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DancingBarry
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Joined: 07 Sep 2001
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Location: O.C.

Posted: Sat Nov 24, 2007 3:06 pm Post subject:

Mation wrote:

Looking forward to Ariza's first game-time-minutes with the team. Bring that added defense to your position.

It will likely be a little clunky at first...but I can't wait to see him. Always nice to have something new to look at...and imagine how he might work with all our other pieces.

hoopschick29
Franchise Player

Joined: 23 Jul 2004
Posts: 12898
Location: Los Angeles

Posted: Sat Nov 24, 2007 3:07 pm Post subject:

DancingBarry wrote:

wolfpaclaker wrote:

Not suprised the focus is on Lamar. He is almost always single handidly blamed for losses, now it's happening in DB's threads too. He stinks right now, but it's kinda like 2 years ago when Phil wanted LO to figure it out on his own and wouldn't set up plays for him. Phil wants LO to read and react, get his chances that way. LO is more of an on the ball player, always has been the type of guy who likes to get the ball and operate that way. Operating off the ball is probably Lamar's weakest aspect and now they are forcing him to play that way. I actually like it. It'll make Lamar a better player in the longrun, if he figures out how to move off the ball.

Rule number 1, cut into the post as much as possible !

Anyway, we have 3 straight at home, I look forward to us winning 2/3.

Both LO and Phil are to blame, IMO. Phil because Lamar needs more hands on help in getting his focus within the Tri... and Lamar because he needs more hands on help in getting his focus within the Tri.

LO will get a big, a huge, part of the blame, though, when he's our second veteran impact player and he gives us 4 points on the road. You need that vet impact player -- no, you depend on that player -- to be one of the few who won't disappear on the road.

We have a team full of kids. If Lamar, as veteran, needs that much handholding, then he's a detriment to our team. We got too many youngsters that need the hands on.
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DancingBarry
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Posted: Sat Nov 24, 2007 3:11 pm Post subject:

KOBE 2.0 wrote:

DB, you have a point however I think a lot of people can agree that someone who doesn't bring it night in and night out has a affect on this team which can be used for the term "cancer" because hes not helping us hes hurting us.

Sorry. That's not a cancer in my book.

Quote:

and Odom only loves to do that he hurts this team with his play.

401 Error. I do not have the means to access this sentence. Please restate.

KOBE 2.0
Franchise Player

Joined: 14 Mar 2004
Posts: 15287
Location: Los Angeles, California

Posted: Sat Nov 24, 2007 3:13 pm Post subject:

Lamar Odom basically hurts the team as a whole with his play.

DancingBarry
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Joined: 07 Sep 2001
Posts: 40207
Location: O.C.

Posted: Sat Nov 24, 2007 3:25 pm Post subject:

If he does that maliciously and with intent to play like crap ... then I'd agree that's a cancer. I don't agree he purposely does that as you might be suggesting.

A Mad Chinaman
Star Player

Joined: 07 Apr 2005
Posts: 6157

Posted: Sat Nov 24, 2007 3:28 pm Post subject:

DancingBarry wrote:

wolfpaclaker wrote:

Not suprised the focus is on Lamar. He is almost always single handidly blamed for losses, now it's happening in DB's threads too. He stinks right now, but it's kinda like 2 years ago when Phil wanted LO to figure it out on his own and wouldn't set up plays for him. Phil wants LO to read and react, get his chances that way. LO is more of an on the ball player, always has been the type of guy who likes to get the ball and operate that way. Operating off the ball is probably Lamar's weakest aspect and now they are forcing him to play that way. I actually like it. It'll make Lamar a better player in the longrun, if he figures out how to move off the ball.
Rule number 1, cut into the post as much as possible !
Anyway, we have 3 straight at home, I look forward to us winning 2/3.

DB - With team acknowledging that Farmar can be an effective ballhawk, what do you think Jordan needs to do to continue to be effective?

I forgot who stated this "And trust me, Odom took note of the fact that the organization dealt away it's primary back-ups at SG and PF for a fourth SF" - but Cookie is a primary back-up at PF?!?!?!?!?! Mo had more impact, though his Hot Mo/Cold Mo was very frustrating - even when he was healthy. With Crit having a lot of talent and Mo in his contract year, easy and logical decision. If LO is affected by a small trade, can he be this fragile mentally? If so, how will he be able to handle serious playoff pressure?

