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j. shuttlesworth
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Joined: 16 Nov 2007
Posts: 1088
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 Posted: Sat Aug 16, 2008 9:50 pm Post subject: |
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| id rather have bynum off the bench. with his injury, id rather reform the great bench mob again (lakers bench was no 1 in the league in scoring w/him) |
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stillmatic
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Joined: 18 Feb 2007
Posts: 4701
Location: Tarzana
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| Posted: Sat Aug 16, 2008 11:18 pm Post subject: |
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| j. shuttlesworth wrote: | | id rather have bynum off the bench. with his injury, id rather reform the great bench mob again (lakers bench was no 1 in the league in scoring w/him) |
Fat chance bro. The whole point of Bynum coming back is to put Pau at his natural position so we can have that sick sick front line of Pau Bynum and Lamar. Not only that, but no way in hell is Bynum coming off the bench. He is TOO good and trained TOO Hard in the off season to be coming off the bench.
I could go on and on, but he will never come off the bench, ever |
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J.C. Smith
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Joined: 23 Jun 2005
Posts: 12678
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| Posted: Sun Aug 17, 2008 4:21 am Post subject: |
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| Texas_Pete wrote: | | With Ariza in the game taking tough assignments (like Pip did for MJ), we match the offensive onslaught we often face with strong perimeter defense. |
Ariza has the athletic ability to do that, but he doesn't have the defensive fundamentals. Pippen was one of the leagues very best defenders. Ariza might become that one day, but right now he's not there. I love his effort defensively, and his ability to play off the ball defensively (where he is very good), but he's not a lock down defender. He's a fire hydrant, he can be used to cool off a hot man because he will get in their face, bother them with his length and quick hands, and can gamble because he's quick enough to recover. That can get a player out of a zone, but over the course of a game he's not a lock down defender. Guys figure him out and he puts hiimself in a bad position due to his aggressive style of defense. He'll make a guy work, but he's not going to shut people down night in and night out. Not yet at least.
| Texas_Pete wrote: | | The one thing LO does better than Ariza is board. That evens out now that Drew (really good rebounder) is playing and LO will often be on the perimeter. |
Except that Pau is a very average rebounder at the 4. Odom was a good rebounder at the 4 with Pau at the 5, and we still got killed on the glass at times in the playoffs. Odom at the 3 helps make up for Pau at the 4. Though I do feel Ariza is a decent rebounder, as well.
But to say that is all that Odom does better than Ariza is way off. He's a better ball handler, better passer, better shooter, and an all around better scorer. Ariza is a better off the ball defender, arguably a better man to man defender, and a better athlete.
The biggest advantage of having Odom as the small forward is that it lets him handle the ball, and allows Kobe to conserve energy and play in attack mode.
| Texas_Pete wrote: | | Like others have said, what is wrong with LO coming off the bench and dominating a second string SF (or depending on the matchup - PF)? He could still get his mpg without starting. And I think when PJ talking about players having to sacrifice this year he was talking about LO. |
The biggest problem with Odom coming off the bench is that it limits how many minutes he can get at both positions. It's easier for him to start at the 3, then slide to the 4 to give Gasol a break. It's harder to do that coming off the bench, and to play both the backup 3/4.
Beyond that though I think that Ariza is more suitable to play in a bench role because he's a pace changer. If you start Ariza at small forward and try to let him take the opposing teams best player and he gets into foul trouble, then Odom can't come in and be a stopper. Odom is a good defender but he isn't a guy who is going to shut anyone down when they get hot. He'll make guys work for their points and play pretty good defense throughout the course of a game. Ariza is the exact opposite. Because he defends a lot differently than other players, he can take someone out of their game. They'll adjust but that can be just enough to get a guy out of a zone. What he did to Iverson this season is a prime example. AI was completely on fire. They put Ariza on him and AI had issues with Trevors length. It took him out of his game, and then in the 4th quarter even after Ariza left the game, he couldn't get back on track. I don't think that Odom off the bench brings the type of energy that can turn a game around. Ariza can. |
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Mike@LG
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Location: Orange County, CA
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| Posted: Sun Aug 17, 2008 4:42 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | Ariza has the athletic ability to do that, but he doesn't have the defensive fundamentals. Pippen was one of the leagues very best defenders. Ariza might become that one day, but right now he's not there. I love his effort defensively, and his ability to play off the ball defensively (where he is very good), but he's not a lock down defender. He's a fire hydrant, he can be used to cool off a hot man because he will get in their face, bother them with his length and quick hands, and can gamble because he's quick enough to recover. That can get a player out of a zone, but over the course of a game he's not a lock down defender. Guys figure him out and he puts hiimself in a bad position due to his aggressive style of defense. He'll make a guy work, but he's not going to shut people down night in and night out. Not yet at least. |
I'd rather have that instead of what Odom brings. He can't even shut out a player.
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Texas_Pete
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Joined: 23 Jun 2005
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| Posted: Sun Aug 17, 2008 6:36 am Post subject: |
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| J.C. Smith wrote: | | Texas_Pete wrote: | | With Ariza in the game taking tough assignments (like Pip did for MJ), we match the offensive onslaught we often face with strong perimeter defense. |
Ariza has the athletic ability to do that, but he doesn't have the defensive fundamentals. Pippen was one of the leagues very best defenders. Ariza might become that one day, but right now he's not there. I love his effort defensively, and his ability to play off the ball defensively (where he is very good), but he's not a lock down defender. He's a fire hydrant, he can be used to cool off a hot man because he will get in their face, bother them with his length and quick hands, and can gamble because he's quick enough to recover. That can get a player out of a zone, but over the course of a game he's not a lock down defender. Guys figure him out and he puts hiimself in a bad position due to his aggressive style of defense. He'll make a guy work, but he's not going to shut people down night in and night out. Not yet at least.
| Texas_Pete wrote: | | The one thing LO does better than Ariza is board. That evens out now that Drew (really good rebounder) is playing and LO will often be on the perimeter. |
Except that Pau is a very average rebounder at the 4. Odom was a good rebounder at the 4 with Pau at the 5, and we still got killed on the glass at times in the playoffs. Odom at the 3 helps make up for Pau at the 4. Though I do feel Ariza is a decent rebounder, as well.
But to say that is all that Odom does better than Ariza is way off. He's a better ball handler, better passer, better shooter, and an all around better scorer. Ariza is a better off the ball defender, arguably a better man to man defender, and a better athlete.
The biggest advantage of having Odom as the small forward is that it lets him handle the ball, and allows Kobe to conserve energy and play in attack mode.
| Texas_Pete wrote: | | Like others have said, what is wrong with LO coming off the bench and dominating a second string SF (or depending on the matchup - PF)? He could still get his mpg without starting. And I think when PJ talking about players having to sacrifice this year he was talking about LO. |
The biggest problem with Odom coming off the bench is that it limits how many minutes he can get at both positions. It's easier for him to start at the 3, then slide to the 4 to give Gasol a break. It's harder to do that coming off the bench, and to play both the backup 3/4.
Beyond that though I think that Ariza is more suitable to play in a bench role because he's a pace changer. If you start Ariza at small forward and try to let him take the opposing teams best player and he gets into foul trouble, then Odom can't come in and be a stopper. Odom is a good defender but he isn't a guy who is going to shut anyone down when they get hot. He'll make guys work for their points and play pretty good defense throughout the course of a game. Ariza is the exact opposite. Because he defends a lot differently than other players, he can take someone out of their game. They'll adjust but that can be just enough to get a guy out of a zone. What he did to Iverson this season is a prime example. AI was completely on fire. They put Ariza on him and AI had issues with Trevors length. It took him out of his game, and then in the 4th quarter even after Ariza left the game, he couldn't get back on track. I don't think that Odom off the bench brings the type of energy that can turn a game around. Ariza can. |
Let me ask you this: who do you trust playing perimeter defense at the 3 more? Ariza has way more defensive tools to work with than LO does. LO is no slouch at defense... at the 4. We saw PP abuse him in the Finals as well. Look at the top 50 scorers in the league. I will almost guarantee you that positions 1-3 account for at least 35 of those 50. That means we need perimeter defensive improvements.
We can have Bynum and Pau dominate games at will. With weak perimeter defense, teams will still kill us by putting them in foul trouble because of aour lack of perimeter defense. Remember all of those illegal screens that KG set in the Finals - that lead to wide open 3 point attempts? Who do you want playing P&R defense when that occurs? The Sp*rs, Suns, Hornets, Jazz and many other teams employ the same tactics against us. I want Ariza out there starting at the 3 if anything for this exact situation.
