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LakersForever123
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Joined: 07 Oct 2012
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 Posted: Tue Jun 06, 2023 9:48 am Post subject: |
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| Frank Vogel and Dwight Howard-would have been enough to stop Jokic and the nuggets. |
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ocho
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| Posted: Tue Jun 06, 2023 9:51 am Post subject: |
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| LakersForever123 wrote: | | Frank Vogel and Dwight Howard-would have been enough to stop Jokic and the nuggets. |
Howard being effective against Jokic was a long time ago when they were both different players. I promise you that the 37 year old center of the Taoyuan Leopards was not going to stop Nikola Jokic in the year of our lord 2023.
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Lakeshow23_
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Joined: 02 May 2021
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| Posted: Tue Jun 06, 2023 9:59 am Post subject: |
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| I do wonder how different things would have been if TT was unearthed in game 1. Though, I do remember us playing well in the non-AD minutes in the series so probably wouldn't make much of a difference... unless they opted not to match AD's minutes with Jokic. |
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Brawn13
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Joined: 30 Jan 2019
Posts: 3912
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| Posted: Tue Jun 06, 2023 12:36 pm Post subject: |
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| Stop it. We win a game or 2 maybe. Nuggets are better than us plain and simple |
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KingKobe20
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Joined: 14 Jul 2006
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Location: L.A County, 26 miles away from Staples Center
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| Posted: Tue Jun 06, 2023 1:09 pm Post subject: |
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| kikanga wrote: |
Now Vogel with a roster like the one we had in 2020. For sure, we would beat Denver and Miami, again. |
Fixed |
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A Mad Chinaman
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| Posted: Tue Jun 06, 2023 1:30 pm Post subject: |
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My POV
Vogel would not have survived the season that started with Westbrook on the team.
Team’s morale would have been destroyed
Vogel is a good coach and wish him well with Suns |
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lakersfever714
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Joined: 05 Jan 2016
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| Posted: Tue Jun 06, 2023 2:09 pm Post subject: |
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Watch Vogel win a championship in his first year with the Suns and build a dynasty there, then Laker fans are really gonna cry. There was absolutely no reason to fault Vogel for the 2022 or 2021 season based on the roster that was given to him and AD not being healthy.
Pelinka redeemed himself with building a decent roster this year but it was a mistake to let go of Vogel. Now the coaching carousel will begin once again after they fire Ham after next season. Unless the standard has been lowered to WCF as satisfactory, then just keep Ham and be happy with WCF every year.
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Last edited by lakersfever714 on Tue Jun 06, 2023 2:18 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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lakersfever714
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| Posted: Tue Jun 06, 2023 2:14 pm Post subject: |
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Howard's still balling in Taiwan. Why didn't we re-sign him? We needed him to slow down Joker and KCP to slow down Jamal, then we would have gotten #18 with ease. Championships are easy if you know basketball.
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laker4life
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Joined: 26 Nov 2001
Posts: 7324
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| Posted: Tue Jun 06, 2023 3:06 pm Post subject: |
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| lakersfever714 wrote: | Watch Vogel win a championship in his first year with the Suns and build a dynasty there, then Laker fans are really gonna cry. There was absolutely no reason to fault Vogel for the 2022 or 2021 season based on the roster that was given to him and AD not being healthy.
Pelinka redeemed himself with building a decent roster this year but it was a mistake to let go of Vogel. Now the coaching carousel will begin once again after they fire Ham after next season. Unless the standard has been lowered to WCF as satisfactory, then just keep Ham and be happy with WCF every year. |
You absolutely correct.
Vogel won a championship and you fire him 2 years later when you brought in Westbrook. Bad move.
Coaching matters.
Look at the Celtics and the Lakers, poor coaching was a factor of each team losing.
