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JM
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Joined: 25 Jun 2005
Posts: 1281
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 Posted: Sat Nov 24, 2007 7:27 am Post subject: |
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| Jeffs wrote: | I think this is the first DB Recap that I wasn't look forward to in a very, very long time. 
I just wish that I could forget this game and stop discussing it with everyone else here. Bleh, I wish I wasn't so addicted to LG!
Still though, it's nice that with all the inconsistencies of this young Laker squad, we can still count on DB having his recap up after each game. Thanks again, DB!  |
ditto. |
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targetman
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Joined: 04 Sep 2004
Posts: 5503
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| Posted: Sat Nov 24, 2007 7:35 am Post subject: |
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Maybe we are shopping Lamar again and it's messing with his head. That would be an excuse that would make sense. Otherwise, why put your lack of effort on display for the world to see, you've used up all your other excuses.
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Rick12322
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Joined: 27 Jun 2005
Posts: 19164
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| Posted: Sat Nov 24, 2007 7:37 am Post subject: |
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| Mr. EiGhTy-OnE wrote: | | im not too discouraged by the loss. im still mad about losing to the bucks. if we cant knock off the teams we are suppose to, we are going NOWHERE fast. i am discouraged by phil though. that lineup of farmar, sasha,vlad, luke, bynum killed us to start the 2nd qtr. who did he expect to guard Pierce? Also, his reluctance to play younger players is getting old too? why trade for Ariza if he's not going to use him. He could have at least put him in for 10 minutes, for defensive purposes at the least. He couldnt have done any worse than L.O. |
I wanted him to play Trevor too but I can see why he didn't. We already have LO out there in a complicated system not knowing his role. When 1/5th of your system is operating improperly, it confuses the other 4/5ths and leads to a de-generation of functioning properly. Now add the new guy, and before you know it the team has lost it's two reference points. All the hard work the teams done to learn "the system" is quickly forgotten and we end up with chaos. |
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expertla
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Joined: 20 Sep 2004
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| Posted: Sat Nov 24, 2007 7:49 am Post subject: |
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Thanks again DB. I wish Lamar was half as consistant (in a positive way) as you are.
On a positive note, I love the way we tried to establish Bynum in the low post. This is really the 1st time the team has really made it a point to go to him. Although he didn't deliver this time, I hope Phil stays with it. |
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kobe_somebody_odom
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Joined: 02 Feb 2006
Posts: 1661
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| Posted: Sat Nov 24, 2007 9:25 am Post subject: |
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Wow, dispite Bynum playing poorly he was still only a -1
Mihm on the other hand was a -19.
Mihm is killing us. IF Bynum plays 35 minutes, I think we could have won this game dispite Odom.
But maybe its time to change this lineup a little. With Bynum starting, start Farmar
Farmar / Fisher
Bryant / Sasha
Walton / Odom
Vlad / Odom
Bynum / Turiaf
rotate Vlad, Walton, Odom pretty equally over the 96 minutes. And Mihm is terrible right now. Odom should be demoted to the bench and Mihm to the IR.
Phil is the least creative guy Ive ever seen when it comes to lineups. He needs to stop being stubborn and make changes when necessary. |
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Klone_dd
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Joined: 11 Mar 2002
Posts: 7330
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| Posted: Sat Nov 24, 2007 9:27 am Post subject: |
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I think moving LO to the 3, even though everyone claims it's his "natural position," has been a detriment to the team. He's essentially been playing the 4 for the last 4 years. Now at the 3 he hasn't found his comfort zone, where to be, where to get his shots, even defensively, he's not in correct position.
It still pains me to see KG in green. 
Don't care about PP or Ray Ray, but I've always liked for KG to win a ring, until now. |
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And 1
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Joined: 12 Apr 2001
Posts: 2586
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| Posted: Sat Nov 24, 2007 9:45 am Post subject: |
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| LakerSanity wrote: | I mean LO has played the invisible man before and done it well. For long stretches of games in a row? Not as often. But to not just be invisible, but to actually harm the team with a lack of rebounding (which has never been a problem before), TOs, and even worse D than ever before? I just have never seen LO play this poorly for this long of a stretch as a Laker before.
I am beginning to wonder if LO's motivation to play basketball and his GENERAL skill level have BOTH disgressed. First time in LO's career as a Laker, that even if we don't have success because of him, any success we have now is coming IN SPITE of him. I had low expectations for him, but I never saw this coming. A player of LO's talent scoring only 4 points in 31 minutes, following a performance where he called himself "a bum." No wonder the man is ashamed of himself, I would be too. |
Being one of Lamar's biggest...um, how can I put this? - "proponents," I'm a little surprised that you haven't figured out what's going on here.