I'm willing to see what LO can do at the 3, but for this team his best asset (rebounding) will be negated by having him mostly on the perimeter with 2-seven footers occupying the paint. His assists and ball handling responsibilities (two advantages many assert he has over Ariza) can be replaced as well. Frankly there are two reasons why you are right - that LO will start at the 3 and won't be traded: $14M KT, and he is the primary backup at the 4 if Pau or Drew goes down. Again, PJ stated that some players will have to make sacrifices this year. I'm thinking he is talking about LO. We will see soon enough. |
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All_Star_Laker
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Joined: 30 Jul 2005
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Location: NYC
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| Posted: Sun Aug 17, 2008 7:50 am Post subject: |
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| Texas_Pete wrote: |
Let me ask you this: who do you trust playing perimeter defense at the 3 more? Ariza has way more defensive tools to work with than LO does. LO is no slouch at defense... at the 4. We saw PP abuse him in the Finals as well. Look at the top 50 scorers in the league. I will almost guarantee you that positions 1-3 account for at least 35 of those 50. That means we need perimeter defensive improvements.
We can have Bynum and Pau dominate games at will. With weak perimeter defense, teams will still kill us by putting them in foul trouble because of aour lack of perimeter defense. Remember all of those illegal screens that KG set in the Finals - that lead to wide open 3 point attempts? Who do you want playing P&R defense when that occurs? The Sp*rs, Suns, Hornets, Jazz and many other teams employ the same tactics against us. I want Ariza out there starting at the 3 if anything for this exact situation.
I'm willing to see what LO can do at the 3, but for this team his best asset (rebounding) will be negated by having him mostly on the perimeter with 2-seven footers occupying the paint. His assists and ball handling responsibilities (two advantages many assert he has over Ariza) can be replaced as well. Frankly there are two reasons why you are right - that LO will start at the 3 and won't be traded: $14M KT, and he is the primary backup at the 4 if Pau or Drew goes down. Again, PJ stated that some players will have to make sacrifices this year. I'm thinking he is talking about LO. We will see soon enough. |
 Good Post. I agree.
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LakersMD
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Joined: 27 Jun 2003
Posts: 8015
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| Posted: Sun Aug 17, 2008 8:14 am Post subject: |
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Here are the two players' opponent's eFG and PER at the SF position, and their PER differential at the SF position. Not saying it tells the whole story, but may provide some context regarding Ariza's man defense.
LO:
2008: 45.5%, 14.6, -4.1
2007: 51.0%, 13.4, +4.6
2006: 45%, 12.7, +2.8
2005: 54%, 17.5, -0.6
Ariza:
2008: 60.7%, 25.1, -5.6
2007: 50.6%, 16.6, -0.3
2006: 54.5%, 17.5, -6.7
2005: 49%, 15.2, -1.2 |
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J.C. Smith
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Joined: 23 Jun 2005
Posts: 12678
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| Posted: Sun Aug 17, 2008 9:09 am Post subject: |
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| Mike@LG wrote: | | I'd rather have that instead of what Odom brings. He can't even shut out a player. |
See below...
| Texas_Pete wrote: | | Let me ask you this: who do you trust playing perimeter defense at the 3 more? Ariza has way more defensive tools to work with than LO does. LO is no slouch at defense... at the 4. We saw PP abuse him in the Finals as well. Look at the top 50 scorers in the league. I will almost guarantee you that positions 1-3 account for at least 35 of those 50. That means we need perimeter defensive improvements. |
If we're talking for 15-20 minutes a game, I'd take Ariza. If we're talking an entire game, I think I'd go with Odom. You know, there's a lot of talk here about Odom not being able to defend small forwards, but usually when I see that stuff I try to respond with this: As a small forward two years ago, in 34% of the minutes available at that position, he held opposing small forwards to 45% eFG and 12.7 PER. That's not just good defense, that's very good defense. I went through every game until the all-star break that season, he started them all at small forward, and I posted what his counterpart posted in those games. The defense was solid. Not lockdown, but solid.
I'm not going to dig through all 200 pages of that thread to find my post, but suffice to say I posted the full game logs of every game, and despite that being a thread with a whole lot of Odom hate going on, not a single person looked at those numbers and tried to make an argument for him being a bad defender based on them. The one person who tried to argue negatively against the numbers did so on the basis of him saying the numbers were a lie because Kobe was guarding Odom's man in a couple of games. While obviously sometimes you will switch, for the most part you don't want Kobe guarding small forwards, unless your doing it to save his energy on a weaker offensive player or to try to shut down a hot man. The other hole there is that Kobe was 1st team all-defense and had good defensive numbers himself, so basically we had good defense from both of those positions.
Despite all of the talk about Odom struggling at the 3, he out-performed his counterpart or played them even the majority of nights. The lone exception was Shawn Marion who had a huge night against Odom early in the season, but Odom had a big night, as well. The guys who had big nights on him were not dribble penetration guys, they were shooters. He'd get sucked in one help defense and wouldn't recover in time. I'd hope that with Pau and Bynum back that Phil would tell the 1-3 to stay home on their men and let the shot blockers do their job. I won't dig through all these games, it just takes too long, but here's all of the marquee match ups, against elite small forwards.
Odom at small forward in the Marquee Match ups 2005-2006:
vs Suns: Odom played well in both games but Marion had monster games. (0-1-1)
Marion: 30 points (13-24), 11 rebounds, 1 assist, 1 steal, 1 block, 1 turnover
Odom: 23 points (7-15), 16 rebounds, 8 assists, 1 steal, 2 turnovers
Game 2:
Marion: 22 points (7-16), 16 rebounds, 1 assist, 3 steals, 5 blocks, 4 turnovers
Odom: 15 points (7-12), 12 rebounds, 4 assists, 1 steal, 3 turnovers
vs. Nuggets: He played Carmelo to a standstill IMO (0-0-2)
Game1:
Carmelo: 16 points (6-17), 6 rebounds, 6 assists, 3 steals, 1 block, 6 turnovers
Odom: 8 points (2-13), 9 rebounds, 7 assists, 2 steals, 1 block, 4 turnovers
Game 2:
Carmelo: 21 points (8-16), 6 rebounds, 2 assists, 2 steals, 6 turnovers
Odom: 20 points (6-13), 8 rebounds, 4 assists, 1 steal, 1 block, 2 turnovers
vs Hawks: Harrington had a good season this year, about even overall (1-1)
Game 1:
Harrington: 18 points (7-16), 10 rebounds, 2 steals, 2 turnovers
Odom: 13 points (3-8), 11 rebounds, 6 assists, 5 steals, 1 block, 3 turnovers
Game 2:
Harrington: 8 points (3-8), 3 rebounds, 1 assists, 4 turnovers
Odom: 17 points (7-12), 3 rebounds, 3 assists, 3 turnovers
vs 76ers: Igoudala didn't do much against him (2-0)
Game 1:
Igoudala: 5 points (2-3), 11 rebounds, 3 assists, 2 steals, 1 block, 4 turnovers
Odom: 16 points (6-10), 12 rebounds, 3 assists, 1 steal, 1 block, 2 turnovers
Game 2:
Igoudala: 14 points (6-11), 4 rebounds, 1 steal
Odom: 8 points (4-10), 7 rebounds, 12 assists, 1 steal, 4 turnovers
vs. Clippers: Magette scored well but shot poorly (1-0)
Magette: 21 points (6-21), 5 rebounds, 2 assists, 2 turnovers
Odom: 18 points (8-15), 6 rebounds, 5 assists, 2 steals, 1 turnover
NOTE: Magette only played in one game
vs Bulls: Odom didn't core much in game 1 but he outplayed his counterpart both times (2-0)
Game 1:
