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Denny_Russo
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 Posted: Tue Jun 13, 2023 4:01 am Post subject: |
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| lakersken80 wrote: | | Jokic winning a championship and being Finals MVP and two time regular season MVP says the big man never went away. They just didn't have the right player representing that position. |
Jokic's very atypical for a big. I can safely say there won't be another like him. Not every big has elite court vision and awareness, or sheer dominance from the perimeter. He's Chris Webber on steroids and one of the GOAT bigs, but also exploitable on defense. Who they surrounded him with sealed the championship. Hard-nosed defenders like Gordon, Brown, KCP matched the Heat's physicality and covered for his defensive woes, while Murray provided significant offensive support. Gordon at 4 was such a godsend for them. The pieces just fit.
With that being said, I think every team will be looking for the next Jokic in the following drafts, just like how they were looking for the next Curry in the last decade. It's a copycat league, but I think the game is skewing towards the multifaceted wing these days (Tatum, Ingram, Siakam, etc).
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ThePageDude
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| Posted: Tue Jun 13, 2023 4:29 am Post subject: |
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| ducasse wrote: | | AtlLaker wrote: | | They will beat us again…AD cannot guard Joker and we don’t have anyone that can guard Murray. If we run the same team back with role players. |
Need a prime Marc Gasol to offer resistance to Jokic bullying his way to the rim and make him shoot tougher contested shots. AD and Bam aren't big enough. |
Disagree with the OP. Post scoring is a minor aspect of Jokic's game, it's his playmaking that makes him who he is. Teams that focus on his scoring are destined to lose, teams that can limit his playmaking *consistently* AND then attack him on defense with quickness have a chance.
This is why I don't buy any of these "AD has to man up and defend Jokic" arguments at all, AD can't be 4 defenders on the SAME play: deny Jokic the post, close-out on a Denver shooter being assisted by Jokic, shot-block a Denver cutter being assisted by Jokic, deny Jokic a 3.
Last edited by ThePageDude on Tue Jun 13, 2023 4:32 am; edited 1 time in total |
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Hanging from Rafters
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Joined: 31 Jul 2018
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| Posted: Tue Jun 13, 2023 4:31 am Post subject: |
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| Halflife wrote: | | Brawn13 wrote: | | How do we plan on making a run next year? Jokic is quite a bit better than AD and Lebron. It’ll take more than adding a couple of well fitting role players |
We don’t without huge changes. Not a piece here or there. |
It’s an over reaction to consider Denver as so dominant. They are a well oiled machine that’s been together with their coach for years. The Lakers threw together a team with 3 new starters at/near the trade deadline with a 1st year coach and the only difference in winning the series or losing was their ability to close games. That is significant, congratulations Denver for an amazing accomplishment. It wasn’t dominance though, still a championship is a championship so they deserve respect.
I’m anxious to see what would happen with Dlo/Vand/Rui/Mo playing a full year with Shro/AR/LBJ/AD.
