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Omar Little Moderator
Joined: 02 May 2005 Posts: 90324 Location: Formerly Known As 24
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Posted: Thu Jan 21, 2021 2:55 pm Post subject: |
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Baron Von Humongous wrote: | jodeke wrote: | Baron Von Humongous wrote: | jodeke wrote: | At the presser today Dr. Facui said it was comforting to be able to answer questions with scientific evidence without fear of repercussions. It must also be comforting for Jen Psaki to be able to answer questions without lying |
I still think Fauci should be training up his replacement and get a pink slip later this year. |
Why? As a physician with the National Institutes of Health (NIH), Fauci has served American public health in various capacities for more than 50 years, and has been an advisor to every U.S. president since Ronald Reagan. If it ain't broke why fix it? |
It very clearly broke twice under his watch under Reagan and again under Trump. |
The problem here is the political leadership not the organization. Any part of the federal bureaucracy can be compromised if the people in charge and the people who are supposed to check those people are invested in it. _________________ “We must always take sides. Neutrality helps the oppressor, never the victim. Silence encourages the tormentor, never the tormented.” ― Elie Wiesel |
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jodeke Retired Number
Joined: 17 Nov 2007 Posts: 68104 Location: In a world where admitting to not knowing something is considered a great way to learn.
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Posted: Thu Jan 21, 2021 3:05 pm Post subject: |
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Baron Von Humongous wrote: | jodeke wrote: | Baron Von Humongous wrote: | jodeke wrote: | Baron Von Humongous wrote: | jodeke wrote: | At the presser today Dr. Facui said it was comforting to be able to answer questions with scientific evidence without fear of repercussions. It must also be comforting for Jen Psaki to be able to answer questions without lying |
I still think Fauci should be training up his replacement and get a pink slip later this year. |
Why? As a physician with the National Institutes of Health (NIH), Fauci has served American public health in various capacities for more than 50 years, and has been an advisor to every U.S. president since Ronald Reagan. If it ain't broke why fix it? |
It very clearly broke twice under his watch under Reagan and again under Trump. |
Please elaborate. It wasn't broken under Trump. He explained that in the presser today. Did you hear the presser? |
I didn't hear the presser, no. How was it not broken? |
He was under pressure to answer the way Trump wanted him to. He said he can now answer based on scientific information without fear of repercussions.
Do you remember the period Fauci wasn't included in the pressers because he was opposed to Trump's COVID solutions? Blu lite, hydroxychloroquine and such. When he was again included he wasn't asked questions? Now he's free to tell the truth based on science, not Trump's lies.
The same goes for Jen Psaki the press secretary. _________________ Be who you are and say what you feel because those who mind don't matter and those who matter don't mind.
America will never be destroyed from the outside. If we falter and lose our freedoms, it will be because we destroyed ourselves. |
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DancingBarry Editor-in-Chief
Joined: 07 Sep 2001 Posts: 40223 Location: O.C.
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Posted: Thu Jan 21, 2021 3:11 pm Post subject: |
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LarryCoon wrote: |
It takes skepticism and critical thinking -- things that are rarely taught. |
Yeah, I've been thinking that more than ever we really have to start teaching this in school. With all the social media noise, the deepfake tech, and echo chambers that exist and will continue to flourish, we need to help support the next generations' abilities to cut through the noise and to look for trusted sources of information.
It's too easy for not only nutjobs to have a large platform, but also for foreign govt sponsored efforts to impact free countries. If we want freedom/democracy to be healthy here, we need this.
As cultures develop and become more complex, they develop new cancers and threats. We're seeing the results of this cultural cancer and we can't led it spread further without being much more proactive. There definitely needs to be more focus on critical thinking skills. |
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SweetP Star Player
Joined: 23 Jun 2005 Posts: 6054 Location: My own little piece of reality
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Posted: Thu Jan 21, 2021 3:15 pm Post subject: |
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Fauci is a scientist, the science wasn't broken for either HIV (Reagan) or Covid. The implementation and response was broken due to political crap. _________________ “There is always light if only we're brave enough to see it, if only we're brave enough to be it.” --Amanda Gorman |
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FernieBee Star Player
Joined: 17 Nov 2003 Posts: 8033 Location: 921SD
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Posted: Thu Jan 21, 2021 3:20 pm Post subject: |
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I Tweet, therefore I am.