Even though I'm one of Lamar's biggest critics on this board, even I realize that he's not this bad. But you're wrong in a sense. Lamar typically does play this poorly for a significant stretch of games on a yearly basis. It happened last season, but his proponents blamed it on him needing 20 games to find his MOJO after coming back from a knee injury that didn't require surgery. It happened the year before last as well. But back then his proponents indicated that he still didn't know the offense. No matter the excuse - there always is one when it comes to Lamar.
What I've come to realize, though, is that these stretches of inexcusable poor play typically occur in and around the trade deadline. It's clear to me that, although Lamar has the Laker organization (and a select corp of hardcore posters on this board) thoroughly convinced that he's gonna be a superstar, his fragile mentality allows him to dwell on the prospect of being traded. Now for some players, the prospect of getting traded from a place that they like causes them to bust their tail. With Lamar, it's the complete opposite. He unintentionally tanks.
I know...I know. We're nowhere near the trade deadline. How can LO be depressed so early into the season?
ANSWER: Because trades can still happen well before the deadline as we saw with the Ariza deal.
And trust me, Odom took note of the fact that the organization dealt away it's primary back-ups at SG and PF for a fourth SF.
Lamar is rattled right now and this is resulting in his pathetic play. Fortunately, I think that he'll get through this soon and be back to his regular mediocre self.
That is, until the trade deadline come up. |
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wolfpaclaker
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Joined: 29 May 2002
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| Posted: Sat Nov 24, 2007 9:57 am Post subject: |
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The Lakers got their butt handed to them, couldn't buy a shot and while they defended the big 3 well - they let Boston's scrubs beat them badly.
They can play a lot better.
Not suprised the focus is on Lamar. He is almost always single handidly blamed for losses, now it's happening in DB's threads too. He stinks right now, but it's kinda like 2 years ago when Phil wanted LO to figure it out on his own and wouldn't set up plays for him. Phil wants LO to read and react, get his chances that way. LO is more of an on the ball player, always has been the type of guy who likes to get the ball and operate that way. Operating off the ball is probably Lamar's weakest aspect and now they are forcing him to play that way. I actually like it. It'll make Lamar a better player in the longrun, if he figures out how to move off the ball.
Rule number 1, cut into the post as much as possible !
Anyway, we have 3 straight at home, I look forward to us winning 2/3. |
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DK
Star Player
Joined: 03 Jul 2006
Posts: 1627
Location: San Diego
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| Posted: Sat Nov 24, 2007 10:51 am Post subject: |
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| wolfpaclaker wrote: | The Lakers got their butt handed to them, couldn't buy a shot and while they defended the big 3 well - they let Boston's scrubs beat them badly.
They can play a lot better.
Not suprised the focus is on Lamar. He is almost always single handidly blamed for losses, now it's happening in DB's threads too. He stinks right now, but it's kinda like 2 years ago when Phil wanted LO to figure it out on his own and wouldn't set up plays for him. Phil wants LO to read and react, get his chances that way. LO is more of an on the ball player, always has been the type of guy who likes to get the ball and operate that way. Operating off the ball is probably Lamar's weakest aspect and now they are forcing him to play that way. I actually like it. It'll make Lamar a better player in the longrun, if he figures out how to move off the ball.
Rule number 1, cut into the post as much as possible !
Anyway, we have 3 straight at home, I look forward to us winning 2/3. |
This is his 4th year as a Laker. If he hasn't figured it out yet, there's no hope. I'm not even an Odom hater, I just think that he's not the right fit and never will be here. He needs to find a place where he'll fit, and we need a player that will work for us. |
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wolfpaclaker
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| Posted: Sat Nov 24, 2007 10:59 am Post subject: |
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| fifth_rune wrote: | | wolfpaclaker wrote: | The Lakers got their butt handed to them, couldn't buy a shot and while they defended the big 3 well - they let Boston's scrubs beat them badly.
They can play a lot better.