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Last edited by Hanging from Rafters on Tue Jun 13, 2023 4:33 am; edited 1 time in total |
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troy
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| Posted: Tue Jun 13, 2023 4:32 am Post subject: |
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| One thing that is not really acknowledged about Jokic is how injury proof his style of play is. His footwork and BBall IQ allows him to stay closer to the ground, with minimal expansion of his gait. As such, he doesn't put undo pressure on his joints and back from coming down from high jumps, and he reduces his chances of stepping on someone's foot and rolling his ankle because his feet are not usually spread out. Injuries are a part of the game, and Jokic has had them, yes. But if you look at his career, based on his style of play, he rarely misses multiple games. He's been in the league for 8 seasons, and he's averaged about 76 games played each season. Compare this to the likes of Anthony Davis, or some of the other Bigs in the league. I wish AD would learn to control his movements better on the court, a-la Jokic. |
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defense
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| Posted: Tue Jun 13, 2023 5:17 am Post subject: |
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| troy wrote: | | One thing that is not really acknowledged about Jokic is how injury proof his style of play is. His footwork and BBall IQ allows him to stay closer to the ground, with minimal expansion of his gait. As such, he doesn't put undo pressure on his joints and back from coming down from high jumps, and he reduces his chances of stepping on someone's foot and rolling his ankle because his feet are not usually spread out. Injuries are a part of the game, and Jokic has had them, yes. But if you look at his career, based on his style of play, he rarely misses multiple games. He's been in the league for 8 seasons, and he's averaged about 76 games played each season. Compare this to the likes of Anthony Davis, or some of the other Bigs in the league. I wish AD would learn to control his movements better on the court, a-la Jokic. |
Helps to be big, heavy and skilled. Luka uses his size the same way. They can control the tempo. |
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lakersfan8
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| Posted: Tue Jun 13, 2023 5:34 am Post subject: |
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| Everyone focus on how we need to improve our defense in order to beat Denver. But I think if we have a reliable 3rd scoring option outside LBJ and AD, we would have won the series |
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SGV-Laker fan
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Joined: 23 May 2013
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| Posted: Tue Jun 13, 2023 6:09 am Post subject: |
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| lakersfan8 wrote: | | Everyone focus on how we need to improve our defense in order to beat Denver. But I think if we have a reliable 3rd scoring option outside LBJ and AD, we would have won the series |
agreed, best defense is a dynamic offense. often time during the playoffs we went on scoring droughts when LeBron decided to milk away 23 secs and then launched a contested three or AD turned into this turnover machine again. despite his baggage, if Kyrie was on this Laker team we would've won the whole thing.
this is an offensive league. no teams play good defensive during the regular season anyway. all NBA players are supreme athletes, defensive in NBA isn't about schemes, it's about effort, when the stage gets bigger, players will step up their defensive effort, even for those who never known to be good defenders.
Last edited by SGV-Laker fan on Tue Jun 13, 2023 6:12 am; edited 2 times in total |
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Four Decade Bandwagon
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| Posted: Tue Jun 13, 2023 6:10 am Post subject: |
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Miami fan is having a couple of really bad days.
Heat had to watch the Nuggets celebrate a championship last night.
Tonight they are likely watching Vegas celebrate their win for the Stanley Cup.
Very similar story lines too. Overachieving teams that surprised everyone by beating the highly favored teams in earlier rounds only to meet better teams and short series in the Finals.
Will be interesting to see if the Panthers do what the Heat couldn’t and extend the series. Doubt it, but that is why we watch the games. |
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lakersfever714
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| Posted: Tue Jun 13, 2023 6:33 am Post subject: |
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I wonder what would happen to our defense if we still had one of the best defensive coaches in the biz? I wonder...
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EZ-Ryder
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| Posted: Tue Jun 13, 2023 8:34 am Post subject: |
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| Hanging from Rafters wrote: | | Halflife wrote: | | Brawn13 wrote: | | How do we plan on making a run next year? Jokic is quite a bit better than AD and Lebron. It’ll take more than adding a couple of well fitting role players |
We don’t without huge changes. Not a piece here or there. |
It’s an over reaction to consider Denver as so dominant. They are a well oiled machine that’s been together with their coach for years. The Lakers threw together a team with 3 new starters at/near the trade deadline with a 1st year coach and the only difference in winning the series or losing was their ability to close games. That is significant, congratulations Denver for an amazing accomplishment. It wasn’t dominance though, still a championship is a championship so they deserve respect.
I’m anxious to see what would happen with Dlo/Vand/Rui/Mo playing a full year with Shro/AR/LBJ/AD. |
Gotta disagree here. 16 - 4 playoff record and a +8 net rating is dominant. Losing 1 game combined between the WCFs and Finals is dominant. They barely broke a sweat winning this ring. There’s an argument to be made that this was the most dominant playoff run since the Warriors had KD. |
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SGV-Laker fan
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| Posted: Tue Jun 13, 2023 8:46 am Post subject: |
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| despite been swept by Denver, Lakers was Denver's toughest opponent during this playoffs. i believe Lakers lost by 24 points combined in 4 games. all 4 games were winnable at the end. |
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Halflife
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| Posted: Tue Jun 13, 2023 8:52 am Post subject: |
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| SGV-Laker fan wrote: | | swept by Denver, . |
To caveat it with we played them tough is funny. We were the only team that didn't get a game. Now we have to go through another 82 game regular season and pray our often injured top 2 guys can make it.
