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Nash Vegas Star Player
Joined: 01 Sep 2012 Posts: 7240
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Posted: Sun Jun 04, 2023 7:36 pm Post subject: If Vogel was coaching 2023 WCF Lakers vs Nuggets… |
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Just wondering. Would the outcome still be the same? Lakers get swept? Or would Lakers make it a series? Or would Lakers have won?
Most of the criticism during the WCF was placed on Ham deciding to play small ball starting in Game 1, and throughout the series. Ham did make some adjustments like closing the games with Rui, but some other adjustments just came too little too late like not playing Tristan and not benching Dlo until the final game.
Vogel in 2020 alternated playing small and big, he benched guys like Dwight and McGee during the Blazers, Rockets series going smaller even unleashing a rookie THT, but then alternated and played big extensively during the Nuggets and Heat. Would’ve Vogel made better adjustments than Ham? _________________ |
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Denny_Russo Star Player
Joined: 27 Jan 2016 Posts: 2781
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Posted: Sun Jun 04, 2023 8:00 pm Post subject: |
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Any team that has Lebron on it, everyone else gets the blame. _________________ Yi Jianlian Fanboy. Respect The Chair.
Starting anew. I'm retiring my main. |
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Great One Star Player
Joined: 24 Jun 2005 Posts: 3174 Location: Girl I'm Back in Spanish Town
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Posted: Sun Jun 04, 2023 8:03 pm Post subject: Re: If Vogel was coaching 2023 WCF Lakers vs Nuggets… |
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I’m not going to answer the question because its an impossible one to answer. However, Vogel did out coach malone and spolestra convincingly in a 7 game series, we haven’t seen Lebron nor AD been utilized similarly since they one a chip against those two teams/coaches _________________ "Nobody hates the good ones. They hate the great ones." - KB |
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dont_be_a_wuss Franchise Player
Joined: 29 Mar 2012 Posts: 21563
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Posted: Sun Jun 04, 2023 8:05 pm Post subject: |
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Lakers would’ve won easily with Vogel as coach |
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hype Star Player
Joined: 19 Nov 2007 Posts: 4387 Location: Lake Nacimiento
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Posted: Sun Jun 04, 2023 8:06 pm Post subject: Re: If Vogel was coaching 2023 WCF Lakers vs Nuggets… |
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Nash Vegas wrote: | Just wondering. Would the outcome still be the same? Lakers get swept? Or would Lakers make it a series? Or would Lakers have won?
Most of the criticism during the WCF was placed on Ham deciding to play small ball starting in Game 1, and throughout the series. Ham did make some adjustments like closing the games with Rui, but some other adjustments just came too little too late like not playing Tristan and not benching Dlo until the final game.
Vogel in 2020 alternated playing small and big, he benched guys like Dwight and McGee during the Blazers, Rockets series going smaller even unleashing a rookie THT, but then alternated and played big extensively during the Nuggets and Heat. Would’ve Vogel made better adjustments than Ham? |
If we had either McGee or Howard especially we probably make it a much better series regardless of coach imo.. Also, are we talking the full coaching staff from 2020 or afterwards? Vogel never looked remotely as good at making adjustments once that Championship staff was broken up. On top of that, Vogel also clearly lost the team with all the Westbrook drama mixed with a lot of losing.
If we're talking the full 2020 Staff then I say there would be a clear advantage but other then that i'm not sure much changes at all between the two.
Sadly, I think Denver beats us regardless but with a couple changes we could have def. at least made it a longer Series and anything could happen at that point. |
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Halflife Franchise Player
Joined: 15 Aug 2015 Posts: 17051
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Posted: Sun Jun 04, 2023 8:06 pm Post subject: Re: If Vogel was coaching 2023 WCF Lakers vs Nuggets… |
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Great One wrote: | I’m not going to answer the question because its an impossible one to answer. However, Vogel did out coach malone and spolestra convincingly in a 7 game series, we haven’t seen Lebron nor AD been utilized similarly since they one a chip against those two teams/coaches |
Lol. Are you referring to the bubble? _________________ Kobe.
