OFFICIAL GENERAL FREE AGENCY/TRADE THREAD
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 21, 2021 11:45 pm    Post subject:

M2K wrote:
panamaniac wrote:
Lonzo would be a smarter investment over Russ. Better fit and is actually a solid building block post LeBron.

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PostPosted: Wed Jul 21, 2021 11:51 pm    Post subject:

kikanga wrote:
PGs I'd definitely take over DLO:
Steph
Lillard
Kyrie
Westbrook
CP3
Jrue
Conley
Lowry
Luka
Trae
Ja
Ben Simmons
Jamal Murray
SGA

That's 14. Beyond that it gets interesting. He's in the Brogdon, De'Aaron Fox range. Arguments could be made for LiMelo as well. And if Lowry leaves. Fred VanVleet is in play as well.
Kemba and Wall can't stay healthy. So they're DQ'd.


That seems like a reasonable list. That's about about where I put him -- 14th to 18th or so among the 30 starting point guards.
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 22, 2021 12:03 am    Post subject:

activeverb wrote:
kikanga wrote:
PGs I'd definitely take over DLO:
Steph
Lillard
Kyrie
Westbrook
CP3
Jrue
Conley
Lowry
Luka
Trae
Ja
Ben Simmons
Jamal Murray
SGA

That's 14. Beyond that it gets interesting. He's in the Brogdon, De'Aaron Fox range. Arguments could be made for LiMelo as well. And if Lowry leaves. Fred VanVleet is in play as well.
Kemba and Wall can't stay healthy. So they're DQ'd.


That seems like a reasonable list. That's about about where I put him -- 14th to 18th or so among the 30 starting point guards.


I think a few PGs were left out but I won't fight it. Point being, Russell isn't the worst PG in the NBA but he's definitely in that 3rd tier/bottom 10-15 range.
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 22, 2021 12:12 am    Post subject:

kikanga wrote:
PGs I'd definitely take over DLO:
Steph
Lillard
Kyrie
Westbrook
CP3
Jrue
Conley
Lowry
Luka
Trae
Ja
Ben Simmons
Jamal Murray
SGA

That's 14. Beyond that it gets interesting. He's in the Brogdon, De'Aaron Fox range. Arguments could be made for LiMelo as well. And if Lowry leaves. Fred VanVleet is in play as well.
Kemba and Wall can't stay healthy. So they're DQ'd.


How many point guards would you take over Schroeder?

I'd add

DLO
Halliburton
Payne
Sexton
Clarkson
Both Ball brothers
Derrick White
Dejounte Murray
D Graham
Reggie Jackson
Marcus Smart

Maybe even Ricky Rubio

Almost 30 pgs i'd rather have than Schroeder. Which means we're trying to have easily--EASILY--the most overpaid starting PG in the league.
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 22, 2021 12:30 am    Post subject:

Considering what Houston got for Harden, I think Beal can be had for less if he wants out. One year less on his contract than when Harden was traded, and he can just walk next year. Also, he's a tier lower than Harden. (Also taking into consideration what N.O. got for Jrue):

- an above average starter (Levert type/Adams type)
- a starter (Prince type/Blessed type)
- 2 first rounds
- 3 pick swaps

I think that can get it done.
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 22, 2021 12:58 am    Post subject:

Stunned at the percentage of people here that seemingly think Westbrook is a good idea. He will be useless down the stretch of playoff games, because he won't be the one handling the ball. And if he is handling the ball, that means you are taking the ball out of LeBron's hands, which is a clear win for the defense. For those who want him, realistically, you have to know that LeBron is going to be the one with the ball in his hands down the stretch during the playoffs. So I ask you, how exactly is Westbrook helping you in those moments? He's not a good defender and he's not helping you spread the floor. So what purpose is he serving? You saw what happened when we played the Rockets in the playoffs in 2020, when Harden was the primary ballhandler. You just leave RW open and, well, what is he going to do?

