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K2 Franchise Player
Joined: 25 Dec 2011 Posts: 23529
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Posted: Tue Aug 13, 2019 9:43 pm Post subject: |
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adkindo wrote: | lakersken80 wrote: | The point is the CCP could care less about the rights of Hong Kongers...the only reason they are exercising restraint is that they eventually want to put Taiwan back into the fold. |
Yeah, I suspect from a global perspective, it is not a huge deal if China takes full control of Hong Kong via mild force. I am just not sure anyone has a strong enough interest in Honk Kong. I think countries around the globe are more concerned about Taiwans response to any action China takes in Hong Kong. That is where the unknown and potentially very dangerous events could take place. |
Sadly, Taiwan has enough problems on their own with no clear indication where next January's elections will take them. While they're not in an ideal position to respond to China militarily, they have been offering words of support and an opportunity for HKers to seek asylum across the strait. |
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SGV-Laker fan Star Player
Joined: 23 May 2013 Posts: 8923
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Posted: Wed Aug 14, 2019 6:20 am Post subject: |
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okay it started with peaceful gathering against the extradition law, that i understand. but what are the demands now? separate from china completely, full democracy? how freaking naive is that? if it's that easy, then we wouldn't have the freaking cold war, just violent protest would've done it. what's the end game here for the protesters? there's no clear demand what they actually want. |
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angrypuppy Retired Number
Joined: 13 Apr 2001 Posts: 32768
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Posted: Wed Aug 14, 2019 8:02 am Post subject: |
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SGV-Laker fan wrote: | okay it started with peaceful gathering against the extradition law, that i understand. but what are the demands now? separate from china completely, full democracy? how freaking naive is that? if it's that easy, then we wouldn't have the freaking cold war, just violent protest would've done it. what's the end game here for the protesters? there's no clear demand what they actually want. |
They want elections without interference from Beijing. They want a press that isn't censored, something that was taken away. They want to keep an independent judiciary system, something they see eroding. They're concerned about the government surveillance systems on the Mainland spreading to Hong Kong. And of course, they want affordable housing, as the tracts cleared are being developed for the wealthy, who nowadays emanate from the Mainland.
I don't see their demands as unreasonable. What I do see is the PRC attempting to control the narrative, blaming it solely on the housing problem, and accusing the US as interfering with their domestic affairs. That's laughable, it's just the PRC playing the blame game by pretending they are not the source of the problems. Also laughable is the PRC blaming the protestors for not having a coherent set of demands. The minute a leader emerges, he or she will be arrested, so the ability to build and organize effective opposition and an organized set of demands is impossible. |
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SGV-Laker fan Star Player
Joined: 23 May 2013 Posts: 8923
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Posted: Wed Aug 14, 2019 8:42 am Post subject: |
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angrypuppy wrote: | SGV-Laker fan wrote: | okay it started with peaceful gathering against the extradition law, that i understand. but what are the demands now? separate from china completely, full democracy? how freaking naive is that? if it's that easy, then we wouldn't have the freaking cold war, just violent protest would've done it. what's the end game here for the protesters? there's no clear demand what they actually want. |
They want elections without interference from Beijing. They want a press that isn't censored, something that was taken away. They want to keep an independent judiciary system, something they see eroding. They're concerned about the government surveillance systems on the Mainland spreading to Hong Kong. And of course, they want affordable housing, as the tracts cleared are being developed for the wealthy, who nowadays emanate from the Mainland.
I don't see their demands as unreasonable. What I do see is the PRC attempting to control the narrative, blaming it solely on the housing problem, and accusing the US as interfering with their domestic affairs. That's laughable, it's just the PRC playing the blame game by pretending they are not the source of the problems. Also laughable is the PRC blaming the protestors for not having a coherent set of demands. The minute a leader emerges, he or she will be arrested, so the ability to build and organize effective opposition and an organized set of demands is impossible. |
the problems you mentioned are real, and have been existing to no one's surprise ever since 1997. the question is why now? it wasn't like PRC just passed some new laws to further stripping away HK's democracy. the timing and the magnitude of the protests are very interesting. i was in HK for a few days toward the end of my Asia trip last month, common people there are very friendly to the mainlanders (since i went with a friend from mainland china), from restaurant servers, people whom we asked directions on the street to cab/Uber drivers. the protesters we're seeing right now are totally well organized, does not look like the random common folks who voluntary going to these protests. who are the organizers? that's anyone's guess. |
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lakersken80 Retired Number
Joined: 12 Aug 2009 Posts: 38862
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Posted: Wed Aug 14, 2019 8:51 am Post subject: |
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If 2014 is any indication the PRC will just wait out the protests. Time is on their side and they haven't given any concessions. Unfortunately for the protestors they have few if any tools to force the PRC to meet their demands. |
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angrypuppy Retired Number
Joined: 13 Apr 2001 Posts: 32768
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Posted: Wed Aug 14, 2019 9:56 am Post subject: |
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SGV-Laker fan wrote: | angrypuppy wrote: | SGV-Laker fan wrote: | okay it started with peaceful gathering against the extradition law, that i understand. but what are the demands now? separate from china completely, full democracy? how freaking naive is that? if it's that easy, then we wouldn't have the freaking cold war, just violent protest would've done it. what's the end game here for the protesters? there's no clear demand what they actually want. |
They want elections without interference from Beijing. They want a press that isn't censored, something that was taken away. They want to keep an independent judiciary system, something they see eroding. They're concerned about the government surveillance systems on the Mainland spreading to Hong Kong. And of course, they want affordable housing, as the tracts cleared are being developed for the wealthy, who nowadays emanate from the Mainland.