Look a Spoelstra and what he has done with the Heat. |
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lakersfever714
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Joined: 05 Jan 2016
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| Posted: Tue Jun 06, 2023 3:59 pm Post subject: |
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| laker4life wrote: | | lakersfever714 wrote: | Watch Vogel win a championship in his first year with the Suns and build a dynasty there, then Laker fans are really gonna cry. There was absolutely no reason to fault Vogel for the 2022 or 2021 season based on the roster that was given to him and AD not being healthy.
Pelinka redeemed himself with building a decent roster this year but it was a mistake to let go of Vogel. Now the coaching carousel will begin once again after they fire Ham after next season. Unless the standard has been lowered to WCF as satisfactory, then just keep Ham and be happy with WCF every year. |
You absolutely correct.
Vogel won a championship and you fire him 2 years later when you brought in Westbrook. Bad move.
Coaching matters.
Look at the Celtics and the Lakers, poor coaching was a factor of each team losing.
Look a Spoelstra and what he has done with the Heat. |
Yup, woulda coulda shoulda. If we had Vogel, maybe we would still be playing right now. I don't get the fascination with rookie headcoaches though. Why some teams like hiring rookie HC's? It's great if it works out but more often than not, it doesn't. You're paying to train someone on the job. It's ok to train someone if you're rebuilding but the Lakers aren't rebuilding. I'm glad Foston made the same mistake. I chuckle when people say the coach is still learning like it's a good thing. Like, really? You want your headcoach to be learning? 
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A Mad Chinaman
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Joined: 07 Apr 2005
Posts: 6177
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| Posted: Wed Jun 07, 2023 1:30 pm Post subject: |
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| lakersfever714 wrote: | | laker4life wrote: | | lakersfever714 wrote: | Watch Vogel win a championship in his first year with the Suns and build a dynasty there, then Laker fans are really gonna cry. There was absolutely no reason to fault Vogel for the 2022 or 2021 season based on the roster that was given to him and AD not being healthy.
Pelinka redeemed himself with building a decent roster this year but it was a mistake to let go of Vogel. Now the coaching carousel will begin once again after they fire Ham after next season. Unless the standard has been lowered to WCF as satisfactory, then just keep Ham and be happy with WCF every year. |
You absolutely correct.
Vogel won a championship and you fire him 2 years later when you brought in Westbrook. Bad move.
Coaching matters.
Look at the Celtics and the Lakers, poor coaching was a factor of each team losing.
Look a Spoelstra and what he has done with the Heat. |
Yup, woulda coulda shoulda. If we had Vogel, maybe we would still be playing right now. I don't get the fascination with rookie headcoaches though. Why some teams like hiring rookie HC's? It's great if it works out but more often than not, it doesn't. You're paying to train someone on the job. It's ok to train someone if you're rebuilding but the Lakers aren't rebuilding. I'm glad Foston made the same mistake. I chuckle when people say the coach is still learning like it's a good thing. Like, really? You want your headcoach to be learning? |
Wish Vogel the very best at Phoenix and hope that management will be able to get them some needed players.
Lakers are always focused on one thing, Winning a Ring. However, this year's team was successful at then going to the WCF. Even with one month remaining in the season, few would have thought that the Lakers had any legimate chance of actually winning a ring.
Reason why the Heat (not as talented as the Nuggets) are there in The Finals (they didn't make it last year) was the fact that they have Heat Culture, continuity in their roster, unselfish superstar, coaching staff and management (translation: Riles).
Hopefully that Jeannie will learn how Heat/Nuggets utilized continuity in their roster and culture to continuously win rings. Riles supporing Spoelstra = Rob supporting Ham.
IMHO - With Vogel as the HC and Westbrook on the roster, the morale would have been far warse than this season (Ham was a fresh voice and opportunity, instead of rehashing things that already didn't work). It was not Vogel's fault. Interesting to note the great differences in salaries Vogel got, in comparison to Monte Williams
If Vogel was the HV at the start of this season, would Rob have been forced to trade much earlier to receive lessor players in exchange.
