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Aeneas Hunter
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 25, 2023 6:46 am    Post subject:

alleyoop wrote:
Aeneas Hunter wrote:
ChickenStu wrote:
There are people here who think Westbrook is more important/valuable than Beverley? Really? Westbrook has been even worse this year than he was last year. He's one of the most maddening players I've ever watched, one of the lowest-IQ players I think I've ever seen. His offensive inefficiency is gross, and whatever playmaking he provides is more than offset by his ridiculous turnovers, which often lead directly to points by the other team. He's an empty calorie guy who hunts for numbers, and has for a very long time now.


Without Westbrook, the season would already be over. I have never been a fan of Westbrook, but it's still true. Without Westbrook, we have no offensive punch off the bench. I credit Beverley for his defense. In fact, I have argued that the Beverley bashers are wrong. But he still hasn't been as valuable as Westbrook. This says more about the flaws in the roster than the quality of Westbrook's play, but it's still true.

The metrics confirm this. RAPTOR has Westbrook at -1.5 and Beverley at -3.7. DARKO has Westbrook at +0.1 and Beverley at -0.8. EPM has Westbrook at +0.4 and Beverley at -2.5. RAPM has Westbrook at -0.45 and Beverley at -1.09. Metrics are never definitive, but when they all say the same thing, it's significant.

PatBev's LEBRON is 1.74, Russ' LEBRON is -1

FWIW I've never understood the differences between each of the metrics, so for me, it's hard to percieve the value of each of them haha


Nope. You're looking at the LEBRON for last season, when Beverley played for Minnesota.
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ThePageDude
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 25, 2023 6:46 am    Post subject:

aiel wrote:

<snip>

Plumlee doesn't solve our defensive and rebounding issues.

This is what a spurs fan wrote about Poeltl

"He's a premier rim protector. Like extremely good. Not just at blocking shots but just positioning himself to deter drives in the first place. He's big and bulky enough, with good enough footwork to be a very good defender in the post, but is extremely underrated when it comes to his perimeter defense. He's no Evan mobley, but he moves his feet much better than you would ever expect at his size and heft. Plenty of point guards have licked their chops. When pulling him out to the perimeter in the past only to be surprised when he is been able to recover for a great contest or a shot block on the drive.

You would be hard pressed to find too many players who screen better than Jacob. Screen assists are a very underrated part of a center's job and he does it immaculately.

He's a true elite offensive rebounder

He's turned into a great passer. Particularly from the high post. He's extremely good at picking out cutters and guys coming off screens in particular. San Antonio often runs their offense through him. They will get him the ball early and allow him to hold towards the top while players start dashing around screens and cutting. Trusting him to essentially decide where he wants the ball to go next and how the offense should develop."

He'll also help extend Davis' career by handling more of the physical pounding.


I haven't watched Poeltl much really so this is a totally honest question: if Poeltl is all this guy says he is why do the Spurs (who're as savvy as they come when evaluating talent) want to trade him? why wouldn't they keep him as part of their future core?
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 25, 2023 6:48 am    Post subject:

defense wrote:
Anyone like this potential line up?

Reaves
Rui
Lebron
Davis
Turner


Not sure I like the rotational defense well enough. I think if you land Turner, your upside is that you get quality minutes from 3-5 and cover yourself vs the inevitable injury.
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yinoma2001
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 25, 2023 6:48 am    Post subject:

ThePageDude wrote:
aiel wrote:

<snip>

Plumlee doesn't solve our defensive and rebounding issues.

This is what a spurs fan wrote about Poeltl

"He's a premier rim protector. Like extremely good. Not just at blocking shots but just positioning himself to deter drives in the first place. He's big and bulky enough, with good enough footwork to be a very good defender in the post, but is extremely underrated when it comes to his perimeter defense. He's no Evan mobley, but he moves his feet much better than you would ever expect at his size and heft. Plenty of point guards have licked their chops. When pulling him out to the perimeter in the past only to be surprised when he is been able to recover for a great contest or a shot block on the drive.

You would be hard pressed to find too many players who screen better than Jacob. Screen assists are a very underrated part of a center's job and he does it immaculately.

He's a true elite offensive rebounder

He's turned into a great passer. Particularly from the high post. He's extremely good at picking out cutters and guys coming off screens in particular. San Antonio often runs their offense through him. They will get him the ball early and allow him to hold towards the top while players start dashing around screens and cutting. Trusting him to essentially decide where he wants the ball to go next and how the offense should develop."

He'll also help extend Davis' career by handling more of the physical pounding.


