The problem with the AD trade is they could have waited a year and signed him in free agency. In terms of maximizing the length of a championship window, this was not a smart trade of assets.
Can you guarantee that AD would be healthy in the following year? And lebron? Would BI develop into the same player he is as the 3rd option? Would garland?
2008 Celtics were different, i think with Bynum we could have pushed them to a game 7, but eventually we probably lose. It sucks because it should have been KG here and another 3peat. (bleep) McHale and (bleep) Boston
It was Ariza who was missed. Paulina had his way the entire series. Game 4 was obviously the killer
Joined: 24 Dec 2007 Posts: 36162 Location: Santa Clarita, CA (Hell) ->>>>>Ithaca, NY -≥≥≥≥≥Berkeley, CA
Posted: Mon Apr 10, 2023 10:31 pm Post subject:
activeverb wrote:
BILBJH wrote:
I would say the path that puts us closest to our historical title winning trajectory is my personal goal.
I can understand that position. I question whether there really is a path that can replicate our historical winning trajectory. Look at our rings:
5 rings in the 1940s/50s.
1 ring in the 1970s.
5 rings in the 1980s.
3 rings in the 1990s.
2 rings in the 2020s.
1 ring in the 2010s.
If just go by an average, the winning "trajectory" is heavily skewed by events from 70 years ago, 40 years ago, and 30 years ago.
If you go by the last 20 years, we have averaged 1.5 rings a decade.
So the question is, what does a reasonable winning trajectory mean?
Is it fair to expect a team today to match the Geoge Mikan years? To match the Showtime years where we drafted a GOAT level player and traded for another GOAT level player?
The problem with the AD trade is they could have waited a year and signed him in free agency. In terms of maximizing the length of a championship window, this was not a smart trade of assets.
Can you guarantee that AD would be healthy in the following year? And lebron? Would BI develop into the same player he is as the 3rd option? Would garland?
Forget that. Can they guarantee AD would have even signed with us? Kawhi supposedly was Laker bound. PG was supposedly even more Laker bound and we had many, many posts here urging the Lakers not to trade the farm for him since he was for sure signing with the Lakers after his year with OKC was up. He didn’t even give us a meeting and was partying with Russ when FA started. Another team easily could have swept in and traded for AD and he could have fallen in love with the new city. Hell, maybe once Covid hit AD opts to extend just to secure more guaranteed money in the face of uncertainty. And, like you said, maybe even if AD did sign with us Solomon Hill still crashes into Lebron’s leg and we don’t win that season.
People pretending there was an obvious path to guaranteed multiple rings are being ridiculous. Lakers got their ring and were well on their way to a second one before Solomon Hill’s scrub ass intervened.
The problem with the AD trade is they could have waited a year and signed him in free agency. In terms of maximizing the length of a championship window, this was not a smart trade of assets.
Can you guarantee that AD would be healthy in the following year? And lebron? Would BI develop into the same player he is as the 3rd option? Would garland?
Forget that. Can they guarantee AD would have even signed with us? Kawhi supposedly was Laker bound. PG was supposedly even more Laker bound and we had many, many posts here urging the Lakers not to trade the farm for him since he was for sure signing with the Lakers after his year with OKC was up. He didn’t even give us a meeting and was partying with Russ when FA started. Another team easily could have swept in and traded for AD and he could have fallen in love with the new city. Hell, maybe once Covid hit AD opts to extend just to secure more guaranteed money in the face of uncertainty. And, like you said, maybe even if AD did sign with us Solomon Hill still crashes into Lebron’s leg and we don’t win that season.
People pretending there was an obvious path to guaranteed multiple rings are being ridiculous. Lakers got their ring and were well on their way to a second one before Solomon Hill’s scrub ass intervened.
Facts. _________________ On Lakersground, a concern troll is someone who is a fan of another team, but pretends to be a Lakers fan with "concerns".
The AD trade to me comes down to this. Yes we got the All NBA superstar and we won a chip. However, would it have been possible to save 1-2 assets in that trade? BI, Zo, Hart, 4th pick is already a haul, then 2 more 1st rounders and a swap. If we managed to keep the 2024 pick it would have been a great get for NO as well. The Washington trade was to make space for Kawhi, but why was the 2nd rounder included? Could some of those guys go for AD too? What about Zubac who we gifted away, or Svi? Today those names look irrelevant (bar Zu) but im sure back then they hekd atleast some value.
