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epic_
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 Posted: Mon Apr 10, 2023 1:21 pm Post subject: |
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Semantics. I'm pretty sure if you guys defined things, most would be in agreement. But I'm glad there's an actual thread for this instead of it being in all the other threads. Cheers.
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mad55557777
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Joined: 29 Jun 2005
Posts: 23612
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| Posted: Mon Apr 10, 2023 1:28 pm Post subject: |
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| epic_ wrote: | | Semantics. I'm pretty sure if you guys defined things, most would be in agreement. But I'm glad there's an actual thread for this instead of it being in all the other threads. Cheers. |
There is one every year. “We gave away 10 years worth of assets” thread is still somewhere buried down |
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Staccatos
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Joined: 16 Jul 2002
Posts: 2416
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| Posted: Mon Apr 10, 2023 1:58 pm Post subject: |
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Getting AD was the right move. It's been unfortunate that he's been injured as much as he has been.
The Lakers did know that AD would miss some games but no one could know how much. But his Laker minutes played are substantially less than when he played for New Orleans.
Regular Season Total Minutes Played Ranked
1. 2017-18 Minutes Played 2724 (NO)
2. 2016-17 Minutes Played 2708 (NO)
3. 2014-15 Minutes Played 2455 (NO)
4. 2013-14 Minutes Played 2358 (NO)
5. 2015-16 Minutes Played 2164 (NO)
6. 2019-20 Minutes Played 2131 (LAL)
7. 2022-23 Minutes Played 1904 (LAL)
8. 2018-19 Minutes Played 1850 (NO)
9. 2012-13 Minutes Played 1846 (NO)
10. 2021-22 Minutes Played 1404 (LAL)
11. 2020-21 Minutes Played 1162 (LAL)
My main issue is still with the Lakers front office. Regardless of who Lebron wants on his team, it's up to the front office to make the moves. There have been some bipolar rosters put together in the AD/LBJ Laker era.
There should have been much more success than really just one post-season run. |
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activeverb
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Joined: 17 Jun 2006
Posts: 37470
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| Posted: Mon Apr 10, 2023 2:05 pm Post subject: |
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| BILBJH wrote: |
It was normal for us to reload for five to ten years and then run off a series of titles or finals appearances |
The foundation of Laker exceptionalism is Showtime. That was a consequence of drafting a goat level player, and teaming him with a second goat level player who we got through a trade.
That was followed by the three peat that was the consequence of drafting a goat level player and teaming him with a young goat level player we got through free agency.
Kobe stuck around for 20 years and won two more rings toward the end of his career.
So our winning trajectory is really all about having kareem, magic, shaq, and kobe, most of them for a long time. Its more about drafting magic and kobe, and having them stick around for 35 years, rather than successful reloading.
And, as I noted the winning trajectory slowed from the five rings in the '80s to the two rings in the 2010s.
I don't know that you can replicate that winning trajectory unless you just get lucky and draft a guy who turns into a goat level player. I have no reason to think that if we had kept all the guys from the ad trade the result would have replicated the earlier winning trajectory.
No one we gave up for AD has turned into an all NBA level player, let alone a goat level player so I'm not as wistful as you about the road not taken. |
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drae
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| Posted: Mon Apr 10, 2023 2:35 pm Post subject: |
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We won a chip before the Victor wembanyama era in the NBA so that's fine. A second chip will make the deal a one hundred percent win.
Next year Victor comes into the NBA and if he stays healthy (which he looks like he will) the next ten years will be all about teams trying to rebuild their teams to deal with him. |
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TylersLakers
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Joined: 25 Feb 2016
Posts: 386
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| Posted: Mon Apr 10, 2023 2:47 pm Post subject: |
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It really comes down to what we do in this years playoffs and next years playoffs.
Let's say we win the Play-In game tomorrow, beat Memphis in 6 games, and lose a 6 or 7 game series in Round 2.
Then let's say we improve the team over the off-season and lose in the WCF next year.
After that, we make the decision to let LeBron leave and possibly look at trading AD - What we have is the following
- 1 Championship (2020)
- 2 Deep playoff runs (2023, 2024)
- 1 1st round exit largely due to injury (2021)
- 1 missed playoffs (2022)
That's a pretty damn good 5 year run especially considering we nearly sabotaged it with the Westbrook deal and letting Caruso walk. The Championship in 2020 justified the deal. Another couple deep playoff runs is the cherry on top.