https://www.instagram.com/reel/Clw9scopegx/?igshid=YmMyMTA2M2Y= |
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Lakesh0wtime Star Player
Joined: 28 Mar 2016 Posts: 5382
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Posted: Sun Jun 04, 2023 8:08 pm Post subject: Re: If Vogel was coaching 2023 WCF Lakers vs Nuggets… |
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Halflife wrote: | Great One wrote: | I’m not going to answer the question because its an impossible one to answer. However, Vogel did out coach malone and spolestra convincingly in a 7 game series, we haven’t seen Lebron nor AD been utilized similarly since they one a chip against those two teams/coaches |
Lol. Are you referring to the bubble? |
Did Spo and Malone’s brains not work in the bubble or? |
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kikanga Retired Number
Joined: 15 Sep 2012 Posts: 29542 Location: La La Land
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Posted: Sun Jun 04, 2023 8:28 pm Post subject: |
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With the roster we had this year.
It wouldn't have been a good match for Vogel.
I guess Troy Brown Jr. would've got more run.
DLO probably would've been cut out of the rotation long before the playoffs.
Now Vogel with a roster like the one we had in 2020. For sure, we would beat Denver, again. _________________ "Every hurt is a lesson, and every lesson makes you better” |
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ducasse Star Player
Joined: 05 Sep 2002 Posts: 8375
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Posted: Sun Jun 04, 2023 10:49 pm Post subject: |
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The 2020 team had a better roster than the 2023 team and the top two players weren't playing with foot injuries. Vogel had more to work with. |
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wolfpaclaker Retired Number
Joined: 29 May 2002 Posts: 58398
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Posted: Mon Jun 05, 2023 3:08 am Post subject: |
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I think Vogel was a lot better a coach than many so called "elite" coaches. I thought the job he did from 2019-2021 was as good as any coach would have done in the NBA, even Phil. Look at the situations, and what he had to work with, and look at the records. 21-22 was a disaster, but as we saw with WB the season after (22-23) it can be solely put on the way the roster was made up and WB's toxic chemistry with AD/Bron.
That said, I thought Ham did a solid solid job this season. Once WB was traded. It seemed all Ham needed was to be free of WB and those old guys (beverly too). Once we gave Ham some young guys that can move, and depth, not only our defense became better, our team begen to resemble much more of the team that was playing well under Vogel from 2019-21. I really liked this team post-trade deadline.
It remains to be seen if Ham is a championship level coach, but no I don't think Vogel in place of Ham automatically means we end up having a better season. The issue with this year's team was our lack of size inside/defense to help AD, as well as a defensive guard we could rely on for long stretches of a game. This roster needs a Dwight Howard circa 2019, and a Caruso/KCP type to go with the talent they already have. That's not on Ham. Pelinka is still the main problem here. I don't think he has a sound vision and plan on how to win around AD/Bron. |
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giordan0 Star Player
Joined: 05 Jan 2016 Posts: 1020
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Posted: Mon Jun 05, 2023 3:44 am Post subject: |
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dont_be_a_wuss wrote: | Lakers would’ve won easily with Vogel as coach |
meathead 3-guard lineup in shambles |
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J.C. Smith Franchise Player
Joined: 23 Jun 2005 Posts: 12693
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Posted: Mon Jun 05, 2023 4:50 am Post subject: |
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It's impossible to know. And it's also contingent on what is the other staff? Vogel by himself? Or Vogel with Kidd and Hollins on the bench with him, with input from Rondo? It's hard to separate how much of that coaching staff was Vogel, and how much it was the collection of talent.
I tend to think Vogel is a good coach though, he was a solid coach in Indiana, as well. He wasn't as impressive in Orlando or with Westbrook. We'll see what he can do with the talent in Phoenix.