_________________ Garvey, Lopes, Cey, Russell |
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Baron Von Humongous Retired Number
Joined: 02 Jul 2015 Posts: 32979
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Posted: Thu Jan 21, 2021 3:52 pm Post subject: |
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Omar Little wrote: | Baron Von Humongous wrote: | jodeke wrote: | Baron Von Humongous wrote: | jodeke wrote: | At the presser today Dr. Facui said it was comforting to be able to answer questions with scientific evidence without fear of repercussions. It must also be comforting for Jen Psaki to be able to answer questions without lying |
I still think Fauci should be training up his replacement and get a pink slip later this year. |
Why? As a physician with the National Institutes of Health (NIH), Fauci has served American public health in various capacities for more than 50 years, and has been an advisor to every U.S. president since Ronald Reagan. If it ain't broke why fix it? |
It very clearly broke twice under his watch under Reagan and again under Trump. |
The problem here is the political leadership not the organization. Any part of the federal bureaucracy can be compromised if the people in charge and the people who are supposed to check those people are invested in it. |
Remember the Anonymous NYTimes op-ed about how there were adults in the White House keeping things from flying off the rails and it turned out to be that pissant DHS staffer who was part of the child separation policy (amongst other terrible DHS decisions)?
Fauci didn't serve as an agitprop mouthpiece like Birx did, but he became a prop that lent legitimacy to the complete failure from the top of the administration in part because of the same hubris we witnessed from McMaster and other supposed "adults in the room." It's a wholly unfair situation to be placed in, and I likely would cave under such pressure with much lower stakes, but I don't see why he should be rewarded with ongoing employment for compromising himself as a scientist under two different Republican presidents. _________________ Under New Management |
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ribeye Franchise Player
Joined: 10 Nov 2001 Posts: 12642
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Posted: Thu Jan 21, 2021 3:52 pm Post subject: |
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FernieBee wrote: | I Tweet, therefore I am.
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I wish that were true, especially if the corollary were true. _________________ "A metronome keeps time by using a Ringo" |
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Baron Von Humongous Retired Number
Joined: 02 Jul 2015 Posts: 32979
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Posted: Thu Jan 21, 2021 3:53 pm Post subject: |
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jodeke wrote: | Baron Von Humongous wrote: | jodeke wrote: | Baron Von Humongous wrote: | jodeke wrote: | Baron Von Humongous wrote: | jodeke wrote: | At the presser today Dr. Facui said it was comforting to be able to answer questions with scientific evidence without fear of repercussions. It must also be comforting for Jen Psaki to be able to answer questions without lying |
I still think Fauci should be training up his replacement and get a pink slip later this year. |
Why? As a physician with the National Institutes of Health (NIH), Fauci has served American public health in various capacities for more than 50 years, and has been an advisor to every U.S. president since Ronald Reagan. If it ain't broke why fix it? |
It very clearly broke twice under his watch under Reagan and again under Trump. |
Please elaborate. It wasn't broken under Trump. He explained that in the presser today. Did you hear the presser? |
I didn't hear the presser, no. How was it not broken? |
He was under pressure to answer the way Trump wanted him to. He said he can now answer based on scientific information without fear of repercussions.
Do you remember the period Fauci wasn't included in the pressers because he was opposed to Trump's COVID solutions? Blu lite, hydroxychloroquine and such. When he was again included he wasn't asked questions? Now he's free to tell the truth based on science, not Trump's lies.
The same goes for Jen Psaki the press secretary. |
He should've resigned. Instead he posed for magazine covers. _________________ Under New Management |
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LarryCoon Site Staff
Joined: 11 Aug 2002 Posts: 11266
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Posted: Thu Jan 21, 2021 3:58 pm Post subject: |
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Baron Von Humongous wrote: | He should've resigned. |
Question is, would the public have been better served with him in that role, even though he had constraints on what he could say publicly, and some of what he said was either disregarded, twisted or contradicted for ideological or political reasons,
or...
With him not in that role, and replaced by another Trump lackey.
I think it's the former, and I think Fauci thought that as well.