Nocioni: 9 points (4-12), 5 rebounds, 1 assist, 2 turnovers
Odom: 6 poiints (2-4), 10 rebounds, 5 assists, 2 steals, 1 block, 3 turnovers
Game 2:
Odom: 19 points (8-11), 7 rebounds, 4 assists, 1 block
Nocioni: 4 points (2-7), 2 rebounds
NOTE: Nocioni only played 18 minutes in that game despite starting, Deng got bulk of minutes at the 3, and had:
Deng: 14 points (5-14), 6 rebounds, 1 assist
vs Nets: Even matchup, though Odom couldn't get on track offensively (0-0-1)
Game 1:
Jefferson: 10 points (2-6), 10 rebounds, 3 assists, 2 streals, 1 turnover
Odom: 8 points (1-11), 10 rebounds, 5 assists, 2 steals, 2 turnovers
vs. Spurs: 1-1 vs. an all-star
Game 1:
Ginobili: 22 points (9-14), 8 rebounds, 2 assists, 2 blocks, 2 turnovers
Odom: 27 points (12-25),16 rebounds, 3 assists, 2 turnovers
Game 2:
Ginobili: 21 points (7-11), 6 rebounds, 3 assists, 1 steal, 3 turnovers
Odom: 13 points (6-8), 7 rebounds, 4 assists, 2 steals, 1 block, 3 turnovers
vs. Mavericks: 2-1 vs. an All-Star
Game 1:
Howard: 4 points (2-3), 3 rebounds, 1 steal
Odom: 15 points (5-9), 11 rebounds, 5 assists, 3 turnovers
Game 2:
Howard: 7 points (3-16), 1 rebound, 1 assist
Odom: 7 points (2-5), 8 rebounds, 3 assists, 1 steal, 2 blocks, 1 turnover
Game 3:
Howard: 22 points (9-13), 10 rebounds, 4 assists, 1 steal, 1 block, 1 turnover
Odom: 14 points (5-13), 6 rebounds, 7 assists, 1 block, 3 turnovers
vs Wizards: 0-1-1 vs. another all-star
Game 1:
Butler: 20 points (3-9), 1 rebound, 1 assist, 4 steals
Odom: 14 points (6-12), 11 rebounds, 3 assists, 2 blocks
Game 2:
Butler: 16 points (7-21), 11 rebounds, 1 assist, 1 turnover
Odom: 9 points (3-9), 4 rebounds, 7 assists, 2 steals, 1 block, 1 turnover
vs. Rockets: T-Mac never got going, but Odom struggled too. (1-1)
Game 1:
T-Mac: 20 points (6-16), 8 rebounds, 4 assists, 1 steal, 1 block, 5 turnovers
Odom: 3 points (1-5), 7 rebounds, 1 steal, 5 turnovers
Game 2:
T-Mac: 11 points (5-18), 4 rebounds, 7 assists, 2 steals, 2 turnovers
Odom: 8 points (3-9), 13 rebounds, 2 assists, 2 turnovers
vs Cavs: Lebron got his pints, but Odom barely missed a triple double (0-0-1)
Lebron: 28 points (11-22), 2 rebounds, 9 assists, 5 turnovers
Odom: 20 points (9-13), 10 rebounds, 9 assists, 1 block, 2 turnovers
vs Kings: Outplayed both Peja and Artest (2-0)
Game 1:
Stoyakovic: 13 points (4-12), 10 rebounds, 3 assists, 1 turnover
Odom: 16 points (7-15), 10 rebounds, 6 assists, 1 block, 3 turnovers
Game 2:
Artest: 15 points (6-17), 6 rebounds, 7 assists, 2 steals, 4 turnovers
Odom: 19 points (9-16), 6 rebounds, 9 assists, 1 steal, 1 block
vs Pistons: Terrible game 1 by Odom, Good game 2 (1-1)
Game 1:
Prince: 19 points (7-14), 3 rebounds, 6 assists, 2 steals, 3 turnovers
Odom: 9 points (4-10), 8 rebounds, 3 assists, 1 steal, 8 turnovers
Game 2:
Prince: 13 points (6-15), 5 rebounds, 1 assist, 2 steals, 2 turnovers
Odom: 24 points (9-16), 5 rebounds, 10 assists, 2 steals
vs Celtics: Ryan Gomes? Are you kidding me (0-1)
NOTE: Pierce actually played a guard in this game and had quite a duel with Kobe (40 points for Kobe, 39 for Pierce)
Ryan Gomes: 19 points (8-10), 12 rebounds, 1 assist, 1 steal
Odom: 14 points (6-11), 10 rebounds, 7 assists, 1 block
In the Marquee matchups Odom was 13-9-5 by my estimation.
Trevor Ariza started 3 games for us this season. Here's how he fared:
vs. Celtics:
Ariza: 8 points (3-6), 3 rebounds, 3 assists, 1 steal, 1 turnover
Pierce: 33 points (9-19), 8 rebounds, 3 assists, 4 steals, 3 turnovers
vs. Jazz:
Ariza: 12 points (5-7), 5 rebounds, 4 assists, 2 steals, 1 turnover, 1 block
Kirilenko: 9 points (3-6), 3 rebounds, 2 assists, 1 turnover, 1 block
vs. Suns:
Ariza: 14 points (7-12), 7 rebounds, 3 assists, 2 steals, 2 turnovers, 1 block
Hill: 14 points (6-10), 3 rebounds, 4 assists, 1 steal, 1 turnover
You can make your own judgements based on those numbers. But personally, I think it shows that Odom is more than capable of playing small forward in the triangle. Anyone who disagrees with that, please argue against this. Last time I posted these numbers, everyone ignored them (except the one guy who called me a liar, no comment on that) and one page later they were back to saying he can't defend small forwards. Now bear in mind the shot blockers he had behind him were either Mihm, Kwame and Cook. In half of those games Cook was the power forward. Now he'll have Pau and Bynum, who are both better shot blockers than anyone we had on our team back then. He'll be just fine defensively. |
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Mike@LG
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Joined: 10 Apr 2001
Posts: 65135
Location: Orange County, CA
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| Posted: Sun Aug 17, 2008 9:55 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
vs Suns: Odom played well in both games but Marion had monster games. (0-1-1)
Marion: 30 points (13-24), 11 rebounds, 1 assist, 1 steal, 1 block, 1 turnover
Odom: 23 points (7-15), 16 rebounds, 8 assists, 1 steal, 2 turnovers
Game 2:
Marion: 22 points (7-16), 16 rebounds, 1 assist, 3 steals, 5 blocks, 4 turnovers
Odom: 15 points (7-12), 12 rebounds, 4 assists, 1 steal, 3 turnovers |
Self explanatory.
| Quote: | vs. Nuggets: He played Carmelo to a standstill IMO (0-0-2)
Game1:
Carmelo: 16 points (6-17), 6 rebounds, 6 assists, 3 steals, 1 block, 6 turnovers
Odom: 8 points (2-13), 9 rebounds, 7 assists, 2 steals, 1 block, 4 turnovers
Game 2:
Carmelo: 21 points (8-16), 6 rebounds, 2 assists, 2 steals, 6 turnovers
Odom: 20 points (6-13), 8 rebounds, 4 assists, 1 steal, 1 block, 2 turnovers |
Also self explanatory. Sure Game 1 he contained Melo, but then shut himself out.
| Quote: | vs Hawks: Harrington had a good season this year, about even overall (1-1)
Game 1:
Harrington: 18 points (7-16), 10 rebounds, 2 steals, 2 turnovers
Odom: 13 points (3-8), 11 rebounds, 6 assists, 5 steals, 1 block, 3 turnovers
Game 2:
Harrington: 8 points (3-8), 3 rebounds, 1 assists, 4 turnovers
Odom: 17 points (7-12), 3 rebounds, 3 assists, 3 turnovers |
1 considerable game against Harrington.
| Quote: | vs 76ers: Igoudala didn't do much against him (2-0)
Game 1:
Igoudala: 5 points (2-3), 11 rebounds, 3 assists, 2 steals, 1 block, 4 turnovers
Odom: 16 points (6-10), 12 rebounds, 3 assists, 1 steal, 1 block, 2 turnovers
Game 2:
Igoudala: 14 points (6-11), 4 rebounds, 1 steal
Odom: 8 points (4-10), 7 rebounds, 12 assists, 1 steal, 4 turnovers |
Wasn't Iguodala defended by someone else, since they're thin up front?
| Quote: | vs. Clippers: Magette scored well but shot poorly (1-0)
Magette: 21 points (6-21), 5 rebounds, 2 assists, 2 turnovers
Odom: 18 points (8-15), 6 rebounds, 5 assists, 2 steals, 1 turnover
NOTE: Magette only played in one game |
Still outscored. Maggette got to the FT line if he shot 6 for 21 and still got 21 points.
| Quote: | vs Bulls: Odom didn't core much in game 1 but he outplayed his counterpart both times (2-0)
Game 1:
Nocioni: 9 points (4-12), 5 rebounds, 1 assist, 2 turnovers
Odom: 6 poiints (2-4), 10 rebounds, 5 assists, 2 steals, 1 block, 3 turnovers
Game 2:
Odom: 19 points (8-11), 7 rebounds, 4 assists, 1 block
Nocioni: 4 points (2-7), 2 rebounds
NOTE: Nocioni only played 18 minutes in that game despite starting, Deng got bulk of minutes at the 3, and had:
Deng: 14 points (5-14), 6 rebounds, 1 assist |
Outplayed except, I'd argue over the first game. 6 points?!?
| Quote: | vs Nets: Even matchup, though Odom couldn't get on track offensively (0-0-1)
Game 1:
Jefferson: 10 points (2-6), 10 rebounds, 3 assists, 2 streals, 1 turnover
Odom: 8 points (1-11), 10 rebounds, 5 assists, 2 steals, 2 turnovers |
Neither had advantage. 1-11?!?
| Quote: | vs. Spurs: 1-1 vs. an all-star
Game 1:
Ginobili: 22 points (9-14), 8 rebounds, 2 assists, 2 blocks, 2 turnovers
Odom: 27 points (12-25),16 rebounds, 3 assists, 2 turnovers
Game 2:
Ginobili: 21 points (7-11), 6 rebounds, 3 assists, 1 steal, 3 turnovers
Odom: 13 points (6-8), 7 rebounds, 4 assists, 2 steals, 1 block, 3 turnovers
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You sure Odom was defending Ginobili? Usually, he defends Oberto while Gasol is on Duncan. So no, I don't agree it was Odom vs. Gino.