With Kwame injuried and Mihm is M.I.A., the Lakers' "Three-Headed" Monster (?!?!?!) @ "5" does not exist. Imagine the troubles that KG would have with Kwame guarding him - he wouldn't be able to consistently get his low post position and he would be facing a defender who is just as quick as he is. Of course, on the other end KG would be able to roam since Kwame can't catch a beach ball thrown at his head or hands or stomach.

IF PJ has stated (I believe) that LO is one of the smartest player around and he's been watching how the team has been playing, it is interesting to see how his entire game has deteriated. I agree with PJ allowing LO to find his place since he treats his veterans as veterans that have the ability to figure things out - the best option in the long run. He has already shown that he has a short lease on the younger players.

As previously stated, the key things is how they played in the 4th quarter of the Bucks game. The Celtics would gonna be pumped and rested for this game. In the end, the Lakers were broke even (no Brokeback Mountain jokes here) during this road trip - to the best of my knowledge - and they learn (hopefully) some things. 1) If you can play an effective 3 quarters, remember there are 4 quarters; 2) Kwame's defensive abilities are needed; Turiaff needs to get healthy and: 4) Lakers can be competitive, now the trick is to consistently provide effort and defense to start winning against the elite teams consistently

A Mad Chinaman
Star Player

Joined: 07 Apr 2005
Posts: 6157

Posted: Sat Nov 24, 2007 3:40 pm Post subject:

KOBE 2.0 wrote:

and Odom only loves to do that he hurts this team with his play.

Does your opinion of LO effect your views on the Lakers winning on the road - remembering your previous comments.

IMO - the Lakers are still learning how to win and PJ is providing them the challenge to learn how to play/think/adjust/react/etc. on the court, instead of being a Jeff Gundy-type team that is micro-managed from the sidelines. (Jeff Gundy is a good coach, just don't like his style)

btw: Luke was the/a passer in The Triangle - the same role that LO is trying to fulfill. With LO's confusion, it appears that the spacing on the offensive side of the ball was bad. Could this be one of the reasons why they were chucking up 3pointers - cuz the offense got stucked When one observes the elite teams (i.e. Spurs/Suns), they might not always make their shots but they always have good spacing that provides the best opportunities to make shots that are not consistently highly contested.

KOBE 2.0
Franchise Player

Joined: 14 Mar 2004
Posts: 15287
Location: Los Angeles, California

Posted: Sat Nov 24, 2007 3:44 pm Post subject:

The team might be Learning Chinaman but that doesn't mean Odom should play like the way he is.

DancingBarry
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Posts: 40207
Location: O.C.

Posted: Sat Nov 24, 2007 3:53 pm Post subject:

A Mad Chinaman wrote:

IMO - the Lakers are still learning how to win and PJ is providing them the challenge to learn how to play/think/adjust/react/etc. on the court, instead of being a Jeff Gundy-type team that is micro-managed from the sidelines. (Jeff Gundy is a good coach, just don't like his style)

I think that's the way to go...but you also have to micro-manage certain players. Rookies. Guys like LO who this offense and his new position doesn't come easily to him like a player such as Luke, as you mentioned, who can function with ease in all positions. Like I said, you need to jumpstart his thinking by running a few sequences for him. Get him to see the floor and where and how he should get into the post or work the weakside, etc.

And 1
Star Player

Joined: 12 Apr 2001
Posts: 2586

Posted: Sat Nov 24, 2007 4:52 pm Post subject:

A Mad Chinaman wrote:

DancingBarry wrote:

wolfpaclaker wrote:

Not suprised the focus is on Lamar. He is almost always single handidly blamed for losses, now it's happening in DB's threads too. He stinks right now, but it's kinda like 2 years ago when Phil wanted LO to figure it out on his own and wouldn't set up plays for him. Phil wants LO to read and react, get his chances that way. LO is more of an on the ball player, always has been the type of guy who likes to get the ball and operate that way. Operating off the ball is probably Lamar's weakest aspect and now they are forcing him to play that way. I actually like it. It'll make Lamar a better player in the longrun, if he figures out how to move off the ball.
Rule number 1, cut into the post as much as possible !
Anyway, we have 3 straight at home, I look forward to us winning 2/3.