Plus, there's a lot more to the role than press conferences. There's actual medical leadership. Don't throw out the baby (the medical leadership, which is most of the work and also the most significant work) with the bathwater (the press conferences). |
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Omar Little Moderator
Joined: 02 May 2005 Posts: 90324 Location: Formerly Known As 24
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Posted: Thu Jan 21, 2021 4:24 pm Post subject: |
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It’s a tough call, and I respect some of the guys like Mattis who hung in there because they worried what Trump, less restrained by a lackey, might do. The hidden cost of the Trump administration is the hollowed out institutions where people were fired or quit. _________________ “We must always take sides. Neutrality helps the oppressor, never the victim. Silence encourages the tormentor, never the tormented.” ― Elie Wiesel |
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non-player zealot Franchise Player
Joined: 05 Nov 2007 Posts: 21365
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Posted: Thu Jan 21, 2021 4:32 pm Post subject: |
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C M B wrote: | I just finished watching the ceremony. Beautiful speech by the President. Perfectly worded, perfectly delivered...best I've ever seen him. We have a President again!
also...fist bump, fist bump, careful hug, fist bump, then in comes Garth "angel of death" Brooks handing out handshakes and breathy, full-chest hugs to senior citizens like it's a barbecue in 2019. |
I understand being bummed after your guy loses, but at some point, these muhfuhz need to get a muhfuh grip. These people are old fuhs in many cases and they're acting like some kind of Xmas miracle was gonna happen to prevent a President from being sworn in, as if they had never in their lives seen how the entire election works every four fuh'in years. Do these idiots believe in the Tooth Fairy and Santa, too? I could understand fuh'in KIDS acting and thinking this way because they don't know any better, but not some old fuh w/ white hair blubbering about the Devil and all that. It is sweet in any case when they finally come to the realization (like that one gal) that they've beeeeen, Oooooh, I don't knowwww........................................................CONNED!!!!111 They had all been told a million times that Trump was a conman and a lot of them recognized he was a New York financial slimeball of the Gordon Gekko era until they started trusting him. I guess these are a lot of the same people who allowed Jimmy Swaggart to make a return and who give their money to the 700 Club and Jim Bakker. Hurts your brain to think that OLD! fuh'in adults can be this muhfuh'in naive. _________________ GOAT MAGIC REEL
SEDALE TRIBUTE
EDDIE DONX! |
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jodeke Retired Number
Joined: 17 Nov 2007 Posts: 68104 Location: In a world where admitting to not knowing something is considered a great way to learn.
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Posted: Thu Jan 21, 2021 4:47 pm Post subject: |
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Baron Von Humongous wrote: | jodeke wrote: | Baron Von Humongous wrote: | jodeke wrote: | Baron Von Humongous wrote: | jodeke wrote: | Baron Von Humongous wrote: | jodeke wrote: | At the presser today Dr. Facui said it was comforting to be able to answer questions with scientific evidence without fear of repercussions. It must also be comforting for Jen Psaki to be able to answer questions without lying |
I still think Fauci should be training up his replacement and get a pink slip later this year. |
Why? As a physician with the National Institutes of Health (NIH), Fauci has served American public health in various capacities for more than 50 years, and has been an advisor to every U.S. president since Ronald Reagan. If it ain't broke why fix it? |
It very clearly broke twice under his watch under Reagan and again under Trump. |
Please elaborate. It wasn't broken under Trump. He explained that in the presser today. Did you hear the presser? |
I didn't hear the presser, no. How was it not broken? |
He was under pressure to answer the way Trump wanted him to. He said he can now answer based on scientific information without fear of repercussions.
Do you remember the period Fauci wasn't included in the pressers because he was opposed to Trump's COVID solutions? Blu lite, hydroxychloroquine and such. When he was again included he wasn't asked questions? Now he's free to tell the truth based on science, not Trump's lies.
The same goes for Jen Psaki the press secretary. |
He should've resigned. Instead he posed for magazine covers. |
He stayed on board to be the voice of reason. Had he left Trump would have gone the family route and appointed someone in his family to replace him.
As it was he put Pence in charge, a person who had no knowledge of, or how to, handle a pandemic.
Dr Fauci started to distribute informational reports based on science which was why he wasn't included in the pressers for a while. It was rumored Trump was going to fire him but someone in the administration somehow convinced him that would be a bad move.
He posed for magazines is weak and has no merit. _________________ Be who you are and say what you feel because those who mind don't matter and those who matter don't mind.
