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BILBJH
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Joined: 23 Jul 2020
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 Posted: Mon May 29, 2023 12:15 pm Post subject: |
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| Dr. Laker wrote: | | BILBJH wrote: | | Dr. Laker wrote: | | danzag wrote: | | The "we could get AD for free next year" crowd knows absolutely nothing about basketball. Or business in general |
The number of posters here who have no understanding of business is staggering. Particularly those who clearly have never negotiated a deal. |
I ran two businesses on prime real estate in West Los Angeles for over 25 years.
I've made mistakes in my life, but I've won more than I lost.
I'm guessing most here haven't run any businesses themselves.
We put ourselves in a terrible position to acquire AD.
I've never said going for AD wasn't a good idea, it's how we went about it that was ridiculous. |
Then you know how rare it is for an elite asset to come on the market, and the opportunity cost of not closing on that asset is that it may not come back on the market for decades, and the market may go from ridiculous to insane.
How many players since the 1999 CBA have asked for a trade, and then later signed with the team that didn't trade for them? |
I felt we had an inside hookup with AD and LBJ just didn't want to wait.
I'm curious to see what Friedman does with Ohtani.
Maybe he trades for him... but I'm guessing he gets him for nothing unless the Mets offer him 750 or something crazy.
Everyone points out the Paul George situation as a cautionary tale, but in my opinion we f*cked over Paul by dumping him for Bron originally.
If we wanted him, we could have gotten him first.
I think the only time we lost our targets was that dark period where Melo and Aldridge didn't want to come, but I think a lot of people were intimidated by Kobe.
Historically we've gotten most of the players we wanted. I'd bet on us |
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activeverb
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Joined: 17 Jun 2006
Posts: 37470
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| Posted: Mon May 29, 2023 12:41 pm Post subject: |
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| BILBJH wrote: | | Dr. Laker wrote: | | danzag wrote: | | The "we could get AD for free next year" crowd knows absolutely nothing about basketball. Or business in general |
The number of posters here who have no understanding of business is staggering. Particularly those who clearly have never negotiated a deal. |
I ran two businesses on prime real estate in West Los Angeles for over 25 years.
I've made mistakes in my life, but I've won more than I lost.
I'm guessing most here haven't run any businesses themselves.
We put ourselves in a terrible position to acquire AD.
I've never said going for AD wasn't a good idea, it's how we went about it that was ridiculous. |
I think there are multiple things at play here.
1. I don't think anyone disagrees that we put ourselves in a terrible negotiating position. That started a year before we made the actual deal, when Magic was still around.
2. When the negotiations again began right before we actually made the deal, we were already entrenched in a bad negotiating position. By then, I think the Pelicans and everyone else knew that the Lakers wouldn't just walk away. Rob was under tremendous pressure to get the deal done, and he was going to get it done no matter what it cost.
3. If we had managed things better starting a year before, we might have gotten Davis for a better price. I'm not sure that it would be dramatically better. But maybe we would have been able to keep one of the draft picks we sent them. |
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BILBJH
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Joined: 23 Jul 2020
Posts: 5146
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| Posted: Mon May 29, 2023 12:54 pm Post subject: |
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| activeverb wrote: | | BILBJH wrote: | | Dr. Laker wrote: | | danzag wrote: | | The "we could get AD for free next year" crowd knows absolutely nothing about basketball. Or business in general |
The number of posters here who have no understanding of business is staggering. Particularly those who clearly have never negotiated a deal. |
I ran two businesses on prime real estate in West Los Angeles for over 25 years.
I've made mistakes in my life, but I've won more than I lost.
I'm guessing most here haven't run any businesses themselves.
We put ourselves in a terrible position to acquire AD.
I've never said going for AD wasn't a good idea, it's how we went about it that was ridiculous. |
I think there are multiple things at play here.
1. I don't think anyone disagrees that we put ourselves in a terrible negotiating position. That started a year before we made the actual deal, when Magic was still around.
2. When the negotiations again began right before we actually made the deal, we were already entrenched in a bad negotiating position. By then, I think the Pelicans and everyone else knew that the Lakers wouldn't just walk away. Rob was under tremendous pressure to get the deal done, and he was going to get it done no matter what it cost.
3. If we had managed things better starting a year before, we might have gotten Davis for a better price. I'm not sure that it would be dramatically better. But maybe we would have been able to keep one of the draft picks we sent them. |
I don't really argue with people who say, well we made a bad or suboptimal deal but I'm happy about the title and don't care that we made a bad deal.
I mostly take issue with those who say, I'm glad we did it and I'd do it again.
Why? Because it's this stupid mentality that might lead us into trading someone like Reaves for Kyrie.
We all agree Kyrie is better than Reaves but thankfully, this time because of Kyrie's off court issues not many want him this time.
If people say hey we overpaid, let's not do that again, I don't have much quarrel with them.
Those that double down and say I do it every time because we won a title are the ones I disagree with.
You can have a good outcome with a bad trade and the trade itself can still be intrinsically bad.