Is Ham a Spoelstra or Pop, very few coaches are their equal at this time of their career. Was Riles (Chick Hearn's broadcasting partner) a good good coach when he took over for Paul Westhead who took over from Jack McKinley - nope
Should be noted that Miami’s Erik Spoelstra and Denver’s Michael Malone are two of the four NBA coaches to have spent at least eight years with their current team.
Championship coaches Nick Nurse, Mike Budenholzer, WCF/Coach of the Year Monty Williams and Doc Rivers were fired. 3 of the last 4 championship-winning coaches (Budenholzer, Vogel and Nurse) were fired
Any bet on how long it will take for Monte to make the Pistons and Ime Udoka making the Rockets legimiate contenders in their respective conferences in the upcoming season?
Ham made the toxic Westbrook situation tolerable that allowed Rob the needed leverage to get fantastic deals at the trade deadline.
Will Vogel build a dynasty at Phoenix with a 34+ years old KD and Booker with no legitimate bench? Will they win a ring next year????
Vogel and the Lakers are both in very good situations with all parties having excellent opportunity to succeed in the very near future. |
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Halflife
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Joined: 15 Aug 2015
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| Posted: Wed Jun 07, 2023 1:36 pm Post subject: |
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| A Mad Chinaman wrote: |
Lakers are always focused on one thing, Winning a Ring. . |
Disagree. This team isn't a championship contender. We need massive upgrades to be. Lets see what they do.
Keep a fun team or make tough decisions and build a legit contender.
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LakerSD
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| Posted: Wed Jun 07, 2023 1:40 pm Post subject: |
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Not this year. Nuggets have too much offense.
For all his flaws, Ham got a ton of production offensively.
Can’t have it both ways, and I don’t think Vogel’s defense would have been enough to overcome the offensive flaws under his systems and style of play. |
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Robblake
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| Posted: Wed Jun 07, 2023 4:28 pm Post subject: |
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| We should’ve never fired frank. |
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A Mad Chinaman
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Joined: 07 Apr 2005
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| Posted: Wed Jun 07, 2023 4:45 pm Post subject: |
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| Halflife wrote: | | A Mad Chinaman wrote: |
Lakers are always focused on one thing, Winning a Ring. . |
Disagree. This team isn't a championship contender. We need massive upgrades to be. Lets see what they do.
Keep a fun team or make tough decisions and build a legit contender. |
Agree that this team wasn't a championship team, but the focus was on winning a ring - even when Westbrook was on the team, as funny as this sounds |
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LakersRGolden
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Joined: 13 Jan 2002
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Location: Lake Forest
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| Posted: Wed Jun 07, 2023 4:56 pm Post subject: |
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| A Mad Chinaman wrote: | | Halflife wrote: | | A Mad Chinaman wrote: |
Lakers are always focused on one thing, Winning a Ring. . |
Disagree. This team isn't a championship contender. We need massive upgrades to be. Lets see what they do.
Keep a fun team or make tough decisions and build a legit contender. |
Agree that this team wasn't a championship team, but the focus was on winning a ring - even when Westbrook was on the team, as funny as this sounds |
Not really sure I can agree to that with a straight face considering the team they went out of their way to put together for the 21-22 season.
Nothing about those moves indicated wanting to win a ring. |
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XTC
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| Posted: Wed Jun 07, 2023 5:59 pm Post subject: |
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| ocho wrote: |
Howard being effective against Jokic was a long time ago when they were both different players. I promise you that the 37 year old center of the Taoyuan Leopards was not going to stop Nikola Jokic in the year of our lord 2023. |
Agree, I don’t think Howard has much left in the tank and wouldn’t have been able to duplicate his 2020 effort vs Jokic.
