is not playing Mo Bamba, there is no guessing needed, the dude has shown that he just want small lineup, bigs are no good to him except AD.
literally every game we play a uphill battle.
sometime he makes the right rotation in late 3 and 4 to come back.
but we put ourselves in a handicap from the beginning.
that is hard to win a championship like that |
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Nonamehero
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| Posted: Thu Apr 20, 2023 10:04 am Post subject: |
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So I have been reading other team post about their coach during the playoff
Some people defend Ham saying every fan base whine about their coach.
Which is true.
However this argument doesn’t prove Ham isn’t a complete tool of a coach.
But it seems like other fan base do complain similar like we do, especially on rotation.
It seems like almost every coach have some sort of weird fetish for certain inefficient player.
For example:
Lue used to keep playing Morris who just sucked for them(though he stopped in the playoff) and even now he doesn’t play Covington much even though he seems like the perfect 3 and D player. Similar to our Mo Bamba situation.
But for most of these complaints, it seems like it is usually one time thing, the coach doesn’t consistently make the same mistake over and over.
Lue is the most consistent one who people bash for his lineup.
But Lue offensively scheme is like miles ahead of Ham.
And you rarely see anyone can recognize anything that Ham does well, except for being a player coach and that he motivate people.
And some people say his defensive scheme are good, but it’s still a lot worst than Vogel, since he run those small lineups that get killed on the board.
Literally Ham complaints are so consistent, that the only similar one I seen since last season was Steve Nash from Nets fan base. And Steve Nash was a terrible coach. Ham might be slightly better, but not by much, and it might be due to Lebron being a good on court coach himself to cover some of that stupidity. |
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Hanging from Rafters
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Joined: 31 Jul 2018
Posts: 4456
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| Posted: Thu Apr 20, 2023 10:04 am Post subject: |
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| ocho wrote: | | wolfpaclaker wrote: | | Can we just support the team and the coaching staff through one series? |
No. The idea is to be miserable and nasty in good times and bad. Enjoy nothing. Work on developing your forever moan. |
or be in denial…depends on perspective. The team should have won, they did not because mainly lack of effort. I know there are different fans with different opinions but I can never understand accepting poor effort with a call to support the team. If you want to be positive I get that, but my expectations fail when I expect you and others to reciprocate understanding to get that from us expressing our disappointment.
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“When it looks as if it is a realistic possibility, I want to focus on winning a ship like it’s a goal that can’t be denied. I didn’t see that this off season.” |
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Hanging from Rafters
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| Posted: Thu Apr 20, 2023 10:13 am Post subject: |
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| Nonamehero wrote: | | joeblow wrote: | Here's what frustrates me most about Ham.
He comes from a championship, defensive system in the Bucks that won in part by being bigger than their opponents. He inherited a championship foundation in LeBron + AD that won with the #1 defensive team in the Lakers in part by being bigger than their opponents.
So now that he is running things, he stupidly thinks that the path to a championship is to mostly play small ball like almost every other team. How does this make any sense?!
In the Game 2 loss vs. the Grizz last night, he went with three guards and two forwards (LeBron and Rui) in the second quarter and it was a complete disaster as Memphis then went on their big run. The team attacked the paint non-stop or shot over our little guys while grabbing a bunch of boards.
It didn't help that LeBron starts bricking a thousand 3PAs instead of passing it to team mates that CAN shoot during that time. That's Ham's fault too, since it's the job of a coach to reign in players who make idiotic choices.
Lastly, I am so tired of Ham wasting the skill sets of two of our best defenders in Troy Brown and Vanderbilt. The man keeps playing them out of position where they end up being ineffective on that side of the court. No, TBJ should not be playing small forward... he's only 6'6". No, Vanderbilt shouldn't be guarding players bigger than him (i.e. JJJ) because he just gets overpowered.
If and when Ham finally gets it in his head that we can succeed by being bigger than opponents (instead of as small or even smaller!) and therefore be more impactful in defense and rebounding, we'll be able to see how far this team can go. To that point, can someone please remind him that we have a seven foot defensive center on the roster in Mo Bamba who is ready to play, especially when AD sits down?! |
You hit the nail on the head.