I don't see their demands as unreasonable. What I do see is the PRC attempting to control the narrative, blaming it solely on the housing problem, and accusing the US as interfering with their domestic affairs. That's laughable, it's just the PRC playing the blame game by pretending they are not the source of the problems. Also laughable is the PRC blaming the protestors for not having a coherent set of demands. The minute a leader emerges, he or she will be arrested, so the ability to build and organize effective opposition and an organized set of demands is impossible. |
the problems you mentioned are real, and have been existing to no one's surprise ever since 1997. the question is why now? it wasn't like PRC just passed some new laws to further stripping away HK's democracy. the timing and the magnitude of the protests are very interesting. i was in HK for a few days toward the end of my Asia trip last month, common people there are very friendly to the mainlanders (since i went with a friend from mainland china), from restaurant servers, people whom we asked directions on the street to cab/Uber drivers. the protesters we're seeing right now are totally well organized, does not look like the random common folks who voluntary going to these protests. who are the organizers? that's anyone's guess. |
I've been going to Hong Kong fairly regularly for years, well before 1997. And I used to do business in the Mainland, not only in the largest cities but also the hinterlands where you won't see tourists.
Those problems are all recent, with the exception of housing which has gotten much worse. In the old days, middle class and upper middle class kids lived with their folks until they were old enough to buy their own place. That doesn't happen anymore, housing is now too expensive, thanks to the limited development and flooding of the residential market from Mainlanders. The newspapers weren't censored, and you could amble over to a bookstore or magazine shop and buy anything, that certainly isn't the case anymore.
In 1997, the HK population was jubilant. They didn't want to be a Brit colony, who really wants to be a colony with a power that you don't even share an ethnicity. I warned some of my HK friends that they had far less in common with the Mainlanders; no shared language, far less shared culture than they realized, and most had never been to the Mainland.
Fast forward, many (perhaps most) view the reunification with trepidation. They fret that HK's glory days are behind them now, as Shanghai is being promoted by the Mainland as the financial capital, not HK. Many are far less than enthralled with the Big Green (loose homonym for Mainlander in Cantonese) than you realize. |
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SGV-Laker fan Star Player
Joined: 23 May 2013 Posts: 8923
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Posted: Wed Aug 14, 2019 10:17 am Post subject: |
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angrypuppy wrote: | SGV-Laker fan wrote: | angrypuppy wrote: | SGV-Laker fan wrote: | okay it started with peaceful gathering against the extradition law, that i understand. but what are the demands now? separate from china completely, full democracy? how freaking naive is that? if it's that easy, then we wouldn't have the freaking cold war, just violent protest would've done it. what's the end game here for the protesters? there's no clear demand what they actually want. |
They want elections without interference from Beijing. They want a press that isn't censored, something that was taken away. They want to keep an independent judiciary system, something they see eroding. They're concerned about the government surveillance systems on the Mainland spreading to Hong Kong. And of course, they want affordable housing, as the tracts cleared are being developed for the wealthy, who nowadays emanate from the Mainland.