Not suprised the focus is on Lamar. He is almost always single handidly blamed for losses, now it's happening in DB's threads too. He stinks right now, but it's kinda like 2 years ago when Phil wanted LO to figure it out on his own and wouldn't set up plays for him. Phil wants LO to read and react, get his chances that way. LO is more of an on the ball player, always has been the type of guy who likes to get the ball and operate that way. Operating off the ball is probably Lamar's weakest aspect and now they are forcing him to play that way. I actually like it. It'll make Lamar a better player in the longrun, if he figures out how to move off the ball.
Rule number 1, cut into the post as much as possible !
Anyway, we have 3 straight at home, I look forward to us winning 2/3. |
This is his 4th year as a Laker. If he hasn't figured it out yet, there's no hope. I'm not even an Odom hater, I just think that he's not the right fit and never will be here. He needs to find a place where he'll fit, and we need a player that will work for us. |
It's not his 4th year in this role, it's his first. Infact, Kobe when given the original role of being a lead guard pouted all through training camp and stank. The fact is some of these guys don't always get the role they are in right away.
What did Phil do for Kobe? He changed the role on opening night, back to him being more of a 2 guard. Fish took over the lead guard duties as did Farmar off the bench.
Then you have a situation here with Lamar, no patience or adjustment. I don't think it's as simple as most are making it out to be. If it were the exact same situation as a year ago, Odom would have atleast known his role on the team. Right now, Jackson has clearly stated Odom is struggling in finding his place and adjusting to the new role.
So again, it's not like he's been playing SF for us for 4 years. This is his 1st year playing SF in the Triangle.
05-06: Was essentially the PG to start off, late on in the season moved to PF.
06-07: Started off in the role he closed the previous season in (PF) and did great.
07-08: Phil moves Turiaf to PF, Odom to SF to improve defense + balance out the roster. Now Odom's going to have to get used to a new role again. Tell me who was the SF last season? It wasn't Odom. The SF position has never been dominated in the Triangle by Odom. This is the first season they are really trying to get him playing that spot. He may have started at SF 2 years ago, but in actuality he was playing more of what Fisher plays right now - the PG/SG role.
I challenge you to find any player on the Lakers team in Phil's tenure that has been moved around position to position, to adjust the rosters needs like Odom has the last 2 years. He has not once complained or whined or pouted about it. He is going through a low confidence thing right now, trying to find himself in this new role. Instead of bashing him, I prefer to support him since his success = Lakers success.
He'll find his way. Lamar is going to make it happen. It'll be frustrating while he goes through the process of finding that role (like now) but eventually when he gets it in this new spot, the Lakers will be a better team for it. |
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LakerSanity
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| Posted: Sat Nov 24, 2007 12:02 pm Post subject: |
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^Wolf, I am not blaming him for the loss. It's just I have NEVER seen him play this badly for a string of games like he has now. I get he is adjusting and that is why I said I'd wait till December to really start looking at him closely, but no matter who you are, you should be a bit surprised by how poorly he has played. Never have I seen him this bad before. He's a professional, he's been in the triangle going onto his 3rd year now (albeit switching positions), but this isn't Kwame, this is our #2 player and the standard should be a bit higher for him. 4/5/2 in 31 minutes following 8/7/4 in almost 40 minutes plus terrible defense from a guy of LO's talent.. I don't care if he is adjusting, his talent alone should do better than that adjustment or not.
As And1 put it, I am one of his "proponents," and even I see this...although I don't agree that he was always like this or was always useless as some would say. I would be fine to have him back at the 16/10/4 mark.
| And 1 wrote: | | But you're wrong in a sense. Lamar typically does play this poorly for a significant stretch of games on a yearly basis. It happened last season, but his proponents blamed it on him needing 20 games to find his MOJO after coming back from a knee injury that didn't require surgery. It happened the year before last as well. But back then his proponents indicated that he still didn't know the offense. |
I remember those time periods well and when I say LO has never played this poorly, I included those time periods. LO has hit a new "low," so much so that is has surprised me, one of what you call his so-called "proponents." I still have some faith he can turn it around and adapt. This year we actually don't even need as much from him as we did the last few years, if he just came out as his normal self that would be enough, but to come out like he has now actually harms the team. I think this is the first time I could ever say that Lamar has not only NOT contributed positives on the floor, but actually been a negative. I know you say it was always like that, but I just disagree.
Anyways, lets just all hope LO turns it around and finds himself again. He's a good guy, but regardless we also need him to if we are to be an upper echelon team. Aside from LO, I think we'll bounce back from this road trip and play fine. I was fine with the Boston loss, disappointed a bit with the Milwaukee loss. At this point, I expected our record to be 7-5, so really I can't complain. I think we'll get better as the season goes along and I am gaining more and more confidence that, so long as we stay healthy, we'll be a 50+ win team.