America will never be destroyed from the outside. If we falter and lose our freedoms, it will be because we destroyed ourselves. |
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Baron Von Humongous Retired Number
Joined: 02 Jul 2015 Posts: 32979
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Posted: Thu Jan 21, 2021 5:10 pm Post subject: |
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LarryCoon wrote: | Baron Von Humongous wrote: | He should've resigned. |
Question is, would the public have been better served with him in that role, even though he had constraints on what he could say publicly, and some of what he said was either disregarded, twisted or contradicted for ideological or political reasons,
or...
With him not in that role, and replaced by another Trump lackey.
I think it's the former, and I think Fauci thought that as well.
Plus, there's a lot more to the role than press conferences. There's actual medical leadership. Don't throw out the baby (the medical leadership, which is most of the work and also the most significant work) with the bathwater (the press conferences). |
I do hope his role is investigated and the American public can see the medical leadership Fauci provided during the pandemic that...what?...prevented more deaths than the 500,000 we're looking at? Improved the vaccine roll-out from horrible to terrible?
How much more harmful would another Trump lackey have been compared to what we've experienced to date? _________________ Under New Management |
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Baron Von Humongous Retired Number
Joined: 02 Jul 2015 Posts: 32979
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Posted: Thu Jan 21, 2021 5:28 pm Post subject: |
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jodeke wrote: | Baron Von Humongous wrote: | jodeke wrote: | Baron Von Humongous wrote: | jodeke wrote: | Baron Von Humongous wrote: | jodeke wrote: | Baron Von Humongous wrote: | jodeke wrote: | At the presser today Dr. Facui said it was comforting to be able to answer questions with scientific evidence without fear of repercussions. It must also be comforting for Jen Psaki to be able to answer questions without lying |
I still think Fauci should be training up his replacement and get a pink slip later this year. |
Why? As a physician with the National Institutes of Health (NIH), Fauci has served American public health in various capacities for more than 50 years, and has been an advisor to every U.S. president since Ronald Reagan. If it ain't broke why fix it? |
It very clearly broke twice under his watch under Reagan and again under Trump. |
Please elaborate. It wasn't broken under Trump. He explained that in the presser today. Did you hear the presser? |
I didn't hear the presser, no. How was it not broken? |
He was under pressure to answer the way Trump wanted him to. He said he can now answer based on scientific information without fear of repercussions.
Do you remember the period Fauci wasn't included in the pressers because he was opposed to Trump's COVID solutions? Blu lite, hydroxychloroquine and such. When he was again included he wasn't asked questions? Now he's free to tell the truth based on science, not Trump's lies.
The same goes for Jen Psaki the press secretary. |
He should've resigned. Instead he posed for magazine covers. |
He stayed on board to be the voice of reason. Had he left Trump would have gone the family route and appointed someone in his family to replace him.
As it was he put Pence in charge, a person who had no knowledge of, or how to, handle a pandemic.
Dr Fauci started to distribute informational reports based on science which was why he wasn't included in the pressers for a while. It was rumored Trump was going to fire him but someone in the administration somehow convinced him that would be a bad move.
He posed for magazines is weak and has no merit. |
I think he has a healthy ego and posing for InStyle magazine and becoming a media darling during a pandemic fed into that ego. Some AIDS activists who worked with him have voiced concerns about his sense of self-importance. For what it's worth. I bring it up because someone with a healthy ego could potentially envision themselves as a hero fighting from the inside rather than another prop manipulated by a powerful narcissist.
If you're a trusted public official and he has you standing behind him while he spews harmful lies to the public, you're providing him a veneer of legitimacy. If he's blocking you from providing accurate information to the public via pressers or other news appearances, go on television to tell the truth without his permission. If you don't acknowledge to the public during a pandemic that your efforts are being sabotaged by the president and his lackey son-in-law but instead use euphemisms and beat around the bush to assuage his ego, you are party to that disinformation campaign.
I'm not calling for whipping him in the streets or stripping him of his pension. But I don't know that he needs to be rewarded with continued employment in the federal government or feted in public. _________________ Under New Management |
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DaMuleRules Retired Number
Joined: 10 Dec 2006 Posts: 52723 Location: Making a safety stop at 15 feet.
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Posted: Thu Jan 21, 2021 5:46 pm Post subject: |
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Baron Von Humongous wrote: | How much more harmful would another Trump lackey have been compared to what we've experienced to date? |
You're clearly a smart guy, which makes it staggering that you are asking a such a stupid question (sorry, gotta be hinest). Of course a Trump Lackey could have made it far worse. At least Fauci made his career as an expert on infectious diseases and is high respected for that work.