I don't see their demands as unreasonable. What I do see is the PRC attempting to control the narrative, blaming it solely on the housing problem, and accusing the US as interfering with their domestic affairs. That's laughable, it's just the PRC playing the blame game by pretending they are not the source of the problems. Also laughable is the PRC blaming the protestors for not having a coherent set of demands. The minute a leader emerges, he or she will be arrested, so the ability to build and organize effective opposition and an organized set of demands is impossible. |
the problems you mentioned are real, and have been existing to no one's surprise ever since 1997. the question is why now? it wasn't like PRC just passed some new laws to further stripping away HK's democracy. the timing and the magnitude of the protests are very interesting. i was in HK for a few days toward the end of my Asia trip last month, common people there are very friendly to the mainlanders (since i went with a friend from mainland china), from restaurant servers, people whom we asked directions on the street to cab/Uber drivers. the protesters we're seeing right now are totally well organized, does not look like the random common folks who voluntary going to these protests. who are the organizers? that's anyone's guess. |
I've been going to Hong Kong fairly regularly for years, well before 1997. And I used to do business in the Mainland, not only in the largest cities but also the hinterlands where you won't see tourists.
Those problems are all recent, with the exception of housing which has gotten much worse. In the old days, middle class and upper middle class kids lived with their folks until they were old enough to buy their own place. That doesn't happen anymore, housing is now too expensive, thanks to the limited development and flooding of the residential market from Mainlanders. The newspapers weren't censored, and you could amble over to a bookstore or magazine shop and buy anything, that certainly isn't the case anymore.
In 1997, the HK population was jubilant. They didn't want to be a Brit colony, who really wants to be a colony with a power that you don't even share an ethnicity. I warned some of my HK friends that they had far less in common with the Mainlanders; no shared language, far less shared culture than they realized, and most had never been to the Mainland.
Fast forward, many (perhaps most) view the reunification with trepidation. They fret that HK's glory days are behind them now, as Shanghai is being promoted by the Mainland as the financial capital, not HK. Many are far less than enthralled with the Big Green (loose homonym for Mainlander in Cantonese) than you realize. |
i'm sure we can all agree that HK younger generation is feeling the middle child syndrome. of course PRC government favors mainland cities over HK. the only way PRC will really embrace HK will be when they fully integrate HK with china in year 2047. until then, HK is still from outside looking in in terms of government favorable policies. it's tough, my friend who lives in Shenzhen told me many working class in HK are buying houses in SZ because for the same price they have buy a 3 br apartment, whereas in HK that can only get you a studio. |
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angrypuppy Retired Number
Joined: 13 Apr 2001 Posts: 32768
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Posted: Thu Aug 15, 2019 6:00 am Post subject: |
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The root of the problem is despotic control of the HK population. The youth isn't just protesting the housing situation, they are protesting both the loss of certain freedoms they enjoyed, and they are protesting the anticipated loss of their remaining freedoms as the PRC seizes control.
But that's not what you hear from the government-controlled press. The government-controlled press mentions the housing problem, but refuses to acknowledge the loss of liberty within the formerly free city-state. The twin concepts of democracy and freedom scares the hell out out of the PRC leadership. The loss of a free press means that the government is attempting to control and manipulate the narrative. |
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lakersken80 Retired Number
Joined: 12 Aug 2009 Posts: 38862
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Posted: Thu Aug 15, 2019 8:00 am Post subject: |
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angrypuppy wrote: | The root of the problem is despotic control of the HK population. The youth isn't just protesting the housing situation, they are protesting both the loss of certain freedoms they enjoyed, and they are protesting the anticipated loss of their remaining freedoms as the PRC seizes control.
But that's not what you hear from the government-controlled press. The government-controlled press mentions the housing problem, but refuses to acknowledge the loss of liberty within the formerly free city-state. The twin concepts of democracy and freedom scares the hell out out of the PRC leadership. The loss of a free press means that the government is attempting to control and manipulate the narrative. |
Unfortunately for HK, they aren't a big of the threat to the CCP compared to the student protesters in 1989. These were people who spoke the same dialect of Chinese as the powers to be, who were standing outside of the seat of power, and who personally met with the CCP officials in charge months before the tanks rolled over them. Since HK is pretty much sealed off from the rest of China they can mitigate these crazy ideas of democracy and people power. |
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SGV-Laker fan Star Player
Joined: 23 May 2013 Posts: 8923
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Posted: Thu Aug 15, 2019 12:24 pm Post subject: |
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lakersken80 wrote: | angrypuppy wrote: | The root of the problem is despotic control of the HK population. The youth isn't just protesting the housing situation, they are protesting both the loss of certain freedoms they enjoyed, and they are protesting the anticipated loss of their remaining freedoms as the PRC seizes control.