My beef with the deal at the time was always giving up Josh Hart. If NO was getting Lonzo, BI, #4, all the pick swaps and extra picks - there's no way we should have also given up Josh Hart.
However, another deep playoff run or two and I won't get squeamish any longer. |
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nomoreshaq
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Joined: 21 Jun 2004
Posts: 5149
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| Posted: Mon Apr 10, 2023 2:49 pm Post subject: |
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| XTC wrote: | | activeverb wrote: |
I can understand that position. I question whether there really is a path that can replicate our historical winning trajectory. Look at our rings:
5 rings in the 1940s/50s.
1 ring in the 1970s.
5 rings in the 1980s.
3 rings in the 1990s.
2 rings in the 2020s.
1 ring in the 2010s.
If just go by an average, the winning "trajectory" is heavily skewed by events from 70 years ago, 40 years ago, and 30 years ago.
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Agree, the luxury tax repeater penalties have made it more challenging to build dynasties compared to earlier eras. |
And of all things - you cannot compare baseball's non-salary cap to the NBA's HIGHLY restrictive cap.
Hell, you can't even compare this to the Shaq signing since there was no salary cap back then.
The current CBA makes it nigh impossible to sustain a "dynasty". Salaries will get way too big too fast and contracts are way too short (there's no 400/10 Mike Trout kind of deals).
There's a reason the "Luka wants out" rumors are already starting. If this was baseball he'd be locked in for a decade -> literally see Mike Trout. |
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Aeneas Hunter
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Joined: 12 Jul 2005
Posts: 31763
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| Posted: Mon Apr 10, 2023 2:52 pm Post subject: |
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| nomoreshaq wrote: | | Hell, you can't even compare this to the Shaq signing since there was no salary cap back then. |
Just for the record, there was.
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nomoreshaq
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Joined: 21 Jun 2004
Posts: 5149
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| Posted: Mon Apr 10, 2023 2:52 pm Post subject: |
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| XTC wrote: | | activeverb wrote: |
I can understand that position. I question whether there really is a path that can replicate our historical winning trajectory. Look at our rings:
5 rings in the 1940s/50s.
1 ring in the 1970s.
5 rings in the 1980s.
3 rings in the 1990s.
2 rings in the 2020s.
1 ring in the 2010s.
If just go by an average, the winning "trajectory" is heavily skewed by events from 70 years ago, 40 years ago, and 30 years ago.
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Agree, the luxury tax repeater penalties have made it more challenging to build dynasties compared to earlier eras. |
Not just the lux tax. Shorter contracts, supermax, tax apron, these make it VERY hard to sustain a dynasty. Remember we could have paid Shaq "unlimited" money back in the day. 7 year deals were the thing for the longest time. Moreover, LeBron started the player enablement movement.
Baseball, on the other hand, is much easier to just keep paying and sustain a dynasty (see Dodgers).
Last edited by nomoreshaq on Mon Apr 10, 2023 2:53 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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nomoreshaq
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Posts: 5149
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| Posted: Mon Apr 10, 2023 2:53 pm Post subject: |
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| Aeneas Hunter wrote: | | nomoreshaq wrote: | | Hell, you can't even compare this to the Shaq signing since there was no salary cap back then. |
Just for the record, there was. |
I mean - it was far "different" than now is what I mean. |
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Dr. Laker
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Joined: 12 Apr 2002
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| Posted: Mon Apr 10, 2023 4:09 pm Post subject: |
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| nomoreshaq wrote: | | Aeneas Hunter wrote: | | nomoreshaq wrote: | | Hell, you can't even compare this to the Shaq signing since there was no salary cap back then. |
Just for the record, there was. |
I mean - it was far "different" than now is what I mean. |
Better point:
Early Showtime (79-80, 81-82, 84-85) - there was NO cap or lottery until 1985. Kareem forced his way to the Lakers (Knicks were too cheap to pay), Lakers basically bought McAdoo, Kupchak & Wilkes, drafted Magic, Worthy & Coop, traded for Scott (using Nixon, who they drafted). It would be impossible to build that team today. The Lakers had the league's highest payroll (double the salary cap in 1985). . . but Jerry Buss nearly went bankrupt. (That's important, because the experience informed the rest of his tenure as owner).