I also don't think Ham is a bad coach. He's inexperienced, but the Lakers made some good adjustments over the course of the playoffs. I don't think coaching was the issue for them this season. |
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LakersRGolden Star Player
Joined: 13 Jan 2002 Posts: 7936 Location: Lake Forest
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Posted: Mon Jun 05, 2023 5:18 am Post subject: |
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If we magically swap in Vogel right before game one, I think we win game one. I don't think we have good enough perimeter players to say much else changes. |
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Halflife Franchise Player
Joined: 15 Aug 2015 Posts: 17051
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Posted: Mon Jun 05, 2023 9:22 am Post subject: Re: If Vogel was coaching 2023 WCF Lakers vs Nuggets… |
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Lakesh0wtime wrote: | Halflife wrote: | Great One wrote: | I’m not going to answer the question because its an impossible one to answer. However, Vogel did out coach malone and spolestra convincingly in a 7 game series, we haven’t seen Lebron nor AD been utilized similarly since they one a chip against those two teams/coaches |
Lol. Are you referring to the bubble? |
Did Spo and Malone’s brains not work in the bubble or? |
they did. AND they work without it. us? not so much. _________________ Kobe.
https://www.instagram.com/reel/Clw9scopegx/?igshid=YmMyMTA2M2Y= |
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Theseus Franchise Player
Joined: 15 Dec 2007 Posts: 14318
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Posted: Mon Jun 05, 2023 10:43 am Post subject: |
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I thought the Lakers weren't ready defensively for a couple of games there. I didn't like the strategy of helping off of knockdown shooters like KCP in favor of helping against Jokic in the post.
I thought the gameplan should have been make Jokic a scorer while focusing on their shooters. We didn't do that, and I feel like Vogel would have.
I don't know that we would have done better though in terms of actually winning. |
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tox Franchise Player
Joined: 16 Nov 2015 Posts: 17937
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Posted: Mon Jun 05, 2023 10:53 am Post subject: |
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We win a game or two imo. But I'm not sure with Vogel we make it to the WCF. Was never a fan of his offensive schemes. |
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epic_ Franchise Player
Joined: 23 Jan 2020 Posts: 11310
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Posted: Tue Jun 06, 2023 7:18 am Post subject: |
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Vogel's offense doesn't get us to the WCF imo.
We don't talk about it much, but we should be grateful Avery Bradley didn't join the bubble. Coach would have played AB over Rondo or KCP. _________________ 💜💛 🏆 👀 🍖 #18!!! |
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LakerDYnasty72 Star Player
Joined: 18 Jul 2006 Posts: 4581
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Posted: Tue Jun 06, 2023 7:31 am Post subject: Re: If Vogel was coaching 2023 WCF Lakers vs Nuggets… |
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Nash Vegas wrote: | Just wondering. Would the outcome still be the same? Lakers get swept? Or would Lakers make it a series? Or would Lakers have won?
Most of the criticism during the WCF was placed on Ham deciding to play small ball starting in Game 1, and throughout the series. Ham did make some adjustments like closing the games with Rui, but some other adjustments just came too little too late like not playing Tristan and not benching Dlo until the final game.
Vogel in 2020 alternated playing small and big, he benched guys like Dwight and McGee during the Blazers, Rockets series going smaller even unleashing a rookie THT, but then alternated and played big extensively during the Nuggets and Heat. Would’ve Vogel made better adjustments than Ham? |
If we pretend that the 2023 team as presently constructed is the team Vogel would be coaching vs. Denver in the playoffs, I believe he would have had enough awareness to try to get as much size as possible against Jokic.
He would have played Bamba, if he were available, against Denver. With that size, AD the rover, and some strategically timed double teams coming from different angles, we could have been a lot more competitive. |
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Aeneas Hunter Retired Number
Joined: 12 Jul 2005 Posts: 31763
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Posted: Tue Jun 06, 2023 8:11 am Post subject: Re: If Vogel was coaching 2023 WCF Lakers vs Nuggets… |
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Nash Vegas wrote: | Most of the criticism during the WCF was placed on Ham deciding to play small ball starting in Game 1, and throughout the series. Ham did make some adjustments like closing the games with Rui, but some other adjustments just came too little too late like not playing Tristan and not benching Dlo until the final game. |
Contrary to what a lot of people think, the Russell/Schroder/Reaves lineup was actually an effective lineup in the playoffs and had a positive +/- for the playoffs as a whole, even though it did badly against the Nuggets. I doubt that Vogel would have started the series with that lineup, but it's not as obvious as it appears in hindsight. As I've written elsewhere, the lineup choices are dictated by the roster construction.
