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troy
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 Posted: Tue Mar 14, 2023 8:41 am Post subject: |
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| Nonamehero wrote: | | Aeneas Hunter wrote: | | troy wrote: | | If we don't make the play-in (which I still think is in doubt), then the conversation of how much blame Mr. Ham should be afforded will be rampant this summer. |
Sure, but that's always true for a head coach. The only barometer that matters is the record. As for whether Ham is a good coach, the jury's still out. We'll be able to make a better assessment by the end of next season, assuming that Pelinka doesn't keep churning the roster. |
He is clueless.
People can try it spin it how they want.
But the fact is he is clueless.
It is not complicated.
record is not the only barometer.
How you utilize the team potential and maximize its ceiling should be.
Record is depending on talent as well.
Ham is flat out not giving his team the best chance to win out there.
He is creating obstacles where it is harder for us to win. |
Not sure if record is the only barometer. Vogel had winning records 2 out of the 3 seasons he was here and he still got fired. |
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Aeneas Hunter
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| Posted: Tue Mar 14, 2023 12:51 pm Post subject: |
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| troy wrote: | | Not sure if record is the only barometer. Vogel had winning records 2 out of the 3 seasons he was here and he still got fired. |
If Vogel had a winning record last season, he'd probably still be the head coach. If Luke Walton had a winning record in '19, he would probably have been the head coach in 2020. It's the current reading on the barometer that matters most, unless you're someone like Greg Popovich or unless you've got significant extenuating circumstances like Steve Kerr.
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troy
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| Posted: Tue Mar 14, 2023 2:32 pm Post subject: |
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| Aeneas Hunter wrote: | | troy wrote: | | Not sure if record is the only barometer. Vogel had winning records 2 out of the 3 seasons he was here and he still got fired. |
If Vogel had a winning record last season, he'd probably still be the head coach. If Luke Walton had a winning record in '19, he would probably have been the head coach in 2020. It's the current reading on the barometer that matters most, unless you're someone like Greg Popovich or unless you've got significant extenuating circumstances like Steve Kerr. |
"Reading on the barometer" is subjective. There's a good chance we miss the playin and end up with a losing record. What is the criteria for getting fired as a Laker coach? It's happened so often. I while back, I posted data that showed that Laker coaches, on average, last 2.5 seasons before they are let go. I think that data is the elusive barometer. Make or miss the playoffs, I say Mr. Ham is on the hotplate after next season. Again, Vogel won the NBA finals and had the Lakers up 2-1 in the 1st round of the playoffs, and then the following year, he was canned. |
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Aeneas Hunter
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| Posted: Tue Mar 14, 2023 2:41 pm Post subject: |
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| troy wrote: | | Aeneas Hunter wrote: | | troy wrote: | | Not sure if record is the only barometer. Vogel had winning records 2 out of the 3 seasons he was here and he still got fired. |
If Vogel had a winning record last season, he'd probably still be the head coach. If Luke Walton had a winning record in '19, he would probably have been the head coach in 2020. It's the current reading on the barometer that matters most, unless you're someone like Greg Popovich or unless you've got significant extenuating circumstances like Steve Kerr. |
"Reading on the barometer" is subjective. There's a good chance we miss the playin and end up with a losing record. What is the criteria for getting fired as a Laker coach? It's happened so often. I while back, I posted data that showed that Laker coaches, on average, last 2.5 seasons before they are let go. I think that data is the elusive barometer. Make or miss the playoffs, I say Mr. Ham is on the hotplate after next season. Again, Vogel won the NBA finals and had the Lakers up 2-1 in the 1st round of the playoffs, and then the following year, he was canned. |
I wouldn't call that a barometer. The average tenure of an NBA head coach is 2.4 years. The question is why some coaches last longer than average and why some don't last at all. It's about winning.
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ocho
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| Posted: Tue Mar 14, 2023 2:44 pm Post subject: |
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| troy wrote: | | Aeneas Hunter wrote: | | troy wrote: | | Not sure if record is the only barometer. Vogel had winning records 2 out of the 3 seasons he was here and he still got fired. |
If Vogel had a winning record last season, he'd probably still be the head coach. If Luke Walton had a winning record in '19, he would probably have been the head coach in 2020. It's the current reading on the barometer that matters most, unless you're someone like Greg Popovich or unless you've got significant extenuating circumstances like Steve Kerr. |
"Reading on the barometer" is subjective. There's a good chance we miss the playin and end up with a losing record. What is the criteria for getting fired as a Laker coach? It's happened so often. I while back, I posted data that showed that Laker coaches, on average, last 2.5 seasons before they are let go. I think that data is the elusive barometer. Make or miss the playoffs, I say Mr. Ham is on the hotplate after next season. Again, Vogel won the NBA finals and had the Lakers up 2-1 in the 1st round of the playoffs, and then the following year, he was canned. |
Being fired has little to do with the quality of a coach and a lot to deal with the variables they can’t control. The coach doesn’t control the biggest variable of whether the team will have success which is who is on the roster. This isn’t to say a coach never performs poorly or never deserved a firing. However, our coaching carousel has a lot more to do with the shortcomings of our management than the HC. Outside of the players, the coach is the face of the team and gets blamed for anything bad that happens. The next GM that fires themselves for poor performance will be the first.