I'm the one who made that comment and I stand behind it 100%. When you stop to think about it, I'm sure that you'd agree. Now don't get it twisted. Brian Cook IS NOT a primary back-up PF in this league. But due to the continuous injury concerns of our bigs (not to mention a general lack of talent on the team), Brian Cook was this organization's primary back-up PF. You need only look back to a week-and-a-half ago to see that he was starting when Turiaf went down with an ankle injury.

With Kwame barricaded in the trainer's room once again, we are thin up front. What? You think that Mihm is gonna last for the season?

Crit may have some talent, but he's not playing. Even if he were, those minutes aren't going to come at PG (where Farmar and Fish are holdin' it down) or SG (where Kobe is required to play 40+ minutes per). At a solid 220 lbs, Mo Evans had the ability to match-up against SF's who can post up and do damage (like Bonzi Wells, Paul Pierce, and Melo). Do you think that Critt can do this at 195 lbs? I don't. Sasha?

Look, I don't have a problem with the Ariza deal. The Lakers chances for success were never going to ride on either Cookie or Evans.

But the fact that they acquired another SF (who I don't believe is the defensive force the organization is touting him to be) tells me that they're trying to add depth to a position they're already stacked at.

In looking at it, I think can forsee one of two things happening:

A) Phil plans on moving Odom back to PF; or,

B) the organization will look to move one (or more) of their SF's (and probably Kwame) later on in the season.

Now I don't know about you, but I think that Turiaf is playing at the PF position. I'm not sure that anyone wants to mess with this situation.

This leaves Option B and I'm sure that Odom, Walton, and Radmanovic are aware of it.

And yes, I believe that Odom would be bothered by this.

prisma8slg
Star Player

Joined: 02 Jul 2005
Posts: 4664
Location: Michigan

Posted: Sat Nov 24, 2007 5:06 pm Post subject:

thanks DB. _________________ "I define success by championships, by winning..." Kobe Bryant "I've seen it all. Sasha dunked on somebody," Kobe Bryant said. "I'm ready to retire now."

hi_ma
Star Player

Joined: 28 Jan 2007
Posts: 7952
Location: watching Kobe /Pau duo.

Posted: Sat Nov 24, 2007 5:11 pm Post subject:

And 1 wrote:

And yes, I believe that Odom would be bothered by this.

I said this in another thread. He has always been affected by trade talks and usually picks up his game after the trade deadline. He is weak like that which is kind of a shock. This is his 3rd team. Its not like he has been a staple(successfully) of a quality team. GMs/coaches love the way he looks in a lobby. Once hes in their colors they still only love the way he looks in a lobby.
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Andre2K
Franchise Player

Joined: 28 Oct 2004
Posts: 12199

Posted: Sat Nov 24, 2007 7:21 pm Post subject:

DancingBarry wrote:

Sniper008 wrote:

like I said before, Lamar is a cancer on this team. Trade him now before the whole team gets infected.

Lamar's not a cancer.

He may be a square peg in a round hole at times or not the scorer that everyone, including the coaches wants him to be, but he's not a cancer.

Most cancers hurt their team off the court, Lamar hurts his team on the court, therefore, Lamar is a cancer since his play hurts the team more than it helps the team. Lamar is playing so poorly right now that I think he is doing on purpose, so he won't get traded because their won't be any takers. Seriously 4points in 31 mins??? 4 points? on 2-7 shooting with 4 turnovers, Lamar?? against a rival, when u know damn well u have to bring ur A game and all u can come up with is 4pts?

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Pg Lonzo
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wolfpaclaker
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Joined: 29 May 2002
Posts: 58348

Posted: Sat Nov 24, 2007 7:24 pm Post subject:

DancingBarry wrote:

wolfpaclaker wrote:

I agree, and so would Odom.

