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MJST
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 Posted: Sat Jul 08, 2023 9:00 am Post subject: Pelinka hints at Lakers going back to "two big" play moving AD back to the 4 |
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Michael Corvo
@michaelcorvoNBA
Rob Pelinka just mentioned on ESPN that the Lakers have had talks with Anthony Davis about going back to the two-big model they used with Dwight Howard/JaVale McGee. Pelinka said it was a big reason why Jaxson Hayes was signed
Thoughts?
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Inspector Gadget
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| Posted: Sat Jul 08, 2023 9:04 am Post subject: |
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| So who is the guy they want that fits the Dwight and McGee model? It certainly ain’t Wood, maybe Biyombo but I’m not sure |
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ocho
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| Posted: Sat Jul 08, 2023 9:11 am Post subject: |
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Playing AD alongside Javale/Dwight worked because both guys were elite rim protectors/defenders and LeBron and Davis could still shoot. Davis’ not great but decent 33% from 3 in the championship year has since cratered (19% in 22, 26% in 23.) LeBron’s mark was 35-36% the 3 years prior to last before lowering to 32% last year.
Trying to replicate this formula with just Jaxson Hayes, who hasn’t been good and got worse last year, doesn’t seem to be feasible. They say they’re looking for another C, but unless they’ve got some trade lined up (and most of their guys can’t get traded for a while) we are talking about Wood or Biyombo. We aren’t defending adequately with Christian Wood.
I tend to think of it less in terms of needing to start another C than having players who can fill situational roles when we need it. A stretch big would be nice as would a physical big with size that can body up and rebound. We don’t have either at the moment.
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MJST
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| Posted: Sat Jul 08, 2023 9:35 am Post subject: |
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3 of the 14 shots Davis would take in that Championshop year were 3s and he only made 1 of 3. The defense wasn't really worried about his three in our championship season, AD killed them from mid and from the inside which the majority of his offense came from. His mid range being so deadly also opened up the paint for other bigs to get easy looks.
Last season was his best and most efficient season for us with a Lakers uniform, it unfortunately didn't lead to a Championship. But AD was the best he'd ever been for us last year on both ends AND the most efficient.
If he brings that into next year at the 4 position I'd be very happy.
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DancingBarry
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| Posted: Sat Jul 08, 2023 10:11 am Post subject: |
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I’m sure they will experiment. LeBron is looking mostly like a PF these days defensively, so does that mean Hayes guards at the SF? Not likely. Seems you want to save AD from guarding Cs. So maybe the plan is for shotblocking behind Bron when he’s at SF. Offensively, we weren’t very successful with the Vando/AD combo with the poor spacing. Part of that was also Vando was not great in the dunker spot. Hayes improves that dunker spot threat. We also could run that with Dennis on the floor due to spacing, but now have a better mix of guard shooters. So maybe it’s more doable for stretches.
Ultimately this seems tough to pull off with the current roster. We need a floor spacing big. Currently that becomes Rui who we saw guard the C spot some with AD on the floor. I bet after the dust settles with experimentation that’s where we end up again. |
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Laker7
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| Posted: Sat Jul 08, 2023 10:25 am Post subject: |
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I look for Rui to play C like he did against the Nuggets in the WCF rather than Hayes start at C.
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Koalita
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| Posted: Sat Jul 08, 2023 1:50 pm Post subject: |
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I was thinking about the Eurobasket MVP who was cut by the Pelicans, but it seems he's going back to Europe.
It seems to me a lot of 5's are pushed out of the league because they are 5's and not unicorns |
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Dr. Laker
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| Posted: Sat Jul 08, 2023 1:56 pm Post subject: |
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| Koalita wrote: | I was thinking about the Eurobasket MVP who was cut by the Pelicans, but it seems he's going back to Europe.
It seems to me a lot of 5's are pushed out of the league because they are 5's and not unicorns |
Good point, but basketball is cyclical. Three of the last five champions were led by post players.
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lar9149
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| Posted: Sat Jul 08, 2023 2:08 pm Post subject: |
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| DancingBarry wrote: | I’m sure they will experiment. LeBron is looking mostly like a PF these days defensively, so does that mean Hayes guards at the SF? Not likely. Seems you want to save AD from guarding Cs. So maybe the plan is for shotblocking behind Bron when he’s at SF. Offensively, we weren’t very successful with the Vando/AD combo with the poor spacing. Part of that was also Vando was not great in the dunker spot. Hayes improves that dunker spot threat. We also could run that with Dennis on the floor due to spacing, but now have a better mix of guard shooters. So maybe it’s more doable for stretches.