Ham has been running that lineup (three guards and two forwards (LeBron and Rui) for the late first quarter and beginning of 2nd quarter, since the playin game.
and to no surprise, we have been digging ourselves a hole during that stretch every game!
and yesterday finally become the day we cannot come back from that hole.
and people are guessing why he is not playing Mo Bamba, there is no guessing needed, the dude has shown that he just want small lineup, bigs are no good to him except AD.
literally every game we play a uphill battle.
sometime he makes the right rotation in late 3 and 4 to come back.
but we put ourselves in a handicap from the beginning.
that is hard to win a championship like that |
The team will do well, still good chance to beat the Grizz, maybe even go to the conf finals…could even win the chip…but what ever success will be in spite of Ham, not because of. Ham is Hampering the team success with idiotic line ups that even the game announcers and sport analyst notice and comment on.
Hoping for a chip but realistically the most favorable likely outcome to hope for is that the FO realizes we aren’t winning it with Ham, fire him and take our chances with Udoka.
_________________
“When it looks as if it is a realistic possibility, I want to focus on winning a ship like it’s a goal that can’t be denied. I didn’t see that this off season.” |
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joeblow
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Joined: 24 Nov 2008
Posts: 3090
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| Posted: Thu Apr 20, 2023 10:16 am Post subject: |
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| Polarbear wrote: | | joeblow wrote: | | JUST-MING wrote: | | joeblow wrote: |
He inherited a championship foundation in LeBron + AD that won with the #1 defensive team in the Lakers in part by being bigger than their opponents. |
Someone want to post their record from last season?
2021-22 Lakers under Frank Vogel, 33-49 record, #22 net rating (#23 offensive rating, #21 defensive rating)
That’s what Darvin inherited. |
I said Ham inherited a "championship foundation in LeBron + AD". When that foundation is injured (as we saw over the past two+ seasons), of course you will get less than optimal results. Now that the two are relatively healthy, the coach has an obligation to make the most of what he has alongside them. Ham did not do that last night. Read carefully next time you choose to respond. |
I am trying to figure out where you think that LeBron James and Anthony Davis are relatively healthy
They are playing neither one of them is healthy. If you can’t see that there’s something going on specifically with LeBron James you need to look a little closer. They are basically gutting it out. |
Gutting it out, relatively healthy... tomato, tomahto.... call it what you want, but pretty much all of the teams have banged up significant players doing their best in the playoffs.
That's why I specifically used the word "relatively", because if they are healthy enough to put in 30+ minutes a game, play ball. If AD is able to string together nine 30+ points and 10+ rebounding games consecutively and he goes on to win West Coast Player of the Week near the end of the season, play ball. If that same player is able to disrupt his opponent with seven(!) blocks in Game 1 of the playoffs, play ball. If LeBron can average 25 points (on 50% shooting) and 11 rebounds in the first two games of the playoffs, play ball.
Feel free to weep over their respective owies if it helps you sleep at night. To me, the fact that neither one is 100% is not the main problem at all. Ham is coaching this team into elimination if he keeps up these ridiculous rotations with his love affair with small ball Hobbit lineups. |
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Nonamehero
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| Posted: Thu Apr 20, 2023 10:20 am Post subject: |
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| Hanging from Rafters wrote: | | Nonamehero wrote: | | joeblow wrote: | Here's what frustrates me most about Ham.
He comes from a championship, defensive system in the Bucks that won in part by being bigger than their opponents. He inherited a championship foundation in LeBron + AD that won with the #1 defensive team in the Lakers in part by being bigger than their opponents.
So now that he is running things, he stupidly thinks that the path to a championship is to mostly play small ball like almost every other team. How does this make any sense?!
In the Game 2 loss vs. the Grizz last night, he went with three guards and two forwards (LeBron and Rui) in the second quarter and it was a complete disaster as Memphis then went on their big run. The team attacked the paint non-stop or shot over our little guys while grabbing a bunch of boards.