As much as I think Schroder is about to get crazy overpaid by someone (possibly us, although perhaps it would be a sign-and-trade), I'd rather just retain him instead of trading for Westbrook. If we're going to have a bad fit at the end of games in the playoffs, I'd rather just keep my other assets, instead of having to move some of them for Westbrook. Not to mention Schroder won't cost over $90MM for the next two seasons. Is RW better than Schroder? Of course. But he would actually be an even worse fit for this team, based on the fact that we'd have to shed assets just to get Westbrook.
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 22, 2021 1:15 am    Post subject:

epic_ wrote:
Considering what Houston got for Harden, I think Beal can be had for less if he wants out. One year less on his contract than when Harden was traded, and he can just walk next year. Also, he's a tier lower than Harden. (Also taking into consideration what N.O. got for Jrue):

- an above average starter (Levert type/Adams type)
- a starter (Prince type/Blessed type)
- 2 first rounds
- 3 pick swaps

I think that can get it done.



It's not about how a player compares to the last guy traded, it's about the number of teams willing to buy. Harden would only accept two destinations. AD made it clear he would only go to the Lakers (okay bad example, we negotiated against ourselves there). People thought the Bucks overpaid for Jrue, but he wasn't trying to control his destination, so they had to beat out the potential offers of other teams.

Will Beal play a dirty media game and try to force his way to a particular team? Doesn't seem like his style. If he only wishes to go to a contender, Washington will have a lot of buyers trying to outbid each other.
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 22, 2021 1:24 am    Post subject:

ChickenStu wrote:
Stunned at the percentage of people here that seemingly think Westbrook is a good idea. He will be useless down the stretch of playoff games, because he won't be the one handling the ball. And if he is handling the ball, that means you are taking the ball out of LeBron's hands, which is a clear win for the defense. For those who want him, realistically, you have to know that LeBron is going to be the one with the ball in his hands down the stretch during the playoffs. So I ask you, how exactly is Westbrook helping you in those moments? He's not a good defender and he's not helping you spread the floor. So what purpose is he serving? You saw what happened when we played the Rockets in the playoffs in 2020, when Harden was the primary ballhandler. You just leave RW open and, well, what is he going to do?

As much as I think Schroder is about to get crazy overpaid by someone (possibly us, although perhaps it would be a sign-and-trade), I'd rather just retain him instead of trading for Westbrook. If we're going to have a bad fit at the end of games in the playoffs, I'd rather just keep my other assets, instead of having to move some of them for Westbrook. Not to mention Schroder won't cost over $90MM for the next two seasons. Is RW better than Schroder? Of course. But he would actually be an even worse fit for this team, based on the fact that we'd have to shed assets just to get Westbrook.


He was playing hurt in the 2020 playoffs. I don't know where this Westbrook is a bad defender narrative comes from? I guess since the Wizards were a bad defense, that's on him? Their defense was better with him on the floor than off. He's good for a steal and 1/2 a game. Top 7 among starting PGs in deflections per game https://go.nba.com/a7m6 at 2.6. Chased down defensive loose balls well too. He did a great job hounding teams defensively full court when he played on the Olympic team with a bunch of stars and didn't have to carry the load offensively. His defensive rebounding numbers are ridiculous. Beats out bigger men on the glass regularly. And with his height and strength he can also guard both guard positions if he has to switch. If you care about defensive advanced stats like DWS or DBPM. Those are good too. Even his DRPM is in the positive.
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 22, 2021 1:38 am    Post subject:

^
DBPM never rated Steph Curry that poorly, either, so sometimes I take issue with that. You can find metrics that will claim Klay Thompson wasn't a good defender, for example, which is a bunch of phooey. Anyway, I will grant you that Westbrook is a very good rebounding guard. The main point for me is that I just don't know what he's doing for you at the end of playoff games.
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 22, 2021 2:01 am    Post subject:

ChickenStu wrote:
^
DBPM never rated Steph Curry that poorly, either, so sometimes I take issue with that. You can find metrics that will claim Klay Thompson wasn't a good defender, for example, which is a bunch of phooey. Anyway, I will grant you that Westbrook is a very good rebounding guard. The main point for me is that I just don't know what he's doing for you at the end of playoff games.


What about the steals, and deflections, and chasing down loose ball stats, and his on/off court defensive rating and DWS?