Odom has been very dissapointing the last 2 games. There is no excuse for how badly he is playing, he can play a lot better even with the way he is struggling to understand the offense. The way to do that is what he did against Detroit, go into the post and grab 2nd chance points or post up more (even if teammates won't find him). Just don't stand out there and allow the defense to make you a 3 point shooter. That is Fisher's job, not Odom's.

Tony Almeida
Retired

Joined: 05 Jan 2006
Posts: 12072

Posted: Sat Nov 24, 2007 8:13 pm Post subject:

hoopschick29 wrote:

When Lamar gets hurt, it's like he forgets how to play basketball. It's literally like he's starting all over again from scratch.

Bingo. Bango. Bongo.

One of the more disappointing things? When Lamar gets out of this funk (he will, no way he's this bad, too much talent, even if the BB IQ isn't there), and gets back to around 15/10/4, I'll personally still have the empty feeling knowing that he's capable of far more, and legitimate question of just how much impact those numbers bring to our squad on a night in night out basis. Not to mention it doesn't make these bad games and stretches go away either.

At this point though, I'd at least like to get back to "inconsistent questionable impact" Lamar who puts up some numbers, or show that he really wants it on the court, this has just been atrocious. Far easier to sweep his bad play under the rug when our new impact youth and vets (i.e. Fisher, Vlad to an extent) can help grind out a W, but against a team like Boston, we need all hands on deck. Every man, woman, and child needs to be accounted for. Unfortunately, Lamar was M.I.A. for one of the most hyped games (at least for me anyways) in some time.

I really thought he'd bring it that game. But now we move on. Tomorrow's game is against the Nets, a game where I can see Lamar once again breaking out of his funk, but it's not quite as necessary for him to play that well. My guess is he'll play better, not quite up to his averages, but better, and we still get the win because we have enough impact from other guys to take down the Nets.

A Mad Chinaman
Star Player

Joined: 07 Apr 2005
Posts: 6157

Posted: Sat Nov 24, 2007 10:31 pm Post subject:

DancingBarry wrote:

A Mad Chinaman wrote:

Maybe we should do what certain coaches do (the most notable, if I'm correct is Don Shula, Norm Chow, etc.) where the 1st 10 plays are preprogrammed. In the Lakers' case, I guess we have to set-up 5 plays for LO and 5 plays for Bynum. btw: Isn't it a two way street where LO has to make himself available (if he doesn't get the proper positioning, it doesn't make any sense to force the ball to him) and DFish getting him the ball - since he is the initiator? In regards to having him "see the court" - what was he doing behind the bench when Luke was being very efficient as the SF?

marloveslakers24
Starting Rotation

Joined: 24 Nov 2007
Posts: 767

Posted: Sat Nov 24, 2007 10:40 pm Post subject:

I hate the celtics period. LO doesnt understand the meaning of this game, the rivalry. Its a must win game. LO doesnt play with passion or with anything, He's not a laker.

A Mad Chinaman
Star Player

Joined: 07 Apr 2005
Posts: 6157

Posted: Sat Nov 24, 2007 10:57 pm Post subject:

And 1 wrote:

If Kwame didn't get injuried, we wouldn't have this question. Plus, in PJ's "small lineup" where Turiaff is the "5" - LO is the logical choice at the "4" with Ariza at "3" Kobe @ "2" and Farmar at "1". I don't know what is happening with Mihm. Hopefully he is still getting his legs back from not playing for a year. Nobody knows this answer at this time.

And 1 wrote:

Crit may have some talent, but he's not playing. Even if he were, those minutes aren't going to come at PG (where Farmar and Fish are holdin' it down) or SG (where Kobe is required to play 40+ minutes per). At a solid 220 lbs, Mo Evans had the ability to match-up against SF's who can post up and do damage (like Bonzi Wells, Paul Pierce, and Melo). Do you think that Critt can do this at 195 lbs? I don't. Sasha?

I think that in a "speed lineup" that what would work well later in the season would be Farmar, Crit, Kobe, LO (if he gets going or Luke or Vlad - especially if we need scoring) and Bynum (rotating with Turiaff). Kobe can play "2" or "3" if we're getting severely hurt at "3" - where PJ prefers to have him play (on the wing). Mo - though athletic - has gotten hurt by other athletic SFs while very inconsistent in producing any points. PLUS, what would you pay him (a backup SF) next season and for how many years. Critt will definitely bulk up at near MO's 220lbs and actually have the ability to score within the Triangle - a rare ability.