Dwight Howard officially left Taiwan a few days ago and will be trying to make a comeback in the NBA. Best of luck, he will need it. |
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followwind
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| Posted: Wed Jun 07, 2023 6:36 pm Post subject: |
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| lakersfever714 wrote: | | Howard's still balling in Taiwan. Why didn't we re-sign him? We needed him to slow down Joker and KCP to slow down Jamal, then we would have gotten #18 with ease. Championships are easy if you know basketball. |
If you know basketball you wouldn't have even brought up Dwight. He is balling in Taiwan - against very weak competition. I live in Taiwan now and I watched him play on TV and he just isn't who he was anymore, even compare to his 2020 version. There is a reason why he couldn't get a NBA contract this season and all of a sudden you expect him to be able to slow down Jokic? Unrealistic, to say the least. |
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ocho
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| Posted: Wed Jun 07, 2023 7:16 pm Post subject: |
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| XTC wrote: | | ocho wrote: |
Howard being effective against Jokic was a long time ago when they were both different players. I promise you that the 37 year old center of the Taoyuan Leopards was not going to stop Nikola Jokic in the year of our lord 2023. |
Agree, I don’t think Howard has much left in the tank and wouldn’t have been able to duplicate his 2020 effort vs Jokic.
Dwight Howard officially left Taiwan a few days ago and will be trying to make a comeback in the NBA. Best of luck, he will need it. |
I am genuinely alarmed every day at the short memories around here. It’s as if Dwight’s last season with us never happened. He was atrocious. The energetic bench spark guy from 2020 was gone. It’s like everyone only remembers people at their finest and assumes that’s who they’re getting.
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hype
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| Posted: Wed Jun 07, 2023 8:06 pm Post subject: |
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| ocho wrote: | | XTC wrote: | | ocho wrote: |
Howard being effective against Jokic was a long time ago when they were both different players. I promise you that the 37 year old center of the Taoyuan Leopards was not going to stop Nikola Jokic in the year of our lord 2023. |
Agree, I don’t think Howard has much left in the tank and wouldn’t have been able to duplicate his 2020 effort vs Jokic.
Dwight Howard officially left Taiwan a few days ago and will be trying to make a comeback in the NBA. Best of luck, he will need it. |
I am genuinely alarmed every day at the short memories around here. It’s as if Dwight’s last season with us never happened. He was atrocious. The energetic bench spark guy from 2020 was gone. It’s like everyone only remembers people at their finest and assumes that’s who they’re getting. |
Yeah, it really is astounding at times here.. Howard is def. nowhere near the player we all watched in 2020 but even more importantly Jokic is SIGNIFICENTLY better then he was then as well and would have absolutely cooked 2023 Dwight. |
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Kblo247!
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Joined: 05 Oct 2015
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| Posted: Wed Jun 07, 2023 8:26 pm Post subject: |
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| LakersRGolden wrote: | | A Mad Chinaman wrote: | | Halflife wrote: | | A Mad Chinaman wrote: |
Lakers are always focused on one thing, Winning a Ring. . |
Disagree. This team isn't a championship contender. We need massive upgrades to be. Lets see what they do.
Keep a fun team or make tough decisions and build a legit contender. |
Agree that this team wasn't a championship team, but the focus was on winning a ring - even when Westbrook was on the team, as funny as this sounds |
Not really sure I can agree to that with a straight face considering the team they went out of their way to put together for the 21-22 season.
Nothing about those moves indicated wanting to win a ring. |
Frank lost the locker room the day Rondo left the locker room. The team was a 500 team for whatever criticism you can make of Russ, Melo, Dwight, Monk etc up until the day Rondo got traded. They were good enough for the play in and maybe playoffs too but Frank lost the room when Rondo wasn’t there anymore to hold it and police it.
Darvin had a similar problem this year. He never could hold the locker room with Russ, Bev, Nunn, Thomas so they got rid of them all for him and he went out his way to connect with Russell, Beasley, and others and build chemistry and trust.