I imagine it would look like what Rondo did for us. Except better rebounding and worse (but still above average) floor generalship. He's not as smart as Rondo. Few players are. But if you have LBJ or AD setting a screen for him. The other team has to switch and he can throw an entry pass to either player in the midrange with a mismatch. Teams will cheat off him off ball. But he can crash the glass and with AD at the 5 the spacing should be fine late in games.
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 22, 2021 2:55 am    Post subject:

Westbrook a zillion times better than Chris Paul,in case

And i am not a fan of RW
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 22, 2021 3:03 am    Post subject:

mixtim wrote:
Westbrook a zillion times better than Chris Paul,in case

And i am not a fan of RW



Crazy talk.
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 22, 2021 3:33 am    Post subject:

CP3 is Nash 2013, its a trap!
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 22, 2021 4:08 am    Post subject:

The three biggest problems with our offense, in order:

1. Low imagination offense
2. Mediocre shooting
3. Non-lebron/AD scoring

Russ theoretically helps with (3), but he'll be greatly, greatly hampered by (1) and (2), neither of which we should expect to improve (they may even trend down, depending on whom we ship out in exchange for Russ).

It's a massive, depth-gutting trade for a guy that solves...20% of our offensive issues? And that's not even getting into his defense, which has been MIA for many seasons now. Schroeder at least tries.

Is Lebron just gonna play off-ball the entire time? Because when Russ doesn't have the ball, the offense basically becomes 4-on-5. He doesn't move, doesn't cut, and the defense could care less if he's open on the perimeter. So when Lebron does have the ball, lanes will become even more congested than they already are, with our two-center, 1-actual-shooter (KCP) offense.

I don't even see this being a good regular season move.
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 22, 2021 4:22 am    Post subject:

I'm a fan of Westbrook, as a competitor. But there's no way I'd unload Schroder, THT, and Kuzma for him. He's just not a good fit. If he were bought out or something or something and could be had for cheaper, I'd gladly take him. But you can't give up all of your assets for a guy who doesn't fit.
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 22, 2021 4:25 am    Post subject:

pjiddy wrote:
The three biggest problems with our offense, in order:

1. Low imagination offense
2. Mediocre shooting
3. Non-lebron/AD scoring

Russ theoretically helps with (3), but he'll be greatly, greatly hampered by (1) and (2), neither of which we should expect to improve (they may even trend down, depending on whom we ship out in exchange for Russ).

It's a massive, depth-gutting trade for a guy that solves...20% of our offensive issues? And that's not even getting into his defense, which has been MIA for many seasons now. Schroeder at least tries.

Is Lebron just gonna play off-ball the entire time? Because when Russ doesn't have the ball, the offense basically becomes 4-on-5. He doesn't move, doesn't cut, and the defense could care less if he's open on the perimeter. So when Lebron does have the ball, lanes will become even more congested than they already are, with our two-center, 1-actual-shooter (KCP) offense.

I don't even see this being a good regular season move.


Great post! Russ without question helps with #3. He does not help with 1 (coaching also a cause) and 2. Also, the above may take a hit depending on what we have to give up to acquire him. I know we are in the minority of not wanting him, but we should pass. I know he has the star power and we should go all in NOW because our window is short, but Russ is not the answer.
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 22, 2021 4:57 am    Post subject:

RI Laker wrote:
Great post! Russ without question helps with #3. He does not help with 1 (coaching also a cause) and 2. Also, the above may take a hit depending on what we have to give up to acquire him. I know we are in the minority of not wanting him, but we should pass. I know he has the star power and we should go all in NOW because our window is short, but Russ is not the answer.


That's how I feel. I'm fine with trading those three to get in a star. I'd like to hold on to THT, but if you can get in a top tier player so be it. But it has to be a trade that improves the team. It needs to be a good fit. If that was too much to give up for Lowry last season, who is actually a good fit, why would we give it up for a significantly worse one in Westbrook?
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 22, 2021 5:08 am    Post subject:

The trade being suggested for Russ I would sooner do for Lowry. Toronto appeared to be down if it brought back THT. People say we balked at trading THT for Lowry, but i think that could be more reflective of Lowry's UFA status. Trading him for 2 months of Lowry would have sucked. But if he's willing to sign a deal? Then we're probably talking.
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 22, 2021 5:48 am    Post subject:

kikanga wrote:
He was playing hurt in the 2020 playoffs. I don't know where this Westbrook is a bad defender narrative comes from?


