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babyskyhook
Franchise Player
Joined: 15 Jul 2009
Posts: 18492
Location: The Garden Island
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 Posted: Thu Jan 06, 2011 3:14 pm Post subject: |
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| DancingBarry wrote: | | babyskyhook wrote: | | Scarab wrote: | | babyskyhook wrote: | | Klone_dd wrote: |
After so many years, why can't the Lakers handle the zone? Not one pass to the high post or the low post. No dribble penetration. Toss it around the perimeter and hoist a 3. The triangle becomes a trapezoid. And you know, they're going to see a lot of it soon. |
I also find it amazing that at this point they still have as much trouble against the zone aa they do. It's baffling- they should have if figured ou by now. |
I have always found this question funny. The Zone is the smartest defense there is. Celtics play it almost exclusively.
That being said there are 2 reasons why the Lakers in particular struggle against the zone.
1. The triangle was designed to be played against man to man. People have to realize that the zone defense has not been in the NBA that long.
2. To beat the zone you have to attack it in the middle, and make jump shots. Last night Phoenix was completely sagging off Artest (hence why he had 5 seconds to shoot) and stoping the post entry passes.
Now, Kobe and Lamar are really are only 2 threats when it comes to going into the middle of the zone and making the d collaps (we are limited in our play-makers to be honest). Even when attacking the zone people have to hit their Jump shots. Gasol could not hit the 15 footer yesterday, and lets be honest, we never know what we are gonna get from our shooters.
Now the Zone does come with its weaknesses too though. The zone, many times forces big men to play away from the basket and so it relies on their guards to do a fair amount of Rebounding. This means that our big men should and could take advantage and crash the boards. THe key to that is you must box out their perimeter players. |
I fault the staff as much as the players. Zone has been legal in the NBA for five years, and it's being played by more teams more often. Dallas is now using it a majority of the time. Mil also uses it a lot.
And other teams have seen how the Lakers struggle vs zone, so they will be getting a lot of zone until they show they can consistently beat it.
They eventually seem to adjust, but it takes way too long a lot of the time, and that is on the staff as well as players. |
Regarding the zone discussion... I thought last night was more of a problem switching gears against the zone than anything, which plagues the team quite a bit. The Suns waited to use it so that the Lakers wouldn't eventually adjust in time and that's really what happened. The Lakers have actually taken apart some zones this year quite well in some games. They've worked the ball inside, kicked out for open threes, crashed the boards...they just settled last night instead of flexing their brain muscles. No back screens, no ball reverses, no overloads, none of the basics to get into the middle of the zone. Once they start to get into their minds how they should attack it, they've done well with it this year...but that jumpstart to make that happen is often slow coming with Phil's triangle oriented teams. |
That delay is exactly what I'm talking about.
It amazes me that after seeing as much zone over the last couple of years as they have that the team still takes so long to adjust and run their counters.
You would think it would be second nature by now that when they see zone, they start attacking it correctly immediately, as it's not like it's a big secret what works against a zone and what fails against a zone.
And yet they can be hung up by a zone for most of a quarter some nights.
Truly baffling. |
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10scott10
Star Player
Joined: 17 May 2006
Posts: 7428
Location: Making the games you play
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| Posted: Thu Jan 06, 2011 3:47 pm Post subject: |
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Phil has said in the standard post practice interviews on numerous occasions over the past several years about working the offense to counter the zone.
The main problem is that when the team sees a zone, they stop running the offense. However, the key to beating the zone is to just run the triangle. Get the ball to the high or low post, and cut from there. The zone will still react to those things, and will leave people open.