The way you are confusing Trump's restraints on Fauci with some perceived incompetency on Fauci's part is ridiculous. _________________ You thought God was an architect, now you know
He’s something like a pipe bomb ready to blow
And everything you built that’s all for show
goes up in flames
In 24 frames
Jason Isbell
Man, do those lyrics resonate right now |
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Baron Von Humongous Retired Number
Joined: 02 Jul 2015 Posts: 32979
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Posted: Thu Jan 21, 2021 5:56 pm Post subject: |
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DaMuleRules wrote: | Baron Von Humongous wrote: | How much more harmful would another Trump lackey have been compared to what we've experienced to date? |
You're clearly a smart guy, which makes it staggering that you are asking a such a stupid question (sorry, gotta be honest). Of course a Trump Lackey could have made it far worse. At least Fauci made his career as an expert on infectious diseases and is high respected for that work.
The way you are confusing Trump's restraints on Fauci with some perceived incompetency on Fauci's part is ridiculous. |
I'm not questioning Fauci's competence over the past year in the least, I'm calling him sufficiently complicit with Trump's disinformation that he should have his replacement prepared to take over his role in short order. _________________ Under New Management |
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DaMuleRules Retired Number
Joined: 10 Dec 2006 Posts: 52723 Location: Making a safety stop at 15 feet.
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Posted: Thu Jan 21, 2021 6:14 pm Post subject: |
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Baron Von Humongous wrote: | I'm not questioning Fauci's competence over the past year in the least, I'm calling him sufficiently complicit with Trump's disinformation that he should have his replacement prepared to take over his role in short order. |
You're misrepresenting what he did. You call it "complicit". The reality is he made the calculated decision to remain in his position while being constrained knowing that his presence would mitigate the damage that would be done if he were outright replaced by someone who was a Trump operative.
You're suggesting that Fauci should be treated punitively for doing absolutely the right thing and the best thing in the context he was confronted with. He's been on the front line through the whole thing. He knows the truths of what he does, and he is aware of the tactics and lies that the Right has been using to try and justify a minimal response to the virus. There's no person better suited to the position he is currently in. _________________ You thought God was an architect, now you know
He’s something like a pipe bomb ready to blow
And everything you built that’s all for show
goes up in flames
In 24 frames
Jason Isbell
Man, do those lyrics resonate right now |
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DaMuleRules Retired Number
Joined: 10 Dec 2006 Posts: 52723 Location: Making a safety stop at 15 feet.
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Posted: Thu Jan 21, 2021 6:29 pm Post subject: |
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My favorite live act got in on the Bernie meme machine . . . this is one of many reasons why Gov't Mule Rules:
Where we started
Where we are _________________ You thought God was an architect, now you know
He’s something like a pipe bomb ready to blow
And everything you built that’s all for show
goes up in flames
In 24 frames
Jason Isbell
Man, do those lyrics resonate right now |
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jonnybravo Retired Number
Joined: 21 Sep 2007 Posts: 30821
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Posted: Thu Jan 21, 2021 6:38 pm Post subject: |
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DaMuleRules wrote: | Baron Von Humongous wrote: | I'm not questioning Fauci's competence over the past year in the least, I'm calling him sufficiently complicit with Trump's disinformation that he should have his replacement prepared to take over his role in short order. |
You're misrepresenting what he did. You call it "complicit". The reality is he made the calculated decision to remain in his position while being constrained knowing that his presence would mitigate the damage that would be done if he were outright replaced by someone who was a Trump operative.
You're suggesting that Fauci should be treated punitively for doing absolutely the right thing and the best thing in the context he was confronted with. He's been on the front line through the whole thing. He knows the truths of what he does, and he is aware of the tactics and lies that the Right has been using to try and justify a minimal response to the virus. There's no person better suited to the position he is currently in. |
Yep and when it boils down to the idea that:
" How much more harmful would another Trump lackey have been compared to what we've experienced to date?"
Look no further than that pos Ajit Pai to know how much damage a Trump lackey could be. _________________ KOBE |
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governator Retired Number
Joined: 28 Jan 2006 Posts: 25258
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jodeke Retired Number
Joined: 17 Nov 2007 Posts: 68104 Location: In a world where admitting to not knowing something is considered a great way to learn.