Ultimately this seems tough to pull off with the current roster. We need a floor spacing big. Currently that becomes Rui who we saw guard the C spot some with AD on the floor. I bet after the dust settles with experimentation that’s where we end up again. |
Interesting. I had taught Hayes or AD would need to hit 3s to make this work. But considering Hayes, perhaps having him in the Dunker spot would work fine. If you put AD in the low post and he gets double teamed off Hayes, Hayes should burn many teams. I do remember Vando would try this but he just didn’t have the ability to finish at the rim to kill teams. The other team clogs the paint, DLo reeves LBJ should be able to make them pay.
Perhaps it could work even if AD or Hayes don’t hit 3s |
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mad55557777
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| Posted: Sat Jul 08, 2023 2:40 pm Post subject: |
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Lebron can no longer play the 3 on both ends
Ad’s mid range shots need to come back to 2020 level
We have a lot of athletic wings and they need minutes, and rebounding shouldn’t be an issue.
We don’t need the 2 big model in the playoffs except against Denver maybe. Even against Denver, we didn’t lose because of jokic, it was because Murray Bruce brown, KCP, Gordon had their way in the perimeter.
I am all for 2 big lineups in regular season for like 15-20 minutes a game when lebron is off court. AD at the center likely won’t change |
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MJST
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| Posted: Sat Jul 08, 2023 7:22 pm Post subject: |
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No matter if LeBron plays the 4 or 3 he'll be defending the weakest player on the other team's lineup so that doesn't matter.
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vasashi17+
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| Posted: Sat Jul 08, 2023 7:29 pm Post subject: |
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| DancingBarry wrote: | I’m sure they will experiment. LeBron is looking mostly like a PF these days defensively, so does that mean Hayes guards at the SF? Not likely. Seems you want to save AD from guarding Cs. So maybe the plan is for shotblocking behind Bron when he’s at SF. Offensively, we weren’t very successful with the Vando/AD combo with the poor spacing. Part of that was also Vando was not great in the dunker spot. Hayes improves that dunker spot threat. We also could run that with Dennis on the floor due to spacing, but now have a better mix of guard shooters. So maybe it’s more doable for stretches.
Ultimately this seems tough to pull off with the current roster. We need a floor spacing big. Currently that becomes Rui who we saw guard the C spot some with AD on the floor. I bet after the dust settles with experimentation that’s where we end up again. |
Great rebuttal to this narrative. I also think if AD comes out as a wing rover / weak side help defender, then dudes like Bron can be covered for during perimeter defensive duties. Im a huge proponent of getting AD out the paint to play defensive safety for us. Our D potential would be on crack. Anyways, Chief took the high road on this one…
Meanwhile, Rob has me saying, cool story bruh! How you expect a dude that got NO run with Zion out to get plenty of run with AD here? TF?!
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Kblo247!
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| Posted: Sat Jul 08, 2023 7:37 pm Post subject: |
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| vasashi17+ wrote: | | DancingBarry wrote: | I’m sure they will experiment. LeBron is looking mostly like a PF these days defensively, so does that mean Hayes guards at the SF? Not likely. Seems you want to save AD from guarding Cs. So maybe the plan is for shotblocking behind Bron when he’s at SF. Offensively, we weren’t very successful with the Vando/AD combo with the poor spacing. Part of that was also Vando was not great in the dunker spot. Hayes improves that dunker spot threat. We also could run that with Dennis on the floor due to spacing, but now have a better mix of guard shooters. So maybe it’s more doable for stretches.
Ultimately this seems tough to pull off with the current roster. We need a floor spacing big. Currently that becomes Rui who we saw guard the C spot some with AD on the floor. I bet after the dust settles with experimentation that’s where we end up again. |
Great rebuttal to this narrative. I also think if AD comes out as a wing rover / weak side help defender, then dudes like Bron can be covered for during perimeter defensive duties. Im a huge proponent of getting AD out the paint to play defensive safety for us. Our D potential would be on crack. Anyways, Chief took the high road on this one…
Meanwhile, Rob has me saying, cool story bruh! How you expect a dude that got NO run with Zion out to get plenty of run with AD here? TF?! |
JJ was very complimentary of Hayes and blamed coaching and talked about how he played the 5 his first year and then his second when they were teammates he came into camp having prepared to play 5 and the coaching staff said no we need you to be a stretch 4 this season and tried to break his game down and change things he did. He basically said he thought if Hayes played the style he did as a rookie he could fit in well with the team and compared him to Javale as a Wizard potential and athleticism wise. I mean he was in the pelicans locker room so he should have an idea of things.