It didn't help that LeBron starts bricking a thousand 3PAs instead of passing it to team mates that CAN shoot during that time. That's Ham's fault too, since it's the job of a coach to reign in players who make idiotic choices.
Lastly, I am so tired of Ham wasting the skill sets of two of our best defenders in Troy Brown and Vanderbilt. The man keeps playing them out of position where they end up being ineffective on that side of the court. No, TBJ should not be playing small forward... he's only 6'6". No, Vanderbilt shouldn't be guarding players bigger than him (i.e. JJJ) because he just gets overpowered.
If and when Ham finally gets it in his head that we can succeed by being bigger than opponents (instead of as small or even smaller!) and therefore be more impactful in defense and rebounding, we'll be able to see how far this team can go. To that point, can someone please remind him that we have a seven foot defensive center on the roster in Mo Bamba who is ready to play, especially when AD sits down?! |
You hit the nail on the head.
Ham has been running that lineup (three guards and two forwards (LeBron and Rui) for the late first quarter and beginning of 2nd quarter, since the playin game.
and to no surprise, we have been digging ourselves a hole during that stretch every game!
and yesterday finally become the day we cannot come back from that hole.
and people are guessing why he is not playing Mo Bamba, there is no guessing needed, the dude has shown that he just want small lineup, bigs are no good to him except AD.
literally every game we play a uphill battle.
sometime he makes the right rotation in late 3 and 4 to come back.
but we put ourselves in a handicap from the beginning.
that is hard to win a championship like that |
The team will do well, still good chance to beat the Grizz, maybe even go to the conf finals…could even win the chip…but what ever success will be in spite of Ham, not because of. Ham is Hampering the team success with idiotic line ups that even the game announcers and sport analyst notice and comment on.
Hoping for a chip but realistically the most favorable likely outcome to hope for is that the FO realizes we aren’t winning it with Ham, fire him and take our chances with Udoka. |
yes we will beat the Grizz most likely, with Ja out.
Though I think the chance of winning a championship is 0 when your coach give you a consistent - 10 lineup every game.
that is just too much of an uphill battle to ask any team to climb out of.
if Lebron was 3 years younger, and not managing active injury, and AD is also 100%, then maybe.
but as of now, we are not good enough to afford the Ham handicap and win the chip |
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Hanging from Rafters
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Joined: 31 Jul 2018
Posts: 4456
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| Posted: Thu Apr 20, 2023 10:24 am Post subject: |
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| joeblow wrote: | | Polarbear wrote: | | joeblow wrote: | | JUST-MING wrote: | | joeblow wrote: |
He inherited a championship foundation in LeBron + AD that won with the #1 defensive team in the Lakers in part by being bigger than their opponents. |
Someone want to post their record from last season?
2021-22 Lakers under Frank Vogel, 33-49 record, #22 net rating (#23 offensive rating, #21 defensive rating)
That’s what Darvin inherited. |
I said Ham inherited a "championship foundation in LeBron + AD". When that foundation is injured (as we saw over the past two+ seasons), of course you will get less than optimal results. Now that the two are relatively healthy, the coach has an obligation to make the most of what he has alongside them. Ham did not do that last night. Read carefully next time you choose to respond. |
I am trying to figure out where you think that LeBron James and Anthony Davis are relatively healthy
They are playing neither one of them is healthy. If you can’t see that there’s something going on specifically with LeBron James you need to look a little closer. They are basically gutting it out. |
Gutting it out, relatively healthy... tomato, tomahto.... call it what you want, but pretty much all of the teams have banged up significant players doing their best in the playoffs.
That's why I specifically used the word "relatively", because if they are healthy enough to put in 30+ minutes a game, play ball. If AD is able to string together nine 30+ points and 10+ rebounding games consecutively and he goes on to win West Coast Player of the Week near the end of the season, play ball. If that same player is able to disrupt his opponent with seven(!) blocks in Game 1 of the playoffs, play ball. If LeBron can average 25 points (on 50% shooting) and 11 rebounds in the first two games of the playoffs, play ball.