BTW DB, I never gave you props for another wonderful write up... good or bad, you are always there with your consistent high standards of evaluation. 
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Freakout
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Location: WV
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| Posted: Sat Nov 24, 2007 12:43 pm Post subject: |
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| Too many excuses. Playing basketball isn't rocket science. Lamar simply is not that good. I'm not going to believe that switching positions suddenly causes him to miss layups and and forget how to shoot. That stuff falls squarely on his shoulders. |
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Bic
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| Posted: Sat Nov 24, 2007 12:54 pm Post subject: |
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I AM A SUPPORTER OF LO...I feel he has POTENTIAL to be our 2nd go to player (which he has not shown), BUT Lamar does not play with heart and that desire to overcome (on the court atleast, he has been through alot), And without heart or desire potential is a nothing.
I just have not seen his heart. 4 points in 30 something minutes? Horrible defense. He looks like a scared kid at the basketball courts, thats just playing because there wasnt enough players without him.
At least when kobe was awful on offense, we all saw a defensive spectacle.........which helped the team, thats what we should be looking foward to when our second in leadership is off offensively...give us something, Anything.
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Andre2K
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| Posted: Sat Nov 24, 2007 1:14 pm Post subject: |
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like I said before, Lamar is a cancer on this team. Trade him now before the whole team gets infected.
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Bench: Caruso, Hart, Bullock, Kuzma, McGee etc  |
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KOBE 2.0
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| Posted: Sat Nov 24, 2007 2:24 pm Post subject: |
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^ Agreed, the Lakers shouldn't sit on there behinds and wait for Odom to come around its been 3 years already they shouldn't treat Odom like a princess just because his son died that happens you deal with it.
NBA is a business and right now Odom has no business being part of this team. |
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wolfpaclaker
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| Posted: Sat Nov 24, 2007 2:32 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | Wolf, I am not blaming him for the loss. It's just I have NEVER seen him play this badly for a string of games like he has now. I get he is adjusting and that is why I said I'd wait till December to really start looking at him closely, but no matter who you are, you should be a bit surprised by how poorly he has played. Never have I seen him this bad before. He's a professional, he's been in the triangle going onto his 3rd year now (albeit switching positions), but this isn't Kwame, this is our #2 player and the standard should be a bit higher for him. 4/5/2 in 31 minutes following 8/7/4 in almost 40 minutes plus terrible defense from a guy of LO's talent.. I don't care if he is adjusting, his talent alone should do better than that adjustment or not. |
I have seen him struggle this much, it was about 2 years ago - he was having a very hard time figuring out how to play in the Triangle. He had no problems bringing the ball up and starting the offense, he had a lot of problems moving after the offense had started. And like at that point, his jumper was way off because of the surgery/lack of offseason practice and this made him look even worse. What eventually happened is that his off the ball movement got better, as did his jumper. Right now both are pretty poor. He's never been a great jump shooter, but he can be a lot better than he is right now. He's also never been good at moving without the ball, but again he can be better.
No doubt Odom is playing like bad. I am the first one to acknowledge that. But I do believe that it has more to do with things that can be solved, rather than something that can not be and be deemed "This is what you'll get".
| Quote: | | Too many excuses. Playing basketball isn't rocket science. Lamar simply is not that good. I'm not going to believe that switching positions suddenly causes him to miss layups and and forget how to shoot. That stuff falls squarely on his shoulders. |
I agree.
Question. Is Lamar even getting 1 or 2 easy baskets set up for him? Nope. Why? The lack of a PG playing with him. Plus, Odom is coming of surgery. That is why his jumper is so bad as well as the timing totally off on the layups.
I am not making excuses just to make excuses. The bad play must stop ASAP, but I can not just ignore that there are some valid reasons that he is playing this bad. And not the "he sucks" kind. I am just trying to elaborate a bit on what I feel is the reason(s) Odom is playing like he is right now.
Last edited by wolfpaclaker on Sat Nov 24, 2007 2:35 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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KOBE 2.0
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Location: Los Angeles, California
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| Posted: Sat Nov 24, 2007 2:35 pm Post subject: |
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| wolfpaclaker wrote: | | No doubt Odom is playing like bad. |
The thing is hes been playing bad the moment he came here. yes hes had stretches of playing good but hes had more downs then ups and you know thats true wolf.
you know hes eventually gonna be gone soon if this tread continues or hes already gone anyways. |
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Mation
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| Posted: Sat Nov 24, 2007 2:38 pm Post subject: |
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Thanks for the solid effort in writing up a tough loss like this, DB.