Some still can't grasp this fact. |
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WorthyNum1
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| Posted: Tue May 30, 2023 9:27 am Post subject: |
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| JustaObserver wrote: |
Too Lazy to Click the Link? Dont worry i got ya
Magic Johnson:
“ | Quote: | I’m not a regretful guy. You’re right, I offered a lot of guys, but you have to do that for an Anthony Davis," Johnson said on Monday's episode of First Take. "He’s a special player and the guys that we were going to trade to the Pelicans are special as well. And I told Dell Demps: ‘Let’s just do it in private. What we offer, let’s keep it between us.’ Well Dell didn’t do that, so that’s how it got out, right.
The Lakers offered their full boat of young prospects—Brandon Ingram, Kyle Kuzma, Lonzo Ball, Josh Hart—along with draft picks to acquire Davis before February's deadline. The Pelicans declined, and details of the Lakers' offer were detailed to the press.
Johnson said the young players took the negotiations to heart, though he complimented the way they rebounded |
"
BUT WAIT! THERES MORE...!
| Quote: | | The Lakers negotiations with the Pelicans becoming public were partially responsible for sinking their season. They were already scrapping to make the playoffs when the negotiations leaked and fell apart down the stretch, with nearly every contributor suffering an injury or being shut down. |
You still havent answered my question...NONE OF THEM.. You havent prob answered the previous Guy's Questions.
Ive gave you my response...take it how you live it. IM OUT |
Ummm... that's funny.
Magic wasn't the VP anymore. What Lakers players did he offer in June 2019? What authority did he have? You mean a person outside of the Lakers organization negotiated the AD deal for the Lakers?
Or are you confused the failed Feb 2019 deal as the June 2019 deal?
See, you can keep using that misinformation to argue. I'll keep retorting your lie.
You haven't answered why the other teams have to bid against the Lakers at the same time either. Which rule says that it's an auction that all teams have to bid at the same time?
Failing to answer that. Your quest for the other team's package is just that, another attempt to mislead... |
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WorthyNum1
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| Posted: Tue May 30, 2023 9:51 am Post subject: |
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| BILBJH wrote: | I just posted an article that confirmed what this guy said and you are calling him a liar?
I don't who you are, or what account you come from, but why are you so hostile, and why can't you have a civilized debate?
The other thing working against the Lakers was the offer Johnson made back at the trade deadline. In offering basically everything not bolted down, he set a precedent New Orleans was always going to try to live up to.
We paid too much in my opinion.
Many of you feel we were better off taking the bird in the hand no matter how much it cost. A minority like myself wanted to preserve either Ingram or #4 or just tell the Pels to f*ck off and take my chances the following year.
I know for a fact that I argued we'd be good for one or two years but then no longer competitive when James was too old.
I know I said specifically that I wanted Ingram not to play with Bron, but to eventually replace him because he wasn't a good fit.
80% of this board at that time laughed and just thought he wasn't good enough. Half thought Kuzma was better. I'd hear things like Ingram never scored 30 points in college, he'll be a borderline starter.
But I had watched the kid every f*cking game get better and I thought he'd be a good player once he becomes consistent.
However, I was wrong about LBJ's window... he was good for four years instead of two.
So the overpay came back to roost in 2023 instead of 2021.
First of all, I agree with the point that no one knows what what would have happened. There are infinite parallel universes that can be played out.
However, had we kept a few more assets or picks by playing hard ball with Griffin or waited for AD, it might have gotten us over the top this season.
People say so what, we won a title.
If you win a poker hand holding a 10 and a Jack, because the dealer puts a queen, king, ace in the river... does that mean holding a 10 and a Jack is better than holding two aces?
Apparently by the logic of some on this board, you always take the 10 and the jack because you won one time.
We won, I'm happy about 17.
I just felt we could have had an even better hand. |
I called that a liar because Magic negotiated the deal in Feb 2019, which didn't go thru'.
The deal that went thru' was negotiated in June 2019, when Magic was long gone. What did the actual deal have to do with Magic?
You may not like the deal, it's your opinion. However, I found contradictions in the justifications of your opinion. That's why I won't let you off the hook.
Your claim that the AD deal depleted our depth, which is refuted by your own words. Your later admission that we rebuilt our depth in 2023 (indirectly with what we've left after the AD trade) proved that our depth (after the AD trade) was still good enough to (1) win the championship (2) maintain at the same level, more or less, to make a deep playoff run.
You admitted that there's no guarantee to sign AD as a FA. That means had we not traded for AD, we might not have got him afterall. There goes your support of "should not trade the farm for AD".
Your own arguments contradict themselves, not to mention you use a lot of speculations to support your argument.
Had the Lakers gone according to your plan, we might have gone all the way in 2023, we might not. It's just your speculation.
Your problem is that you think the AD trade is the ONLY cause of the downfall in 2020/21 and 2021/22. You totally ignore other happenings in the franchise simply to justify your theory.