AD made his jumpers in the playoffs
8-16 feet he hit 43.3%
16-24 feet he hit 55.6%
To break it down a bit more from 15-19 he hit 65%
He was a 80 plus percent free throw guy. And he shot 48% from mid range total. He had (bleep) all space with Denis, Vando, and Brons slump but he hit his jumpers left and right this postseason and after the all star break. |
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TheBlackMamba
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| Posted: Sat Jul 08, 2023 7:46 pm Post subject: |
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| Then why not keep Bamba around? Rob has made some solid moves, so I’m much more okay with him now than previous summers, but he tends to talk out of his ass at times when it comes to roster fit around Lebron/AD. At the end of the day, he’s had trouble finding the most obvious thing they both need around them, which is enough shooting. Reaves, Rui, and Christie have fortunately developed their outside shots to the point where, with Dlo, we should be okay. But it certainly hasn’t been a strength. |
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Nonamehero
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| Posted: Sat Jul 08, 2023 8:39 pm Post subject: |
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The league is more about length than size.
So you really need long wings to defend at highest level.
We don’t necessarily need a Dwight like center to win.
We just need to fill the court with long wings to win.
Since it is more about spacing and pace nowadays.
Not grind it out down low.
So Ham 3 guards lineup will forever cripple us.
We ideally we have Rui Lebron and another long wing play alongside AD.
And have Reaves be our full time point guard.
And use Russell to buy in as our 6th man who can get cooking off the bench.
But with Ham, that will never happen |
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LakersRGolden
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| Posted: Sat Jul 08, 2023 8:46 pm Post subject: |
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Really, they need to figure out what LBJ can give us. Is he going to be pre-pop LBJ or what we went into the playoffs with?
If LBJ is going to be what we got in the playoffs, we can't play him anywhere but PF on D and in the post. And he becomes the guy we scheme to hide on D due to first step push-off issues so playing DLo becomes harder.
If LBJ gets the foot right and all we have to compensate for is year 21 wear and tear, it opens up a lot of lineups.
Either way, the 2 big lineups will likely be LeBron rest lineups. |
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Palin
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| Posted: Sun Jul 09, 2023 12:44 am Post subject: |
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| vasashi17+ wrote: | | DancingBarry wrote: | I’m sure they will experiment. LeBron is looking mostly like a PF these days defensively, so does that mean Hayes guards at the SF? Not likely. Seems you want to save AD from guarding Cs. So maybe the plan is for shotblocking behind Bron when he’s at SF. Offensively, we weren’t very successful with the Vando/AD combo with the poor spacing. Part of that was also Vando was not great in the dunker spot. Hayes improves that dunker spot threat. We also could run that with Dennis on the floor due to spacing, but now have a better mix of guard shooters. So maybe it’s more doable for stretches.
Ultimately this seems tough to pull off with the current roster. We need a floor spacing big. Currently that becomes Rui who we saw guard the C spot some with AD on the floor. I bet after the dust settles with experimentation that’s where we end up again. |
Great rebuttal to this narrative. I also think if AD comes out as a wing rover / weak side help defender, then dudes like Bron can be covered for during perimeter defensive duties. Im a huge proponent of getting AD out the paint to play defensive safety for us. Our D potential would be on crack. Anyways, Chief took the high road on this one…
Meanwhile, Rob has me saying, cool story bruh! How you expect a dude that got NO run with Zion out to get plenty of run with AD here? TF?! |
Turner could have been perfect for that situation. At offense he can be the stretch big so Bron and AD operates more at paint while at D Turner and AD can cover for Bron's SF defensive weakness. |
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wolfpaclaker
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| Posted: Sun Jul 09, 2023 3:57 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | Playing AD alongside Javale/Dwight worked because both guys were elite rim protectors/defenders and LeBron and Davis could still shoot. Davis’ not great but decent 33% from 3 in the championship year has since cratered (19% in 22, 26% in 23.) LeBron’s mark was 35-36% the 3 years prior to last before lowering to 32% last year.
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It worked because the coach also schemed a few things to make it work.
1) Designed plays for the 5/C to get above the rim plays, and be a post sprinter. Making us set up our offense or get some quick scores. The idea was to get a stop through defense and have your 5 man be super quick to get post position on the other end.
2) #1 Only worked because he put the ball in what he described as the greatest NBA QB of all time (LBJ). So basically let Lebron run the show ala Magic, which Lebron led the league in assists. Lebron is also a good rebounder so if Bron is engaged defensively and active, you get a lot of those board and push the ball or transition plays with your 5s at the other end.