Good to see Vlad near the 20-point mark again. "Stupid touch foul under the hoop when should have conceded the dunk instead of giving up the And-1." He's really got to foul with the intention of preventing the basket.
Just when Odom talks about the winning record and Kobe's trade demands, he contributes heavily to these two losses. Phil talks about solving this problem immediately and that should happen; either by him, a teammate, or one of the coaching staff.
Looking forward to Ariza's first game-time-minutes with the team. Bring that added defense to your position. |
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DancingBarry
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| Posted: Sat Nov 24, 2007 2:43 pm Post subject: |
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| hoopschick29 wrote: | | When Lamar gets hurt, it's like he forgets how to play basketball. It's literally like he's starting all over again from scratch. |
Yep. He has a tough time engaging in this offense, like I've said. It takes him a while to "think" the game in the Tri because it doesn't come natural to him. So, it is like he has to have his hand held to lead him back into seeing it again. It's happened a lot after his injuries and the coaches, IMO, need to be more proactive in getting him in gear. |
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DancingBarry
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| Posted: Sat Nov 24, 2007 2:44 pm Post subject: |
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| Sage_10 wrote: | | In retrospect, I'm glad the game wasn't televised. |
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KOBE 2.0
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Joined: 14 Mar 2004
Posts: 15287
Location: Los Angeles, California
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| Posted: Sat Nov 24, 2007 2:46 pm Post subject: |
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| DancingBarry wrote: | | Yep. He has a tough time engaging in this offense, like I've said. It takes him a while to "think" the game in the Tri because it doesn't come natural to him. So, it is like he has to have his hand held to lead him back into seeing it again. It's happened a lot after his injuries and the coaches, IMO, need to be more proactive in getting him in gear. |
He's been here for 3 years its still tough for him to engage the offense? man how slow does his brain work?  |
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DancingBarry
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| Posted: Sat Nov 24, 2007 2:47 pm Post subject: |
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| kobe_somebody_odom wrote: | Wow, dispite Bynum playing poorly he was still only a -1
Mihm on the other hand was a -19.
Mihm is killing us. IF Bynum plays 35 minutes, I think we could have won this game dispite Odom.
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I don't know if we would have won, but there is a pretty big drop off when he's not in the game right now. Too bad he got into foul trouble. |
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DancingBarry
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| Posted: Sat Nov 24, 2007 2:53 pm Post subject: |
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| wolfpaclaker wrote: |
Not suprised the focus is on Lamar. He is almost always single handidly blamed for losses, now it's happening in DB's threads too. He stinks right now, but it's kinda like 2 years ago when Phil wanted LO to figure it out on his own and wouldn't set up plays for him. Phil wants LO to read and react, get his chances that way. LO is more of an on the ball player, always has been the type of guy who likes to get the ball and operate that way. Operating off the ball is probably Lamar's weakest aspect and now they are forcing him to play that way. I actually like it. It'll make Lamar a better player in the longrun, if he figures out how to move off the ball.
Rule number 1, cut into the post as much as possible !
Anyway, we have 3 straight at home, I look forward to us winning 2/3. |
Both LO and Phil are to blame, IMO. Phil because Lamar needs more hands on help in getting his focus within the Tri... and Lamar because he needs more hands on help in getting his focus within the Tri.
LO will get a big, a huge, part of the blame, though, when he's our second veteran impact player and he gives us 4 points on the road. You need that vet impact player -- no, you depend on that player -- to be one of the few who won't disappear on the road. |
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DancingBarry
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| Posted: Sat Nov 24, 2007 3:01 pm Post subject: |
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| Sniper008 wrote: | | like I said before, Lamar is a cancer on this team. Trade him now before the whole team gets infected. |
Lamar's not a cancer. He may be a square peg in a round hole at times or not the scorer that everyone, including the coaches wants him to be, but he's not a cancer. |
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KOBE 2.0
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| Posted: Sat Nov 24, 2007 3:04 pm Post subject: |
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DB, you have a point however I think a lot of people can agree that someone who doesn't bring it night in and night out has a affect on this team which can be used for the term "cancer" because hes not helping us hes hurting us.
and Odom only loves to do that he hurts this team with his play. |
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