Feel free to weep over their respective owies if it helps you sleep at night. To me, the fact that neither one is 100% is not the main problem at all. Ham is coaching this team into elimination if he keeps up these ridiculous rotations with his love affair with small ball Hobbit lineups. |
Dude…spot on 👍. You shouldn’t even have to defend your relatively healthy comment because it is obviously truth! Nicks? Sure. Hampered nagging ailments? Of course. But no minute’s restriction and playing 36+ minutes a game without limping while throwing down thunderous dunks = relatively (not necessarily completely) healthy.
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“When it looks as if it is a realistic possibility, I want to focus on winning a ship like it’s a goal that can’t be denied. I didn’t see that this off season.” |
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ocho
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Posts: 53845
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| Posted: Thu Apr 20, 2023 10:48 am Post subject: |
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| Hanging from Rafters wrote: | | ocho wrote: | | wolfpaclaker wrote: | | Can we just support the team and the coaching staff through one series? |
No. The idea is to be miserable and nasty in good times and bad. Enjoy nothing. Work on developing your forever moan. |
or be in denial…depends on perspective. The team should have won, they did not because mainly lack of effort. I know there are different fans with different opinions but I can never understand accepting poor effort with a call to support the team. If you want to be positive I get that, but my expectations fail when I expect you and others to reciprocate understanding to get that from us expressing our disappointment. |
There are fans who expect maximum effort and focus every single game from every single player and when they don’t get it they light their hair on fire and unleash a firehose of complaining and negativity because they don’t have a healthy outlet for disappointment. The reality is these players are human beings who are flawed and tired and you’re just not going to get their best every night. Sometimes (and I know folks like to pretend the other team has nothing to do with this) you face an opponent who has more at stake and just has a better night. It’s ok. This isn’t March Madness. It’s a 7 game series and we aren’t going to sweep each one. We are playing a very tough team and just because the media spent days declaring them dead after one game doesn’t make it so. It’s not about “accepting poor effort”. It’s more about having a healthy understanding of the ebbs and flows of a series.
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Hanging from Rafters
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Joined: 31 Jul 2018
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| Posted: Thu Apr 20, 2023 11:04 am Post subject: |
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| ocho wrote: | | Hanging from Rafters wrote: | | ocho wrote: | | wolfpaclaker wrote: | | Can we just support the team and the coaching staff through one series? |
No. The idea is to be miserable and nasty in good times and bad. Enjoy nothing. Work on developing your forever moan. |
or be in denial…depends on perspective. The team should have won, they did not because mainly lack of effort. I know there are different fans with different opinions but I can never understand accepting poor effort with a call to support the team. If you want to be positive I get that, but my expectations fail when I expect you and others to reciprocate understanding to get that from us expressing our disappointment. |
There are fans who expect maximum effort and focus every single game from every single player and when they don’t get it they light their hair on fire and unleash a firehose of complaining and negativity because they don’t have a healthy outlet for disappointment. The reality is these players are human beings who are flawed and tired and you’re just not going to get their best every night. Sometimes (and I know folks like to pretend the other team has nothing to do with this) you face an opponent who has more at stake and just has a better night. It’s ok. This isn’t March Madness. It’s a 7 game series and we aren’t going to sweep each one. We are playing a very tough team and just because the media spent days declaring them dead after one game doesn’t make it so. It’s not about “accepting poor effort”. It’s more about having a healthy understanding of the ebbs and flows of a series. |
Nah bro, it’s not that…expecting max effort every single game from every single player…you push the narrative falsely to that extreme to keep from looking at the actual opinions so that you can focus on the extreme to oppose that extreme instead of facing the realities of what we are actually saying.
We’re complaining about the team consistently starting out flat. The coach consistently playing line ups that give up leads and/or put the team in deficits. Consistently sticking with things that aren’t working like LBJ/Rui center front court rotations with Mo Bamba…who has shown an excellent ability to block shots…on the bench while competing against a team in the Grizz that are #1 in points scored in the paint. We don’t understand losing under those circumstances and are pointing it out…not expecting the extreme like you mentioned.