And 1 wrote:

But the fact that they acquired another SF (who I don't believe is the defensive force the organization is touting him to be) tells me that they're trying to add depth to a position they're already stacked at.
In looking at it, I think can forsee one of two things happening:
A) Phil plans on moving Odom back to PF; or,
B) the organization will look to move one (or more) of their SF's (and probably Kwame) later on in the season.
Now I don't know about you, but I think that Turiaf is playing at the PF position. I'm not sure that anyone wants to mess with this situation.
This leaves Option B and I'm sure that Odom, Walton, and Radmanovic are aware of it.
And yes, I believe that Odom would be bothered by this.

It's clear that they brought in Ariza to be an athletic SF that can guard opposing SFs that has given LO/Luke/Mo a lot of problems defensively. If not, this is his contract year and they can either just let him or S&T with another team. fyi: It is interesting to note that he didn't last long in UCLA's Howland system for very long (I heard that he was encouraged to leave for the pros).

LO will always be playing some limited PT at "4" - as he has already been doing. Who else can backup Turiaff - Mihm or Kwame (when he returns)?

It is a good thing that LO is "bothered" - especially since he is not performing well, he seems to not have the ability to consistently produce (despite his great talent) in a big setting with all the lights on (i.e. Los Angeles) and the Lakers not achieving the results expected of them.

If LO is a passer and Kobe is a shooter - with both of them touted to have a high Basketball IQ - why isn't there more "2 player" interactions between them. One would think that LO would have many assists setting up Kobe. If LO is hurt, then he shouldn't be playing. If LO is trying to play himself into shape, he should do it at the expense of winning games.

A Mad Chinaman
Star Player

Joined: 07 Apr 2005
Posts: 6157

Posted: Sat Nov 24, 2007 11:08 pm Post subject:

KOBE 2.0 wrote:

The team might be Learning Chinaman but that doesn't mean Odom should play like the way he is.

I was alluding to a fact in another thread where you stated that the team's road wins gave an indication that they are a good team. As oppose to my perspective(s) that the Lakers' have definitely upgraded their talent but still haven't proven (as Stu has stated) and/or learn how to win on the road against quality opponent and/or on the 2nd game of "back-to-backs."

The lost to the Celtics in Boston is not a "Doomsday Event" since it was the Lakers' 2nd game of a "back-to-back," a game on the road, Kwame is missing from the starting lineup, LO is just returning to the court and they are still adjusting their 2nd team. It does provide an accurate picture of where the Lakers are presently at. If LO is not going to consistently be scoring between 12 to 20 points EVERY GAME, PJ will (IMO) will have to tweaked the lineup (while hurting the 2nd team) to get more scoring since DFish should not be expected to score 15+ APG and Turiaff is not going to do this. The only viable alternative with Bynum in the starting lineup is to hope that he can average 15 PPG, 8RPG and 3APG - possible, but can Bynum do this consistently at this time. With Kwame out and Mihm's ineffectiveness, Bynum's stamina to be effective will definitely be tested.

DancingBarry
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Joined: 07 Sep 2001
Posts: 40207
Location: O.C.

Posted: Sun Nov 25, 2007 1:12 am Post subject:

Sniper008 wrote:

DancingBarry wrote:

Sniper008 wrote:

like I said before, Lamar is a cancer on this team. Trade him now before the whole team gets infected.

Lamar's not a cancer.

He may be a square peg in a round hole at times or not the scorer that everyone, including the coaches wants him to be, but he's not a cancer.

If you think he's purposely playing bad so he won't get traded, then I'd agree that is a definition of a cancer to me.

I don't think he's doing that. And like your opinion, that's just my opinion of the situation.

KB Dynasty
Starting Rotation

Joined: 02 Oct 2007
Posts: 277

Posted: Sun Nov 25, 2007 7:49 pm Post subject:

1 thing to say... BAD DEFENSE

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