The Lakers' actual path landed a chip in 2020, no speculation needed. Had they not traded the farm for westbrick, I can also speculate that the Lakers could have gone all the way in 2022 and 2023. My speculation is much stronger than yours. |
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BILBJH
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Joined: 23 Jul 2020
Posts: 5146
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| Posted: Tue May 30, 2023 10:10 am Post subject: |
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| WorthyNum1 wrote: | | BILBJH wrote: |
I just think it would have been better to go with the original plan which was to sign the second elite outright like Butler for example... or wait for AD the following year.
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This "second elite" Butler is on the way to blow a historical lead, 3-0 to 3-3 by shooting 5-21 in game 6.
He's also the guy who bricked a 3-pointer in the last seconds of game 7 of the ECF last year, when a 2-pointer could have tied the game and sent the game to OT.
Thanks, I would rather take AD instead. |
Butler for free? Or AD for BI, Lonzo, Josh Hart, Garland, two first rounders, and a pick swap...
Essentially if you wait a year you have either
AD
BI
Lonzo
Josh Hart
Darius Garland
Two more first rounders
No pick swap.
OR if you signed Jimmy outright
Jimmy Butler
BI
Lonzo
Josh Hart
Darius Garland
Two more first rounders
No pick swap
OR
You just have AD and have to hope you sign players like Rondo and Dwight for the minimum and have a rotation player come out of nowhere like Caruso for the minimum
You don't want that risk... I did.
Again, I'm happy we won the title but you my friend continue to be high as a kite.
Just because you win a title, doesn't mean you made the best moves to get you there.
It just means you won the title.
One day some of you will understand this. |
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WorthyNum1
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Joined: 25 Sep 2012
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| Posted: Tue May 30, 2023 10:27 am Post subject: |
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| BILBJH wrote: | | WorthyNum1 wrote: | | BILBJH wrote: |
I just think it would have been better to go with the original plan which was to sign the second elite outright like Butler for example... or wait for AD the following year.
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This "second elite" Butler is on the way to blow a historical lead, 3-0 to 3-3 by shooting 5-21 in game 6.
He's also the guy who bricked a 3-pointer in the last seconds of game 7 of the ECF last year, when a 2-pointer could have tied the game and sent the game to OT.
Thanks, I would rather take AD instead. |
Butler for free? Or AD for BI, Lonzo, Josh Hart, Garland, two first rounders, and a pick swap...
Essentially if you wait a year you have either
AD
BI
Lonzo
Josh Hart
Darius Garland
Two more first rounders
No pick swap.
OR if you signed Jimmy outright
Jimmy Butler
BI
Lonzo
Josh Hart
Darius Garland
Two more first rounders
No pick swap
OR
You just have AD and have to hope you sign players like Rondo and Dwight for the minimum and have a rotation player come out of nowhere like Caruso for the minimum
You don't want that risk... I did.
Again, I'm happy we won the title but you my friend continue to be high as a kite.
Just because you win a title, doesn't mean you made the best moves to get you there.
It just means you won the title.
One day some of you will understand this. |
Well, are you the mastermind in the NBA that controls all player moves behind the scene?
Basically if we wait a year we may have this roster in 2020-21:
Bron, BI, 'Zo, Hart, Kuz, Hunter, and the picks in later years, because AD got traded to another team and stayed there.
or if we can't sign Butler outright because he liked Miami and the Heat Culture, we may end up with:
Bron, BI, 'Zo, Hart, Kuz, Hunter, and the picks in later years.
Of course, in the Lakers' recent past of desperate signing of FA, we might have signed 'Trez, Melo, Jordan Clarkson in the 2020 off-season...
Well, you may see a championship in the picture, I don't.
See how easy your best case scenario can be switched to a mediocre scenario? Again, if you can speculate, so can I... |
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BILBJH
Star Player
Joined: 23 Jul 2020
Posts: 5146
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| Posted: Tue May 30, 2023 10:48 am Post subject: |
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| WorthyNum1 wrote: | | BILBJH wrote: | | WorthyNum1 wrote: | | BILBJH wrote: |
I just think it would have been better to go with the original plan which was to sign the second elite outright like Butler for example... or wait for AD the following year.
|
This "second elite" Butler is on the way to blow a historical lead, 3-0 to 3-3 by shooting 5-21 in game 6.
He's also the guy who bricked a 3-pointer in the last seconds of game 7 of the ECF last year, when a 2-pointer could have tied the game and sent the game to OT.
Thanks, I would rather take AD instead. |
Butler for free? Or AD for BI, Lonzo, Josh Hart, Garland, two first rounders, and a pick swap...
Essentially if you wait a year you have either
AD
BI
Lonzo
Josh Hart
Darius Garland
Two more first rounders
No pick swap.
OR if you signed Jimmy outright
Jimmy Butler
BI
Lonzo
Josh Hart
Darius Garland
Two more first rounders
No pick swap
OR
You just have AD and have to hope you sign players like Rondo and Dwight for the minimum and have a rotation player come out of nowhere like Caruso for the minimum
You don't want that risk... I did.
Again, I'm happy we won the title but you my friend continue to be high as a kite.