With Vogel, he paid the price for the Westbrook debacle. Ham gets some deserved credit for convincing him to take a bench role but that didn’t really make much of a difference in the long run. It doesn’t sound like the Lakers were ever that high on Vogel. They picked his staff and lowballed him on his deal and only gave him an insulting 1 year extension after winning a championship. If Ham doesn’t show year to year progress he’ll get canned because Pelinka and Co. will need to provide a scalp and they’re going to point with their index finger rather than their thumb. It won’t necessarily be Ham’s fault. He’s had the team playing hard all year even when they stunk which had put us in the position we are in to make a push now that the roster has been better sorted out.
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activeverb
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| Posted: Tue Mar 14, 2023 2:44 pm Post subject: |
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| troy wrote: | | Aeneas Hunter wrote: | | troy wrote: | | Not sure if record is the only barometer. Vogel had winning records 2 out of the 3 seasons he was here and he still got fired. |
If Vogel had a winning record last season, he'd probably still be the head coach. If Luke Walton had a winning record in '19, he would probably have been the head coach in 2020. It's the current reading on the barometer that matters most, unless you're someone like Greg Popovich or unless you've got significant extenuating circumstances like Steve Kerr. |
"Reading on the barometer" is subjective. There's a good chance we miss the playin and end up with a losing record. What is the criteria for getting fired as a Laker coach? It's happened so often. I while back, I posted data that showed that Laker coaches, on average, last 2.5 seasons before they are let go. I think that data is the elusive barometer. Make or miss the playoffs, I say Mr. Ham is on the hotplate after next season. Again, Vogel won the NBA finals and had the Lakers up 2-1 in the 1st round of the playoffs, and then the following year, he was canned. |
I believe the tenure of the average NBA coach is 3.7 years. No matter what Ham is probably safe next year because of injuries and his contract. After that, who knows? |
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Aeneas Hunter
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| Posted: Tue Mar 14, 2023 2:51 pm Post subject: |
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| activeverb wrote: | | I believe the tenure of the average NBA coach is 3.7 years. |
Your number is more recent than mine. That number was 2019. It was 2.3 a few years earlier. I guess that number will vary over time.
Edit: Actually, I take that back. The 3.7 number was the average tenure of coaches that season. That was right after an offseason where no head coaches got fired. The 2.4 number may be more accurate as a long-term stat.
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activeverb
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| Posted: Tue Mar 14, 2023 4:43 pm Post subject: |
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| Aeneas Hunter wrote: | | activeverb wrote: | | I believe the tenure of the average NBA coach is 3.7 years. |
Your number is more recent than mine. That number was 2019. It was 2.3 a few years earlier. I guess that number will vary over time.
Edit: Actually, I take that back. The 3.7 number was the average tenure of coaches that season. That was right after an offseason where no head coaches got fired. The 2.4 number may be more accurate as a long-term stat. |
Kind of shows you why coaches are always in win now mode. They generally don't have a later. |
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Nonamehero
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| Posted: Tue Mar 14, 2023 6:01 pm Post subject: |
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| ocho wrote: | | troy wrote: | | Aeneas Hunter wrote: | | troy wrote: | | Not sure if record is the only barometer. Vogel had winning records 2 out of the 3 seasons he was here and he still got fired. |
If Vogel had a winning record last season, he'd probably still be the head coach. If Luke Walton had a winning record in '19, he would probably have been the head coach in 2020. It's the current reading on the barometer that matters most, unless you're someone like Greg Popovich or unless you've got significant extenuating circumstances like Steve Kerr. |
"Reading on the barometer" is subjective. There's a good chance we miss the playin and end up with a losing record. What is the criteria for getting fired as a Laker coach? It's happened so often. I while back, I posted data that showed that Laker coaches, on average, last 2.5 seasons before they are let go. I think that data is the elusive barometer. Make or miss the playoffs, I say Mr. Ham is on the hotplate after next season. Again, Vogel won the NBA finals and had the Lakers up 2-1 in the 1st round of the playoffs, and then the following year, he was canned. |
Being fired has little to do with the quality of a coach and a lot to deal with the variables they can’t control. The coach doesn’t control the biggest variable of whether the team will have success which is who is on the roster. This isn’t to say a coach never performs poorly or never deserved a firing. However, our coaching carousel has a lot more to do with the shortcomings of our management than the HC. Outside of the players, the coach is the face of the team and gets blamed for anything bad that happens. The next GM that fires themselves for poor performance will be the first.
With Vogel, he paid the price for the Westbrook debacle. Ham gets some deserved credit for convincing him to take a bench role but that didn’t really make much of a difference in the long run. It doesn’t sound like the Lakers were ever that high on Vogel. They picked his staff and lowballed him on his deal and only gave him an insulting 1 year extension after winning a championship. If Ham doesn’t show year to year progress he’ll get canned because Pelinka and Co. will need to provide a scalp and they’re going to point with their index finger rather than their thumb. It won’t necessarily be Ham’s fault. He’s had the team playing hard all year even when they stunk which had put us in the position we are in to make a push now that the roster has been better sorted out. |
The barometer should be multiple factors.
1. How to maximize your talents, put them in consistent roles
2. Create system to utilize your player strength and hide their weakness.
3. Having good rotation and understanding momentum of each game
4. Boost player moral and play hard
The result usually follows, but you must look at those factors when determining a coach, not by just w or l
So far Ham is only good at one of those, which is boosting moral.
But he sucks really really bad at 1, 2, 3, 4
He is so bad in term of 3 that sometimes it seems like he is sabotaging our chance to win on purpose.
Not saying he is doing it on purpose, but he is just so bad. |
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