| Quote: | vs. Mavericks: 2-1 vs. an All-Star
Game 1:
Howard: 4 points (2-3), 3 rebounds, 1 steal
Odom: 15 points (5-9), 11 rebounds, 5 assists, 3 turnovers
Game 2:
Howard: 7 points (3-16), 1 rebound, 1 assist
Odom: 7 points (2-5), 8 rebounds, 3 assists, 1 steal, 2 blocks, 1 turnover
Game 3:
Howard: 22 points (9-13), 10 rebounds, 4 assists, 1 steal, 1 block, 1 turnover
Odom: 14 points (5-13), 6 rebounds, 7 assists, 1 block, 3 turnovers |
Odom was defending Dirk Nowitzki. Not Josh Howard.
| Quote: | vs Wizards: 0-1-1 vs. another all-star
Game 1:
Butler: 20 points (3-9), 1 rebound, 1 assist, 4 steals
Odom: 14 points (6-12), 11 rebounds, 3 assists, 2 blocks
Game 2:
Butler: 16 points (7-21), 11 rebounds, 1 assist, 1 turnover
Odom: 9 points (3-9), 4 rebounds, 7 assists, 2 steals, 1 block, 1 turnover |
I'd call that pretty even.
| Quote: | vs. Rockets: T-Mac never got going, but Odom struggled too. (1-1)
Game 1:
T-Mac: 20 points (6-16), 8 rebounds, 4 assists, 1 steal, 1 block, 5 turnovers
Odom: 3 points (1-5), 7 rebounds, 1 steal, 5 turnovers
Game 2:
T-Mac: 11 points (5-18), 4 rebounds, 7 assists, 2 steals, 2 turnovers
Odom: 8 points (3-9), 13 rebounds, 2 assists, 2 turnovers |
Odom defends TMac? Disagree. The Lakers usually stick Radmanovic early and Bryant later. Odom once again at PF. McGrady isn't defended by Odom for more than 4 possessions for an entire game.
| Quote: | vs Cavs: Lebron got his pints, but Odom barely missed a triple double (0-0-1)
Lebron: 28 points (11-22), 2 rebounds, 9 assists, 5 turnovers
Odom: 20 points (9-13), 10 rebounds, 9 assists, 1 block, 2 turnovers |
Self explanatory. Odom was defended by Gooden.
| Quote: | vs Kings: Outplayed both Peja and Artest (2-0)
Game 1:
Stoyakovic: 13 points (4-12), 10 rebounds, 3 assists, 1 turnover
Odom: 16 points (7-15), 10 rebounds, 6 assists, 1 block, 3 turnovers
Game 2:
Artest: 15 points (6-17), 6 rebounds, 7 assists, 2 steals, 4 turnovers
Odom: 19 points (9-16), 6 rebounds, 9 assists, 1 steal, 1 block |
You mean, Kenny Thomas? Odom wasn't playing SF vs. Peja and Artest. Once again, shockingly, it is Radmanovic. Cadet gets into foul trouble and gets thrown off his game.
| Quote: | vs Pistons: Terrible game 1 by Odom, Good game 2 (1-1)
Game 1:
Prince: 19 points (7-14), 3 rebounds, 6 assists, 2 steals, 3 turnovers
Odom: 9 points (4-10), 8 rebounds, 3 assists, 1 steal, 8 turnovers
Game 2:
Prince: 13 points (6-15), 5 rebounds, 1 assist, 2 steals, 2 turnovers
Odom: 24 points (9-16), 5 rebounds, 10 assists, 2 steals |
Sheed?
| Quote: | vs Celtics: Ryan Gomes? Are you kidding me (0-1)
NOTE: Pierce actually played a guard in this game and had quite a duel with Kobe (40 points for Kobe, 39 for Pierce)
Ryan Gomes: 19 points (8-10), 12 rebounds, 1 assist, 1 steal
Odom: 14 points (6-11), 10 rebounds, 7 assists, 1 block |
You said it. 0-1 to Gomes.
In the Marquee matchups Odom was 13-9-5 by my estimation.
Trevor Ariza started 3 games for us this season. Here's how he fared:
| Quote: | vs. Celtics:
Ariza: 8 points (3-6), 3 rebounds, 3 assists, 1 steal, 1 turnover
Pierce: 33 points (9-19), 8 rebounds, 3 assists, 4 steals, 3 turnovers |
What did Gomes or the SF actually get? Or was this after the Celtic trade?
| Quote: | vs. Jazz:
Ariza: 12 points (5-7), 5 rebounds, 4 assists, 2 steals, 1 turnover, 1 block
Kirilenko: 9 points (3-6), 3 rebounds, 2 assists, 1 turnover, 1 block |
Neutralized.
| Quote: | vs. Suns:
Ariza: 14 points (7-12), 7 rebounds, 3 assists, 2 steals, 2 turnovers, 1 block
Hill: 14 points (6-10), 3 rebounds, 4 assists, 1 steal, 1 turnover |
Better than Hill.
Wow. I mean I see those statistics and wonder why he gets paid so much considering his competition. Marion for Odom still seems like a No Brainer.
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Texas_Pete
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Joined: 23 Jun 2005
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| Posted: Sun Aug 17, 2008 9:57 am Post subject: |
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^J.C. Smith, I won't quote you and stretch bandwith - that was a hell of a post. Props. But I think it's kind of misleading because LO always got the minutes to put up numbers. Here is a comparison head to head:
LO
PPG 14.2
RPG 10.6
APG 3.5
SPG 1.0
BPG 0.9
FG% 0.525
FT% 0.698
3P% 0.274
MPG 37.9
Ariza
PPG 5.5
RPG 3.1
APG 1.3
SPG 0.9
BPG 0.3
FG% 0.507
FT% 0.653
3P% 0.278
MPG 15.6
For sake of debate, let's double Ariza's mpg to 31.2 (still less than LO's 37.9) and then compare:
PPG 11.0
RPG 6.2
APG 2.6
SPG 1.8
BPG 0.6
FG% 0.507
FT% 0.653
3P% 0.278
MPG 31.2
I am confident that he could put up these numbers. This is especially because the more mpg for Ariza (and any starter for that matter), the more likely they will play v. a non-starter at some point during the game - thus making it easier to put up numbers. So if I am right, could you live with this sort of production from Ariza in the starting lineup? It compares relatively well with LO's PF numbers sans the rebounding (that I still say will even out with Drew down low eating up boards). With that in mind we still have the energy to match up with GS, Phoenix, Wizzards, Blazers and any other team out there that has hurt us with athleticism and run/in/gun style.
Oh, my other question is with those matchups with LBJ, PP, etc., was LO matched up exclusively with these studs or just part-time? If it were full-time and he demonstrated those numbers then I'll let my fantasy of starting Ariza over LO go. However I really doubt that LO has played these guys head up for 35+ mpg. Maybe once or twice is my guess which isn't a good enough sample size IMO. |
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lakers jg
Starting Rotation
Joined: 22 Jun 2008
Posts: 323
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| Posted: Sun Aug 17, 2008 10:24 am Post subject: |
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I think it would be good idea with trying it out in a couple of preseason
games just to see how it goes. I think that having Ariza in the line up because
with all the attention on every one else I think that he will be free to
make shots and slash more. |
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Mike@LG
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Location: Orange County, CA
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| Posted: Sun Aug 17, 2008 10:29 am Post subject: |
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| lakers jg wrote: | I think it would be good idea with trying it out in a couple of preseason
games just to see how it goes. I think that having Ariza in the line up because
with all the attention on every one else I think that he will be free to
make shots and slash more. |
Agreed.
Not just that, but I easily expect Odom to score less with the emphasis on Gasol and Bynum in the paint.
The thing I like about Ariza outside of his defense is, you don't need to call a play for him. He's a spot up shooter, a finisher off the ball, or an offensive rebounder. Similar to Marion in that sense. 12 garbage points a game would be great, especially considering Odom won't get his number called to create.
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LA_Lakers_Rule
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Joined: 23 Aug 2004
Posts: 19482
Location: The X-Files
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| Posted: Sun Aug 17, 2008 10:29 am Post subject: Re: Would it be too crazy to start Ariza at the 3? |
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| lakersboy wrote: | | J.C. Smith wrote: | Ariza is an energy player, and unless your having problems with slow starts, energy players are usually best off the bench. When your team is dragging you toss them in there and they can change the pace of a game. He really doesn't do anything better than Odom though, aside from being a high octane and high effort guy. Odom is a better scorer, rebounder, passer, and shooter than Trevor, and personally I think Odom is a better defender in many cases.