Just because you win a title, doesn't mean you made the best moves to get you there.
It just means you won the title.
One day some of you will understand this. |
Well, are you the mastermind in the NBA that controls all player moves behind the scene?
Basically if we wait a year we may have this roster in 2020-21:
Bron, BI, 'Zo, Hart, Kuz, Hunter, and the picks in later years, because AD got traded to another team and stayed there.
or if we can't sign Butler outright because he liked Miami and the Heat Culture, we may end up with:
Bron, BI, 'Zo, Hart, Kuz, Hunter, and the picks in later years.
Of course, in the Lakers' recent past of desperate signing of FA, we might have signed 'Trez, Melo, Jordan Clarkson in the 2020 off-season...
Well, you may see a championship in the picture, I don't.
See how easy your best case scenario can be switched to a mediocre scenario? Again, if you can speculate, so can I... |
You believe Lakers would have lost the battle for AD had they waited, I don't.
I think Bron wanted him right away and that's what happened.
Had he been patient, they would have been set up well for years to come.
We have made a good recovery, but it took a lot of unnecessary suffering to get back again. |
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activeverb
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Posts: 37470
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| Posted: Tue May 30, 2023 11:15 am Post subject: |
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| BILBJH wrote: |
Why? Because it's this stupid mentality that might lead us into trading someone like Reaves for Kyrie.
We all agree Kyrie is better than Reaves but thankfully, this time because of Kyrie's off court issues not many want him this time. |
I don't look at it this way at all myself.
We did the AD trade 4 years. You can like it. You can dislike it. Whatever. But it's done.
I don't see how the AD trade is going to affect any future trades.
I don't want Irving because I don't like Irving. I'd be open to dating Reaves for the right deal. But none of my opinions regarding Irving, Reaves or future deals are in any way influenced by or related to the AD deal anymore than they are influenced or related to the Gasol deal. I look at each deal based on the situation at the time.
So the notion of arguing against the AD deal as a warning to future generations about future deals just strikes me as ... odd. |
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BILBJH
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Joined: 23 Jul 2020
Posts: 5146
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| Posted: Tue May 30, 2023 11:17 am Post subject: |
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| activeverb wrote: | | BILBJH wrote: |
Why? Because it's this stupid mentality that might lead us into trading someone like Reaves for Kyrie.
We all agree Kyrie is better than Reaves but thankfully, this time because of Kyrie's off court issues not many want him this time. |
I don't look at it this way at all myself.
We did the AD trade 4 years. You can like it. You can dislike it. Whatever. But it's done.
I don't see how the AD trade is going to affect any future trades.
I don't want Irving because I don't like Irving. I'd be open to dating Reaves for the right deal. But none of my opinions regarding Irving, Reaves or future deals are in any way influenced by or related to the AD deal anymore than they are influenced or related to the Gasol deal. I look at each deal based on the situation at the time.
So the notion of arguing against the AD as a warning to future generations about future deals just strikes me as ... odd. |
I wonder what Freud would say about this. |
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activeverb
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Posts: 37470
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| Posted: Tue May 30, 2023 11:27 am Post subject: |
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| BILBJH wrote: | | activeverb wrote: | | BILBJH wrote: |
Why? Because it's this stupid mentality that might lead us into trading someone like Reaves for Kyrie.
We all agree Kyrie is better than Reaves but thankfully, this time because of Kyrie's off court issues not many want him this time. |
I don't look at it this way at all myself.
We did the AD trade 4 years. You can like it. You can dislike it. Whatever. But it's done.
I don't see how the AD trade is going to affect any future trades.
I don't want Irving because I don't like Irving. I'd be open to dating Reaves for the right deal. But none of my opinions regarding Irving, Reaves or future deals are in any way influenced by or related to the AD deal anymore than they are influenced or related to the Gasol deal. I look at each deal based on the situation at the time.
So the notion of arguing against the AD as a warning to future generations about future deals just strikes me as ... odd. |
I wonder what Freud would say about this. |
Oh, I do typos like that all the time. Anyway, if that's the only comment you have about my response, I'd say we are done on that topic and we're probably done a while ago. Cheers. |
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BILBJH
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Joined: 23 Jul 2020
Posts: 5146
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| Posted: Tue May 30, 2023 11:33 am Post subject: |
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| activeverb wrote: | | BILBJH wrote: | | activeverb wrote: | | BILBJH wrote: |
Why? Because it's this stupid mentality that might lead us into trading someone like Reaves for Kyrie.
We all agree Kyrie is better than Reaves but thankfully, this time because of Kyrie's off court issues not many want him this time. |
I don't look at it this way at all myself.
We did the AD trade 4 years. You can like it. You can dislike it. Whatever. But it's done.
I don't see how the AD trade is going to affect any future trades.
I don't want Irving because I don't like Irving. I'd be open to dating Reaves for the right deal. But none of my opinions regarding Irving, Reaves or future deals are in any way influenced by or related to the AD deal anymore than they are influenced or related to the Gasol deal. I look at each deal based on the situation at the time.