I haven't watched Poeltl much really so this is a totally honest question: if Poeltl is all this guy says he is why do the Spurs (who're as savvy as they come when evaluating talent) want to trade him? why wouldn't they keep him as part of their future core?


He reportedly wants to get PAID. Like probably $20m range. I agree with the description above, but in today's NBA, he doesn't space the floor and you can't even consider closing games with him due to spacing and FT issues. If he was going to re-up for $10-12m/year, I'd say go for it. But he is a flight risk in FA.
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yinoma2001
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 25, 2023 6:52 am    Post subject:

I just miss 2020 when we were just a HUGE team that imposed its physicality on other teams.

KCP/Green as huge wings. LBJ/AD/Jav at the big spots?

Then you bring Dwight/Kieff/Kuz off the bench? Just size after size.

Now? 3-5 guard lineups? We looked like a JV team out there (and I know we are getting Rui/AD tonight, thank you Lord) last night.
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Aeneas Hunter
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 25, 2023 6:54 am    Post subject:

yinoma2001 wrote:
This is true, but at 47m, just really hinders our ability to add depth to the team. I would say he's probably a 15m level player right now.


At this point, who gives a damn? You're crying over sunk costs. It doesn't matter how much we are paying any of these guys. We traded for Westbrook, and we can't switch to an alternative history in which we didn't make the trade. I was horrified by the trade at the time, but I can watch Westbrook play without obsessing about his salary.
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 25, 2023 6:54 am    Post subject:

yinoma2001 wrote:

<snip>

He reportedly wants to get PAID. Like probably $20m range. I agree with the description above, but in today's NBA, he doesn't space the floor and you can't even consider closing games with him due to spacing and FT issues. If he was going to re-up for $10-12m/year, I'd say go for it. But he is a flight risk in FA.


Got it.
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 25, 2023 6:59 am    Post subject:

yinoma2001 wrote:
I just miss 2020 when we were just a HUGE team that imposed its physicality on other teams.

KCP/Green as huge wings. LBJ/AD/Jav at the big spots?

Then you bring Dwight/Kieff/Kuz off the bench? Just size after size.

Now? 3-5 guard lineups? We looked like a JV team out there (and I know we are getting Rui/AD tonight, thank you Lord) last night.


I genuinely believe if the Lakers just had KCP, Kuzma, and Caruso (I know he wasn't part of the Westbrook trade) instead of Westbrook, the Lakers would be legitimate title contenders. All three guys are playing incredibly well. And while the Lakers have found some competent role players, none of them play the defense that those three guys did.
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 25, 2023 6:59 am    Post subject:

Aeneas Hunter wrote:
yinoma2001 wrote:
This is true, but at 47m, just really hinders our ability to add depth to the team. I would say he's probably a 15m level player right now.


At this point, who gives a damn? You're crying over sunk costs. It doesn't matter how much we are paying any of these guys. We traded for Westbrook, and we can't switch to an alternative history in which we didn't make the trade. I was horrified by the trade at the time, but I can watch Westbrook play without obsessing about his salary.


It's not a sunk cost b/c my point is, you can use that salary ballast to get more depth. Trading Bev/Lonnie to get 1 player (i.e. Bojan or GTJ) is a nice move but still doesn't balance our team completely. That 32m delta b/w his salary and performance based salary is what i'm talking about. Of course what he got traded for or paid is a sunk cost. But that's not what I'm talking about. There is still time to be proactive. Yes, you'll probably get at best, 66/70 cents on the dollar for KCP/Kuz/Trezz/22nd pick, but that may be what this team needs.
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 25, 2023 7:01 am    Post subject:

ThePageDude wrote:
I haven't watched Poeltl much really so this is a totally honest question: if Poeltl is all this guy says he is why do the Spurs (who're as savvy as they come when evaluating talent) want to trade him? why wouldn't they keep him as part of their future core?


They do want to keep him. The problem is that he is a free agent this summer, but the extension rules don't allow the Spurs to offer him a deal that matches his market value. This is similar to the situation with Kuzma and Clarkson. They need to get to the summer to offer market value with Bird rights. But if that happens, someone else could outbid them, or he could just decide to sign with someone else. So the Spurs may need to move him in order to avoid the risk of losing him for nothing.
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 25, 2023 7:02 am    Post subject:

yinoma2001 wrote:
Aeneas Hunter wrote:
yinoma2001 wrote:
This is true, but at 47m, just really hinders our ability to add depth to the team. I would say he's probably a 15m level player right now.