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defense
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| Posted: Tue Jun 13, 2023 8:53 am Post subject: |
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| SGV-Laker fan wrote: | | despite been swept by Denver, Lakers was Denver's toughest opponent during this playoffs. i believe Lakers lost by 24 points combined in 4 games. all 4 games were winnable at the end. |
This is ridiculous. They swept us! They controlled every game we played. |
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Sojo
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| Posted: Tue Jun 13, 2023 9:16 am Post subject: |
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| defense wrote: | | SGV-Laker fan wrote: | | despite been swept by Denver, Lakers was Denver's toughest opponent during this playoffs. i believe Lakers lost by 24 points combined in 4 games. all 4 games were winnable at the end. |
This is ridiculous. They swept us! They controlled every game we played. |
Typical thinking unfortunately. Suns were actually Denver's toughest competition by the most important standard: results. We keep thinking one little change here or there would've changed 4 entire games. The probabilities don't play out. You don't get swept if you're near the level of the other team, it's just not the way that works. It also diminishes how good Denver actually was. I get no one wants to feel like there was no chance or no shot going forward but better to acknowledge the work ahead if you want to beat a team as opposed to saying, basically, "let's run it back with minor change X" and expect a different result. |
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Denny_Russo
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| Posted: Tue Jun 13, 2023 9:25 am Post subject: |
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Yeah Suns were their toughest opponent. Maybe take em to 7 games with CP3 playing and Ayton not playing soft
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tox
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| Posted: Tue Jun 13, 2023 9:29 am Post subject: |
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| Denny_Russo wrote: | | lakersken80 wrote: | | Jokic winning a championship and being Finals MVP and two time regular season MVP says the big man never went away. They just didn't have the right player representing that position. |
Jokic's very atypical for a big. I can safely say there won't be another like him. Not every big has elite court vision and awareness, or sheer dominance from the perimeter. He's Chris Webber on steroids and one of the GOAT bigs, but also exploitable on defense. Who they surrounded him with sealed the championship. Hard-nosed defenders like Gordon, Brown, KCP matched the Heat's physicality and covered for his defensive woes, while Murray provided significant offensive support. Gordon at 4 was such a godsend for them. The pieces just fit.
With that being said, I think every team will be looking for the next Jokic in the following drafts, just like how they were looking for the next Curry in the last decade. It's a copycat league, but I think the game is skewing towards the multifaceted wing these days (Tatum, Ingram, Siakam, etc). |
Tatum, Ingram, Siakam are just not that good though. Tatum gets there occasionally but not consistently. I wouldn't be surprised if they collectively win zero titles. |
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Denny_Russo
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| Posted: Tue Jun 13, 2023 9:58 am Post subject: |
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| tox wrote: | | Denny_Russo wrote: | | lakersken80 wrote: | | Jokic winning a championship and being Finals MVP and two time regular season MVP says the big man never went away. They just didn't have the right player representing that position. |
Jokic's very atypical for a big. I can safely say there won't be another like him. Not every big has elite court vision and awareness, or sheer dominance from the perimeter. He's Chris Webber on steroids and one of the GOAT bigs, but also exploitable on defense. Who they surrounded him with sealed the championship. Hard-nosed defenders like Gordon, Brown, KCP matched the Heat's physicality and covered for his defensive woes, while Murray provided significant offensive support. Gordon at 4 was such a godsend for them. The pieces just fit.