So the notion of arguing against the AD as a warning to future generations about future deals just strikes me as ... odd. |
I wonder what Freud would say about this. |
Oh, I do typos like that all the time. Anyway, if that's the only comment you have about my response, I'd say we are done on that topic and we're probably done a while ago. Cheers. |
If I had a nickel for every time you said you are done only to come back like Bill Murray in Groundhog Day.
It was a funny typo... laugh and relax.
The AD trade is done... however, there were signs Bron was still pouting for another star.
He's like the hottest woman in her prime who is still pretty hot, but can't get men to do what she could twenty years ago and doesn't realize that her powers have declined a little.
I just don't want him to screw up what we have. Again.
At 39... I think his Rob bullying days may be over.
At least I hope so. |
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WorthyNum1
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Joined: 25 Sep 2012
Posts: 170
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| Posted: Wed May 31, 2023 2:51 am Post subject: |
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| BILBJH wrote: |
You believe Lakers would have lost the battle for AD had they waited, I don't.
I think Bron wanted him right away and that's what happened.
Had he been patient, they would have been set up well for years to come.
We have made a good recovery, but it took a lot of unnecessary suffering to get back again. |
Well, you believe Lakers would have won the battle for AD had they waited. I don't.
Had Bron been patient, they might easily have lost AD and set up for Bron with BI, 'Zo and a bunch of role players for years to come.
You admitted it yourself, had we not traded for AD in 2019, it's not a guarantee to get AD in a later year. That's only your preference.
10:41 on 5/27/2023:
"I never said there was a guarantee. I said that's what I preferred."
Who gives a d*mn about your preference? Your subjective, personal preference has no bearing for me or other Lakers fans to judge the situation. If the NBA had guaranteed that they would gift-wrapped AD to the Lakers in the 2020 off-season, then it would have been a different story...
So, it's your belief vs my belief, mine is every bit as good as yours, not to mention your own confession that it's not a guarantee 
Worse yet, your other reasoning still contradict your claim, like "we made a good recovery", which contradicts your claim that we lost our depth in trading for AD. I've mentioned this many times. If you keep posting your nonsense to try to get the last say, I'll keep responding with the same argument.
And what did you say about not wasting your energy to argue with me? at 10:47 on 5/28/2023, your own words:
"I'm not going to waste much energy on someone who doesn't stand for anything other than debating this one thread. But if he wants to waste his, then I'll let him burn himself out."
Still smarting that I don't give up? Burn out? no chance!!! |
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wolfpaclaker
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Joined: 29 May 2002
Posts: 58409
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| Posted: Wed May 31, 2023 8:43 am Post subject: |
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I was thinking what we need from AD next year. And to me, as he's getting older, I think it becomes even more important he continue to work on his 3 point shot. It has abandoned him, but he hit some of them in the Nuggets series.
It's a fine line, you don't want him shooting too many 3s, but you also don't want him fixated in scoring in the paint. It was so easy for teams to double us in some road games because they knew AD was only a threat from FT line and in. Once they had a team that could actually rebound, we really suffered with AD setting up high and doing so much screen work. I would definitely still encourage AD to work on his 3 point shot from the corner and wing, and so he can play the PF/4 more vs 0 minutes there. We need to make some lineup changes if we want to win a ring. Not sure what Lebron has left next year, but I don't see us winning a title (or making the Finals/winning the West) unless we use AD at the 4 a bit more, and he makes some of his 3 pointers. The only time we won a title and were playoff dominant, we had that kind of AD.
Of course I fully expect all of that to be ignored and we'll go chase Kyrie, or re-sign DLO to a big deal and keep AD at the 5, add some scrub/RS depth type Center ... but still hoping. AD at the 5 is asking for some big team to come in and beat us up inside. This is just like how we needed a Bynum for Pau, and Odom wasn't enough. Pau/Odom/Kobe were the 3 best offense players, but to win a ring you needed a big like Bynum so that Pau didn't have to play all of his minutes at the 5. In this era, Pau would be shooting 3 pointers as well. |
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activeverb
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Posts: 37470
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| Posted: Wed May 31, 2023 8:57 am Post subject: |
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| BILBJH wrote: |
If I had a nickel for every time you said you are done only to come back like Bill Murray in Groundhog Day. |
I just meant I was done with the current discussion with you because we were at the point we were both just repeating stuff we had already said several times without adding anything new. That doesn't mean I won't come back at some point and engage in this thread if someone says something I feel like responding to. (I guess I have the old school thing where you acknowledge you are bowing out of a particular conversation rather than just disappear; this isn't a slam on you by the way. These discussions always become repetitive after a bit.) Be well. |
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BILBJH
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Joined: 23 Jul 2020
Posts: 5146
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| Posted: Wed May 31, 2023 9:33 am Post subject: |
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| wolfpaclaker wrote: | I was thinking what we need from AD next year. And to me, as he's getting older, I think it becomes even more important he continue to work on his 3 point shot. It has abandoned him, but he hit some of them in the Nuggets series.