Late Showtime (86-87, 87-88) - new salary cap in place, only move was acquiring Mychal Thompson via trade, basically won with pre-cap roster. In fact, had Kareem not been swindled by his business manager, he would've retired after the '85 ring and there may not have been a late Showtime, but Kareem needed the $$$.
Threepeat Lakers (99-00, 00-01, 01-02) - Mark Cuban labelled them "Shaq, Kobe & the Merry Men of Minimum." It was true, because anyone who wanted to get paid besides Shaq & Kobe got dealt or cut:
NVE - traded before his extension was due.
Eddie Jones - traded before his extension was due.
Elden Campbell - traded to cut salary
Glen Rice - traded before his extension was due.
Horace Grant - traded before his extension was due.
Brian Shaw - cut and brought back at the minimum
Lindsey Hunter - traded to cut salary
Tyronn Lue - walked away for nothing
Robert Horry - traded before his extension was due.
Dr. Buss claimed "he didn't know that he could exceed the salary cap."
Kobe-Pau Lakers (07-08, 08-09, 09-10) - Dr. Buss is in ill health and the Buss Kids try to catch the Celtics before Jerry croaks, so they spend $$$, exceed the cap to take advantage of Kobe's window. They came close - had they not crapped the bed in Game 4 of the 08 Finals, they'd have caught and passed Foston. They entered into a long era of paying the luxury tax.
Bron Era (18-19 on) - they went all in on AD and tried to double down with Kawhi. Won a chip, tried to spend without being foolish. With the exception of Westbrook, they've avoided cap-strangling deals, and even maneuvered nicely out of the Russ debacle. If the team goes on a deep run/wins it all, they'll likely pay a small repeater tax to keep guys.
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Aeneas Hunter
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Joined: 12 Jul 2005
Posts: 31763
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| Posted: Mon Apr 10, 2023 5:51 pm Post subject: |
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| nomoreshaq wrote: | | Aeneas Hunter wrote: | | nomoreshaq wrote: | | Hell, you can't even compare this to the Shaq signing since there was no salary cap back then. |
Just for the record, there was. |
I mean - it was far "different" than now is what I mean. |
Sure. Your basic points are valid. Things were a lot different back then. In addition to what Dr. Laker said, something that people forget is that Jerry West made some slick moves to clear the cap space/payroll room to sign Shaq. That's how we wound up trading Vlade Divac to Charlotte for some kid right out of high school. We moved a couple other guys for second round picks, too.
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Megaton
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jonnybravo
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Joined: 21 Sep 2007
Posts: 30782
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| Posted: Mon Apr 10, 2023 6:26 pm Post subject: |
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| Aeneas Hunter wrote: | | nomoreshaq wrote: | | Aeneas Hunter wrote: | | nomoreshaq wrote: | | Hell, you can't even compare this to the Shaq signing since there was no salary cap back then. |
Just for the record, there was. |
I mean - it was far "different" than now is what I mean. |
Sure. Your basic points are valid. Things were a lot different back then. In addition to what Dr. Laker said, something that people forget is that Jerry West made some slick moves to clear the cap space/payroll room to sign Shaq. That's how we wound up trading Vlade Divac to Charlotte for some kid right out of high school. We moved a couple other guys for second round picks, too. |
George Lynch was the other piece we gave away to clear $$$ to offer Shaq that contract. I want to say Peeler as well but I can't recall if Peeler was traded before that off-season.
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LakerFan1987
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Joined: 30 Oct 2022
Posts: 1561
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| Posted: Mon Apr 10, 2023 7:06 pm Post subject: |
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| jonnybravo wrote: | | Aeneas Hunter wrote: | | nomoreshaq wrote: | | Aeneas Hunter wrote: | | nomoreshaq wrote: | | Hell, you can't even compare this to the Shaq signing since there was no salary cap back then. |
Just for the record, there was. |
I mean - it was far "different" than now is what I mean. |
Sure. Your basic points are valid. Things were a lot different back then. In addition to what Dr. Laker said, something that people forget is that Jerry West made some slick moves to clear the cap space/payroll room to sign Shaq. That's how we wound up trading Vlade Divac to Charlotte for some kid right out of high school. We moved a couple other guys for second round picks, too. |
George Lynch was the other piece we gave away to clear $$$ to offer Shaq that contract. I want to say Peeler as well but I can't recall if Peeler was traded before that off-season. |
Peeler and Lynch were traded for future 2nd rd picks to clear cap space for Shaq |
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KindCrippler2000
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Joined: 02 May 2003
Posts: 15821
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| Posted: Mon Apr 10, 2023 7:09 pm Post subject: |
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| drae wrote: | We won a chip before the Victor wembanyama era in the NBA so that's fine. A second chip will make the deal a one hundred percent win.