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“When it looks as if it is a realistic possibility, I want to focus on winning a ship like it’s a goal that can’t be denied. I didn’t see that this off season.” |
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ocho
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| Posted: Thu Apr 20, 2023 11:23 am Post subject: |
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Well we’ll agree to disagree with regards to the analysis of your expectations.
As to the criticism of rotations (the laziest of all coaching critiques) I think there’s a fair question to be raised about why Bamba isn’t getting more minutes. I’ll probably agree with you that he should get some burn. The non-AD minutes are a problem. Most teams have issues when this star or that star sits. I’m not sure the reality of Mo Bamba is the panacea you might think it is, but I think it’s a reasonable thing to discuss. Most of the critiques I read, however, are of the extreme variety that you don’t think exists. Benching everyone including LeBron. Yo-yoing everyone’s minutes based on how the last 3 minutes of their game went. Calling a timeout whenever the opponent makes two baskets and if we don’t the coach is an idiot. The reality of building a rotation is a lot more complicated than it is when you play 2K. We aren’t always going to have a good answer for everything and that doesn’t mean the coaches are idiots.
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Hanging from Rafters
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| Posted: Thu Apr 20, 2023 12:55 pm Post subject: |
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| ocho wrote: | Well we’ll agree to disagree with regards to the analysis of your expectations.
As to the criticism of rotations (the laziest of all coaching critiques) I think there’s a fair question to be raised about why Bamba isn’t getting more minutes. I’ll probably agree with you that he should get some burn. The non-AD minutes are a problem. Most teams have issues when this star or that star sits. I’m not sure the reality of Mo Bamba is the panacea you might think it is, but I think it’s a reasonable thing to discuss. Most of the critiques I read, however, are of the extreme variety that you don’t think exists. Benching everyone including LeBron. Yo-yoing everyone’s minutes based on how the last 3 minutes of their game went. Calling a timeout whenever the opponent makes two baskets and if we don’t the coach is an idiot. The reality of building a rotation is a lot more complicated than it is when you play 2K. We aren’t always going to have a good answer for everything and that doesn’t mean the coaches are idiots. |
Again…the false exaggerated reality is created because it’s easier to disagree with than looking at the actual issue.
1- Not saying Mo is a panacea, just one possible course of action that logically may provide better results than the poor pairing of Rui/LBJ front court.
2- Didn’t say I don’t think the extreme critiques don’t exist, said that you created some
3- Not advocating yo-yo ing everyone’s minutes based on last 3 minutes, advocating playing Mo back up center minutes based on last several games
4- Not advocating calling a time out because of two made baskets, the idea is using time outs when bad trends are recognized.
5- The suggestions aren’t based on 2k, they are based on getting killed in the paint when AD is out with a player on the bench that has shown in the past that he is an above average rim protecting shot blocker while the players used at center have been ineffective in the last 3 games.
We may disagree…I get that…but let’s disagree on what is really being communicated, not things made up.
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“When it looks as if it is a realistic possibility, I want to focus on winning a ship like it’s a goal that can’t be denied. I didn’t see that this off season.” |
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Nonamehero
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| Posted: Thu Apr 20, 2023 1:10 pm Post subject: |
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| ocho wrote: | Well we’ll agree to disagree with regards to the analysis of your expectations.
As to the criticism of rotations (the laziest of all coaching critiques) I think there’s a fair question to be raised about why Bamba isn’t getting more minutes. I’ll probably agree with you that he should get some burn. The non-AD minutes are a problem. Most teams have issues when this star or that star sits. I’m not sure the reality of Mo Bamba is the panacea you might think it is, but I think it’s a reasonable thing to discuss. Most of the critiques I read, however, are of the extreme variety that you don’t think exists. Benching everyone including LeBron. Yo-yoing everyone’s minutes based on how the last 3 minutes of their game went. Calling a timeout whenever the opponent makes two baskets and if we don’t the coach is an idiot. The reality of building a rotation is a lot more complicated than it is when you play 2K. We aren’t always going to have a good answer for everything and that doesn’t mean the coaches are idiots. |
There are people who look at thing at its core and simplify it, and there are people who tries to fog up everything and make something simple seem complicated.
you sir are doing the latter.