It's a fine line, you don't want him shooting too many 3s, but you also don't want him fixated in scoring in the paint. It was so easy for teams to double us in some road games because they knew AD was only a threat from FT line and in. Once they had a team that could actually rebound, we really suffered with AD setting up high and doing so much screen work. I would definitely still encourage AD to work on his 3 point shot from the corner and wing, and so he can play the PF/4 more vs 0 minutes there. We need to make some lineup changes if we want to win a ring. Not sure what Lebron has left next year, but I don't see us winning a title (or making the Finals/winning the West) unless we use AD at the 4 a bit more, and he makes some of his 3 pointers. The only time we won a title and were playoff dominant, we had that kind of AD.
Of course I fully expect all of that to be ignored and we'll go chase Kyrie, or re-sign DLO to a big deal and keep AD at the 5, add some scrub/RS depth type Center ... but still hoping. AD at the 5 is asking for some big team to come in and beat us up inside. This is just like how we needed a Bynum for Pau, and Odom wasn't enough. Pau/Odom/Kobe were the 3 best offense players, but to win a ring you needed a big like Bynum so that Pau didn't have to play all of his minutes at the 5. In this era, Pau would be shooting 3 pointers as well. |
One of the great mysteries of this game is how certain players become suddenly competent at three point shooting after years of shooting it poorly, or have a good year only to lose the ability.
Obviously a fluke game you understand, but when they go a season shooting well and then lose it, it seems really strange.
I also don't understand how some players who are money from the free throw line, can't seem to shoot the three. I get that they are two different disciplines but the basic mechanics and ability to shoot seem to be still be related.
It makes sense why Dwight and Shaq couldn't ever really shoot threes but it doesn't make sense why AD can't. He had three seasons where he shot it at the low end of competence but has since become one of the worst three point shooters who is allowed to shoot it regularly.
He's shot it 25.7% this season, which would rank last had he played enough games to qualify
He shot 18.6% and 26% the previous years.
The year we won, he shot 33% and he also shot 84% from the free throw line. But AD always shoots around 80% from the line.
The year Dennis had his breakout season he shot 38.5% from three compared to his career average of 33.7%. His two point shot was also 51% which was a career high. This type of efficiency is worth 84 million but he's never been able to duplicate it. But I don't get either why Dennis can't shoot the three consistently... his free throw form is money,
I also will never understand why Julius went from shooting 27% from three to suddenly 41% in 2021. He's still doing better than AD shooting 34% this year on high volume, but it doesn't make sense.
And then Ingram transforming from a 68% free throw shooter with us, to an 88% free throw shooter with the Pelicans.
He did have one season with us where he shot 39% from three and then he regressed to 33% the following year. And then he became a reliable three point shooter other than one year.
Last season he shot .484/.390/.882 from 2/3/FT Very close to the exclusive 50/40/90 club.
Anyway, I digress... I'm just trying to make sense of why AD or Dennis can't shoot threes.
I agree with you that it would make a huge difference, and it seems like AD should be able to shoot threes if players like Julius and Ingram could turn it around. You wonder is he putting the reps... is this just mental?
But AD shooting 35% from three and Dennis (if we sign him) shooting 38% would be a game changer, and I don't get why they don't. |
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yinoma2001
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| Posted: Wed May 31, 2023 9:39 am Post subject: |
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This is still going on?
*leaves chat*
_________________
From 2-10 to the Western Conference Finals |
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Halflife
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Joined: 15 Aug 2015
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Kblo247!
Star Player
Joined: 05 Oct 2015
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| Posted: Wed May 31, 2023 1:04 pm Post subject: |
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| BILBJH wrote: | | wolfpaclaker wrote: | I was thinking what we need from AD next year. And to me, as he's getting older, I think it becomes even more important he continue to work on his 3 point shot. It has abandoned him, but he hit some of them in the Nuggets series.
It's a fine line, you don't want him shooting too many 3s, but you also don't want him fixated in scoring in the paint. It was so easy for teams to double us in some road games because they knew AD was only a threat from FT line and in. Once they had a team that could actually rebound, we really suffered with AD setting up high and doing so much screen work. I would definitely still encourage AD to work on his 3 point shot from the corner and wing, and so he can play the PF/4 more vs 0 minutes there. We need to make some lineup changes if we want to win a ring. Not sure what Lebron has left next year, but I don't see us winning a title (or making the Finals/winning the West) unless we use AD at the 4 a bit more, and he makes some of his 3 pointers. The only time we won a title and were playoff dominant, we had that kind of AD.
Of course I fully expect all of that to be ignored and we'll go chase Kyrie, or re-sign DLO to a big deal and keep AD at the 5, add some scrub/RS depth type Center ... but still hoping. AD at the 5 is asking for some big team to come in and beat us up inside. This is just like how we needed a Bynum for Pau, and Odom wasn't enough. Pau/Odom/Kobe were the 3 best offense players, but to win a ring you needed a big like Bynum so that Pau didn't have to play all of his minutes at the 5. In this era, Pau would be shooting 3 pointers as well. |
One of the great mysteries of this game is how certain players become suddenly competent at three point shooting after years of shooting it poorly, or have a good year only to lose the ability.