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Posted: Thu Jan 21, 2021 6:59 pm Post subject: |
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Quote tree sprouting too many branches. I cut them off.
Baron Von Humongous wrote:
Quote: | Quote: | I think he has a healthy ego and posing for InStyle magazine and becoming a media darling during a pandemic fed into that ego. Some AIDS activists who worked with him have voiced concerns about his sense of self-importance. |
Fauci doesn't impress me as a person seeking the spotlight or one with an overblown ego. In fact, I see him as the exact opposite. A quiet unassuming professional doing his job.
I've never heard anything about AIDS activists voicing their concerns about his self importance. Do you have a link supporting that? Are you talking about activists when he was working on AIDS. If so that has nothing to do with the work he's doing now.
Quote: | For what it's worth. I bring it up because someone with a healthy ego could potentially envision themselves as a hero fighting from the inside rather than another prop manipulated by a powerful narcissist. |
I don't know where that's coming from. I'll take it as an opinion to which you're entitled. Fauci impresses me as a go along to get along so to at least have a seat at the table, not as someone looking to be a hero.
Quote: |
If you're a trusted public official and he has you standing behind him while he spews harmful lies to the public, you're providing him a veneer of legitimacy. |
Did you ever take note of Fauci's facial expressions when Trump and others were spewing lies? He had a look of disgust.
Quote: | If he's blocking you from providing accurate information to the public via pressers or other news appearances, go on television to tell the truth without his permission. |
C'mon man. You know damn well if he did that he'd be gone the next day. Trump showed on many occasions what he'd do if you disagree with him.
Quote: | If you don't acknowledge to the public during a pandemic that your efforts are being sabotaged by the president and his lackey son-in-law but instead use euphemisms and beat around the bush to assuage his ego, you are party to that disinformation campaign. |
He acknowledged on several occasions his efforts were being sabotaged. The result was Trump saying things about him that were untrue and he was sidelined.
Quote: | I'm not calling for whipping him in the streets or stripping him of his pension. But I don't know that he needs to be rewarded with continued employment in the federal government or feted in public. |
He's been a respected epidemic expert for 50 or more years. Served under every president since Regan. Has an impeccable record. He's more needed by the federal government than he needs them. I'm glad Biden kept him on. I give Biden's reasons credibility. I think he know Fauci's value. |
_________________ Be who you are and say what you feel because those who mind don't matter and those who matter don't mind.
America will never be destroyed from the outside. If we falter and lose our freedoms, it will be because we destroyed ourselves. |
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governator Retired Number
Joined: 28 Jan 2006 Posts: 25258
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kikanga Retired Number
Joined: 15 Sep 2012 Posts: 29694 Location: La La Land
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Posted: Thu Jan 21, 2021 8:51 pm Post subject: |
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The past 4 years, I've struggled with the question you guys are debating about.
Not just in regards to Fauci, but alot of the other "grownups in the room" in Trump's administration.
None of them worked for Trump for purely altruistic reasons. Even if they try to pretend that was the case after the fact.
I think I've come to the answer, that there is no answer. We can't know how much worse things would've been if the "grownups in the room" were replaced, without knowing who the replacements are.
I'm sure it's not a one size fits all answer either. Alot of variables. The position, "the grownup", the replacement, the financial incentives, how Trump personally feels about them.
For example, Steve Bannon's success and failure in the WH was largely based on Trump's personal feelings about him more than anything else.
I won't defend Fauci, but I won't criticize him either. And that's the best ANYBODY who worked in Trump's administration will get from me. _________________ "Every hurt is a lesson, and every lesson makes you better” |
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jodeke Retired Number
Joined: 17 Nov 2007 Posts: 68104 Location: In a world where admitting to not knowing something is considered a great way to learn.
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Posted: Thu Jan 21, 2021 9:03 pm Post subject: |
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^^^^ My take on Fauci is, he took one for the team. _________________ Be who you are and say what you feel because those who mind don't matter and those who matter don't mind.
America will never be destroyed from the outside. If we falter and lose our freedoms, it will be because we destroyed ourselves. |
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DancingBarry Editor-in-Chief
Joined: 07 Sep 2001 Posts: 40223 Location: O.C.
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