Instead they just pass the ball around the outside becuase they have trouble passing the ball inside when Pau or Bynum or Odom or ... is being fronted like teams frequently do when running a zone. |
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Mel Rose
Star Player
Joined: 25 Sep 2004
Posts: 1067
Location: Hollywood
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| Posted: Thu Jan 06, 2011 4:06 pm Post subject: |
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| DancingBarry wrote: | | babyskyhook wrote: | | Scarab wrote: | | babyskyhook wrote: | | Klone_dd wrote: |
After so many years, why can't the Lakers handle the zone? Not one pass to the high post or the low post. No dribble penetration. Toss it around the perimeter and hoist a 3. The triangle becomes a trapezoid. And you know, they're going to see a lot of it soon. |
I also find it amazing that at this point they still have as much trouble against the zone aa they do. It's baffling- they should have if figured ou by now. |
I have always found this question funny. The Zone is the smartest defense there is. Celtics play it almost exclusively.
That being said there are 2 reasons why the Lakers in particular struggle against the zone.
1. The triangle was designed to be played against man to man. People have to realize that the zone defense has not been in the NBA that long.
2. To beat the zone you have to attack it in the middle, and make jump shots. Last night Phoenix was completely sagging off Artest (hence why he had 5 seconds to shoot) and stoping the post entry passes.
Now, Kobe and Lamar are really are only 2 threats when it comes to going into the middle of the zone and making the d collaps (we are limited in our play-makers to be honest). Even when attacking the zone people have to hit their Jump shots. Gasol could not hit the 15 footer yesterday, and lets be honest, we never know what we are gonna get from our shooters.
Now the Zone does come with its weaknesses too though. The zone, many times forces big men to play away from the basket and so it relies on their guards to do a fair amount of Rebounding. This means that our big men should and could take advantage and crash the boards. THe key to that is you must box out their perimeter players. |
I fault the staff as much as the players. Zone has been legal in the NBA for five years, and it's being played by more teams more often. Dallas is now using it a majority of the time. Mil also uses it a lot.
And other teams have seen how the Lakers struggle vs zone, so they will be getting a lot of zone until they show they can consistently beat it.
They eventually seem to adjust, but it takes way too long a lot of the time, and that is on the staff as well as players. |
Regarding the zone discussion... I thought last night was more of a problem switching gears against the zone than anything, which plagues the team quite a bit. The Suns waited to use it so that the Lakers wouldn't eventually adjust in time and that's really what happened. The Lakers have actually taken apart some zones this year quite well in some games. They've worked the ball inside, kicked out for open threes, crashed the boards...they just settled last night instead of flexing their brain muscles. No back screens, no ball reverses, no overloads, none of the basics to get into the middle of the zone. Once they start to get into their minds how they should attack it, they've done well with it this year...but that jumpstart to make that happen is often slow coming with Phil's triangle oriented teams. |
I think Lakers felt they had enough of a lead to bother adjusting, hence going for dagger jumpers instead of working the offense. Lazy. It almost cost them...
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Tony Almeida
Retired
Joined: 05 Jan 2006
Posts: 12072
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| Posted: Fri Jan 07, 2011 9:36 am Post subject: |
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| DancingBarry wrote: |
I think the shaky FT shooting is a pretty tell tale sign that the fingers are affecting his touch. He went through the same thing last year with the finger injury until he made some adjustments. The ball has also been slipping out of his grip quite a bit more, too. |
Indeed, his FT shooting has been really off. 70% the past 5 games.
| Quote: | | I think mental fatigue are probably the words to describe it. |
Yeah, I went with mentally disengaged or detached to describe his lethargic play because to me, it seems like he's just not into the game, and it's mostly because he chooses to play this way. It's been like this for a while now, and it's something that he has to get through. He may have hit the wall mentally, but I find it incredibly frustrating watching his activity level on the court. He's playing like he's stuck in mud, and isn't willing to get out just yet. |
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mhan00
Retired Number
Joined: 13 Apr 2001
Posts: 32074
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| Posted: Fri Jan 07, 2011 10:59 am Post subject: |
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best thing about the game: andrew bynum having someone fall into his knee, and have his brace break instead of his knee. bullet dodged.
most worrisome thing of the game: kobe bryant doing a standard head fake en route to what should be an easy score, and having the ball just slip right out of his hands. |
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