Of course there are more to coaching than what we see.
and most likely none of us on this forum are qualified to be a NBA coach.
but doesn't hide the fact that Ham fail at his job consistently with lineup, rotations, lack of scheming, adjustment. We can all see it and critique it.
I am curious how you would judge whether or not a coach is good or not.
do you think Steve Nash was a good coach?
do you think Luke Walton was a good coach?
and how does Ham compare to these bad coaches?
How long does the Coach have to make obvious mistake for you to think they are bad? |
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ocho
Retired Number
Joined: 24 May 2005
Posts: 53845
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| Posted: Thu Apr 20, 2023 1:26 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | We may disagree…I get that…but let’s disagree on what is really being communicated, not things made up. |
To be clear, I wasn’t ascribing any of this to you specifically. I was speaking broadly of the critiques I read here regularly and I haven’t created them or made any of them up. If this doesn’t apply to you, that’s great. If you think the stuff I described doesn’t exist all over this board then you haven’t been reading much of it. We can talk about things like giving Mo a shift here or there while also recognizing that he hasn’t played very well when he has gotten minutes and there’s a strong chance it wouldn’t make much of a difference. My guess is the coaching staff, who work with these players every day in practice and in games, aren’t playing Mo because the idea never occurred to them. It likely has more to do with not liking what they see. They can and do make mistakes, and like all people, have blind spots and deficiencies. I just haven’t seen anything inexplicable or outrageous in regards to their decision making but a great deal of the commentary on this board treats him he’s so hopelessly stupid he can’t see the obvious solutions in front of him.
As an example, in this very thread I asked one of our more emotional posters for specifics on why our coach is so terrible and he cited a regular season game when a small lineup was trotted out there that the poster found unacceptable. His gripe was we put a bunch of small guards out there with no defensive center. When I pointed out that the roster didn’t have a defensive center available to play that night, and because of roster construction and injury virtually the entire team was 6’6 and under, he said “there were other players.” I pushed him further on it and he went into hiding. This discourse is fairly typical.
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Hanging from Rafters
Star Player
Joined: 31 Jul 2018
Posts: 4456
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| Posted: Thu Apr 20, 2023 1:33 pm Post subject: |
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| Nonamehero wrote: | | ocho wrote: | Well we’ll agree to disagree with regards to the analysis of your expectations.
As to the criticism of rotations (the laziest of all coaching critiques) I think there’s a fair question to be raised about why Bamba isn’t getting more minutes. I’ll probably agree with you that he should get some burn. The non-AD minutes are a problem. Most teams have issues when this star or that star sits. I’m not sure the reality of Mo Bamba is the panacea you might think it is, but I think it’s a reasonable thing to discuss. Most of the critiques I read, however, are of the extreme variety that you don’t think exists. Benching everyone including LeBron. Yo-yoing everyone’s minutes based on how the last 3 minutes of their game went. Calling a timeout whenever the opponent makes two baskets and if we don’t the coach is an idiot. The reality of building a rotation is a lot more complicated than it is when you play 2K. We aren’t always going to have a good answer for everything and that doesn’t mean the coaches are idiots. |
There are people who look at thing at its core and simplify it, and there are people who tries to fog up everything and make something simple seem complicated.
you sir are doing the latter.
Of course there are more to coaching than what we see.
and most likely none of us on this forum are qualified to be a NBA coach.
but doesn't hide the fact that Ham fail at his job consistently with lineup, rotations, lack of scheming, adjustment. We can all see it and critique it.
I am curious how you would judge whether or not a coach is good or not.
do you think Steve Nash was a good coach?
do you think Luke Walton was a good coach?
and how does Ham compare to these bad coaches?