With that being said, I think every team will be looking for the next Jokic in the following drafts, just like how they were looking for the next Curry in the last decade. It's a copycat league, but I think the game is skewing towards the multifaceted wing these days (Tatum, Ingram, Siakam, etc). |
Tatum, Ingram, Siakam are just not that good though. Tatum gets there occasionally but not consistently. I wouldn't be surprised if they collectively win zero titles. |
Ingram's is for real now. Look up his stats last 3 months after returning from injury. Take away his durability issues and he's a superstar. 28/7/7 on 50/40/90 splits. Carrying his sorry team to the play-in, playoffs year after year only for Zion to bail on him. Brother's just trying to survive out there with no 2nd or 3rd option to help him out.
The problem is the Pels are a trash franchise and Zion's too obsessed with screwing pornstars and onlyfan girls to take the team seriously. David Griffin is a wanker and will ride it out with Zion, but I 100% think they should trade him right now before his value tanks to 0.
Siakam is limited by his poor 3pt shoot, but I love his playmaking, rebounding and defense. However, he's closer to 30 now so who knows how much he'll improve.
I get the criticisms with Tatum but he was good enough to lead his team to the finals last year and then the ECF this season.
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tox
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| Posted: Tue Jun 13, 2023 10:34 am Post subject: |
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I don't believe in cherry picking stats from a few months. Ingram's TS% is 58% which is basically league average. 28/7/7 (even though his real stats are more like 25/6/6) on 58% TS% is very good but it's just not close to the generational impact of guys like (younger) LeBron, Jokic, (healthy) Kawhi, Giannis, Curry who've won the last 50 billion titles.
Tatum is closer and I buy the notion that he can get there, he just isn't right now. The thing is, going from a Tatum-level player to a Jokic-level player is a pretty big leap and it basically gives you more margin for error when it comes to team building. The Celtics are a deep team and they still can't win with Tatum.
On another team, Aaron Gordon's inability to shoot makes him a liability, but it was barely a factor because of Jokic providing spacing at the 5 and superhuman passing that takes advantage of the strengths Gordon does have. That's how the all time greats win titles IMO, their greatness is so overwhelming that they can make up for their teammates' shortcomings. |
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Denny_Russo
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| Posted: Tue Jun 13, 2023 11:00 am Post subject: |
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| tox wrote: | I don't believe in cherry picking stats from a few months. Ingram's TS% is 58% which is basically league average. 28/7/7 (even though his real stats are more like 25/6/6) on 58% TS% is very good but it's just not close to the generational impact of guys like (younger) LeBron, Jokic, (healthy) Kawhi, Giannis, Curry who've won the last 50 billion titles.
Tatum is closer and I buy the notion that he can get there, he just isn't right now. The thing is, going from a Tatum-level player to a Jokic-level player is a pretty big leap and it basically gives you more margin for error when it comes to team building. The Celtics are a deep team and they still can't win with Tatum.
On another team, Aaron Gordon's inability to shoot makes him a liability, but it was barely a factor because of Jokic providing spacing at the 5 and superhuman passing that takes advantage of the strengths Gordon does have. That's how the all time greats win titles IMO, their greatness is so overwhelming that they can make up for their teammates' shortcomings. |
Gordon shot 40% from the 3 in the playoffs and was the best player in game 4. Without him, they don't defend as well as they do, nor do they get far in the playoffs. I posted a video showing his impact a few pages ago. His plus minus was absurd. He covers for Jokics defensive weaknesses. With some exceptions, wings are insanely valuable today. Gordon can damn near defend all 5 positions.
The point is that all time greats need good supporting casts.Gordon, like Wiggins, was a lottery pick and it just reinforces the fact that you need to hang on to your talent. Robs entire shtick is giving up on players and trading them the moment a good offer comes up. I hope he doesn't make the same mistake with AR and Rui.