Trevor is a better athlete and that athleticism can help him bother and disrupt some players. He can guard point guards, and when a guy is hot he is someone who can come in, gamble, pressure and give them a different look. He isn't a sound defender though fundamentally, he gets by on his athleticism, and can get burnt. He's got the potential to be an elite defender, and right now his defense is reminiscent to me of when we had Devean George here. If a guy catches fire, put Ariza on him and see if he can bother him. If nothing else he makes the player adjust which can help take them out of a zone. In normal minute to minute defense though, he's overrated.
So Trevor stays on the bench, and we use him to try to disrupt hot players or to give us a boost of energy when we need it, in my opinion. It's funny Odom is pretty solid all around, but he is only a mediocre shooter, and there are countless threads about why he won't work as a small forward because he can't spread the floor. Well Trevor is a terrible shooter, and he isn't up to par on other areas that Odom is. I'm not sure why people think he would work better in that role. You could do worse than having Ariza as a starting small forward, but Odom is the better player. Not only that but Odom can be a ball handler and relive Kobe from those duties, Ariza can not. Moreover, Odom figures to be our backup power forward, as well. It's a lot easier to start Odom and then give Pau a breather at the 6-8 minute mark, slide Odom to the 4 and Ariza comes in at the 3. When Pau comes back he gives Bynum a blow. Odom can't come off the bench and backup two positions. He can start at the 3 though and slide over to the 4 when Pau goes out of the game. |
j.c. i've always agreed with about 99.5% of everything you say. you've got some solid takes and you seem to think just like me. to me, you and lakerjam are the voices of reason on here. HOWEVER....., i disagree with you.
as i've said before, i've watched trevor since he was a terrible shooting freshman. he was still not a good shooter when he came to the lakers. during his time off he worked hard on his shot and when you go to the games and watch him warm up, you can see it. he didnt get enough consistent run to really tell but it was clear to me during warmups of several playoff games i went to that he finally has a touch. i assure you.....trevor cant be called a terrible shooter. even kobe acknowledged that trevor's shot improved a lot while he was off. at more than 1 game, i saw him consistently nailing 3 point shots during warmups. he couldnt do that before.
nothing i say will prove it but i assure you that trevor will start the season as a good shooter and people will think he accomplished that during the off season. he's already a better shooter and in 2 months, everyone will be seeing it. |
Where I totally agree with lakersboy is that I almost always find loggers like J.C. Smith, LakerJam, LakerSanity, wolfpaclaker, venturalakersfan, illmatic, OregonLakerGuy, golakersgo121, emplay along with a handful of others that I can't think of off the top of my head are clearly what I would consider "the voices of reason" here on LG as well, imho (of course this would be a by product of the fact that we generally tend to agree  ).
On this one I'm kind of in between really... I totally agree that I think we will find that Trevor will show that he has improved his shot considerably... I've seen the same thing in warm ups as well and I think this is likely because Trevor had a lot of time to work on just his shot during the time he was recovering from foot surgery.
So yes I really think that we will tend to reevaluate Trevor's shooting next year and this general consensus that he is ultimately a "terrible" shooter will change. I would agree that up until now it is reasonable to say that Trevor has been basically a pretty "terrible shooter" no question... but I also agree with lakersboy in that I think there are signs that this will improve significantly.
Where I'm in between is I'm not so sure the improvement will still be THAT MUCH better than Odom's shooting in the end anyway. No question Odom's weakest asset is shooting but it really isn't as bad as some make it on LG, imho, and I think I think I agree with J.C. the same thing can be said of the perception that many have concerning Odom's defense as well in that Odom's overall defense is underrated on LG.
As I see it next year may show both players to be pretty close to the same in shooting with Trevor improving a lot but the other things that Odom can do will keep him in the starting line-up. Even if Trevor proves to be maybe even a little better than Odom as far as shooting is concerned (which would not surprise me) will this be enough of a difference to counter some of the other things that Odom does that Trevor simply does not.
And I would agree with J.C. that a "spark" off the bench works better with bringing Trevor in as opposed to starting him.
The only way I could see Trevor starting in place of Odom is if Trevor has a huge break out year somehow and Odom has basically a "ho hum" or "slow" start.
Other than that I think Odom will start and hopefully Trevor will get relatively significant minutes off the bench based on his improving his game.
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J.C. Smith
Franchise Player
Joined: 23 Jun 2005
Posts: 12678
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| Posted: Sun Aug 17, 2008 11:06 am Post subject: |
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Editing this down for brevity. Note, I realized about halfway through this post that I think Mike misunderstood that these were numbers from 2005-2006 (when Odom was our starting small forward for all of these games). At that point it was already 1:40 AM here so I'm not going to edit the uppermost comments before I realized it, it's sleepy time. Did have a few comments though.
vs. Carmelo:
| Mike@LG wrote: | | Also self explanatory. Sure Game 1 he contained Melo, but then shut himself out. |
He held Carmelo under his average in both games, and to a horrible shooting percentage in game 1. Carmelo averaged 26.5 points on 48.5% shooting that season.
vs. Harrington:
| Mike@LG wrote: | | 1 considerable game against Harrington. |
Harrington averaged 18.6 points on 45.2% shooting that season. He held him under his points per game in both matchups and he scored less than half his average in game 2. Odom meanwhile had decent games both times.
vs. Igoudala:
| Mike@LG wrote: | | Wasn't Iguodala defended by someone else, since they're thin up front? |
He could have been. I just did this from the game logs and don't recall. Kobe often guards Igoudala when they play now, thats becuse you have Walton or Radmanovic at the 3. No way Cook was guarding Iggy so Odom either guarded Igoudala or Korver (who shot 3-9 and 5-15 in the two matchups).
vs. Nocioni and Deng:
| Mike@LG wrote: | | Outplayed except, I'd argue over the first game. 6 points?!? |
He only took 4 shots and made 2. Is his offense really that important to us this season? He held those two to bad percentages and below their averages in both games.
vs. Jefferson:
| Mike@LG wrote: | | Neither had advantage. 1-11?!? |
10 rebounds, 5 assists, 2 steals... again is his offense really that important at this point? Jefferson averaged 19.5 points on 49.3% shooting that season, and Odom held him to 10 on 2-6.
vs. Ginobili:
| Mike@LG wrote: | | You sure Odom was defending Ginobili? Usually, he defends Oberto while Gasol is on Duncan. So no, I don't agree it was Odom vs. Gino. |
I'm not sure on many of these who was guarding who, but Ginobili started both of these games and Odom would have either been on him or Bowen. Kobe usually guards Bowen. They started Nesterovic in the first game and Nazr Mohammed in the second, and the Lakers started Mihm and Cook in both games. I'd think Mihm guarded Duncan and Cook took Mohammed or Nesterovic.
vs. Howard:
| Mike@LG wrote: | | Odom was defending Dirk Nowitzki. Not Josh Howard. |
I won't argue against it because I don't recall. Nowadays Odom usually guards Dirk. But in all three matchups Cook started at power forward in all three matchups. If Odom guarded Dirk, that would mean that Cook would have had to guard one of the little guys, becuase Mihm had to be on Dampier/Diop.
| Mike@LG wrote: | | Odom defends TMac? Disagree. The Lakers usually stick Radmanovic early and Bryant later. Odom once again at PF. McGrady isn't defended by Odom for more than 4 possessions for an entire game. |
Ahh I think I see the problem here. Confusion over what season it was. These numbers were all of the games from 2005-2006, these are all Odom at starting small forward. We didn't have Radmanovic at this point. We still have Devean George at this point, who definitely defended T-Mac at points. But Cook started both of these games.
I cut off the responses after this point because it became obvious that you misunderstood the season here, or that I didn't clarify that well enough in my post.
| Texas_Pete wrote: | | So if I am right, could you live with this sort of production from Ariza in the starting lineup? It compares relatively well with LO's PF numbers sans the rebounding (that I still say will even out with Drew down low eating up boards). With that in mind we still have the energy to match up with GS, Phoenix, Wizzards, Blazers and any other team out there that has hurt us with athleticism and run/in/gun style. |
I think that Ariza could hit 40%+ on his jump shots, he could be a pretty good starter. He's an impact player, and he should only get better with more experience. I just think that Odom is the all around better option. If we traded Odom for a point guard for example, I think Ariza could fill in and he could be a starter. But so long as Odom is on the team, I'd start him over Ariza. That having been said, I wouldn't want to trade Ariza. His athleticism is something we need.
| Texas_Pete wrote: | | Oh, my other question is with those matchups with LBJ, PP, etc., was LO matched up exclusively with these studs or just part-time? If it were full-time and he demonstrated those numbers then I'll let my fantasy of starting Ariza over LO go. However I really doubt that LO has played these guys head up for 35+ mpg. Maybe once or twice is my guess which isn't a good enough sample size IMO. |
He definitely didn't. He started in each of those games against them. But Cook started the majority of games at power forward, and Kwame the rest. Cook only averaged 19 minutes a game, and Kwame 27.5. Odom played exclusively at the power forward after Mihm went down, and at the end of the season 34% of his minutes were at the 3 and 44% at the 4. So Odom split his time pretty evenly between the 3/4 for the rest of the season. He played 40.3 minutes a game, so figure 20 at each spot. His backups were Devean George (21.7 minutes, 16% of them at guard) and Luke Walton (19.3 minutes, 35% of them at power forward). Both guys had some injury issues during the season at different points.