How long does the Coach have to make obvious mistake for you to think they are bad? |
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Nonamehero
Starting Rotation
Joined: 31 Oct 2018
Posts: 816
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| Posted: Thu Apr 20, 2023 5:44 pm Post subject: |
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| ocho wrote: | | Quote: | | We may disagree…I get that…but let’s disagree on what is really being communicated, not things made up. |
To be clear, I wasn’t ascribing any of this to you specifically. I was speaking broadly of the critiques I read here regularly and I haven’t created them or made any of them up. If this doesn’t apply to you, that’s great. If you think the stuff I described doesn’t exist all over this board then you haven’t been reading much of it. We can talk about things like giving Mo a shift here or there while also recognizing that he hasn’t played very well when he has gotten minutes and there’s a strong chance it wouldn’t make much of a difference. My guess is the coaching staff, who work with these players every day in practice and in games, aren’t playing Mo because the idea never occurred to them. It likely has more to do with not liking what they see. They can and do make mistakes, and like all people, have blind spots and deficiencies. I just haven’t seen anything inexplicable or outrageous in regards to their decision making but a great deal of the commentary on this board treats him he’s so hopelessly stupid he can’t see the obvious solutions in front of him.
As an example, in this very thread I asked one of our more emotional posters for specifics on why our coach is so terrible and he cited a regular season game when a small lineup was trotted out there that the poster found unacceptable. His gripe was we put a bunch of small guards out there with no defensive center. When I pointed out that the roster didn’t have a defensive center available to play that night, and because of roster construction and injury virtually the entire team was 6’6 and under, he said “there were other players.” I pushed him further on it and he went into hiding. This discourse is fairly typical. |
lol sorry this forum is hard to follow every post.
so sometime I lose track.
Honestly I didn't watch much basketball this season until Westbrick got traded.
Once in awhile I glance at this forum, and saw the narrative that Ham sucks.
But since I didnt watch games myself back then, so I didnt even really have an opinion on it myself.
after the Westbrick trade, I got excited about our winning potential.
But right when I started watching after a week, I realized Ham is going to be our shortcoming.
It is like Luke Walton 2.0 all over again, except that Ham is better at being a player coach, and that he have good relationship with everyone, except that he cant coach, Luke Walton sucked at coaching and his arrogant attitude pissed everyone off.
The reason I point out the 4 guard lineup is because I thought it was stupid enough that he keep using 3 guards lineup (Westbrick, Beverley, Schroder)
and I cant imagine someone would go even further than that with 4 guards.
if you say that during a stretch, they had no better alternative than consistently running 4 small guards (Westbrick, Beverley, Schroder, Reaves).
hard to believe, but ok, whatever, I am not gonna waste my time and look into all the games from earlier this season just to prove you wrong.
Ham raised too many red flags already to me to have much hope:
- running long stretch without timeout while we are getting killed, I can understand doing this in the regular season, but the playoff?!? it seems like he just have brain freeze
- rotations that dont work, and he keep going to it, especially his fetish for small lineups.
- obvious matchup that he cant see, like having Vando guarding opponent best perimeter player instead of opponent post players. just slow at adjusting to obvious things
- from the way we play offensively, we dont seem to have a plan to handle double teams on AD or taking advantage of our size, the lowest hanging fruit we need to cover, but we dont. It seem like most of our scheme is let the players figure it out on the fly. I literally see Lebron drawing up plays for him on the bench
- just the way he talks to the media, the lack of intelligence that is present during his speech.
- I remember he had a brain freeze with timeout or something during a game, and Westbrick had to remind him. I am sure there are more examples of this, he is just not on top of his stuff. and looks completely incompetent at times. |
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giordan0
Star Player
Joined: 05 Jan 2016
Posts: 1017
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| Posted: Thu Apr 20, 2023 7:24 pm Post subject: |
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| Playing LBJ at center vs JJJ/Tilman for stretches. Great lineup management. |
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Polarbear
Star Player
Joined: 03 Nov 2003
Posts: 6129
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| Posted: Fri Apr 21, 2023 12:57 am Post subject: |
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| Nonamehero wrote: | So I have been reading other team post about their coach during the playoff
Some people defend Ham saying every fan base whine about their coach.
Which is true.
However this argument doesn’t prove Ham isn’t a complete tool of a coach.