But that's not what you hear from the government-controlled press. The government-controlled press mentions the housing problem, but refuses to acknowledge the loss of liberty within the formerly free city-state. The twin concepts of democracy and freedom scares the hell out out of the PRC leadership. The loss of a free press means that the government is attempting to control and manipulate the narrative. |
Unfortunately for HK, they aren't a big of the threat to the CCP compared to the student protesters in 1989. These were people who spoke the same dialect of Chinese as the powers to be, who were standing outside of the seat of power, and who personally met with the CCP officials in charge months before the tanks rolled over them. Since HK is pretty much sealed off from the rest of China they can mitigate these crazy ideas of democracy and people power. |
agreed, also HK is not as important in today's world as it used to be 10, 20 years ago. sure it's still the financial hub of Asia, but for how long? China does not need HK as much as HK needs China's natural resources. |
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angrypuppy Retired Number
Joined: 13 Apr 2001 Posts: 32768
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Posted: Thu Aug 15, 2019 12:58 pm Post subject: |
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SGV-Laker fan wrote: | lakersken80 wrote: | angrypuppy wrote: | The root of the problem is despotic control of the HK population. The youth isn't just protesting the housing situation, they are protesting both the loss of certain freedoms they enjoyed, and they are protesting the anticipated loss of their remaining freedoms as the PRC seizes control.
But that's not what you hear from the government-controlled press. The government-controlled press mentions the housing problem, but refuses to acknowledge the loss of liberty within the formerly free city-state. The twin concepts of democracy and freedom scares the hell out out of the PRC leadership. The loss of a free press means that the government is attempting to control and manipulate the narrative. |
Unfortunately for HK, they aren't a big of the threat to the CCP compared to the student protesters in 1989. These were people who spoke the same dialect of Chinese as the powers to be, who were standing outside of the seat of power, and who personally met with the CCP officials in charge months before the tanks rolled over them. Since HK is pretty much sealed off from the rest of China they can mitigate these crazy ideas of democracy and people power. |
agreed, also HK is not as important in today's world as it used to be 10, 20 years ago. sure it's still the financial hub of Asia, but for how long? China does not need HK as much as HK needs China's natural resources. |
And what would those natural resources be? HK doesn't need China.
Except for the Japanese invasion during WWII, Hong Kong did quite well during the 99 year lease, all without any natural resources from China. |
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K2 Franchise Player
Joined: 25 Dec 2011 Posts: 23529
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Posted: Thu Aug 15, 2019 4:14 pm Post subject: |
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^I was sort of curious about HK's natural resources and this came up on an initial search. Not too familiar with Foreign Policy Magazine's politics, however they seem to have an eye-opening reference in regards to one natural resource.
Quote: | During the Sino-British negotiations over Hong Kong’s sovereignty, which began in 1982, water supply ranked high on the list of concerns. (Dependence on water from the mainland was 34 percent in 1980.) Percy Cradock, then the British ambassador to China and who was involved in the negotiations, warned Prime Minister Margaret Thatcher that the British had little bargaining power because Hong Kong so heavily relied on the mainland for fresh water. The British eventually made significant concessions and gave up all of their rights to Hong Kong. |
https://foreignpolicy.com/2014/08/21/hong-kongs-inconvenient-truth/ |
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lakersken80 Retired Number
Joined: 12 Aug 2009 Posts: 38862
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Posted: Thu Aug 15, 2019 4:17 pm Post subject: |
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Without China's fresh water and power generation, HK is screwed. So, yes China does hold all the cards to HK's future. HK was never truly self reliant from China in the British imperalistic days. |
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ExPatLkrFan Star Player
Joined: 29 Jul 2004 Posts: 3989 Location: Mukdahan, Thailand
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Posted: Thu Aug 15, 2019 4:32 pm Post subject: |
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K2 wrote: | ^I was sort of curious about HK's natural resources and this came up on an initial search. Not too familiar with Foreign Policy Magazine's politics, however they seem to have an eye-opening reference in regards to one natural resource.
Quote: | During the Sino-British negotiations over Hong Kong’s sovereignty, which began in 1982, water supply ranked high on the list of concerns. (Dependence on water from the mainland was 34 percent in 1980.) Percy Cradock, then the British ambassador to China and who was involved in the negotiations, warned Prime Minister Margaret Thatcher that the British had little bargaining power because Hong Kong so heavily relied on the mainland for fresh water. The British eventually made significant concessions and gave up all of their rights to Hong Kong. |
https://foreignpolicy.com/2014/08/21/hong-kongs-inconvenient-truth/ |
Foreign Policy is the official organ of the Council on Foreign Relations. |
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K2 Franchise Player
Joined: 25 Dec 2011 Posts: 23529
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Posted: Thu Aug 15, 2019 5:53 pm Post subject: |
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^Thank you, didn’t realize that, it’s been quite an eye-opening afternoon to say the least. |
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fiendishoc Star Player
Joined: 23 Jun 2005 Posts: 8488 Location: The (real) short corner
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Posted: Thu Aug 22, 2019 1:46 am Post subject: |
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..