At this point, who gives a damn? You're crying over sunk costs. It doesn't matter how much we are paying any of these guys. We traded for Westbrook, and we can't switch to an alternative history in which we didn't make the trade. I was horrified by the trade at the time, but I can watch Westbrook play without obsessing about his salary.


It's not a sunk cost b/c my point is, you can use that salary ballast to get more depth. Trading Bev/Lonnie to get 1 player (i.e. Bojan or GTJ) is a nice move but still doesn't balance our team completely. That 32m delta b/w his salary and performance based salary is what i'm talking about. Of course what he got traded for or paid is a sunk cost. But that's not what I'm talking about. There is still time to be proactive. Yes, you'll probably get at best, 66/70 cents on the dollar for KCP/Kuz/Trezz/22nd pick, but that may be what this team needs.


Do you realize that this is not what we're talking about?
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 25, 2023 7:08 am    Post subject:

So last night's debacle vs. the Clippers illustrates why Laker defense continues to be an Achilles heel for us.

Sure, AD coming back will help, but his main presence is down low. His surrounding pieces need to be stronger at making it tough for opponents to score. With the nine guard-sized players on the roster of 6'6" or smaller, there's no reason to continue to try to improve the back court. Ham has to find some PG/SG combo for defensive purposes when we need consistent stops.

It's the front court where the real need is. Can Rui help? Signs are mixed. I wasn't impressed with the little I watched of him in D.C., but we'll see what our vets and coaching staff can get out of him defensively.

With that said, we could use an SF/PF with more defensive upside as well as a back up defensive center. One of the best, most realistic option that's affordable for us (i.e., no OG from Toronto) may be Jarred Vanderbilt. That guy can guard the perimeter with height AND length AND tenacity AND results. His 6'8" size would also be able to help down low alongside bigger Laker defenders too.

He's not an all-star though, so Rob might not feel he's worth a FRP, but we have to do something like that or we have no shot of success in the playoffs. The defense is too weak.
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 25, 2023 7:13 am    Post subject:

Aeneas Hunter wrote:
yinoma2001 wrote:
This is true, but at 47m, just really hinders our ability to add depth to the team. I would say he's probably a 15m level player right now.


At this point, who gives a damn? You're crying over sunk costs. It doesn't matter how much we are paying any of these guys. We traded for Westbrook, and we can't switch to an alternative history in which we didn't make the trade. I was horrified by the trade at the time, but I can watch Westbrook play without obsessing about his salary.


Sure, but I interpreted yinoma as less bemoaning the sunk-cost and more pointing out the tradeoff the FO *MAY* be facing with respect to the $47m. Do they
- keep Westbrook for this season at his $15m productivity level in the hope that he presents the best chance of making some noise these playoffs.
- trade Westbrook's $47m because not using it reduces their deal-footprint this offseason at, of course, the expense of risking this post-season.
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 25, 2023 7:16 am    Post subject:

Aeneas Hunter wrote:


At this point, who gives a damn? You're crying over sunk costs. It doesn't matter how much we are paying any of these guys. We traded for Westbrook, and we can't switch to an alternative history in which we didn't make the trade. I was horrified by the trade at the time, but I can watch Westbrook play without obsessing about his salary.

This should be pinned.
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 25, 2023 7:23 am    Post subject:

ThePageDude wrote:
Aeneas Hunter wrote:
yinoma2001 wrote:
This is true, but at 47m, just really hinders our ability to add depth to the team. I would say he's probably a 15m level player right now.


At this point, who gives a damn? You're crying over sunk costs. It doesn't matter how much we are paying any of these guys. We traded for Westbrook, and we can't switch to an alternative history in which we didn't make the trade. I was horrified by the trade at the time, but I can watch Westbrook play without obsessing about his salary.


Sure, but I interpreted yinoma as less bemoaning the sunk-cost and more pointing out the tradeoff the FO *MAY* be facing with respect to the $47m. Do they
- keep Westbrook for this season at his $15m productivity level in the hope that he presents the best chance of making some noise these playoffs.
- trade Westbrook's $47m because not using it reduces their deal-footprint this offseason at, of course, the expense of risking this post-season.

Yep.

Here's the issue I think (just my guess based on Pelinka history).

If he trades Westbrook, for a non-superstar, he may be able to get a deal in place where there's only 1 pick involved. But the issue here is that he's now taken on contracts (Maybe such as Hield's) for 20M in 2023-24, eating into capspace. He's now married to a team of (Lets just for argument's sake say Hield's name here)

TBryant (must re-sign at the MLE),
Rui (bird right re-sign),
Reaves (same as Rui),
Hield

As the best players after AD/Bron. Is that team going to be good? Maybe. Especially if you can sign some vet mins like you did this year with Dennis, TBryant etc. If you make some other good moves, you probably make the playoffs as a 5th or 6th seed or the play ins as a 7th seed that wins 1 game to make the playoffs.