It’s hard to say Pelinka didn’t give either team this year or last the pieces. They were basically playing 500 ball until Rondo was dealt even with injuries, so it was clear that even if the vets didn’t like Frank, they were good enough to hover around play in level and stayed engaged with Rondo on their ass. It’s an indictment on Frank those same guys would not listen to him without Kidd, Dudley, or Rondo in a room.
It’s hard to say Pelinka didn’t give Ham the peices. We can point to Rui, but look at what AD actually played with. Troy was a singing that played all all star break, Denis a signing, Lonnie a signing, Gabriel and Reaves on the team, and you had AD. Bron missed 5 weeks, Russell missed half the time post trade and Beasley lost time progressively. Bamba never played. Vando finished the season but couldn’t play past round 1. The playoff core was Denis, Bron, AD, Reaves, Lonnie, Rui, Russell, and Vando. Russell and Bando couldn’t play the last round. Most the moves that made the run were just about clearing a locker room to listen to the coach as he had the main talent in place already.
Pelinka would not even let cousins back after his workout Haynes said because he didn’t want the locker room problem, not that Cousins couldn’t play this year before Thompson got the spot. Pelinka needs a locker room police mostly, not a talent evaluator because his teams have been good enough every year … his coaches, all 3 of them including Luke have all just been too soft to manage loud mouths in their locker room |
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Aeneas Hunter
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Joined: 12 Jul 2005
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| Posted: Thu Jun 08, 2023 4:41 am Post subject: |
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| Kblo247! wrote: | | It’s hard to say Pelinka didn’t give Ham the peices. We can point to Rui, but look at what AD actually played with. Troy was a singing that played all all star break, Denis a signing, Lonnie a signing, Gabriel and Reaves on the team, and you had AD. Bron missed 5 weeks, Russell missed half the time post trade and Beasley lost time progressively. Bamba never played. Vando finished the season but couldn’t play past round 1. The playoff core was Denis, Bron, AD, Reaves, Lonnie, Rui, Russell, and Vando. Russell and Bando couldn’t play the last round. Most the moves that made the run were just about clearing a locker room to listen to the coach as he had the main talent in place already. |
I don't know about that. A lot of the guys you listed turned out to be unplayable when it mattered. The Russell/Beasley/Vanderbilt trade looks different at this point than it did at the trade deadline. The major benefit was getting rid of Westbrook and getting a more balanced roster. When you say that the playoff core included Walker and Vanderbilt, that doesn't sound like a great roster.
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A Mad Chinaman
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Joined: 07 Apr 2005
Posts: 6177
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| Posted: Thu Jun 08, 2023 9:43 am Post subject: |
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| Kblo247! wrote: | | LakersRGolden wrote: | | A Mad Chinaman wrote: | | Halflife wrote: | | A Mad Chinaman wrote: | | Lakers are always focused on one thing, Winning a Ring. . |
Disagree. This team isn't a championship contender. We need massive upgrades to be. Lets see what they do.
Keep a fun team or make tough decisions and build a legit contender. |
Agree that this team wasn't a championship team, but the focus was on winning a ring - even when Westbrook was on the team, as funny as this sounds |
Not really sure I can agree to that with a straight face considering the team they went out of their way to put together for the 21-22 season.
Nothing about those moves indicated wanting to win a ring. |
Frank lost the locker room the day Rondo left the locker room. The team was a 500 team for whatever criticism you can make of Russ, Melo, Dwight, Monk etc up until the day Rondo got traded. They were good enough for the play in and maybe playoffs too but Frank lost the room when Rondo wasn’t there anymore to hold it and police it.
Darvin had a similar problem this year. He never could hold the locker room with Russ, Bev, Nunn, Thomas so they got rid of them all for him and he went out his way to connect with Russell, Beasley, and others and build chemistry and trust.