My honest impression of Odom at the 3, is he is a pretty good defender. The 45% eFG against is a low number. The 12.7 PER against is a very low number. Odom isn't going to stop the likes of Lebron, Pierce, etc but who really does? He's not as quick footed as those guys, but he has a lot of length and he has better bulk than most guys at that position. All you can really ask is that he makes them work for their points and he makes an impact on the other end of the court. He's definitely a big upgrade over Radmanovic and Walton though defensively, and that's what we've had the past two seasons. I'd say that Odom's defense is solid and reliable for the most part, but not lock down. Between he and Ariza though we should have the best defense we've had at that position since Rick Fox grew old.
I really like the idea of Odom/Pau/Bynum in there together too, because what other teams can match up with that type of size? We should dominate the glass each and every night. Odom and Bynum are among the league leaders in rebounds, and Gasol will give you about 8 a game. Three guys in the starting lineup who have averaged 1.6+ blocks a game in their career. Odom was a better shot blocker as a small forward than he was as a power forward. He and Gasol can both block shots from the weak side, and Bynum is one of the leagues best shot blockers. With that kind of shot blocking there will be no excuse for our guards to cheat over on defense and then get torched by three point shooters. If Odom can knock down jumpers with relative consistancy (my only major concern with him) we're going to be really tough to beat with that lineup. And then you have a second unit that brings in Farmar, Sasha, Ariza, and slides Odom to the 4 and Gasol to the 5. It's a completely different team with quick guys at the 1-4 who can get out and run. Personally, I can't wait for the season to begin, I want to see this team in action. |
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sAM sHILE
Star Player
Joined: 02 Dec 2007
Posts: 2448
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| Posted: Sun Aug 17, 2008 11:34 am Post subject: |
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The standards need to be the same for all players not higher ones for Odom. Mostly it is a team game. Odom did real good at the 3 (2005-2006) considering he had to play mulitple positions with an average, often injured, team. Anything less is an agenda to invalidate him one more time.
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Last edited by sAM sHILE on Sun Aug 17, 2008 11:54 am; edited 5 times in total |
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wackymathay
Starting Rotation
Joined: 13 May 2008
Posts: 252
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| Posted: Sun Aug 17, 2008 11:38 am Post subject: |
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For the sake of good order..
I'm willing to wait for the the results of Ariza's off-season training before I actually comment if he's good enough to start.  |
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sAM sHILE
Star Player
Joined: 02 Dec 2007
Posts: 2448
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| Posted: Sun Aug 17, 2008 11:47 am Post subject: |
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| J.C. Smith wrote: | Editing this down for brevity. Note, I realized about halfway through this post that I think Mike misunderstood that these were numbers from 2005-2006 (when Odom was our starting small forward for all of these games). At that point it was already 1:40 AM here so I'm not going to edit the uppermost comments before I realized it, it's sleepy time. Did have a few comments though.
vs. Carmelo:
| Mike@LG wrote: | | Also self explanatory. Sure Game 1 he contained Melo, but then shut himself out. |
He held Carmelo under his average in both games, and to a horrible shooting percentage in game 1. Carmelo averaged 26.5 points on 48.5% shooting that season.
vs. Harrington:
| Mike@LG wrote: | | 1 considerable game against Harrington. |
Harrington averaged 18.6 points on 45.2% shooting that season. He held him under his points per game in both matchups and he scored less than half his average in game 2. Odom meanwhile had decent games both times.
vs. Igoudala:
| Mike@LG wrote: | | Wasn't Iguodala defended by someone else, since they're thin up front? |
He could have been. I just did this from the game logs and don't recall. Kobe often guards Igoudala when they play now, thats becuse you have Walton or Radmanovic at the 3. No way Cook was guarding Iggy so Odom either guarded Igoudala or Korver (who shot 3-9 and 5-15 in the two matchups).
vs. Nocioni and Deng:
| Mike@LG wrote: | | Outplayed except, I'd argue over the first game. 6 points?!? |
He only took 4 shots and made 2. Is his offense really that important to us this season? He held those two to bad percentages and below their averages in both games.
vs. Jefferson:
| Mike@LG wrote: | | Neither had advantage. 1-11?!? |
10 rebounds, 5 assists, 2 steals... again is his offense really that important at this point? Jefferson averaged 19.5 points on 49.3% shooting that season, and Odom held him to 10 on 2-6.
vs. Ginobili:
| Mike@LG wrote: | | You sure Odom was defending Ginobili? Usually, he defends Oberto while Gasol is on Duncan. So no, I don't agree it was Odom vs. Gino. |
I'm not sure on many of these who was guarding who, but Ginobili started both of these games and Odom would have either been on him or Bowen. Kobe usually guards Bowen. They started Nesterovic in the first game and Nazr Mohammed in the second, and the Lakers started Mihm and Cook in both games. I'd think Mihm guarded Duncan and Cook took Mohammed or Nesterovic.
vs. Howard:
| Mike@LG wrote: | | Odom was defending Dirk Nowitzki. Not Josh Howard. |
I won't argue against it because I don't recall. Nowadays Odom usually guards Dirk. But in all three matchups Cook started at power forward in all three matchups. If Odom guarded Dirk, that would mean that Cook would have had to guard one of the little guys, becuase Mihm had to be on Dampier/Diop.
| Mike@LG wrote: | | Odom defends TMac? Disagree. The Lakers usually stick Radmanovic early and Bryant later. Odom once again at PF. McGrady isn't defended by Odom for more than 4 possessions for an entire game. |
Ahh I think I see the problem here. Confusion over what season it was. These numbers were all of the games from 2005-2006, these are all Odom at starting small forward. We didn't have Radmanovic at this point. We still have Devean George at this point, who definitely defended T-Mac at points. But Cook started both of these games.
I cut off the responses after this point because it became obvious that you misunderstood the season here, or that I didn't clarify that well enough in my post.
| Texas_Pete wrote: | | So if I am right, could you live with this sort of production from Ariza in the starting lineup? It compares relatively well with LO's PF numbers sans the rebounding (that I still say will even out with Drew down low eating up boards). With that in mind we still have the energy to match up with GS, Phoenix, Wizzards, Blazers and any other team out there that has hurt us with athleticism and run/in/gun style. |
I think that Ariza could hit 40%+ on his jump shots, he could be a pretty good starter. He's an impact player, and he should only get better with more experience. I just think that Odom is the all around better option. If we traded Odom for a point guard for example, I think Ariza could fill in and he could be a starter. But so long as Odom is on the team, I'd start him over Ariza. That having been said, I wouldn't want to trade Ariza. His athleticism is something we need.
| Texas_Pete wrote: | | Oh, my other question is with those matchups with LBJ, PP, etc., was LO matched up exclusively with these studs or just part-time? If it were full-time and he demonstrated those numbers then I'll let my fantasy of starting Ariza over LO go. However I really doubt that LO has played these guys head up for 35+ mpg. Maybe once or twice is my guess which isn't a good enough sample size IMO. |
He definitely didn't. He started in each of those games against them. But Cook started the majority of games at power forward, and Kwame the rest. Cook only averaged 19 minutes a game, and Kwame 27.5. Odom played exclusively at the power forward after Mihm went down, and at the end of the season 34% of his minutes were at the 3 and 44% at the 4. So Odom split his time pretty evenly between the 3/4 for the rest of the season. He played 40.3 minutes a game, so figure 20 at each spot. His backups were Devean George (21.7 minutes, 16% of them at guard) and Luke Walton (19.3 minutes, 35% of them at power forward). Both guys had some injury issues during the season at different points.
My honest impression of Odom at the 3, is he is a pretty good defender. The 45% eFG against is a low number. The 12.7 PER against is a very low number. Odom isn't going to stop the likes of Lebron, Pierce, etc but who really does? He's not as quick footed as those guys, but he has a lot of length and he has better bulk than most guys at that position. All you can really ask is that he makes them work for their points and he makes an impact on the other end of the court. He's definitely a big upgrade over Radmanovic and Walton though defensively, and that's what we've had the past two seasons. I'd say that Odom's defense is solid and reliable for the most part, but not lock down. Between he and Ariza though we should have the best defense we've had at that position since Rick Fox grew old.