But now you're back to being over the cap, without flex to sign a superstar, which is what I think this FO covets more than anything. By simply allowing WB to expire, they'll have two options. Option 1: Re-sign Rui, Reaves, Bryant and maybe even Dennis. Make a trade using the draft picks to add some more talent in the summer. Option 2: Star chase. Go for Dray/Harden/Kyrie. Then use the draft picks to add more talent.

I think they pretty much have been willing to give up on this season in terms of trying to win a ring. Which if they get what they want in the offseason of 2023, they'll feel is worth it.
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Aeneas Hunter
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 25, 2023 7:28 am    Post subject:

ThePageDude wrote:
Aeneas Hunter wrote:
yinoma2001 wrote:
This is true, but at 47m, just really hinders our ability to add depth to the team. I would say he's probably a 15m level player right now.


At this point, who gives a damn? You're crying over sunk costs. It doesn't matter how much we are paying any of these guys. We traded for Westbrook, and we can't switch to an alternative history in which we didn't make the trade. I was horrified by the trade at the time, but I can watch Westbrook play without obsessing about his salary.


Sure, but I interpreted yinoma as less bemoaning the sunk-cost and more pointing out the tradeoff the FO *MAY* be facing with respect to the $47m. Do they
- keep Westbrook for this season at his $15m productivity level in the hope that he presents the best chance of making some noise these playoffs.
- trade Westbrook's $47m because not using it reduces their deal-footprint this offseason at, of course, the expense of risking this post-season.


Sure, but that's not what we were talking about. We were talking about whether Westbrook or Beverley is more valuable as a player this season. This has nothing to do with their relative price tags. That is just obsession about sunk costs.

As to your point (which has been talked to death for six months or more), the question is always whether there is actually a trade available for Westbrook. The answer appears to be No. We would need to add draft capital, and even then there may not be a trade available. But that's the proverbial dead horse.
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 25, 2023 7:32 am    Post subject:

Seeing the way Lebron/AD have played, and the pick ups on Dennis/TBryant (Starting level talent) for the vet min, it definitely makes me wonder what if we had a team of Turner, AD, Lebron, Hield Dennis (starters) with a bench oF TBryant, Rui, Walker, Beverely, would end up like. I mean I think that's a hell of a solid roster around Bron/AD. So that is definitely an argument someone can make. Seeing as 29 wins right now gets you probably 2nd or 3rd in the West. Would we be there? It's hard to say, but I'd argue we'd be at least in the top 5.

I just don't think Jeanie wants to pay for that roster, nor do I think they believe that they'd win a ring with that group. But for sure, I believe that roster has a decent chance with a healthy Lebron/AD in the playoffs (Of course the argument that AD is never healthy also is a factor here).

What would have giving up 2 picks meant? You'd end up back to what you were pre-WB trade. You'd have a roster that was good enough to make the playoffs, but relied on AD's health to win a ring. A healthy AD with the roster pre-WB was good enough to win in the playoffs. Post-WB trade this is not a factor. Some will argue otherwise, but I think the Pacers trade especially in light with how Dennis/TBryant have played as starters for the vet min, would have put us in the equation with Denver, Memphis etc. Maybe we still fall short, but we're in the equation, something we're not even in right now.
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 25, 2023 7:40 am    Post subject:

Aeneas Hunter wrote:

<snip>
Sure, but that's not what we were talking about. We were talking about whether Westbrook or Beverley is more valuable as a player this season. This has nothing to do with their relative price tags. That is just obsession about sunk costs.


OK, fair enough.

Quote:

But that's the proverbial dead horse.


Lol, not ever, ever in this thread. Witness talk of a Spurs deal, Poeltl, Beal, ad-nauseam. That taints everything I read in this thread.
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 25, 2023 7:41 am    Post subject:

Quote:
The Lakers Review
@TheLakersReview
Zach Lowe’s trade idea during the most recent episode of his podcast

Lakers get:

⁃ Zach Lavine

Bulls get:

⁃ Russell Westbrook
⁃ two 1st round draft picks (“one unprotected and the second one has the most limited possible protections that’s allowable under NBA rules”)


Not sure what protections can be had.
But WB is killing me.
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 25, 2023 7:41 am    Post subject:

joeblow wrote:
So last night's debacle vs. the Clippers illustrates why Laker defense continues to be an Achilles heel for us.