Last edited by fiendishoc on Wed Sep 22, 2021 5:29 am; edited 1 time in total |
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ContagiousInspiration Franchise Player
Joined: 07 May 2014 Posts: 13823 Location: Boulder ;)
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Posted: Thu Aug 22, 2019 5:38 am Post subject: |
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This is what happens when pro mainland politicians disguise themselves. Lam is lame.. she should have never allowed China to try and force the bill. |
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SGV-Laker fan Star Player
Joined: 23 May 2013 Posts: 8923
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Posted: Thu Aug 22, 2019 6:08 am Post subject: |
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ContagiousInspiration wrote: | This is what happens when pro mainland politicians disguise themselves. Lam is lame.. she should have never allowed China to try and force the bill. |
what do you guys expect? china totally giving HK autonomous is just naive thinking. definition of autonomous can be vastly different from how we and people in PRC interpret. by their definition HK now is the most autonomous city in PRC, more so than Tabet and XinJiang. |
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fiendishoc Star Player
Joined: 23 Jun 2005 Posts: 8488 Location: The (real) short corner
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Posted: Thu Aug 22, 2019 8:27 am Post subject: |
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The official line is that she pushed the bill completely of her own volition, which no one believes. The PRC may have requested it but I can’t imagine they’re happy with the way she’s gone about the whole process. Seems like they’re OK with her taking the brunt of the pushback so far. |
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lakersken80 Retired Number
Joined: 12 Aug 2009 Posts: 38862
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Posted: Thu Aug 22, 2019 8:35 am Post subject: |
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ContagiousInspiration wrote: | This is what happens when pro mainland politicians disguise themselves. Lam is lame.. she should have never allowed China to try and force the bill. |
The problem is you think that politicians in China are completely independent from the central government. Nothing could be further from the truth, which is they are to incorporate long plans into their governing. China will eventually swallow up Hong Kong, there really is nothing they can do about it. One it is doomed by geography, there is nothing stopping mainlander civilians from taking over the territory, whether buying property or paying higher rent prices. The military advantage unlike Taiwan, there is nothing separating them from China. |
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governator Retired Number
Joined: 28 Jan 2006 Posts: 25138
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Posted: Thu Aug 22, 2019 8:55 am Post subject: |
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China - Tibet, HK
India - Kashmir
Indonesia - Papua
US - bunch of off mainland islands
UK -
Netherland -
None of the territories have a chance against a powerful nation. The last successful ones were South Sudan and East Timor (only after decades of bloodshed) |
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SGV-Laker fan Star Player
Joined: 23 May 2013 Posts: 8923
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Posted: Thu Aug 22, 2019 9:39 am Post subject: |
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governator wrote: | China - Tibet, HK
India - Kashmir
Indonesia - Papua
US - bunch of off mainland islands
UK - Scotland?
Netherland -
None of the territories have a chance against a powerful nation. The last successful ones were South Sudan and East Timor (only after decades of bloodshed) |
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realking24 Star Player
Joined: 12 Dec 2012 Posts: 2203
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Posted: Sun Sep 01, 2019 11:24 am Post subject: |
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HK is being bullied so HK is fighting back. HK is very much against facial recognition that China is trying to force. |
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lakersken80 Retired Number
Joined: 12 Aug 2009 Posts: 38862
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Posted: Sun Sep 01, 2019 2:25 pm Post subject: |
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realking24 wrote: | HK is being bullied so HK is fighting back. HK is very much against facial recognition that China is trying to force. |
I bet the citizens of HK were hoping China was going to turn democratic by the time 2047 rolled around, instead its going the other way. Unfortunately for them I don't see a happy ending considering Beijing would rather let them destroy their city before they give them a single concession. |
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realking24 Star Player
Joined: 12 Dec 2012 Posts: 2203
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Posted: Sun Sep 01, 2019 5:10 pm Post subject: |
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lakersken80 wrote: | realking24 wrote: | HK is being bullied so HK is fighting back. HK is very much against facial recognition that China is trying to force. |
I bet the citizens of HK were hoping China was going to turn democratic by the time 2047 rolled around, instead its going the other way. Unfortunately for them I don't see a happy ending considering Beijing would rather let them destroy their city before they give them a single concession. |
totally sucks. They would be better off with the old British Law |
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