I really like the idea of Odom/Pau/Bynum in there together too, because what other teams can match up with that type of size? We should dominate the glass each and every night. Odom and Bynum are among the league leaders in rebounds, and Gasol will give you about 8 a game. Three guys in the starting lineup who have averaged 1.6+ blocks a game in their career. Odom was a better shot blocker as a small forward than he was as a power forward. He and Gasol can both block shots from the weak side, and Bynum is one of the leagues best shot blockers. With that kind of shot blocking there will be no excuse for our guards to cheat over on defense and then get torched by three point shooters. If Odom can knock down jumpers with relative consistancy (my only major concern with him) we're going to be really tough to beat with that lineup. And then you have a second unit that brings in Farmar, Sasha, Ariza, and slides Odom to the 4 and Gasol to the 5. It's a completely different team with quick guys at the 1-4 who can get out and run. Personally, I can't wait for the season to begin, I want to see this team in action. |
JC your points are valid, no matter how hard someone tries to nit pick them away. Good research bro.
Ariza can"t pass, Can't dribble, can't shhhoooot near the side of a barn, but plays some def. Ariza not getting the minutes is because 2 sets of coaches didn't think he was worth the time. My hope is he grows in next couple of years and can learn from Lamar.
Marion would die in the triangle. Marion at 17 mil makes the 12 +/- million we have been paying look really good.
By the way, I don't care if (it is not we) Jerry Buss pays anyone alot of money. Unless the saved money is going towards his hot chicks coming over my house. 
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OregonLakerGuy
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Joined: 23 Feb 2005
Posts: 13207
Location: Oregon
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| Posted: Sun Aug 17, 2008 1:24 pm Post subject: |
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| wackymathay wrote: | For the sake of good order..
I'm willing to wait for the the results of Ariza's off-season training before I actually comment if he's good enough to start. |
Cosign.
If he earns it, bravo. |
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Mike@LG
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Joined: 10 Apr 2001
Posts: 65135
Location: Orange County, CA
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| Posted: Sun Aug 17, 2008 2:59 pm Post subject: |
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Dating back to 2005-2006...
Lamar Odom was the SF.
So according to those games:
Marion > Odom
Harrington = Odom
Melo = Odom back then (Melo was a 2nd year player at the time, not the guy he is now)
Iguodala < Odom back then (I doubt this was the matchup), and now? Iguodala > Odom
Deng and Noccioni are better now than they were then.
Same with RJ.
Gino wasn't starting in '05-'06. He was coming off the bench and getting big minutes. Shockingly, Odom's assignment was Nazr Mohammed and Rasho Nesterovic so that Kwame/Mihm could contain Duncan.
Dirk plays PF anyway and Odom definitely didn't contain him last year, even though that was his primary matchup.
Wizards started Jamison and Jared Jeffries.
etc.
Those previous statistics don't account for the significant improvement of some of those players, and in some cases clearly surpassing Odom's offensive abilities in the past 3 years.
He had his chance then, didn't succeed, so why should I expect the same level of play, or better, now?
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J.C. Smith
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Joined: 23 Jun 2005
Posts: 12678
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| Posted: Sun Aug 17, 2008 11:01 pm Post subject: |
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You know Mike, I respect your opinion, and your one of the most knowledgeable guys here. I wouldn't debate that Odom is an underachiever, but even as an underachiever he's a quality player. He's certainly not a liability. It's hard to find a guy with Odom's talent and his ability to play multiple roles who would be willing to settle for being the teams fourth best player and not complain about touches.
| Mike@LG wrote: | | Marion > Odom |
I think it's safe to say that overall Marion is the better player. A multiple yer all-star, good defender. He's a good player. If he didn't have ridiculous contract demands and an ego problem, I'd trade Odom for him in a heartbeat.
| Mike@LG wrote: | | Melo = Odom back then (Melo was a 2nd year player at the time, not the guy he is now) |
Melo averaged 26.5 points on 48.1% shooting that season. He was already a pretty darn good player.
| Mike@LG wrote: | | Iguodala < Odom back then (I doubt this was the matchup), and now? Iguodala > Odom |
No debating that Iggy is a better player than Odom at this point. He's one of my favorites. But whatever the case, Igoudala struggled in those games and didn't hurt us. Neither did their shooting guard, Korver. Odom was guarding one of those two.
| Mike@LG wrote: | | Deng and Noccioni are better now than they were then. |
You could make an argument that Deng is a better player than Odom at this point, but not Nocioni. And personally I still think that Odom is the better player, or that they are about even. I might have traded Odom for Deng though because of Deng's upside and the fact that I think he is a guy who could play with 3 other stars without ego issues. But they were decent players back then. Nocioni averaged 13.1 points 6.1 rebounds on 46.1% shooting and 39.1% three point shooting, but he only cored 13 pionts combined in two games against Odom while shooting 6-19. Deng shot 5-14.
| Mike@LG wrote: | | Same with RJ. |
He averaged 19.3 points on 49.3% shooting that season. Odom held him to 10 points on 2-6. The point here is defense. People keep harping that Odom can't defend small forwards and is going to be a weak link. But this is him in his matchups with other top small forwards, he defended well for the most part and he outplayed them more often than not.
| Mike@LG wrote: | | Gino wasn't starting in '05-'06. He was coming off the bench and getting big minutes. Shockingly, Odom's assignment was Nazr Mohammed and Rasho Nesterovic so that Kwame/Mihm could contain Duncan. |
He started in these games, actually. This was before he moved to the bench full time. He played in 65 games that season and started 56 of them, including the match ups vs. the Lakers. So that means that Cook was guarding Rasho or Nazr, or that Cook was guarding Bowen or Ginobili.
| Mike@LG wrote: | | Dirk plays PF anyway and Odom definitely didn't contain him last year, even though that was his primary matchup. |
Exactly, which meant that either Kobe or Odom was guarding Howard, who struggled badly in those games. If Kobe was guarding Howard that would have meant Odom had to guard Terry.
| Mike@LG wrote: | | Those previous statistics don't account for the significant improvement of some of those players, and in some cases clearly surpassing Odom's offensive abilities in the past 3 years. |
It shows one thing, he wasn't getting torched at the small forward defensively. As a small forward he may have averaged lower stats than he did as a power forward, but he held his opponents in check better too. Hard to argue with a 12.7 PER and a 45% efG against. Odom, as our fourth option, doesn't need to completely outplay other teams first or second options for us to be successful. Even if he gets outplayed by them, if he is containing them and holding them under their averages, while giving us something on the other end, then we win. Because I can't see other teams doing the same against our three stars.
| Mike@LG wrote: | | He had his chance then, didn't succeed, so why should I expect the same level of play, or better, now? |
As our starting small forward Odom's numbers during those months:
November: 15.2 points, 10.1 rebuonds, 5.0 assists, 1.85 steals, 0.62 blocks
December: 14.0 points, 8.9 rebounds, 5.6 assists, 0.56 steals, 1.25 blocks
January: 13.4 points, 9.5 rebounds, 5.6 assists, 0.67 steals, 0.87 blocks
February: 13.0 points, 9.0 rebounds, 5.2 assists, 0.55 steals, 0.64 blocks
----Mid-march he moves to be starting power forward becuase Mihm gets injured---
March: 17.2 points 8.4 rebounds, 5.8 assists, 1.24 steals, 0.59 blocks
April: 16.0 points, 10 rebounds, 6.1 assists, 0.63 stelas, 0.75 blocks
So how did he fail? He scored less points. He rebounded well, he assisted well. He defended very well and held his man in check, which makes up for the 2-3 less points a game he was scoring. Now if you consider the other options we have out there for scoring (that we didn't have back then), and the fact that Odom seems to play better without the pressure of being a second option, why wouldn't he be able to return to the small forward?
Now you can argue that we should trade him for Marion or someone else, and maybe your right. But to me, I can't accept an argument that Odom is not capable of being our small forward. And there are very few stars in this league who would be content to play on a team with three other stars and not worry about his scoring, and I can't think of any who are available. He's a glue guy in the locker room, his teammates like him. So why the urgency to trade him? And my guess is the front office feels exactly the same way. Because if Odom, Bynum and Pau can play together, their size gives us an advantage that we couldn't from any other player in the league. Odom's ballhandling helps keep Kobe fresh, not many other guys we could bring in at that position who would accomplish the same goal. Unless someone dangles something where we come out ahead, Odom is our starting small forward at the start of the season.
Last edited by J.C. Smith on Mon Aug 18, 2008 3:23 am; edited 1 time in total |
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sAM sHILE
Star Player
Joined: 02 Dec 2007
Posts: 2448
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| Posted: Mon Aug 18, 2008 12:47 am Post subject: |
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| J.C. Smith wrote: | But honestly, I believe that you have your reasons for disliking Odom, and as a result of that you don't fully appreciate the things that the guy brings to the table or ever objective. Seems you have decided to invalidate most things positive concerning Odom.