Listing names and comparing to AD it seems ofcourse we won. However, who says we would draft those same names? And even if so, those were assets that could have been used for other future trades (for example, if they werent wasteful with their picks and young players, maybe we land a better player in the summer of 2021 than Westbrook?)
Im still taking AD any day over those guys, but im just saying that we havent maxed out the assets we had
💯
Yeah those deferment options really messed up follow up trades that could of involved our draft assets. For instance, you brought up our 2024 1st, I feel it would have been out 2025 1st that was in the clear for a potential follow up trade after the AD trade…
Stepien: we can’t trade FRPs in consecutive years & more than 7 years out.
2019 4th overall
2021
2022 pick swap
2023
Meaning after the AD trade, we had the ability to still trade our 2025 or 2026 1sts in a follow up deal along with 3 other pick swaps. But those deferment options were a MF’n killer.
And in terms of the 4th overall pick in 2019 being not just a draft assetC but also a salary asset, that pick had Deandre Hunter sign for 7.1m for his rookie season. Had we waited a month to complete the AD trade, the 4th pick would have counted as 7.1m in aggregation rather than what it actually went for ($0). That salary could have potentially spared other contracts necessary towards salary matching. Hart (1.9m), Mo (2.1m), & Bonga (1.6m) could have been spared OR BI (7.3m) could have spared. If we included Kuz (1.9m) along with a signed & delivered Hunter, then we could have instead spared Zo (8.7m).
Anywho, a lot of possibilities, but the one we ended up going with probably was the most inefficient way to maximize our profit in the AD investment. _________________ Not familiar with the salary cap/CBA rules & how it impacts our Lakers?
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The problem with the AD trade is they could have waited a year and signed him in free agency. In terms of maximizing the length of a championship window, this was not a smart trade of assets.
Can you guarantee that AD would be healthy in the following year? And lebron? Would BI develop into the same player he is as the 3rd option? Would garland?
Forget that. Can they guarantee AD would have even signed with us? Kawhi supposedly was Laker bound. PG was supposedly even more Laker bound and we had many, many posts here urging the Lakers not to trade the farm for him since he was for sure signing with the Lakers after his year with OKC was up. He didn’t even give us a meeting and was partying with Russ when FA started. Another team easily could have swept in and traded for AD and he could have fallen in love with the new city. Hell, maybe once Covid hit AD opts to extend just to secure more guaranteed money in the face of uncertainty. And, like you said, maybe even if AD did sign with us Solomon Hill still crashes into Lebron’s leg and we don’t win that season.
People pretending there was an obvious path to guaranteed multiple rings are being ridiculous. Lakers got their ring and were well on their way to a second one before Solomon Hill’s scrub ass intervened.
It was impossible for us to win a ring that year with just 3 months rest from championship season.
We were on our way to beat the Suns until AD went down.
And that injury looks more like fatigue.
And that season every team that gone deep into the playoff were all crippled.
The NBA schedule screwed us. We should have punted the season instead of overreact the following season and trade for Westbrick.
The AD trade to me comes down to this. Yes we got the All NBA superstar and we won a chip. However, would it have been possible to save 1-2 assets in that trade? BI, Zo, Hart, 4th pick is already a haul, then 2 more 1st rounders and a swap. If we managed to keep the 2024 pick it would have been a great get for NO as well. The Washington trade was to make space for Kawhi, but why was the 2nd rounder included? Could some of those guys go for AD too? What about Zubac who we gifted away, or Svi? Today those names look irrelevant (bar Zu) but im sure back then they hekd atleast some value.
Listing names and comparing to AD it seems ofcourse we won. However, who says we would draft those same names? And even if so, those were assets that could have been used for other future trades (for example, if they werent wasteful with their picks and young players, maybe we land a better player in the summer of 2021 than Westbrook?)