Obviously a fluke game you understand, but when they go a season shooting well and then lose it, it seems really strange.
I also don't understand how some players who are money from the free throw line, can't seem to shoot the three. I get that they are two different disciplines but the basic mechanics and ability to shoot seem to be still be related.
It makes sense why Dwight and Shaq couldn't ever really shoot threes but it doesn't make sense why AD can't. He had three seasons where he shot it at the low end of competence but has since become one of the worst three point shooters who is allowed to shoot it regularly.
He's shot it 25.7% this season, which would rank last had he played enough games to qualify
He shot 18.6% and 26% the previous years.
The year we won, he shot 33% and he also shot 84% from the free throw line. But AD always shoots around 80% from the line.
The year Dennis had his breakout season he shot 38.5% from three compared to his career average of 33.7%. His two point shot was also 51% which was a career high. This type of efficiency is worth 84 million but he's never been able to duplicate it. But I don't get either why Dennis can't shoot the three consistently... his free throw form is money,
I also will never understand why Julius went from shooting 27% from three to suddenly 41% in 2021. He's still doing better than AD shooting 34% this year on high volume, but it doesn't make sense.
And then Ingram transforming from a 68% free throw shooter with us, to an 88% free throw shooter with the Pelicans.
He did have one season with us where he shot 39% from three and then he regressed to 33% the following year. And then he became a reliable three point shooter other than one year.
Last season he shot .484/.390/.882 from 2/3/FT Very close to the exclusive 50/40/90 club.
Anyway, I digress... I'm just trying to make sense of why AD or Dennis can't shoot threes.
I agree with you that it would make a huge difference, and it seems like AD should be able to shoot threes if players like Julius and Ingram could turn it around. You wonder is he putting the reps... is this just mental?
But AD shooting 35% from three and Dennis (if we sign him) shooting 38% would be a game changer, and I don't get why they don't. |
Your point about AD is the limited reps. He shot 74 attempts last year and some of them include half court and three quarter court heaves where he doesn’t worry about clock.
When AD came to LA and in the year he played mostly as PF, he took 218 threes. The two pelican years he shot 34% he took 162 and 145 threes, all where he spent more time at PF than C. AD hasn’t cracked 100 attempts any year but year 1. In the bubble he took 60 attempts in about 20 games and hit 38%
AD ain’t a terrible shot though. AD in the playoffs shot 56% from 16 to 24 feet. He’s fine shooting a jumper. He just tends to shoot more jumpers and threes when his minutes skews 4.
The Denis thing is also something. Denis took 325 attempts that year in okc.
As a Laker he took 213 and 225. Chris Paul created his threes too in okc. |
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ArminNBA
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| Posted: Thu Jun 01, 2023 2:14 pm Post subject: |
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| Denny_Russo wrote: | | ArminNBA wrote: | 1 championship run, 1 WCF run, and 2 injury-riddled seasons.
At the end of the day, even if the deal wasn't as successful as we'd all hoped, it produced a championship and another incredibly fun playoff run. And AD's Laker tenure isn't over presumably, so we have more years to judge the success level of the AD deal. |
Being swept is a disappointment under most circumstances, but I agree with the main point- AD's tenure resulted in a championship. A championship they would not have won with the young core. Just look at how the Celtics are struggling postseason after postseason, despite so many promising young players and draft picks. Nothing is guaranteed. Lakers cashed in already, and anything else from this point onwards is gravy. Wouldn't even care if Lebron bolts. I'm so done with him. AD was the prime reason for their success. If he goes, Lakers are certain to rebuild.
But it is also true Lakers had some key blunders along the way, with the Westbrook trade being the main one. It seems Rob has learned from it. He gave Lebron and Klutch too much sway in the organization. It is my hope he has a zero tolerance policy towards anyone trying to undermine him. If LeGm wants to make personnel decisions, he can do it on another team.
Not holding on to one of BroLo or Zu was also costly, especially in terms of defensive relief for AD. Vando made up for some of it, but he was close to unplayable in the playoffs.
The focus will be on Rui, AR, Christie, #17 and possibly DLo next season. That is the "young" core the Lakers are stuck with, for better or for worse. |
I completely agree. But the mistakes following the AD trade doesn't diminish the quality of the AD trade itself. Like you said, AD bringing the Lakers a title automatically designates this trade as a winning one.
However, on that note, I can't help but imagine the Lakers' success if they had kept Kuzma and KCP, instead of making the disastrous Russ trade.
Honestly...I'd rather have had Kuzma and KCP instead of DLo/Vando/Malik for this postseason run. All three were almost unplayable in the Nuggets series. I can't help but think the Lakers would still be playing right now if they had a lineup of Austin/KCP/Kuzma/Bron/AD with Rui and Dennis off the bench. |
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JustaObserver
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Joined: 20 May 2017
Posts: 3304
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| Posted: Thu Jun 01, 2023 3:23 pm Post subject: |
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| ArminNBA wrote: | | Denny_Russo wrote: | | ArminNBA wrote: | 1 championship run, 1 WCF run, and 2 injury-riddled seasons.