Next year Victor comes into the NBA and if he stays healthy (which he looks like he will) the next ten years will be all about teams trying to rebuild their teams to deal with him. |
I wish Wemby the best but we're also in the era of injury prone players. Look at Chet or Zion. The NBA inherited a big mess with these youngins coming in with so much mileage on their bodies. If I were a team, I'd feel safer drafting Scoot. |
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J.C. Smith
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Joined: 23 Jun 2005
Posts: 12690
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| Posted: Mon Apr 10, 2023 7:09 pm Post subject: |
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| jonnybravo wrote: | | George Lynch was the other piece we gave away to clear $$$ to offer Shaq that contract. I want to say Peeler as well but I can't recall if Peeler was traded before that off-season. |
You were correct. They traded Peeler and Lynch together with two second round picks, for two second round picks (which became Patterson and Celestand). |
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drae
Franchise Player
Joined: 13 Nov 2018
Posts: 16145
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| Posted: Mon Apr 10, 2023 7:13 pm Post subject: |
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| KindCrippler2000 wrote: | | drae wrote: | We won a chip before the Victor wembanyama era in the NBA so that's fine. A second chip will make the deal a one hundred percent win.
Next year Victor comes into the NBA and if he stays healthy (which he looks like he will) the next ten years will be all about teams trying to rebuild their teams to deal with him. |
I wish Wemby the best but we're also in the era of injury prone players. Look at Chet or Zion. The NBA inherited a big mess with these youngins coming in with so much mileage on their bodies. If I were a team, I'd feel safer drafting Scoot. |
Injury prone young players are mainly American because of the rigors of the youth circuit. Victor plays in France, fewer games more time in the gym and on the practice court.
Victor's played 79 games in 3 years playing for France. Lots of time in the gym means he looks like this though:
https://www.the-sun.com/wp-content/uploads/sites/6/2023/03/taken-without-permission-victor-wembanyama-802830437.jpg |
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Bron2AD
Star Player
Joined: 01 Jun 2021
Posts: 9391
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| Posted: Mon Apr 10, 2023 7:21 pm Post subject: |
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| Megaton wrote: | You can tell it’s always the SAME people that think the AD trade was bad.
At least be original.  |
Year 2050: SAME people still be still arguing that ad trade was bad 😂 |
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1995Lakers
Star Player
Joined: 26 Aug 2020
Posts: 4462
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| Posted: Mon Apr 10, 2023 7:33 pm Post subject: |
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| Dr. Laker wrote: | | nomoreshaq wrote: | | Aeneas Hunter wrote: | | nomoreshaq wrote: | | Hell, you can't even compare this to the Shaq signing since there was no salary cap back then. |
Just for the record, there was. |
I mean - it was far "different" than now is what I mean. |
Better point:
Early Showtime (79-80, 81-82, 84-85) - there was NO cap or lottery until 1985. Kareem forced his way to the Lakers (Knicks were too cheap to pay), Lakers basically bought McAdoo, Kupchak & Wilkes, drafted Magic, Worthy & Coop, traded for Scott (using Nixon, who they drafted). It would be impossible to build that team today. The Lakers had the league's highest payroll (double the salary cap in 1985). . . but Jerry Buss nearly went bankrupt. (That's important, because the experience informed the rest of his tenure as owner).
Late Showtime (86-87, 87-88) - new salary cap in place, only move was acquiring Mychal Thompson via trade, basically won with pre-cap roster. In fact, had Kareem not been swindled by his business manager, he would've retired after the '85 ring and there may not have been a late Showtime, but Kareem needed the $$$.
Threepeat Lakers (99-00, 00-01, 01-02) - Mark Cuban labelled them "Shaq, Kobe & the Merry Men of Minimum." It was true, because anyone who wanted to get paid besides Shaq & Kobe got dealt or cut:
NVE - traded before his extension was due.
Eddie Jones - traded before his extension was due.