Im still taking AD any day over those guys, but im just saying that we havent maxed out the assets we had
💯
Yeah those deferment options really messed up follow up trades that could of involved our draft assets. For instance, you brought up our 2024 1st, I feel it would have been out 2025 1st that was in the clear for a potential follow up trade after the AD trade…
Stepien: we can’t trade FRPs in consecutive years & more than 7 years out.
2019 4th overall
2021
2022 pick swap
2023
Meaning after the AD trade, we had the ability to still trade our 2025 or 2026 1sts in a follow up deal along with 3 other pick swaps. But those deferment options were a MF’n killer.
And in terms of the 4th overall pick in 2019 being not just a draft assetC but also a salary asset, that pick had Deandre Hunter sign for 7.1m for his rookie season. Had we waited a month to complete the AD trade, the 4th pick would have counted as 7.1m in aggregation rather than what it actually went for ($0). That salary could have potentially spared other contracts necessary towards salary matching. Hart (1.9m), Mo (2.1m), & Bonga (1.6m) could have been spared OR BI (7.3m) could have spared. If we included Kuz (1.9m) along with a signed & delivered Hunter, then we could have instead spared Zo (8.7m).
Anywho, a lot of possibilities, but the one we ended up going with probably was the most inefficient way to maximize our profit in the AD investment.
You think NOLA would've done the deal without 'Zo or BI? You cannot be serious - you just don't want to concede the point. _________________ On Lakersground, a concern troll is someone who is a fan of another team, but pretends to be a Lakers fan with "concerns".
What was given up for an expiring Kawhi before the AD trade negotiations first popped off? What was given up for Butler by capped out Miami that same summer? What was given up for KD by BK, also that summer? Meanwhile we gave up damn near everything for an expiring AD?
Either have all the kids and 1 FRP + 1 swap
or have all the picks with none of our young’ns attached by having AD’s 27m (remember kicker was waived) completed absorbed into space.
We gave them both…after AD essentially gave us all the leverage.
Now I know you can’t win a ring every year, but I rather have them in position to possibly bling up for multiple successive seasons rather than a won&done.
Some folks acting like we were a Finals game 7 injury away from repeating….uh, it was the 1st round after a play-in. Looking back at when we first paired up our Klutch Allstars, it’s a travesty they have only had one deep postseason run to their name…after a 4 month irregular regular season pause no less. _________________ Not familiar with the salary cap/CBA rules & how it impacts our Lakers?
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AD has been continuously abused in the press and on message boards and social media since the bubble title and he's still shown an unwavering desire to play for the Lakers.
He could go anywhere else and he wouldn't receive the scrutiny that gave him the street clothes name.
He still has a strong bond with Bron and Klutch through all of this crap.
Yet some of you think Klutch couldn't convince AD to come here the following year for free.
AD came here because LBJ wanted him as fast as he could get him.
Had LBJ asked him to wait a year, I feel almost certain he'd have been willing to do so.
Do you really think he was going to the Celtics when his dad didn't want him there?
Everything went right for us in our Championship year, it was like we were destined to win it all. The bubble, the emergence of playoff Rondo, injuries stayed away, the Clippers choked and so did the Bucks, the Warriors were nowehere, KD was injured
If we had waited a year we may not have won a championship. It seems to have worked out satisfactorily in the end
AD has been continuously abused in the press and on message boards and social media since the bubble title and he's still shown an unwavering desire to play for the Lakers.
He could go anywhere else and he wouldn't receive the scrutiny that gave him the street clothes name.
He still has a strong bond with Bron and Klutch through all of this crap.
Yet some of you think Klutch couldn't convince AD to come here the following year for free.
AD came here because LBJ wanted him as fast as he could get him.
Had LBJ asked him to wait a year, I feel almost certain he'd have been willing to do so.
Do you really think he was going to the Celtics when his dad didn't want him there?
He was always going to be a Laker and LBJ made us waste assets for no reason.
Can you guarantee he would be healthy and injury free? Because I can guarantee he was injury free and dominant in 2020 after we traded for him.
Your theory is based on alternative universe which involves no guaranteed ring.
This is like discussing if you spent too much money to buy the tickets after you won the lotto.