At the end of the day, even if the deal wasn't as successful as we'd all hoped, it produced a championship and another incredibly fun playoff run. And AD's Laker tenure isn't over presumably, so we have more years to judge the success level of the AD deal. |
Being swept is a disappointment under most circumstances, but I agree with the main point- AD's tenure resulted in a championship. A championship they would not have won with the young core. Just look at how the Celtics are struggling postseason after postseason, despite so many promising young players and draft picks. Nothing is guaranteed. Lakers cashed in already, and anything else from this point onwards is gravy. Wouldn't even care if Lebron bolts. I'm so done with him. AD was the prime reason for their success. If he goes, Lakers are certain to rebuild.
But it is also true Lakers had some key blunders along the way, with the Westbrook trade being the main one. It seems Rob has learned from it. He gave Lebron and Klutch too much sway in the organization. It is my hope he has a zero tolerance policy towards anyone trying to undermine him. If LeGm wants to make personnel decisions, he can do it on another team.
Not holding on to one of BroLo or Zu was also costly, especially in terms of defensive relief for AD. Vando made up for some of it, but he was close to unplayable in the playoffs.
The focus will be on Rui, AR, Christie, #17 and possibly DLo next season. That is the "young" core the Lakers are stuck with, for better or for worse. |
I completely agree. But the mistakes following the AD trade doesn't diminish the quality of the AD trade itself. Like you said, AD bringing the Lakers a title automatically designates this trade as a winning one.
However, on that note, I can't help but imagine the Lakers' success if they had kept Kuzma and KCP, instead of making the disastrous Russ trade.
Honestly...I'd rather have had Kuzma and KCP instead of DLo/Vando/Malik for this postseason run. All three were almost unplayable in the Nuggets series. I can't help but think the Lakers would still be playing right now if they had a lineup of Austin/KCP/Kuzma/Bron/AD with Rui and Dennis off the bench. |
Where do you rank this AD trade compared to getting Shaq and Kareem? Or the Drfat night trade of Kobe..heck even getting Pau? |
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WorthyNum1
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Joined: 25 Sep 2012
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| Posted: Thu Jun 01, 2023 5:56 pm Post subject: |
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| JustaObserver wrote: |
Where do you rank this AD trade compared to getting Shaq and Kareem? Or the Drfat night trade of Kobe..heck even getting Pau? |
AD trade > Shaq/Kareem/Pau acquisition. Championship in the first year. None of the other big men could do that.
In the Shaq and Kareem era, which trade afterwards was comparable to the Westbrook trade?
Geez, you tried to count the failed Westbrook trade as part of the AD trade? No chance! |
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Outspoken
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Joined: 11 Feb 2015
Posts: 8468
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| Posted: Thu Jun 01, 2023 6:08 pm Post subject: |
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We overpaid for AD.
I do think that AD, right now, would be better off if LeBron wasn't on the team.
Lakers would be better off if LeBron wasn't on the team.
Unless LeBron stops acting as if he is in his prime, the #1 option, and he takes a lesser role.
If LeBron stops holding the ball for so long, stagnating the offense, Lakers would flourish more effectively.
I also think that Lakers need to stop forcing AD to play center and find an actual center to play next to AD.
Last edited by Outspoken on Thu Jun 01, 2023 6:17 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Outspoken
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| Posted: Thu Jun 01, 2023 6:16 pm Post subject: |
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| WorthyNum1 wrote: | | JustaObserver wrote: |
Where do you rank this AD trade compared to getting Shaq and Kareem? Or the Drfat night trade of Kobe..heck even getting Pau? |
AD trade > Shaq/Kareem/Pau acquisition. Championship in the first year. None of the other big men could do that.
In the Shaq and Kareem era, which trade afterwards was comparable to the Westbrook trade?
Geez, you tried to count the failed Westbrook trade as part of the AD trade? No chance! |
I can't tell if you're serious or not. |
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WorthyNum1
Starting Rotation
Joined: 25 Sep 2012
Posts: 170
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| Posted: Thu Jun 01, 2023 7:32 pm Post subject: |
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| Outspoken wrote: | | WorthyNum1 wrote: | | JustaObserver wrote: |
Where do you rank this AD trade compared to getting Shaq and Kareem? Or the Drfat night trade of Kobe..heck even getting Pau? |
AD trade > Shaq/Kareem/Pau acquisition. Championship in the first year. None of the other big men could do that.
In the Shaq and Kareem era, which trade afterwards was comparable to the Westbrook trade?
Geez, you tried to count the failed Westbrook trade as part of the AD trade? No chance! |
I can't tell if you're serious or not. |
Of course I am serious. Shaq's first year - loss to the Jazz in the 2nd round, Kareem's first year - missed the playoffs. Gasol's first year - loss in the finals.
Why don't you tell us about the trade in the Shaq/Kareem/Pau era that's comparable to the Westbrick trade? |
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