Elden Campbell - traded to cut salary
Glen Rice - traded before his extension was due.
Horace Grant - traded before his extension was due.
Brian Shaw - cut and brought back at the minimum
Lindsey Hunter - traded to cut salary
Tyronn Lue - walked away for nothing
Robert Horry - traded before his extension was due.
Dr. Buss claimed "he didn't know that he could exceed the salary cap."
Kobe-Pau Lakers (07-08, 08-09, 09-10) - Dr. Buss is in ill health and the Buss Kids try to catch the Celtics before Jerry croaks, so they spend $$$, exceed the cap to take advantage of Kobe's window. They came close - had they not crapped the bed in Game 4 of the 08 Finals, they'd have caught and passed Foston. They entered into a long era of paying the luxury tax.
Bron Era (18-19 on) - they went all in on AD and tried to double down with Kawhi. Won a chip, tried to spend without being foolish. With the exception of Westbrook, they've avoided cap-strangling deals, and even maneuvered nicely out of the Russ debacle. If the team goes on a deep run/wins it all, they'll likely pay a small repeater tax to keep guys. |
Agree with almost everything except the beating Boston in 08 part. That loss I feel was inevitable and when you hear Kobe talk, even he cannot say that is the one that got away as he does when he talks about 2004 vs Detroit. Even had we won Game 4, Game 7 would be at Boston Garden with the Celtics coming off kicking the crap out of us in Game 6 because winning Game 4, I dont think changes the outcome of Games 5 or 6. If anything, it could change the outcome of Game 5 with the series tied and the Celtics with more urgency than they had with a 3-1 lead. That Lakers team was too inexperienced and soft to be able to finish off the Celtics in Game 6 even with a 3-2 lead when Celtic desperation would be at its peak similar to how we kicked the crap out of the Celtics in Game 6 in 2010 down 3-2 entering the game. I just dont see us beating Boston at the Garden in a Game 7 in 2008. In fact, for that year, my gut would have said the Celtics were the slight favorites even had Game 7 been at the Staples Center in 2008. |
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GOODRICH25
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Posts: 3366
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| Posted: Mon Apr 10, 2023 8:54 pm Post subject: |
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2008 Celtics were different, i think with Bynum we could have pushed them to a game 7, but eventually we probably lose. It sucks because it should have been KG here and another 3peat. (bleep) McHale and (bleep) Boston
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GOODRICH25
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| Posted: Mon Apr 10, 2023 9:06 pm Post subject: |
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The AD trade to me comes down to this. Yes we got the All NBA superstar and we won a chip. However, would it have been possible to save 1-2 assets in that trade? BI, Zo, Hart, 4th pick is already a haul, then 2 more 1st rounders and a swap. If we managed to keep the 2024 pick it would have been a great get for NO as well. The Washington trade was to make space for Kawhi, but why was the 2nd rounder included? Could some of those guys go for AD too? What about Zubac who we gifted away, or Svi? Today those names look irrelevant (bar Zu) but im sure back then they hekd atleast some value.
Listing names and comparing to AD it seems ofcourse we won. However, who says we would draft those same names? And even if so, those were assets that could have been used for other future trades (for example, if they werent wasteful with their picks and young players, maybe we land a better player in the summer of 2021 than Westbrook?)
Im still taking AD any day over those guys, but im just saying that we havent maxed out the assets we had
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Dr. Laker
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Joined: 12 Apr 2002
Posts: 17133
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| Posted: Mon Apr 10, 2023 9:09 pm Post subject: |
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| GOODRICH25 wrote: | | 2008 Celtics were different, i think with Bynum we could have pushed them to a game 7, but eventually we probably lose. It sucks because it should have been KG here and another 3peat. (bleep) McHale and (bleep) Boston |
+1 gazillion
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Dominic1981
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| Posted: Mon Apr 10, 2023 9:36 pm Post subject: |
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| The problem with the AD trade is they could have waited a year and signed him in free agency. In terms of maximizing the length of a championship window, this was not a smart trade of assets. |
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Dr. Laker
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| Posted: Mon Apr 10, 2023 9:41 pm Post subject: |
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| Dominic1981 wrote: | | The problem with the AD trade is they could have waited a year and signed him in free agency. In terms of maximizing the length of a championship window, this was not a smart trade of assets. |
Like they did with Paul George, or like they did with Kawhi Leonard?
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