Some folks acting like we were a Finals game 7 injury away from repeating….uh, it was the 1st round after a play-in. Looking back at when we first paired up our Klutch Allstars, it’s a travesty they have only had one deep postseason run to their name…after a 4 month irregular regular season pause no less.
This is why I say that the title in the bubble was the minimum acceptable result. If we didn't win that title, the whole thing would look like a fiasco. But we did win it.
Dr. Laker is right, though. The Pelicans were not going to do the deal without both Ball and Ingram. I get your point about Davis' dad, but we lost all of our leverage when Magic offered everything we had, plus the kitchen sink and a couple Laker Girls, at the trade deadline. _________________ Internet Argument Resolved
It's telling that the vast majority of the people who support the trade use simplistic logic that because we won, it was a good trade.
Especially the ones who have been using this one sentence rationale for five years now.
No supporting arguments, no attempt to use logic.
I at least respect those who give good supporting arguments to why they like the trade.
As for the others, it's like if they purchased 5000 lotto tickets and won the lottery that they'd argue with you that you made a sound financial decision.
You didn't make a sound financial decision... you got f*cking lucky.
Am I happy that we won? Absolutely
Am I happy with the trade? I think AD is a great player and better than Ingram but I'd rather have Ingram, Garland and see what we would have done with all those assets.
So, you trade 1 guaranteed chip for several "maybe" chips? All right then. Agree to disagree.
Your counter argument is that because I'm a lotto winner, I'm a fool to invest my money in a mutual fund because maybe I don't get rich.
The mutual fund is always better than buying those lottery tickets... even with the current economic environment.
You're just using extremes at this point.
So AD was a "lottery" ticket now? Yet the FUTURE HOF like Ingram, Ball, future 1st rd picks are better than the "lottery"?
Your argument is getting weaker.
No, I'm saying people using the logic of winning justifies everything is flawed.
I never said AD is a lotto ticket... I said you can't simplistically use that argument that because you won you made the right decision.
If someone actually bothers to explain their rationale as some have done then that is an acceptable argument. I may not agree with it, but I can understand the points of the argument.
I'm skewering the simplicity of the logic, not saying AD is a lotto ticket.
Even without explicitly stating it, the argument is that the championship was the result of a calculated risk so yes your analogy remains flawed. Pretty much nobody is saying we lucked into it except you. And nobody is claiming that someone else is claiming it except you. _________________ Luxury Tax/FA Spreadsheet (Save to your Google Drive to edit)
The AD trade to me comes down to this. Yes we got the All NBA superstar and we won a chip. However, would it have been possible to save 1-2 assets in that trade? BI, Zo, Hart, 4th pick is already a haul, then 2 more 1st rounders and a swap. If we managed to keep the 2024 pick it would have been a great get for NO as well. The Washington trade was to make space for Kawhi, but why was the 2nd rounder included? Could some of those guys go for AD too? What about Zubac who we gifted away, or Svi? Today those names look irrelevant (bar Zu) but im sure back then they hekd atleast some value.
Listing names and comparing to AD it seems ofcourse we won. However, who says we would draft those same names? And even if so, those were assets that could have been used for other future trades (for example, if they werent wasteful with their picks and young players, maybe we land a better player in the summer of 2021 than Westbrook?)
Im still taking AD any day over those guys, but im just saying that we havent maxed out the assets we had
It's also easy to look at the trade from only your value perspective without considering the market. I broke it down earlier on page 2. When you compare AD with other star trades you can even argue we came out ahead. V pointed out that AD had only a year left out on his deal but I would counterargue that when considering age and standing in the league, AD's trade value at the time was higher than even KD, Harden, and anyone else at the time they were dealt. _________________ Luxury Tax/FA Spreadsheet (Save to your Google Drive to edit)
The AD trade to me comes down to this. Yes we got the All NBA superstar and we won a chip. However, would it have been possible to save 1-2 assets in that trade? BI, Zo, Hart, 4th pick is already a haul, then 2 more 1st rounders and a swap. If we managed to keep the 2024 pick it would have been a great get for NO as well. The Washington trade was to make space for Kawhi, but why was the 2nd rounder included? Could some of those guys go for AD too? What about Zubac who we gifted away, or Svi? Today those names look irrelevant (bar Zu) but im sure back then they hekd atleast some value.