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LakersInFour
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| Posted: Tue Jun 13, 2023 11:19 am Post subject: |
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| lakersfan8 wrote: | | Everyone focus on how we need to improve our defense in order to beat Denver. But I think if we have a reliable 3rd scoring option outside LBJ and AD, we would have won the series |
Or Lebron passing to Hachimura and Reaves for three ball attempts instead of chucking bricks himself from beyond the arc.
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Lakeshow23_
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tox
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| Posted: Tue Jun 13, 2023 1:48 pm Post subject: |
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| Denny_Russo wrote: |
Gordon shot 40% from the 3 in the playoffs and was the best player in game 4. Without him, they don't defend as well as they do, nor do they get far in the playoffs. I posted a video showing his impact a few pages ago. His plus minus was absurd. He covers for Jokics defensive weaknesses. With some exceptions, wings are insanely valuable today. Gordon can damn near defend all 5 positions.
The point is that all time greats need good supporting casts.Gordon, like Wiggins, was a lottery pick and it just reinforces the fact that you need to hang on to your talent. Robs entire shtick is giving up on players and trading them the moment a good offer comes up. I hope he doesn't make the same mistake with AR and Rui. |
AG was not the best player in Game 4, he played great but so much of his effectiveness stems from mismatches created by Jokic's defense-warping gravity (Jokic reminds me a bit of prime Curry in that regard). Now, I give immense credit to AG, because a lot of non-shooters are just unable to impose their will on games by dominating switches and the like (looking at you, Vando). He did great, and he's a great defender as you noted. But, he has a lot of weaknesses offensively -- they're just covered by Jokic's greatness.
I don't really disagree too much with what you're saying in terms of roster building, but remember the Nuggets traded Gary Harris to get AG. At the end of the day, Jokic is the primary reason they won it all. |
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tox
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| Posted: Tue Jun 13, 2023 1:51 pm Post subject: |
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| Lakeshow23_ wrote: | https://twitter.com/LAbound2/status/1667566771249848321?s=20
Might be an exaggeration but they miss a few of those late shot clock heaves and the results are different.. But the Celtics lost to Cody Martin and Gabe Vincent, so I guess it happens. |
FWIW, Lakers kind of bank on this in general, and in a high variance game like basketball, you kind of set yourself up for failure since it only takes one series of bad statistical luck for this game plan to get ruined. And anyway, if Klay Thompson shoots at his season averages, do we beat the Warriors? Hard to say. |
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ducasse
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| Posted: Tue Jun 13, 2023 2:34 pm Post subject: |
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| ThePageDude wrote: | | ducasse wrote: | | AtlLaker wrote: | | They will beat us again…AD cannot guard Joker and we don’t have anyone that can guard Murray. If we run the same team back with role players. |
Need a prime Marc Gasol to offer resistance to Jokic bullying his way to the rim and make him shoot tougher contested shots. AD and Bam aren't big enough. |
Disagree with the OP. Post scoring is a minor aspect of Jokic's game, it's his playmaking that makes him who he is. Teams that focus on his scoring are destined to lose, teams that can limit his playmaking *consistently* AND then attack him on defense with quickness have a chance.
This is why I don't buy any of these "AD has to man up and defend Jokic" arguments at all, AD can't be 4 defenders on the SAME play: deny Jokic the post, close-out on a Denver shooter being assisted by Jokic, shot-block a Denver cutter being assisted by Jokic, deny Jokic a 3. |
I agree the problem isn't AD needs to man up and defend him. He can't defend him. Jokic is too big. I agree the playmaking is dangerous but if you have someone that can defend the incursions into the paint and bullying to get to the rim you don't need to double nearly as much and that takes away many of his passing opportunities. |
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ducasse
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| Posted: Tue Jun 13, 2023 2:42 pm Post subject: |
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| defense wrote: | | SGV-Laker fan wrote: | | despite been swept by Denver, Lakers was Denver's toughest opponent during this playoffs. i believe Lakers lost by 24 points combined in 4 games. all 4 games were winnable at the end. |
This is ridiculous. They swept us! They controlled every game we played. |
Lakers were probably 5 plays away in each game from winning the series. |
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