The most obvious alternative was Russell/Reaves/Vanderbilt, but that one also did badly against the Nuggets. Russell/Reaves/Hachimura was even worse than Russell/Schroder/Reaves. Basically, anything with Russell did badly in the series. Would Vogel have foreseen this? I doubt it. _________________ Internet Argument Resolved |
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SGV-Laker fan Star Player
Joined: 23 May 2013 Posts: 8938
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Posted: Tue Jun 06, 2023 8:49 am Post subject: |
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grass is always greener on the other side. Vogel commands no respect from the players, and that's the bottom line. X's and O's means nothing if players have tuned you out. |
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Lakesh0wtime Star Player
Joined: 28 Mar 2016 Posts: 5382
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Posted: Tue Jun 06, 2023 8:50 am Post subject: |
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SGV-Laker fan wrote: | grass is always greener on the other side. Vogel commands no respect from the players, and that's the bottom line. X's and O's means nothing if players have tuned you out. |
Russ caused that. |
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ocho Retired Number
Joined: 24 May 2005 Posts: 53953
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Posted: Tue Jun 06, 2023 8:57 am Post subject: Re: If Vogel was coaching 2023 WCF Lakers vs Nuggets… |
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Aeneas Hunter wrote: | Nash Vegas wrote: | Most of the criticism during the WCF was placed on Ham deciding to play small ball starting in Game 1, and throughout the series. Ham did make some adjustments like closing the games with Rui, but some other adjustments just came too little too late like not playing Tristan and not benching Dlo until the final game. |
Contrary to what a lot of people think, the Russell/Schroder/Reaves lineup was actually an effective lineup in the playoffs and had a positive +/- for the playoffs as a whole, even though it did badly against the Nuggets. I doubt that Vogel would have started the series with that lineup, but it's not as obvious as it appears in hindsight. As I've written elsewhere, the lineup choices are dictated by the roster construction.
The most obvious alternative was Russell/Reaves/Vanderbilt, but that one also did badly against the Nuggets. Russell/Reaves/Hachimura was even worse than Russell/Schroder/Reaves. Basically, anything with Russell did badly in the series. Would Vogel have foreseen this? I doubt it. |
He’d have played Avery Bradley 42 minutes. _________________ 14-5-3-12 |
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Halflife Franchise Player
Joined: 15 Aug 2015 Posts: 17051
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Posted: Tue Jun 06, 2023 9:06 am Post subject: |
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Lakesh0wtime wrote: | SGV-Laker fan wrote: | grass is always greener on the other side. Vogel commands no respect from the players, and that's the bottom line. X's and O's means nothing if players have tuned you out. |
Russ caused that. |
the leaders tuned him out. If bron/ad wanted frank, frank is still here. _________________ Kobe.
https://www.instagram.com/reel/Clw9scopegx/?igshid=YmMyMTA2M2Y= |
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Lakesh0wtime Star Player
Joined: 28 Mar 2016 Posts: 5382
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Posted: Tue Jun 06, 2023 9:29 am Post subject: |
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Halflife wrote: | Lakesh0wtime wrote: | SGV-Laker fan wrote: | grass is always greener on the other side. Vogel commands no respect from the players, and that's the bottom line. X's and O's means nothing if players have tuned you out. |
Russ caused that. |
the leaders tuned him out. If bron/ad wanted frank, frank is still here. |
You don’t think Russ had any contribution to it at all? |
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Halflife Franchise Player
Joined: 15 Aug 2015 Posts: 17051
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Posted: Tue Jun 06, 2023 9:44 am Post subject: |
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Lakesh0wtime wrote: | Halflife wrote: | Lakesh0wtime wrote: | SGV-Laker fan wrote: | grass is always greener on the other side. Vogel commands no respect from the players, and that's the bottom line. X's and O's means nothing if players have tuned you out. |
Russ caused that. |
the leaders tuned him out. If bron/ad wanted frank, frank is still here. |
You don’t think Russ had any contribution to it at all? |
I didn't say that. But we know they had the power. they brought russ in. Russ didn't have power. They were trying to move him. If bron and AD wanted frank he would still be here. They like everyone else quit on him. The only guys that didn't were reaves and a couple others.
Fortunately for Miami, they didn't fire Spoelstra like Bron wanted. _________________ Kobe.
https://www.instagram.com/reel/Clw9scopegx/?igshid=YmMyMTA2M2Y= |
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