A few comments here.
| Mike@LG wrote: | | Melo = Odom back then (Melo was a 2nd year player at the time, not the guy he is now) |
Melo averaged 26.5 points on 48.1% shooting that season. He was already a pretty darn good player.
| Mike@LG wrote: | | Iguodala < Odom back then (I doubt this was the matchup), and now? Iguodala > Odom |
No debating that Iggy is a better player than Odom at this point. He's one of my favorites. But whatever the case, Igoudala struggled in those games and didn't hurt us. Neither did their shooting guard, Korver.
| Mike@LG wrote: | | Deng and Noccioni are better now than they were then. |
You could make an argument that Deng is a better player than Odom at this point, but not Nocioni. And personally I still think that Odom is the better player, or that they are about even. I would have traded Odom for Deng though because of Deng's upside and the fact that I think he is a guy who could play with 3 other stars without ego issues. But they were decent players back then. Nocioni averaged 13.1 points 6.1 rebounds on 46.1% shooting and 39.1% three point shooting, but he only cored 13 pionts combined in two games against Odom while shooting 6-19. Deng averaged 14.3 points on 46.3% shooting against Odom and he scored 14 in game 2 against him, but he shot 5-14.
| Mike@LG wrote: | | Same with RJ. |
He averaged 19.3 points on 49.3% shooting that season. Odom held him to 10 points on 2-6. The point here is defense. People keep harping that Odom can't defend small forwards and is going to be a weak link. But this is him in his matchups with other top small forwards, he defended well for the most part and he outplayed them more often than not.
| Mike@LG wrote: | | Gino wasn't starting in '05-'06. He was coming off the bench and getting big minutes. Shockingly, Odom's assignment was Nazr Mohammed and Rasho Nesterovic so that Kwame/Mihm could contain Duncan. |
He started in these games, actually. This was before he moved to the bench full time. He played in 65 games that season and started 56 of them, including the match ups vs. the Lakers. So that means that Cook was guarding Rasho or Nazr, or that Cook was guarding Bowen or Ginobili.
| Mike@LG wrote: | | Dirk plays PF anyway and Odom definitely didn't contain him last year, even though that was his primary matchup. |
Exactly, which meant that either Kobe or Odom was guarding Howard, who struggled badly in those games. If Kobe was guarding Howard that would have meant Odom had to guard Terry.
| Mike@LG wrote: | | Those previous statistics don't account for the significant improvement of some of those players, and in some cases clearly surpassing Odom's offensive abilities in the past 3 years. |
It shows one thing, he wasn't getting torched at the small forward defensively. As a small forward he may have averaged lower stats than he did as a power forward, but he held his opponents in check better too. Hard to argue with a 12.7 PER and a 45% efG against. Odom, as our fourth option, doesn't need to completely outplay other teams first or second options for us to be successful. Even if he gets outplayed by them, if he is containing them and holding them under their averages, while giving us something on the other end, then we win. Because I can't see other teams doing the same against our three stars.
| Mike@LG wrote: | | He had his chance then, didn't succeed, so why should I expect the same level of play, or better, now? |
As our starting small forward Odom's numbers during those months:
November: 15.2 points, 10.1 rebuonds, 5.0 assists, 1.85 steals, 0.62 blocks
December: 14.0 points, 8.9 rebounds, 5.6 assists, 0.56 steals, 1.25 blocks
January: 13.4 points, 9.5 rebounds, 5.6 assists, 0.67 steals, 0.87 blocks
February: 13.0 points, 9.0 rebounds, 5.2 assists, 0.55 steals, 0.64 blocks
----Mid-march he moves to be starting power forward becuase Mihm gets injured---
March: 17.2 points 8.4 rebounds, 5.8 assists, 1.24 steals, 0.59 blocks
April: 16.0 points, 10 rebounds, 6.1 assists, 0.63 stelas, 0.75 blocks
So you tell me Mike, how did he fail? He scored less points. He rebounded well, he assisted well. He defended very well and held his man in check, which makes up for the 2-3 less points a game he was scoring. Now if you consider the other options we have out there for scoring (that we didn't have back then), and the fact that Odom seems to play better without the pressure of being a second option, why wouldn't he be able to return to the small forward?
Now you can argue that we should trade him for Marion or someone else, and maybe your right. But to me, I can't accept an argument that Odom is not capable of being our small forward. And there are very few stars in this league who would be content to play on a team with three other stars and not worry about his scoring, and I can't think of any who are available. He's a glue guy in the locker room, his teammates like him. So why the urgency to trade him? And my guess is the front office feels exactly the same way. Because if Odom, Bynum and Pau can play together, their size gives us an advantage that we couldn't from any other player in the league. Odom's ballhandling helps keep Kobe fresh, not many other guys we could bring in at that position who would accomplish the same goal. Unless someone dangles something where we come out ahead, Odom is our starting small forward at the start of the season. |
Ya, In addition Odom has matured and been injury and grief free for a bit. Odoms 1st 4 years smokes Ariza's 1st 4 years. Is he equal to the All-star Sf's no. He is a better than most of the non-allstar players? Can you honestly say no?
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revgen
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Joined: 23 Jul 2006
Posts: 10220
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| Posted: Mon Aug 18, 2008 1:07 am Post subject: |
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No. He's a good defender, and we have plenty of scorers in the starting lineup. But, as long as we have Lamar, we'll try to see how he can fit into the starting unit with Pau, Drew, and Kobe before we experiment with Ariza.
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revgen
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Posts: 10220
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| Posted: Mon Aug 18, 2008 1:12 am Post subject: |
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| j. shuttlesworth wrote: | | id rather have bynum off the bench. with his injury, id rather reform the great bench mob again (lakers bench was no 1 in the league in scoring w/him) |
Pau would not agree with you.
Kobe would not agree with you.
And Drew definitely would not agree with you.
Pau has stated many times to reporters that he prefers playing PF. Are we going to have Mihm playing C to keep Bynum on the bench? Hell no.
Kobe has mentioned that Bynum's presence in the middle was a missing piece after we lost the Finals. I doubt he'd be happy if Mihm was starting.
Drew does not have any intentions of being a bench player anymore. If we bench him, he'll be gone after next season. Guaranteed.
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Mike@LG
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Joined: 10 Apr 2001
Posts: 65135
Location: Orange County, CA
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| Posted: Mon Aug 18, 2008 4:51 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
So you tell me Mike, how did he fail? He scored less points. He rebounded well, he assisted well. He defended very well and held his man in check, which makes up for the 2-3 less points a game he was scoring. Now if you consider the other options we have out there for scoring (that we didn't have back then), and the fact that Odom seems to play better without the pressure of being a second option, why wouldn't he be able to return to the small forward?
Now you can argue that we should trade him for Marion or someone else, and maybe your right. But to me, I can't accept an argument that Odom is not capable of being our small forward. And there are very few stars in this league who would be content to play on a team with three other stars and not worry about his scoring, and I can't think of any who are available. He's a glue guy in the locker room, his teammates like him. So why the urgency to trade him? And my guess is the front office feels exactly the same way. Because if Odom, Bynum and Pau can play together, their size gives us an advantage that we couldn't from any other player in the league. Odom's ballhandling helps keep Kobe fresh, not many other guys we could bring in at that position who would accomplish the same goal. Unless someone dangles something where we come out ahead, Odom is our starting small forward at the start of the season.
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Just am not confident given that the past 3 seasons he has always been the same player, slowly getting demoted down offensive team order.
To me it just shows a lack of responsibility for himself.
Those games where he was just "2-3 points less" were when he was a 2nd scoring option. He didn't take it upon himself to widen the gap and further improve the team.
I don't even agree that giving up eFG% of 45% is "good". Why? Almost the entire league of swingmen shoots around that percentage anyway. Barely a 1-2% difference? It tells me that defensively, he's not having a serious impact either.
Just the same thing. Rebounding (which Gasol and Bynum do), ball-handling... That's primarily it. He doesn't fulfill a team weakness greatly, just puts it on life support, like his perimeter game and defensively.
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THE_SHOES
Retired Number
Joined: 12 Apr 2001
Posts: 29556
Location: Taiwan
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| Posted: Mon Aug 18, 2008 5:31 am Post subject: |
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| sAM sHILE wrote: | | The standards need to be the same for all players not higher ones for Odom. Mostly it is a team game. Odom did real good at the 3 (2005-2006) considering he had to play mulitple positions with an average, often injured, team. Anything less is an agenda to invalidate him one more time. |
Just checking by, but wanted to say sAM this is the gospel truth...
Fans are so worried about Odoms failures, and haven't even considered where the Lakers were really eaten up for the past Phil Jackson era period...
The 1&2 are the biggest opposition productions damned near each,and every game... This sudden emphasis on Odom not being able to defend at the 3 is just continued scapegoating...
If anything we just got better by having a quicker, more efficient 3 than we've have had that plays good, to great team d, right along with respectable man to man, and will if anythng be a major factor in keeping Gasol, and Socks out of constant foul trouble with what I anticipate will be an even quicker ability with the weight loss, and speed work to respond to perimeter leaks with the length of of a big and the agility of cat.
But hey, I'm just dropping in... The days are counting down...
Soon...
The bashing will be met with some serious surprise...
Lamar Odom wants to continue to be a Laker... He'll deliver...
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