It’s hard to say Pelinka didn’t give either team this year or last the pieces. They were basically playing 500 ball until Rondo was dealt even with injuries, so it was clear that even if the vets didn’t like Frank, they were good enough to hover around play in level and stayed engaged with Rondo on their ass. It’s an indictment on Frank those same guys would not listen to him without Kidd, Dudley, or Rondo in a room.
It’s hard to say Pelinka didn’t give Ham the peices. We can point to Rui, but look at what AD actually played with. Troy was a singing that played all all star break, Denis a signing, Lonnie a signing, Gabriel and Reaves on the team, and you had AD. Bron missed 5 weeks, Russell missed half the time post trade and Beasley lost time progressively. Bamba never played. Vando finished the season but couldn’t play past round 1. The playoff core was Denis, Bron, AD, Reaves, Lonnie, Rui, Russell, and Vando. Russell and Bando couldn’t play the last round. Most the moves that made the run were just about clearing a locker room to listen to the coach as he had the main talent in place already.
Pelinka would not even let cousins back after his workout Haynes said because he didn’t want the locker room problem, not that Cousins couldn’t play this year before Thompson got the spot. Pelinka needs a locker room police mostly, not a talent evaluator because his teams have been good enough every year … his coaches, all 3 of them including Luke have all just been too soft to manage loud mouths in their locker room |
Agree that Vogel lost the locker room, especially when Rondo was traded.
With the merry-go-around of head coaches from Darvin Ham to Frank Vogel ( 2020-2022) to Luke Walton (2017-2019) to Byron Scott (2015-2016) to Mike D'Antoni (2013-2014) to Mike Brown (2012-2013) since Phil Jackson (2006-2011). Then Frank Hamblen/Rudy Tomjanovich (2005) to Phil Jackson (2000-2004), in addition to the Jeannie/Jimmy Buss (Mitch Kupchak) soap opera with its ongoing dramatic roster moves - outside of Phil, there was no Laker Culture.
Hopefully with a stable FO and HC, Laker Culture can be rebuilt within a set system where role players can play freely because they know their responsibilities. As JVG said on the last broadcast, when there are no definitive roles, players have difficultities knowing their responsibilities hence have a daunting task of being efficient (i.e. Beasley, who has had a career of being a good shooter but failed miserably during the season/playoffs). It would have been great if Ham made it to the Finals, but the Nuggets (where Malone has been the HC for the Nuggets since 2015) have shown the value of continuity (along with the Heat). |
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lakerican
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Posts: 3793
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| Posted: Thu Jun 22, 2023 5:09 am Post subject: |
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| hype wrote: | | ocho wrote: | | XTC wrote: | | ocho wrote: |
Howard being effective against Jokic was a long time ago when they were both different players. I promise you that the 37 year old center of the Taoyuan Leopards was not going to stop Nikola Jokic in the year of our lord 2023. |
Agree, I don’t think Howard has much left in the tank and wouldn’t have been able to duplicate his 2020 effort vs Jokic.
Dwight Howard officially left Taiwan a few days ago and will be trying to make a comeback in the NBA. Best of luck, he will need it. |
I am genuinely alarmed every day at the short memories around here. It’s as if Dwight’s last season with us never happened. He was atrocious. The energetic bench spark guy from 2020 was gone. It’s like everyone only remembers people at their finest and assumes that’s who they’re getting. |
Yeah, it really is astounding at times here.. Howard is def. nowhere near the player we all watched in 2020 but even more importantly Jokic is SIGNIFICENTLY better then he was then as well and would have absolutely cooked 2023 Dwight. |
This.
We would have been swept in a much worse way with Vogel. People forgets the bubble was that, a bubble. NO HIGH ALTITUDE is Sunny Florida and no travel. Tell me, what Dwight was going to do with the The fast break stampede every time Jokic grabbed a rebound. Like ocho said, the last time Dwight played here, he played 15 mimutes, barely cross half court in the transition plays and then need 4 or 5 days rest because of knee swelling. Yeah, that DNPs was because Dwight could not go. |
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Halflife
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