Listing names and comparing to AD it seems ofcourse we won. However, who says we would draft those same names? And even if so, those were assets that could have been used for other future trades (for example, if they werent wasteful with their picks and young players, maybe we land a better player in the summer of 2021 than Westbrook?)
Im still taking AD any day over those guys, but im just saying that we havent maxed out the assets we had
It's also easy to look at the trade from only your value perspective without considering the market. I broke it down earlier on page 2. When you compare AD with other star trades you can even argue we came out ahead. V pointed out that AD had only a year left out on his deal but I would counterargue that when considering age and standing in the league, AD's trade value at the time was higher than even KD, Harden, and anyone else at the time they were dealt.
Yes, 26 year old All-NBA players rarely hit the market. _________________ On Lakersground, a concern troll is someone who is a fan of another team, but pretends to be a Lakers fan with "concerns".
@G: great researched post and it’s hard to refute your take, since I’m not willing to do the same right now 😜
I will state tho that most of the examples you presented had it where the star players were either on locked up deals or were immediately extended upon trade. What did Masai give up for Kawhi? What did Nico give up for an expiring Ky? Now we all know AD intended to be a Laker, so he essentially gave a lot of the leverage to us in trade negotiations, yet we purged most of our young talent (among them two #2 overall picks) and gave up nearly all our draft assets possible (among them the given #4 overall pick). We then could have offered AD an extension, but had him waive his trade kicker, so there went that scenario, which made him a pending flight risk.
Those other examples you gave were for established contracts and having mostly established pieces around their core before making those moves. We literally had just Bron and Kuz on contract after trading for an expiring AD.
C'mon V, you can't seriously invoke Ky's trade value in this discussion. I'll give you Kawahi but he still gave up an established perennial All-Star and as you noted, he was a significantly greater flight risk who never listed Toronto as a preferred destination.
I get that they were barebones after the trade but they were still able to build a very deep roster that won even without a starting guard (Bradley) available in the bubble. How they bungled that afterwards is a separate issue.
Both BI and Lonzo were coming off major injuries IIRC and I have to agree they were necessary sacrifices. I wasn't happy when they included Hart but he would have been largely redundant and relegated with the other pieces we had and as I noted, doesn't really stand out compared to other rotational pieces included in superstar deals.
The terms of the picks could have been better but I think the volume of the haul was comparable even when you consider the #4 ended up being worth two FRPs.
So could the terms have been better? Probably, but when you put it in the context of similar trades I wouldn't call it a fail. _________________ Luxury Tax/FA Spreadsheet (Save to your Google Drive to edit)
Last edited by gng930 on Tue Apr 11, 2023 8:22 am; edited 1 time in total
@G: great researched post and it’s hard to refute your take, since I’m not willing to do the same right now 😜
I will state tho that most of the examples you presented had it where the star players were either on locked up deals or were immediately extended upon trade. What did Masai give up for Kawhi? What did Nico give up for an expiring Ky? Now we all know AD intended to be a Laker, so he essentially gave a lot of the leverage to us in trade negotiations, yet we purged most of our young talent (among them two #2 overall picks) and gave up nearly all our draft assets possible (among them the given #4 overall pick). We then could have offered AD an extension, but had him waive his trade kicker, so there went that scenario, which made him a pending flight risk.
Those other examples you gave were for established contracts and having mostly established pieces around their core before making those moves. We literally had just Bron and Kuz on contract after trading for an expiring AD.
C'mon V, you can't seriously invoke Ky's trade value in this discussion. I'll give you Kawahi but he still gave up an established perennial All-Star and as you noted, he was a significantly greater flight risk who never listed Toronto as a preferred destination.
I get that they were barebones after the trade but they were still able to build a very deep roster that won even without a starting guard (Bradley) available in the bubble. How they bungled that afterwards is a separate issue.
Both BI and Lonzo were coming off major injuries IIRC and I have to agree they were necessary sacrifices. I wasn't happy when they included Hart but he would have been largely redundant with the other pieces we had and as I noted, doesn't really stand out compared to other rotational pieces included in superstar deals.
The terms of the picks could have been better but I think the volume of the haul was comparable even when you consider the #4 ended up being worth two FRPs.