Sure, AD coming back will help, but his main presence is down low. His surrounding pieces need to be stronger at making it tough for opponents to score. With the nine guard-sized players on the roster of 6'6" or smaller, there's no reason to continue to try to improve the back court. Ham has to find some PG/SG combo for defensive purposes when we need consistent stops.

It's the front court where the real need is. Can Rui help? Signs are mixed. I wasn't impressed with the little I watched of him in D.C., but we'll see what our vets and coaching staff can get out of him defensively.

With that said, we could use an SF/PF with more defensive upside as well as a back up defensive center. One of the best, most realistic option that's affordable for us (i.e., no OG from Toronto) may be Jarred Vanderbilt. That guy can guard the perimeter with height AND length AND tenacity AND results. His 6'8" size would also be able to help down low alongside bigger Laker defenders too.

He's not an all-star though, so Rob might not feel he's worth a FRP, but we have to do something like that or we have no shot of success in the playoffs. The defense is too weak.


Vanderbilt or Thybulle will give us defensive options that can match up with a team like Clips with so many long wings who can score. I think a couple of 2nds plus Walker salary can get it done. Cheaper will be someone like House or Reddish who are out of rotation.
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 25, 2023 7:51 am    Post subject:

Halflife wrote:
Aeneas Hunter wrote:


At this point, who gives a damn? You're crying over sunk costs. It doesn't matter how much we are paying any of these guys. We traded for Westbrook, and we can't switch to an alternative history in which we didn't make the trade. I was horrified by the trade at the time, but I can watch Westbrook play without obsessing about his salary.

This should be pinned.


Pretty rich of you to say this given how you're still to this day, nearly 3 plus years after LBJ's signing and AD's trade, complaining about sunk costs after they won a championship in 2020. Pin that.
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 25, 2023 7:52 am    Post subject:

epic_ wrote:
Quote:
The Lakers Review
@TheLakersReview
Zach Lowe’s trade idea during the most recent episode of his podcast

Lakers get:

⁃ Zach Lavine

Bulls get:

⁃ Russell Westbrook
⁃ two 1st round draft picks (“one unprotected and the second one has the most limited possible protections that’s allowable under NBA rules”)


Not sure what protections can be had.
But WB is killing me.


LaVine will really kill you when he misses games with injuries, at least Westbrook is durable
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 25, 2023 7:54 am    Post subject:

yinoma2001 wrote:
Halflife wrote:
Aeneas Hunter wrote:


At this point, who gives a damn? You're crying over sunk costs. It doesn't matter how much we are paying any of these guys. We traded for Westbrook, and we can't switch to an alternative history in which we didn't make the trade. I was horrified by the trade at the time, but I can watch Westbrook play without obsessing about his salary.

This should be pinned.


Pretty rich of you to say this given how you're still to this day, nearly 3 plus years after LBJ's signing and AD's trade, complaining about sunk costs after they won a championship in 2020. Pin that.

where? The 50m for two more has been discussed but I have said he is untradeable. Certainly not beating the dead horse.
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 25, 2023 7:55 am    Post subject:

Inspector Gadget wrote:
epic_ wrote:
Quote:
The Lakers Review
@TheLakersReview
Zach Lowe’s trade idea during the most recent episode of his podcast

Lakers get:

⁃ Zach Lavine

Bulls get:

⁃ Russell Westbrook
⁃ two 1st round draft picks (“one unprotected and the second one has the most limited possible protections that’s allowable under NBA rules”)


Not sure what protections can be had.
But WB is killing me.


LaVine will really kill you when he misses games with injuries, at least Westbrook is durable

lavine would be a mistake. Chi has a stacked team with a pretty good coach and a system tailor made for him. That wouldn't be our system.
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 25, 2023 7:55 am    Post subject:

Inspector Gadget wrote:
epic_ wrote:
Quote:
The Lakers Review
@TheLakersReview
Zach Lowe’s trade idea during the most recent episode of his podcast

Lakers get:

⁃ Zach Lavine

Bulls get:

⁃ Russell Westbrook
⁃ two 1st round draft picks (“one unprotected and the second one has the most limited possible protections that’s allowable under NBA rules”)


Not sure what protections can be had.
But WB is killing me.


LaVine will really kill you when he misses games with injuries, at least Westbrook is durable


I think u can dump the ball to Lavine when Bron sits and he can shoot 3s when Bron is in the game, do it
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