It's because he's a mediocre defender at best. You cite DRPM and note that he was actually positive this year (+0.05). The previous year, he was -0.69, just behind Jordan Clarkson. The year before that, he was -2.00. The year before that, he was -2.32. So I guess you could say that he's gone from terrible to mediocre as he's aged.

You talk about his rebounding, but you should stop and think about that. If your point guard is chasing rebounds under the basket, who is guarding the opposing point guard? You talk about his steals, but steals are often a hallmark of bad defenders. This is because they gamble and flounder around a lot. Westbrook is always going to chase stats, so it's no surprise that he's prone to doing this.

Overall, Westbrook's defense is not really what concerns me. He would be a downgrade compared to Schroder, but he wouldn't be Isaiah Thomas bad. If I had to list his flaws, his defense would be low on the list.
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 22, 2021 6:04 am    Post subject:

kikanga wrote:
PGs I'd definitely take over DLO:
Steph
Lillard
Kyrie
Westbrook
CP3
Jrue
Conley
Lowry
Luka
Trae
Ja
Ben Simmons
Jamal Murray
SGA

That's 14. Beyond that it gets interesting. He's in the Brogdon, De'Aaron Fox range. Arguments could be made for LiMelo as well. And if Lowry leaves. Fred VanVleet is in play as well.
Kemba and Wall can't stay healthy. So they're DQ'd.


Patty Mills is an UFA too
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 22, 2021 6:04 am    Post subject:

pjiddy wrote:
epic_ wrote:
Considering what Houston got for Harden, I think Beal can be had for less if he wants out. One year less on his contract than when Harden was traded, and he can just walk next year. Also, he's a tier lower than Harden. (Also taking into consideration what N.O. got for Jrue):

- an above average starter (Levert type/Adams type)
- a starter (Prince type/Blessed type)
- 2 first rounds
- 3 pick swaps

I think that can get it done.



It's not about how a player compares to the last guy traded, it's about the number of teams willing to buy. Harden would only accept two destinations. AD made it clear he would only go to the Lakers (okay bad example, we negotiated against ourselves there). People thought the Bucks overpaid for Jrue, but he wasn't trying to control his destination, so they had to beat out the potential offers of other teams.

Will Beal play a dirty media game and try to force his way to a particular team? Doesn't seem like his style. If he only wishes to go to a contender, Washington will have a lot of buyers trying to outbid each other.


Yea, there's a few variables that come into play. And this is all predicated on him wanting out. Even if he doesn't dictate his destination, I don't see the ultimate package for him being much different from the package above. It'll probably depend on the quality of the players and picks.
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 22, 2021 6:12 am    Post subject:

Had a glance at Westbrook’s matchups from last season, the only one that stood out is Kendrick Nunn scoring 25 points, but that was in a blowout loss. Most of the guys that went off did so behind the three point line, Lillard 7-17, Bogs 7-12, Curry 5-12, Brogdon 5-10, Young 5-9, Lowry 5-8. Those were outliners for Westbrook. I looked at Schroder’s matchups from last season, that happened every nearly every game! Tyrese Haliburton gave him 30 points

The people with agendas talking out the side of their mouth, Westbrook is a SIGNIFICANTLY better defender than Schroder.
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Last edited by JUST-MING on Thu Jul 22, 2021 6:23 am; edited 1 time in total
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 22, 2021 6:22 am    Post subject:

Westbrook is a bad defender. He constantly leaves guys open to chase defensive boards. I believe he damn near led the league in uncontested shots given up one year. He also gambles a lot on D.
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 22, 2021 6:24 am    Post subject:

Thanks for the insight Tex. Enjoy the no. 2 lottery pick
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 22, 2021 6:25 am    Post subject:

7/11

7 days to the draft.
11 days to free agency.
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