3) AD was extremely mobile at the F spot, willing to defend 3/4/5 throughout a game. We schemed a lot of stuff to maximize AD.
What is the downside of this is the offense stalls in the halfcourt. We all know and saw it. It becomes a lot of Bron ball. And AD taking turns. People seem to complain about all the guard heavy lineups, but the alternative is that the guard heavy lineups keep you from heavy Bron ball.
I find it funny that 3 years later, Pelinka is still looking at this. If he wanted to accomplish this, he shouldn't have made the roster changes he has over the years and certainly should have valued what the stretch 5 that can play some D can do. The last time we even had a remotely decent legit 5 was Marc Gasol in 2020-21. Each season we have resisted to invest in a quality starting level 5. Used scraps and vet mins.
Hayes may work out, I guess an argument can be made he's uber athletic and has upside not reached at 23. There's the whole "Rui" argument for him that maybe Pelinka grabbed him just at the right time in his career. We'll see. I just feel that it is often overlooked. McGee and Dwight didn't do anything of significance after that season. With reason. The coach and system we had, especially with Lebron at the PG on offense, is what made that all work and come together. To make this work, you can't run anyone but Lebron on the ball. You want Lebron on the ball, creating, taking him off the "shooter" role. Instead, what has happened is we've since the title in 2020, taken Lebron into a much more off the ball role. This was by design. They wanted to shift Lebron into this scoring role.
You want to get back to the 2 big model, the #1 thing that needs to happen is scheme changes on both ends. And for those schemes to work someone needs to get Lebron to buy into that. #2 you need to attain an actual starting worthy big that can fit in (Ideally with some range to shoot). |
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wolfpaclaker
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| Posted: Sun Jul 09, 2023 4:07 am Post subject: |
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| Palin wrote: | | vasashi17+ wrote: | | DancingBarry wrote: | I’m sure they will experiment. LeBron is looking mostly like a PF these days defensively, so does that mean Hayes guards at the SF? Not likely. Seems you want to save AD from guarding Cs. So maybe the plan is for shotblocking behind Bron when he’s at SF. Offensively, we weren’t very successful with the Vando/AD combo with the poor spacing. Part of that was also Vando was not great in the dunker spot. Hayes improves that dunker spot threat. We also could run that with Dennis on the floor due to spacing, but now have a better mix of guard shooters. So maybe it’s more doable for stretches.
Ultimately this seems tough to pull off with the current roster. We need a floor spacing big. Currently that becomes Rui who we saw guard the C spot some with AD on the floor. I bet after the dust settles with experimentation that’s where we end up again. |
Great rebuttal to this narrative. I also think if AD comes out as a wing rover / weak side help defender, then dudes like Bron can be covered for during perimeter defensive duties. Im a huge proponent of getting AD out the paint to play defensive safety for us. Our D potential would be on crack. Anyways, Chief took the high road on this one…
Meanwhile, Rob has me saying, cool story bruh! How you expect a dude that got NO run with Zion out to get plenty of run with AD here? TF?! |
Turner could have been perfect for that situation. At offense he can be the stretch big so Bron and AD operates more at paint while at D Turner and AD can cover for Bron's SF defensive weakness. |
I feel the best shot they had with Turner was a year ago. Indiana seems to want to win now according to Haliburton, they want to be a playoff team. Can't see them have been interested in Turner deals. Turner/Brown/Hield/Haliburton probably Indiana feels they can make the play ins or playoffs.
The options this year seem to have been BroLo or Porzingis. BroLo - that means you would need to get under the cap and let Rui, DLO etc go. BroLO is not worth that, and a team of BroLo/AD/Bron/Reaves is not enough probably. The other option was to get Porzingis, using Bamba/Beasley and first round pick. That's the sort of investment we needed to make to get this to work and it was probably available if the Lakers were willing to make the financial investment. Could have kept Rui, DLO, Reaves but no Gabe and be in the lux tax. We also have to be willing to (and convince) Lebron that he needs to go back to an on the ball role more on offense. I just don't see why they're trying to sell us on this, when we all know coach Ham will use Rui, Vandy or play Gabe/Reaves/DLO in a 3 guard lineup with AD/Bron instead of this. There's no way coach Ham will do what Pelinka is suggesting for any significant period of time. |
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defense
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| Posted: Sun Jul 09, 2023 4:59 am Post subject: |
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| With what bigs? Or biggest players right now are legramps and Davis |
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governator
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| Posted: Sun Jul 09, 2023 5:53 am Post subject: |
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| Nurkic? For DLo? When can it happen? DLo+Vando for under tax/maybe get picks? |
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