But it seems like other fan base do complain similar like we do, especially on rotation.
It seems like almost every coach have some sort of weird fetish for certain inefficient player.
For example:
Lue used to keep playing Morris who just sucked for them(though he stopped in the playoff) and even now he doesn’t play Covington much even though he seems like the perfect 3 and D player. Similar to our Mo Bamba situation.
But for most of these complaints, it seems like it is usually one time thing, the coach doesn’t consistently make the same mistake over and over.
Lue is the most consistent one who people bash for his lineup.
But Lue offensively scheme is like miles ahead of Ham.
And you rarely see anyone can recognize anything that Ham does well, except for being a player coach and that he motivate people.
And some people say his defensive scheme are good, but it’s still a lot worst than Vogel, since he run those small lineups that get killed on the board.
Literally Ham complaints are so consistent, that the only similar one I seen since last season was Steve Nash from Nets fan base. And Steve Nash was a terrible coach. Ham might be slightly better, but not by much, and it might be due to Lebron being a good on court coach himself to cover some of that stupidity. |
First of all motivation is one of the main characteristics of an NBA head coach so you discount that way too much
Second, you say that vogals defense is better than hams the Lakers have the number one defense in the league. How much better do you expected to be? |
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Polarbear
Star Player
Joined: 03 Nov 2003
Posts: 6129
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| Posted: Fri Apr 21, 2023 12:58 am Post subject: |
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| giordan0 wrote: | | Playing LBJ at center vs JJJ/Tilman for stretches. Great lineup management. |
It’s definitely one of the things that I don’t agree with playing LeBron at the four and then switching him to the five when Anthony Davis goes off the floor is a mistake. In my opinion you can see that LeBron James is totally gassed by the time these games are over.
What was the point of trading for Mo Bamba? If you were just going to sit him he should be the first one off the bench when Anthony Davis goes out for arrest for crying out loud play Wenyen Gabriel at least |
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Polarbear
Star Player
Joined: 03 Nov 2003
Posts: 6129
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| Posted: Fri Apr 21, 2023 1:03 am Post subject: |
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| Nonamehero wrote: | | ocho wrote: | Well we’ll agree to disagree with regards to the analysis of your expectations.
As to the criticism of rotations (the laziest of all coaching critiques) I think there’s a fair question to be raised about why Bamba isn’t getting more minutes. I’ll probably agree with you that he should get some burn. The non-AD minutes are a problem. Most teams have issues when this star or that star sits. I’m not sure the reality of Mo Bamba is the panacea you might think it is, but I think it’s a reasonable thing to discuss. Most of the critiques I read, however, are of the extreme variety that you don’t think exists. Benching everyone including LeBron. Yo-yoing everyone’s minutes based on how the last 3 minutes of their game went. Calling a timeout whenever the opponent makes two baskets and if we don’t the coach is an idiot. The reality of building a rotation is a lot more complicated than it is when you play 2K. We aren’t always going to have a good answer for everything and that doesn’t mean the coaches are idiots. |
There are people who look at thing at its core and simplify it, and there are people who tries to fog up everything and make something simple seem complicated.
you sir are doing the latter.
Of course there are more to coaching than what we see.
and most likely none of us on this forum are qualified to be a NBA coach.
but doesn't hide the fact that Ham fail at his job consistently with lineup, rotations, lack of scheming, adjustment. We can all see it and critique it.
I am curious how you would judge whether or not a coach is good or not.
do you think Steve Nash was a good coach?
do you think Luke Walton was a good coach?
and how does Ham compare to these bad coaches?
How long does the Coach have to make obvious mistake for you to think they are bad? |
First of all you pre-face all of this by starting on its face that ham is a rookie coach He is going to make rookie coach mistakes.
Then whenever you get past that you look at, does the team fight even whenever they lose are the in every game because they don’t give up do they show improvement do they show energy do they win?
The coach gets to take credit in all of those things just like he gets blamed for the losses. The fact of the matter is since the trade deadline this team has one of the best records in the NBA you cannot argue with those statistics. |
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