So could the terms have been better? Probably, But when you put it in the context of similar trade, I wouldn't call it a fail.
Kawhi trade was spite - Lakers were prepared to offer the farm for him, but Pop refused to engage. Had the Spurs taken a BI centered deal, they'd be a playoff team now. _________________ On Lakersground, a concern troll is someone who is a fan of another team, but pretends to be a Lakers fan with "concerns".
Not to mention Julius Randle walked and signed for less to play for them. He was not a part of the Anthony Davis trade, but that goes to the topic of how New Orleans mismanaged talent. Julius Randle and Josh Hart have New York in the playoffs.
Last edited by JUST-MING on Tue Apr 11, 2023 8:28 am; edited 1 time in total
Some folks acting like we were a Finals game 7 injury away from repeating….uh, it was the 1st round after a play-in. Looking back at when we first paired up our Klutch Allstars, it’s a travesty they have only had one deep postseason run to their name…after a 4 month irregular regular season pause no less.
This is why I say that the title in the bubble was the minimum acceptable result. If we didn't win that title, the whole thing would look like a fiasco. But we did win it.
Dr. Laker is right, though. The Pelicans were not going to do the deal without both Ball and Ingram. I get your point about Davis' dad, but we lost all of our leverage when Magic offered everything we had, plus the kitchen sink and a couple Laker Girls, at the trade deadline.
they couldn't even match salary without Lonzo and BI.
@G: when I consider a big picture trade, you have to consider how you set yourself up once it’s achieved. Again, it’s been pretty obvious that we were angling for a 3 star setup when we targeted Bron. We witnessed what he did with it in Miami and then later in Cleaveland2.0. The 3star alignment has been our endgame since the jump.
In that regard, you need to set yourself up once you land AD. We believed that cap space was the answer in setting up. But before getting any type of commitment with that space, we prematurely shot our load for AD. As a result, we scrambled to put pieces around Bron/AD with our cap space. And what did that lead to: Bron playing fulltime point gawd at 35y/o in his 17th year during the regular season. Although he has been a point forward for years, this is something he hasn’t done since his rookie year since our roster had next to no perimeter playmaking other than him. This is why it made headlines…
And although Playoff Rondo was here, we experienced it before with him…he kinda goes thru the motions in the regular season (and often gets injured as well) and then turns up in the playoffs…hence the moniker. So yeah, that’s a huge burden we put on the dude, just a few months removed from a groin injury no less.
You might have really believed in that championship roster, but the manufacturer of that lineup sure didn’t. At the first instant, Rob tore it down. Maybe he knew that in spite of having the model ring it up that year, he couldn’t have Bron run thru the ringer again. It was not sustainable.
Anyways, even during the summer of when we traded for AD, you had capped out Miami trade for a FA Butler. You had a FA KD also leverage his way to BK via trade. As it’s been pointed out before, AD handed us nearly all the leverage. And yet we purged nearly all our assets to go get him, thinking we had a follow up move in our back pocket that would put the league in blast…instead, all went kawhiet!
@AH: unlike the offseason, we needed salary in season to trade for AD. So in that regard, we had no choice but to include a majority of the kids to salary match for dude. Still, our supposed rumored last offer only had us dealing away 2FRPs and at that point we didn’t know that our 2019 pick was going to be top4. In fact, we can speculate that had the trade gone down during the 2018/19 season, that 2019 1st we might have given up would be a much lower pick in tgat we might have made the playoffs that year.
Anyways the point is, AD was a pending expiring deal and a potential flight risk as a FA when we traded for him. Other than the leverage he/Klutch handed us, we coujd have used that factor in negotiations with Griff in that we can’t trade the house (most all our young assets) & the kitchen sink (nearly all our draft capital) if dude could be a flight risk like Dwight was in years’ past. You either get most of the kids or most of our draft capital, but not both. And if we couldn’t kick in a commit from a 3rd with our cap space, then trade the draft capital, absorb AD into our space and keep the kids to flip for another day….and if they really want the kids too, then you have to give us Jrue too #AssetManagement101 _________________ Not familiar with the salary cap/CBA rules & how it impacts our Lakers?
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